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Overnight NYCT/MTA Bus service

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I am fully aware that the (MTA) is still in middle of a budget crisis? However with recent putbacks i.e X37/38 the SW Brooklyn-Midtown Super express, there are signs that very soon the (MTA) maybe looking again to restore a few more of the service cuts and even add some long overdue new bus lines.

 

My question is that I have always wondered how come several bus lines such as the "BXM7" Coop City (BX1) (BX3) (BX7) in the Bronx, the (M5)in Manhattan, (B9) (B45) (B49) (B83) in Brooklyn, the (S79) (X1) in Staten Island and the

(Q53) (Q66) in Queens among others do not run overnights?

 

 

Yet some routes that may not need to run overnight such as the (B25) (B47) (B52) in Brooklyn, (M79) (M101/102)in Manhattan runs all night. Can someone please explain?

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I wouldn't get too optimistic. The X37/X38 put back occurred from community pressure, and since the cost to do so was minimal they restored it. Quite frankly the X1 should run 24/7, but I don't think the (MTA) wants to open up a can of worms at the moment because then other communities would want 24/7 express bus service (i.e. Riverdale LOL).

 

When and if SBS service is rolled out on the (S79), maybe they'll provide 24/7 service. I don't see the (B9) getting usage to justify 24/7 service to be honest. When I lived in Midwood and took it, it was never packed. The (M5) should have 24/7 coverage, but I think the (MTA) would prefer folks to use the subway, hence one of the reasons I think they killed the (M6). The (B49) should have 24/7 service, but I'm not sure why it doesn't. Ocean Avenue is an important artery in Southern and Mid Brooklyn. The (B25) was discussed in another thread. I disagree about the (M79), (M101) and (M102). The (M79) is well used and should have 24/7 service. It is just as important as the (M23) and (M14) buses for Yorkville, Upper East Side and Upper West Side residents and folks like myself who shop and eat up there. The (M101) (M102) should have it for basic network coverage. The others I can't really speak on.

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I am fully aware that the (MTA) is still in middle of a budget crisis. However with recent putbacks i.e X37/38 the SW Brooklyn-Midtown Super express, there are signs that very soon the (MTA) maybe looking again to restore a few more of the service cuts and even add some long overdue new bus lines.

 

My question is that I have always wondered how come several bus lines such as the "BXM7" Coop City (Bx1) (Bx3) (Bx7) in the Bronx, the (M5) in Manhattan, (B9) (B45) (B49) (B83) in Brooklyn, the (S79) X1 in Staten Island and the

(Q53) (Q66) in Queens among others do not run overnights?

 

 

Yet some routes that may not need to run overnight such as the (B25) (B47) (B52) in Brooklyn, (M79) (M101)/(M102)in Manhattan runs all night. Can someone please explain?

The (Q66) does have overnight service. The (Bx7) has overnight service, but as far south as 207 St (A). What about the routes that had owl service, but were stripped of it last June because of the cuts?

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I am fully aware that the (MTA) is still in middle of a budget crisis? However with recent putbacks i.e X37/38 the SW Brooklyn-Midtown Super express, there are signs that very soon the (MTA) maybe looking again to restore a few more of the service cuts and even add some long overdue new bus lines.

 

My question is that I have always wondered how come several bus lines such as the "BXM7" Coop City (BX1) (BX3) (BX7) in the Bronx, the (M5)in Manhattan, (B9) (B45) (B49) (B83) in Brooklyn, the (S79) (X1) in Staten Island and the

(Q53) (Q66) in Queens among others do not run overnights?

 

 

Yet some routes that may not need to run overnight such as the (B25) (B47) (B52) in Brooklyn, (M79) (M101/102)in Manhattan runs all night. Can someone please explain?

 

x1 & x10 should run 24/7/365. x17 should run 7 days.

 

79 & 59 should run 24/7/365. Richmond Ave effed during the overnight of local bus service.

 

I wouldn't get too optimistic. The X37/X38 put back occurred from community pressure, and since the cost to do so was minimal they restored it. Quite frankly the X1 should run 24/7, but I don't think the (MTA) wants to open up a can of worms at the moment because then other communities would want 24/7 express bus service (i.e. Riverdale LOL).

 

When and if SBS service is rolled out on the (S79), maybe they'll provide 24/7 service. I don't see the (B9) getting usage to justify 24/7 service to be honest. When I lived in Midwood and took it, it was never packed. The (M5) should have 24/7 coverage, but I think the (MTA) would prefer folks to use the subway, hence one of the reasons I think they killed the (M6). The (B49) should have 24/7 service, but I'm not sure why it doesn't. Ocean Avenue is an important artery in Southern and Mid Brooklyn. The (B25) was discussed in another thread. I disagree about the (M79), (M101) and (M102). The (M79) is well used and should have 24/7 service. It is just as important as the (M23) and (M14) buses for Yorkville, Upper East Side and Upper West Side residents and folks like myself who shop and eat up there. The (M101) (M102) should have it for basic network coverage. The others I can't really speak on.

 

24/7/365 x1 service is a necessity.

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I am fully aware that the MTA is still in middle of a budget crisis? However with recent putbacks i.e X37/38 the SW Brooklyn-Midtown Super express, there are signs that very soon the MTA maybe looking again to restore a few more of the service cuts and even add some long overdue new bus lines.

 

My question is that I have always wondered how come several bus lines such as the "BXM7" Coop City BX1 BX3 BX7 in the Bronx, the M5 in Manhattan, B9 B45 B49 (B83) in Brooklyn, the S79 (X1) in Staten Island and the

Q53 (Q66) in Queens among others do not run overnights?

 

 

Yet some routes that may not need to run overnight such as the (B25) (B47) B52 in Brooklyn, M79 (M101/102)in Manhattan runs all night. Can someone please explain?

 

The Bx3 used to have 24/7 service, but it was taken away in 1995.

Here is what I think may be the logic for some routes not having overnight service (not that I necessarily agree with them)

BxM7 alternative: (2) or (5) to the Bx28.

Bx1 alternative: (Q) train

Bx3 alternative: Bx36 (that was what they said when they eliminated it)

Bx7 alternative: (1) to Bx10

M5 alternative: (1) and (N)(Q) trains

B9: Low ridership

B45: Low ridership (Less than 45 passengers per night)

B49 alternative: B44, B68, (Q) train

S79 alternative: S78 to S53

Q53 alternative: Q11

 

I wouldn't get too optimistic. The X37/X38 put back occurred from community pressure, and since the cost to do so was minimal they restored it. Quite frankly the X1 should run 24/7, but I don't think the (MTA) wants to open up a can of worms at the moment because then other communities would want 24/7 express bus service (i.e. Riverdale LOL).

 

When and if SBS service is rolled out on the (S79), maybe they'll provide 24/7 service. I don't see the B9 getting usage to justify 24/7 service to be honest. When I lived in Midwood and took it, it was never packed. The (M5) should have 24/7 coverage, but I think the (MTA) would prefer folks to use the subway, hence one of the reasons I think they killed the (M6). The (B49) should have 24/7 service, but I'm not sure why it doesn't. Ocean Avenue is an important artery in Southern and Mid Brooklyn. The (B25) was discussed in another thread. I disagree about the (M79), (M101) and (M102). The (M79) is well used and should have 24/7 service. It is just as important as the (M23) and (M14) buses for Yorkville, Upper East Side and Upper West Side residents and folks like myself who shop and eat up there. The (M101) (M102) should have it for basic network coverage. The others I can't really speak on.

 

The M101, M102, and M103 aren’t for “basic network coverage” (If they were, they wouldn't have a combined headway of 20 minutes): They are ther because they have the ridership to support them (they are surrounded by the M2 and M15, so riders would still have a bus if the M101/102/103 were eliminated (not to mention, they have the (4)(6) trains below them every 10 minutes)

 

The Q66 does have overnight service. The Bx7 has overnight service, but as far south as 207 St (A). What about the routes that had owl service, but were stripped of it last June because of the cuts?

 

The "overnight service" only runs from 5AM to 6AM on the Bx7.

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The Bx3 used to have 24/7 service, but it was taken away in 1995.

Here is what I think may be the logic for some routes not having overnight service (not that I necessarily agree with them)

BxM7 alternative: (2) or (5) to the Bx28.

Bx1 alternative: (Q) train

Bx3 alternative: Bx36 (that was what they said when they eliminated it)

Bx7 alternative: (1) to Bx10

M5 alternative: (1) and (N)(Q) trains

B9: Low ridership

B45: Low ridership (Less than 45 passengers per night)

B49 alternative: B44, B68, (Q) train

S79 alternative: S78 to S53

Q53 alternative: Q11

 

 

 

The M101, M102, and M103 aren’t for “basic network coverage” (If they were, they wouldn't have a combined headway of 20 minutes): They are ther because they have the ridership to support them (they are surrounded by the M2 and M15, so riders would still have a bus if the M101/102/103 were eliminated (not to mention, they have the (4)(6) trains below them every 10 minutes)

 

 

 

The "overnight service" only runs from 5AM to 6AM on the Bx7.

 

I wish folks would start reading... Where did I say that the (M101) (M102) was for basic network coverage??? In any event like you said they have the ridership to support them and that's the point. Aside from that the (M15) doesn't go where the (M101) and (M102) go anyway and the (M2) couldn't handle all of that traffic, esp. since they don't have artics. That's the reason that the headways are spread out otherwise they would be running more buses.

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I wish folks would start reading... Where did I say that the (M101) (M102) was for basic network coverage??? In any event like you said they have the ridership to support them and that's the point. Aside from that the (M15) doesn't go where the (M101) and (M102) go anyway and the (M2) couldn't handle all of that traffic, esp. since they don't have artics. That's the reason that the headways are spread out otherwise they would be running more buses.

 

It was the second to last sentence: The (M101)(M102) should have it for basic network coverage.

 

The (M15) is somewhat of an alternate, if your trip is entirely within the East Side: The problem is that the crosstown buses run infrequently at night (so going from, say the UES to Washington Heights would be hard)

 

The M101/102/103 are spread out because it makes logical sense: If you have 3 buses running every 60 minutes each, you might as well make them run every 20 minutes, to provide a decent headway (at night, buses don't get crowded to the point where they start flagging people, so there is no advantage in having them bunch up)

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It was the second to last sentence: The (M101)(M102) should have it for basic network coverage.

 

The (M15) is somewhat of an alternate, if your trip is entirely within the East Side: The problem is that the crosstown buses run infrequently at night (so going from, say the UES to Washington Heights would be hard)

 

The M101/102/103 are spread out because it makes logical sense: If you have 3 buses running every 60 minutes each, you might as well make them run every 20 minutes, to provide a decent headway (at night, buses don't get crowded to the point where they start flagging people, so there is no advantage in having them bunch up)

 

Yeah, I said, "should", but I was referring to demand and basic network coverage. Besides, demand and network coverage go hand and hand in this case because cutting the (M101) (M102) and (M103) would be ridiculous. The (M15) would be crushloaded, so yes, it is needed for basic network coverage and the (4)(5)(6) is packed to capacity as it is. If you want to technical, yes the (M15) could be an alternative in terms of proximity, but that's about it.

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Yeah, I said, "should", but I was referring to demand and basic network coverage. Besides, demand and network coverage go hand and hand in this case because cutting the (M101) (M102) and (M103) would be ridiculous. The (M15) would be crushloaded, so yes, it is needed for basic network coverage and the (4)(5)(6) is packed to capacity as it is. If you want to technical, yes the (M15) could be an alternative in terms of proximity, but that's about it.

 

Hold on. Are we still talking about overnight service? The (4)(5)(6) are only packed to capacity during rush hours. Other times, they are crowded, but not to capacity.

 

Amd if the M101/102/103 were eliminated at night, the MTA would have to increase M15 service so it wouldn't be crushloaded.

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Hold on. Are we still talking about overnight service? The (4)(5)(6) are only packed to capacity during rush hours. Other times, they are crowded, but not to capacity.

 

Amd if the M101/102/103 were eliminated at night, the MTA would have to increase M15 service so it wouldn't be crushloaded.

 

You should've clarified when you said "eliminated". I thought you meant eliminated entirely, not just overnight service. In that case, yeah you could eliminate those lines for overnight service, but the (M15) as you said would have to run more frequently, not to mention the inconvenience of transferring, etc.

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The Bx3 used to have 24/7 service, but it was taken away in 1995.

Here is what I think may be the logic for some routes not having overnight service (not that I necessarily agree with them)

BxM7 alternative: (2) or (5) to the Bx28.

Bx1 alternative: (Q) train

Bx3 alternative: Bx36 (that was what they said when they eliminated it)

Bx7 alternative: (1) to Bx10

M5 alternative: (1) and (N)(Q) trains

B9: Low ridership

B45: Low ridership (Less than 45 passengers per night)

B49 alternative: B44, B68, (Q) train

S79 alternative: S78 to S53

Q53 alternative: Q11

 

For the Bx3, the Bx36 covers it south of Tremont Av, but north of it, the (4) is nearby. However, University Avenue is uphill from Jerome Avenue.

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The Bx3 used to have 24/7 service, but it was taken away in 1995.

Here is what I think may be the logic for some routes not having overnight service (not that I necessarily agree with them)

BxM7 alternative: (2) or (5) to the Bx28.

Bx1 alternative: (Q) train

Bx3 alternative: Bx36 (that was what they said when they eliminated it)This is what I was talking about when the (MTA) said that they were cutting service where not too many people are affected

Bx7 alternative: (1) to Bx10

M5 alternative: (1) and (N)(Q) trains

B9: Low ridership

B45: Low ridership (Less than 45 passengers per night)

B49 alternative: B44, B68, (Q) train

S79 alternative: S78 to S53

Q53 alternative: Q11

 

You made some mistakes:

BxM7 alternative-(4) to Kingsbridge Rd then (Bx28)

(Bx1) alternative-(D) train

(Bx3) alternative-(Bx36) up until Tremont-University or (A) to 168 St then (1)

(M5) alternatives-(M15) to (L) then (A) or 1 to the A

(B9)- Late night service ends at Flatbush Av.

(B49)-I'd say the closest alternative is the (Q) train. The B44 and the B68 are long distances from Ocean Av

(Q53) alternatives- The (Q11) is only available from Queens Ctr to Pitkin Av. For Rockaway Park, Q11 to Liberty then (A) to Broad Channel then (S). For Woodside, Q11 to Queens Blvd, (E) to Roosevelt then (7) to 61 St

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You made some mistakes:

BxM7 alternative-(4) to Kingsbridge Rd then (Bx28)

(Bx1) alternative-(D) train

(Bx3) alternative-(Bx36) up until Tremont-University or (A) to 168 St then (1)

(M5) alternatives-(M15) to (L) then (A) or 1 to the A

(B9)- Late night service ends at Flatbush Av.

(B49)-I'd say the closest alternative is the (Q) train. The B44 and the B68 are long distances from Ocean Av

(Q53) alternatives- The (Q11) is only available from Queens Ctr to Pitkin Av. For Rockaway Park, Q11 to Liberty then (A) to Broad Channel then (S). For Woodside, Q11 to Queens Blvd, (E) to Roosevelt then (7) to 61 St

 

 

Correction Q43. The best alternative for most of COOP City is taking the (6) to Pelham Bay and transfer to the BX12 Local. Or for a small portion of Coop the other is taking the (2) to Gun Hill and transfer to the BX28.

 

On the Q53, the alternatives sucks for those in the Rockaways without a car late at night. Plus the (A) Rockaway branch is always under "GO's and thus another reason IMO, the (Q53) should have hourly service overnights between at least Queens Center Mall/Woodhaven & Queens blvd and Rockaway Park. With running the Q53, you can even end the useless Rockaway Park (S) at height of overnight between 130-5am.

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You should've clarified when you said "eliminated". I thought you meant eliminated entirely, not just overnight service. In that case, yeah you could eliminate those lines for overnight service, but the M15 as you said would have to run more frequently, not to mention the inconvenience of transferring, etc.

 

I thought it was clear by the fact that we are talking about overnight service.

 

Even then, I don't think they should be eliminated.

 

For the Bx3, the Bx36 covers it south of Tremont Av, but north of it, the (4) is nearby. However, University Avenue is uphill from Jerome Avenue.

 

That's why I didn't mention the (4), because I know that that part of the Bronx is very hilly.

 

You made some mistakes:

BxM7 alternative-(4) to Kingsbridge Rd then (Bx28)

(Bx1) alternative-(D) train

(Bx3) alternative-(Bx36) up until Tremont-University or (A) to 168 St then (1)

(M5) alternatives-M15 to (L) then (A) or 1 to the A

(B9)- Late night service ends at Flatbush Av.

(B49)-I'd say the closest alternative is the (Q) train. The B44 and the B68 are long distances from Ocean Av

Q53 alternatives- The Q11 is only available from Queens Ctr to Pitkin Av. For Rockaway Park, Q11 to Liberty then (A) to Broad Channel then (S). For Woodside, Q11 to Queens Blvd, (E) to Roosevelt then (7) to 61 St

 

BxM7: That's possible, but it is faster to take a train that goes further east (Riders can take the (2) to Gun Hill Road, or transfer at East 180th Street to the (5), and then take the Bx28, which goes all the way around Co-Op City).

 

I see what you're saying, though: The BxM7 goes on the East Side, and so does the (4).

 

M5: Most people aren't intending on riding the full length of the route, so if the subway isn't an alternative, the M15, M103, M104, and M101.

 

Bx3: Most people wouldn't ride the bus from 168th Street to 238th Street when the (1) is more direct.

 

The B44 and B68 are 1/2 mile in either direction from the B49, which is walkable.

 

You're right. Riders can also take the Q60 to travel along Queens Blvd.

 

Correction Q43. The best alternative for most of COOP City is taking the (6) to Pelham Bay and transfer to the BX12 Local. Or for a small portion of Coop the other is taking the (2) to Gun Hill and transfer to the BX28.

 

On the Q53, the alternatives sucks for those in the Rockaways without a car late at night. Plus the (A) Rockaway branch is always under "GO's and thus another reason IMO, the (Q53) should have hourly service overnights between at least Queens Center Mall/Woodhaven & Queens blvd and Rockaway Park. With running the Q53, you can even end the useless Rockaway Park (S) at height of overnight between 130-5am.

 

The Bx28 serves more of Co-Op City than the Bx12.

 

20 minute headways on the Rockaway Park Shuttle are better than 60 minute headways on a bus.

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I thought it was clear by the fact that we are talking about overnight service.

 

Even then, I don't think they should be eliminated.

 

 

I can never be sure with you. :P

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That's why I didn't mention the (4) , because I know that that part of the Bronx is very hilly.

 

Bx3: Most people wouldn't ride the bus from 168th Street to 238th Street when the (1) is more direct.

 

 

You also can't get to most of where the Bx3 serves from the (4) past Kingsbridge without walking around the Reservoir. A lot of people do ride the Bx3 from the GWB where it starts, up towards Ft Independence St, a one seat ride beats the train and getting on the BX3 anyway. IMO, the main reason for why the service got cut is because after about 130-2am, most of the areas it runs through are dead. No one uses 238 St late nights. It should at least run S/B until 1:45 like the northbound however.

 

I don't feel like the Q30 service should have been cut because it leaves a huge stretch of East Queens without bus service. Bad enough the Q31 barely runs and comes at the same time as the 30. Its a long walk to the 12 or 46

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The Bx28 serves more of Co-Op City than the Bx12.

 

20 minute headways on the Rockaway Park Shuttle are better than 60 minute headways on a bus.

In this case, let the (Q53) run every 30 minutes from Queens Ctr to Rockaway Park then overnights

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In this case, let the (Q53) run every 30 minutes from Queens Ctr to Rockaway Park then overnights

 

I suggested every hour for the (Q53)making all stops along Cross Bay/Woodhaven so that the Q11 could also run every hour between Queens Center and Pitkin. It would make the Cross Bay/Woodhaven coordior similar to Lex/3rd or 1st and 2nd Ave coordiors with bus service overnights at least every 30 minutes.

 

 

If the (Q53)did run every 30 minutes, then you might as well end (Q11)overnight service.

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I suggested every hour for the (Q53)making all stops along Cross Bay/Woodhaven so that the Q11 could also run every hour between Queens Center and Pitkin. It would make the Cross Bay/Woodhaven coordior similar to Lex/3rd or 1st and 2nd Ave coordiors with bus service overnights at least every 30 minutes.

 

 

If the (Q53)did run every 30 minutes, then you might as well end (Q11)overnight service.

 

thats what Q21 is for

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thats what Q21 is for

 

The (Q21) does not run between appx. 11pm-6am. There no need for limited stop service overnights along Woodhaven/Cross Bay. Unless QJtrainmaster you want to run the (Q21) 24/7 and keep the Q53/Q11 as currently routed?

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The (Q21) does not run between appx. 11pm-6am. There no need for limited stop service overnights along Woodhaven/Cross Bay. Unless QJtrainmaster you want to run the (Q21) 24/7 and keep the Q53/Q11 as currently routed?

 

Also since the (3) now runs all night (at least to Times Sq.) I don't there is no longer a need for the (M102). Late Nights Lenox riders can use either the (M7) or the (3) and transfer to the (M101) at Lenox/125th.

 

I think the headways along Lex/3rd Ave could then become every 30 minutes overnights.

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Also since the (3) now runs all night (at least to Times Sq.) I don't there is no longer a need for the (M102). Late Nights Lenox riders can use either the (M7) or the (3) and transfer to the (M101) at Lenox/125th.

 

I think the headways along Lex/3rd Ave could then become every 30 minutes overnights.

 

My question is how well is the (M102) used overnight?

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Also since the (3) now runs all night (at least to Times Sq.) I don't think there is no longer a need for the (M102). Late Nights Lenox riders can use either the (M7) or the (3) and transfer to the (M101) at Lenox/125th.

 

I think the headways along Lex/3rd Ave could then become every 30 minutes overnights.

You know, in the doomsday cuts of 09, the (MTA) wanted to can overnight service on the (M102) and (M103). Let the East Siders have their direct access to Harlem, Some M101, 102 and 103 buses end at 96 St overnights

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Do you think NYC should institute a special system of routes to operate between 1AM and 5AM like Chicago does? The main point here is that since late night traffic is better and more consistent than daytime traffic, routes can be made longer without too much adverse affect on reliability. Then the night routes can be made to cover entire trunks, reducing passenger transfers, serving more areas, and requiring less buses than if 2 routes were to run. For example, in Manhattan, we can have one frequent route run up/down each avenue pair, plus straight crosstown service on key cross streets, rather than 3 separate infrequent routes. Especially in areas where buses are used for local, rather than feeder travel, this could work.

 

Riverdale has too much express bus service. Period. The x1 should run 24/7, I think the ridership will be there. Other routes, maybe not. Its ridership is way higher than the 2nd highest express bus route, IIRC.

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Toronto also has a similar overnight bus service called the 'blue or owl' network. However the Toronto subways are closed overnights while in Chicago, the CTA's Red and Blue lines runs every 30-60 minutes.

 

I think something like that could work in Manhattan. However for the rest of the outerboros, the current system works IMO>

 

 

Do you think NYC should institute a special system of routes to operate between 1AM and 5AM like Chicago does? The main point here is that since late night traffic is better and more consistent than daytime traffic, routes can be made longer without too much adverse affect on reliability. Then the night routes can be made to cover entire trunks, reducing passenger transfers, serving more areas, and requiring less buses than if 2 routes were to run. For example, in Manhattan, we can have one frequent route run up/down each avenue pair, plus straight crosstown service on key cross streets, rather than 3 separate infrequent routes. Especially in areas where buses are used for local, rather than feeder travel, this could work.

 

Riverdale has too much express bus service. Period. The x1 should run 24/7, I think the ridership will be there. Other routes, maybe not. Its ridership is way higher than the 2nd highest express bus route, IIRC.

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