Subway service to Aqueduct may get a boost, may even get Airtrain stop

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Yes. This is more than just about serving a casino, a potential convention center and Kennedy Airport. This isn't just about providing another commute to Midtown. Reviving the Rockaway Line will benefit people traveling between northern and southern Queens too. That's not an insignificant number of people.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Only issue is getting from Whitepot to the IND. Which street gets the nuke, lol.

 

Can't a portal be built south of Whitepot Junction? Subway trains to and from the Rockaway Line tunnel under the railroad and then hook into the already-built turnouts between 63rd Drive and 67th Avenue.

[Shortline Bus]

At the currently closed Aqueduct Raceway station under-construction is a passageway between the Racetrack and the Manhattan-bound side platform.

 

From the North Conduit-Aqueduct station the World Resort Casino runs a very short trip shuttle bus service to/from the Casino and this station. One simply leaves by the southern-most exit of the North Conduit-Aqueduct station to a waiting shuttle bus. Many casino goers however find that they can WALK the distance, estimated to be a 1/8 of a mile or less - in plain eye-sight, seems about like 2 city blocks.

 

Except for beefed up service on the A-train on the Far Rockaway A-trains, and maybe a direct passageway connection to/from the North Conduit-Aqueduct station, with a people mover, maybe - I'm not sure what really needs to be added. I'm not really sure of the merits of a new huge-mega-project convention center - considering the reading that I've done on such places. I kind of doubt the need for a whole new subway or LIRR line, let alone the huge costs of building such a line. Certainly A-train service could be beefed up - for example by running more 59th Street-Columbus Circle to Rockaway Park - type A-trains during the day-times, and weekends - could add to the service without the huge costs of a brand-new transit line.

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

 

Thank You Mike. I also been calling for expanded weekday (i.e 30-minute headways middays and for few hours summer weekends)on the (A)Rockaway Park branch. As i stated last summer (July 2011 on a Saturday)i was on a STANDING ROOM only Far Rockaway and ditto for a Beach 116th even with a full car shuttle connecting at Broad Channel.

 

Until the convention center is bulit/demand grows at the Adueduct, this is my proposal for what the should do right now.

 

Weekdays appx. 6am-8pm(including middays)

 

Expand Rockaway Park service weekdays to all day between Dyckman Street (new northbound terminal)and Beach 116th between 6am-8pm. Middays headways is every 24 minutes. Thus headways on the Rockaway branch is increased to every 12-15 minutes lunch time hours weekdays.

 

Weekday Rockaway park shuttle service is ended and reduced to weeknights/overnights and weekends only.

 

Summer weekends only Memorial Day-Labor Day(peak direction only)

 

(A)additional service runs between Dyckman and Rockaway Park Queens-Bound 8am-12 Noon(leaving Dyckman) with 30-minute headways

 

(A)leaves Beach 116th Dyckman-bound appx. 4-8pm with 30 minute headways.

 

Non-summer weekends

 

The current set-up with increased Far Rockaway service.

 

I am avoiding the Lefferts proposal(i.e extending the to Lefferts as it's an idea that been discussed to death)

 

Rockaway Park is reduced to running weekday evenings/nights appx. 8pm-6am and all times weekends.

 

reactions?

[Grand Concourse]

The is prone to delays. Granted yesterday was a saturday sched, the stopped at BC and left the station before a Far Rock showed up. Service has to be pretty bad if the shuttle had to leave BC empty before picking up riders getting off the arriving . What should be done with the extra (A)s are to short turn them at Howard Beach (which would need a siding track south of the station)

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Thank You Mike. I also been calling for expanded weekday (i.e 30-minute headways middays and for few hours summer weekends)on the (A)Rockaway Park branch. As i stated last summer (July 2011 on a Saturday)i was on a STANDING ROOM only Far Rockaway and ditto for a Beach 116th even with a full car shuttle connecting at Broad Channel.

 

Until the convention center is bulit/demand grows at the Adueduct, this is my proposal for what the should do right now.

 

Weekdays appx. 6am-8pm(including middays)

 

Expand Rockaway Park service weekdays to all day between Dyckman Street (new northbound terminal)and Beach 116th between 6am-8pm. Middays headways is every 24 minutes. Thus headways on the Rockaway branch is increased to every 12-15 minutes lunch time hours weekdays.

 

Weekday Rockaway park shuttle service is ended and reduced to weeknights/overnights and weekends only.

 

Summer weekends only Memorial Day-Labor Day(peak direction only)

 

(A)additional service runs between Dyckman and Rockaway Park Queens-Bound 8am-12 Noon(leaving Dyckman) with 30-minute headways

 

(A)leaves Beach 116th Dyckman-bound appx. 4-8pm with 30 minute headways.

 

Non-summer weekends

 

The current set-up with increased Far Rockaway service.

 

I am avoiding the Lefferts proposal(i.e extending the to Lefferts as it's an idea that been discussed to death)

 

Rockaway Park is reduced to running weekday evenings/nights appx. 8pm-6am and all times weekends.

 

reactions?

For right now, your proposal is a good one, but I wonder if the ridership to/from Rock Park is there for thru service on the during weekday non-rush hours, especially during the non-summer months?

[MikeGerald]

There is a good argument for beefed up service, even if there isn't a huge increase in ridership to Rockaway Park, but an increase in service useful for the Aqueduct Casino going crowd. A train line can have several purposes, in addition to servicing the folks that travel to the end of the line.

 

There are instances where the location of terminals is not always right near where they are "needed", and some places may get "more service" than is really needed. That is one reason why some IND trains ended at Second Avenue, even if that was not a popular destination, the train route served other needs.

 

The interesting problem for the A and C lines is the lack of useful terminals in Manhattan. In upper Manhattan there is the 168th Street, and 207th Street terminals, and maybe the Dyckman Street train yard lead tracks, however the first two of these facilities are claimed by regular running routes. The lower level of the 145th Street station is used by B-trains, 125th Street is out due to the cross-traffic needed, and the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal is no longer a terminal. Bringing trains from 71st Avenue, 179th Street, or Archer Avenue is kind of "overkill" for this project. Hosting a new train route is going to be interesting.

 

Considering the nature of NYC subway travel - I'm really not comfortable with waits of 30 minutes between trains, as suggested in the proposals. Twenty minute waits between trains was the standard "midnight hour" service - the lowest amount of service. As a resident of Staten Island where we regularly have 30 minute waits between boats - where missing a boat means by definition that you're late to your event or destination - 30 minute waits are NOT GOOD. These kinds of trips are not like taking an airplane ride, etc. but rather normal subway travel - which is supposed to be rapid, and where the trains are supposed to rapidly arrive. We do have to keep proposing to take the "rapid" out of rapid transit?

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

[TwoTimer]

Can't a portal be built south of Whitepot Junction? Subway trains to and from the Rockaway Line tunnel under the railroad and then hook into the already-built turnouts between 63rd Drive and 67th Avenue.

 

one of those side streets would still get a nuke...that exact explanation was what I was thinking. Just like sas as deep down as it is still impacting the community. When I mean nuke I didnt mean the street demapped, but the logistics of constructing a tunnel, albeit short.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Nycsubway.org says the westbound trackway begins (or ends) just past the east end of the 63rd Drive station and rises above the in-service tracks and ends just under the side of Queens Blvd. A connecting tunnel between the subway and the Rockaway line would have to be cut-and-cover, probably under 64th or 65th Ave.

[TwoTimer]

Nycsubway.org says the westbound trackway begins (or ends) just past the east end of the 63rd Drive station and rises above the in-service tracks and ends just under the side of Queens Blvd. A connecting tunnel between the subway and the Rockaway line would have to be cut-and-cover, probably under 64th or 65th Ave.

 

Yup, which is exactly what I meant by the "nuke" . Generally speaking, the QBL is just too shallow to be deep bored, not to mention a portal near the LIRR, don't want unnecessary steep grades anymore.

[Shortline Bus]

There is a good argument for beefed up service, even if there isn't a huge increase in ridership to Rockaway Park, but an increase in service useful for the Aqueduct Casino going crowd. A train line can have several purposes, in addition to servicing the folks that travel to the end of the line.

 

There are instances where the location of terminals is not always right near where they are "needed", and some places may get "more service" than is really needed. That is one reason why some IND trains ended at Second Avenue, even if that was not a popular destination, the train route served other needs.

 

The interesting problem for the A and C lines is the lack of useful terminals in Manhattan. In upper Manhattan there is the 168th Street, and 207th Street terminals, and maybe the Dyckman Street train yard lead tracks, however the first two of these facilities are claimed by regular running routes. The lower level of the 145th Street station is used by B-trains, 125th Street is out due to the cross-traffic needed, and the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal is no longer a terminal. Bringing trains from 71st Avenue, 179th Street, or Archer Avenue is kind of "overkill" for this project. Hosting a new train route is going to be interesting.

 

Considering the nature of NYC subway travel - I'm really not comfortable with waits of 30 minutes between trains, as suggested in the proposals. Twenty minute waits between trains was the standard "midnight hour" service - the lowest amount of service. As a resident of Staten Island where we regularly have 30 minute waits between boats - where missing a boat means by definition that you're late to your event or destination - 30 minute waits are NOT GOOD. These kinds of trips are not like taking an airplane ride, etc. but rather normal subway travel - which is supposed to be rapid, and where the trains are supposed to rapidly arrive. We do have to keep proposing to take the "rapid" out of rapid transit?

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

 

Mike, the Rockaway Park line is by far the lowest used coordior in the NYC subway system. Thus the reason for LIRR/Metro North-type off peak weekday headways of every 20-30 minutes.

 

The advantage is that Rock Park riders now for the first time in nearly 25 years have a direct 1-seat ride on weekdays and for a few hours on summer weekends to/from Manhattan and a connection to the "Airtrain" at Howard Beach. The Transfer between the Rock Park and the Far Rockaway at Broad Channel if the connection is missed could be well over 20-plus minutes. Example if a delayed misses the Beach 116th Bound at Broad Channel and thus adds an additional and unneeded 20 minutes travel time.

 

That why i think running the Rockaway Park shuttle weekday middays with 20-30 minute headways also helps prevents running empty trains. And most important gives riders going to the growing in popularity, Howard Beach/JFK "Airtrain" transfer station more service weekdays.

 

Just my takes.

[TwoTimer]

The funny thing about that AirTrain is that you can just go to Lefferts grab that oft-frequent Q10 and put the extra money back in your pocket, especially if you're not in a rush. That's what I tell those riders who mistakenly didn't get off at Rockaway Blvd. The amount of time spent backtracking isn't worth it.

[Shortline Bus]

The funny thing about that AirTrain is that you can just go to Lefferts grab that oft-frequent Q10 and put the extra money back in your pocket, especially if you're not in a rush. That's what I tell those riders who mistakenly didn't get off at Rockaway Blvd. The amount of time spent backtracking isn't worth it.

 

 

(2)timer great point. I still to this day about a decade after it opended felt that the transfer at Howard Beach between the Airtrain and the Rockaway branch should be free. Only the Jamaica section of the airtrain if at all should be a fee IMO.

 

With that said, the (Q10) now only makes '1' stop in the terminals section and that is at the international flights(i think terminal 4). If you have heavier bags, it just easier to take the airtrain.

[TwoTimer]

(2)timer great point. I still to this day about a decade after it opended felt that the transfer at Howard Beach between the Airtrain and the Rockaway branch should be free. Only the Jamaica section of the airtrain if at all should be a fee IMO.

 

With that said, the (Q10) now only makes '1' stop in the terminals section and that is at the international flights(i think terminal 4). If you have heavier bags, it just easier to take the airtrain.

 

That's interesting. I haven't flew out of JFK in a couple decades (only LGA) and all the LGA bus services go around to most the terminals.

[Shortline Bus]

That's interesting. I haven't flew out of JFK in a couple decades (only LGA) and all the LGA bus services go around to most the terminals.

 

It was only about 3-4 years back. The (B15) (Q10) and (Q3) only stop in airline areas is at internationals which is terminal 4. The and PANYNJ did the change i assume to force more riders to the airtrain. The airtrain replaced the jfk shuttle buses around the terminals.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_4_(AirTrain_JFK_station)

[Grand Concourse]

(2)timer great point. I still to this day about a decade after it opended felt that the transfer at Howard Beach between the Airtrain and the Rockaway branch should be free. Only the Jamaica section of the airtrain if at all should be a fee IMO.

 

With that said, the (Q10) now only makes '1' stop in the terminals section and that is at the international flights(i think terminal 4). If you have heavier bags, it just easier to take the airtrain.

 

Rather than the PA taking $5, it should be a subway ride + $3, which would be like paying $5.25. The agency separation is just stupid and hinders cooperation. But for the PA, more money for them for god knows what money pit projects they do (WTC 'dove' station hub building). If I were carrying a heavy luggage and didn't want to take the taxi, I don't want to be hassled with the bus if i can take the airtrain to subway.

[TwoTimer]

All my flying was domestic and less than a week, so I use LGA, and packing light so I can take my (free) to (M60) bus there.

[Shortline Bus]

Rather than the PA taking $5, it should be a subway ride + $3, which would be like paying $5.25. The agency separation is just stupid and hinders cooperation. But for the PA, more money for them for god knows what money pit projects they do (WTC 'dove' station hub building). If I were carrying a heavy luggage and didn't want to take the taxi, I don't want to be hassled with the bus if i can take the airtrain to subway.

 

Well said concourse. The PANYNJ is more corrupt (said to say)IMO than the . That for another topic.

 

And Twotimer almost all of my flights are also 'domestic' as well. However My Mom and sister are now living in Southern Calif. and thus all the non-stop/'direct' flights between NY and the west coast fly from either Newark or JFK.

[Trainmaster5]

It's been a while since the last post so can anyone give me an update on the casino/convention center's official news ? I've made 4 trips to the casino in the last month (3 SATs, 1 weekday) and I'll give my personal observations. From what I've seen AT THE PRESENT TIME there doesn't appear to be a need for extra subway service to Aqueduct even on Saturday nights. I drove there, from East New York, downtown Brooklyn, and from western Suffolk, with former RTO co-workers, and with family members from Brooklyn. The Brooklyn family members range from their mid thirties to early sixties and all live on, or close to, the . The consensus from the gamblers was that the train was convenient BUT with a thousand or so in the pocket that was a no-go from the jump. A car or casino bus was the only way they would ever go there. My former co-workers shared my opinion. It might be OK to take the train as a daytime excursion with family or co-workers for a visit to Aqueduct casino and the track. I would point out that as of today I can't see any justification for extra service to Aqueduct. The problem is that once the novelty has worn off I can't see attendance growing enough to warrant it. IF the casino expands to an AC or Vegas or Pocono REAL gambling resort and/if a full size convention is built then expanded subway service can be considered. It needs to be a destination, like Times Square, Yankee Stadium, Central Park, or the WTC, to warrant extra service. It may turn out to be a destination one day but not yet. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[TwoTimer]

My thoughts exactly, and generally speaking most on here would support that sentiment. They just wanted to make sure it would be done (although we really have no decision-making power) should the center be expanded. A full fledged casino would be lobbied heavily by neighboring states as well as upstate. AC would become Detroit in an instant.

[Grand Concourse]

Imo, AC is like Detroit. If not for the casinos on the boardwalk, the block behind the casinos are shady and 'dangerous'. Also with basically a one dimensional feel at AC where it's just gambling, there's no incentive to spend 2-3 hrs from the city to get there. Las Vegas, there's just so much to do other than to gamble and that's why it is still better.

 

Like I've believed: if people are going there to gamble and say they did reasonably well, I kinda doubt they are taking the subway back (subways aren't bad, but still has some unsavory people and people still have perceived thought of the system being dangerous). So as is, people are better off taking special buses or driving there. Only if it becomes a convention center would there be a need to expand any service or even whole new branches (revive the old Rockaway ROW).

[Gorgor]

I agree with some of the posts here. I definitely wouldn't want to get on the subway if I had a few hundred dollars worth of winnings on me. The only way that I can actually see people using the subway really is if there was a nonstop express to/from Manhattan, but I highly doubt that they'll ever do that again.

 

What would make more sense would be if there was a bus that went between Midtown and there (and make stops at JFK also), but I'm pretty sure that most people who go that might not want to take the subway because they'll have tons of cash on them probably own cars and would drive. Just looking at Google Maps, it says that from my house on the Upper East Side, it's less than half an hour to drive there, but well over an hour to take the bus to the to the .

[Nexis4Jersey]

My thoughts exactly, and generally speaking most on here would support that sentiment. They just wanted to make sure it would be done (although we really have no decision-making power) should the center be expanded. A full fledged casino would be lobbied heavily by neighboring states as well as upstate. AC would become Detroit in an instant.

 

Well if they get rid of the Casinos and market AC as Family city like its neighbors it wouldn't sink....they also need to build up AC. Attract people to live in the City itself , its not hard Long Beach,NY and several other coastal cities hit rock bottom and have come back strong...

[TwoTimer]

It's very difficult to counter stereotypes, and lets not compare tiny Long Beach to massive (by comparison) AC. And getting rid of your economic engine is a "no GOOD!"

[KeystoneRegional]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Grand Concourse]

Well if they get rid of the Casinos and market AC as Family city like its neighbors it wouldn't sink....they also need to build up AC. Attract people to live in the City itself , its not hard Long Beach,NY and several other coastal cities hit rock bottom and have come back strong...

 

That's too radical a change. You can't just wipe out the casino industry there. Las Vegas shows having a mixed variety of things to do: casinos, shows, attractions, conventions, etc. can work without having to have one thing like gambling be the main draw.