Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[CenSin]

This is true, but the runs through upper Manhattan, which is much closer to parts of The Bronx or Brooklyn in nature than other parts of Manhattan. I'm not sure if I can say the same for the .

 

True. Upper Manhattan is almost like an outer borough itself. It's less business and more residential use there.

 

What does that leave us with? A SAS that, even if it is built to Hanover St, will be slower (no express service), not as useful (no service to outer boroughs), and overall more of a liability than a benefit. Why would people want to move to the SAS when the and are faster? Why would people want to take the Manhattan shuttle when they can get one-train rides on the or from Brooklyn or The Bronx to Manhattan?

 

This is why service should go beyond what is proposed. It has the potential to serve areas that need a subway (3rd Avenue in The Bronx, 125th Street in Manhattan, and southern Brooklyn east of Nostrand). If this ever happens, it would take care of the crowding issue because the line would run parallel to the and/or throughout its whole route. At the same time, it would bring new riders. Unfortunately, this would require a lot of money that the currently doesn't have.

 

It does solve problems for two specific scenarios though: those who need convenient access further east and those living along the subway line traveling within Manhattan.

 

But there's no money to do that! As a compromise, that is a good option.

 

A compromise would be the worst result. Compromises produce things that generally preclude further improvements. For example, had Roger's Junction been built right the first time, we would not need to count on a new signalling system to improve traffic only marginally.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

If you study the original proposal and the later revisions for the SAS, including the present phased construction plan, it's obvious that what is being constructed is a direct replacement for the els. There wasn't anything in the plan that mentioned Culver ,Fulton , or the Rockaways, IIRC. I can't deny the severe overcrowding on the Lexington lines but it appears the plan was to reduce the crowding on the upper Lex 4,5, and 6 trains, hence the phased work on SAS. IMO the Bronx would be more deserving of any extension of the line if one were to be constructed because they lost the services (2nd and 3rd Ave els) to begin with. Whether one promotes a Bronx, Brooklyn, or combinations of an extension it's my opinion that either way comes very close to the realm of fantasy in today's world. It should be noted that many plans, including some we have promoted on this forum, were scrutinized and dropped from consideration before this so-called 'final" plan was adopted and this round of construction on this SAS was approved. I can't begin to imagine how much litigation, how many environmental impact studies and the like, and how many decades it would take before any further extensions would take place. That's what I was trying to point out in my earlier post today. I've seen new tunnels, new routes, new services being promoted lately while I'm saying let's be realistic about this before this thread breaks down into arguments about what service goes where when phase one isn't completed yet. IMO phase two might be 50-50 but phases three and four are on shakey ground at the present. I'm still waiting for the IND Second System to be built in it's entirety so you can probably guess how much faith I have in the MTA and New York City and State to complete a transit project. Let's try to be civil to each other. Carry on.

 

I agree that the Bronx should be the next boro that the 2nd Avenue Subway travels to if the planners' goal of relieving overcrowding on the upper and lines is to be realized because those lines are crowded even before entering Manhattan. If they really want to relieve overcrowding, it might be better to have the line continue north into the Bronx rather than dogleg over to Lexington and 125th. Maybe start by having a short section in the Bronx with stations on 3rd Avenue at 149th and 138th Streets with transfers to the and at 149th and the at 138th. Yes, it would require tunneling under the Harlem River. Would it be significantly more expensive to build a prefabricated tunnel and sink it under the Harlem River, like they did with the 63rd Street tunnel (which is longer than this tunnel would be)?

[Far Rock Depot]

I just realized something here's everyone arguing over what's the best way to have SAS extend to Brooklyn right? Yet, this whole time, I'm realizing that no one mentioned that SAS WILL be going to Brooklyn. I guarantee it! Ask me how. go ahead. I dares ya. Lol

Seriously, technically we are arguing over something that's already gonna happen.

[Grand Concourse]

I agree that the Bronx should be the next boro that the 2nd Avenue Subway travels to if the planners' goal of relieving overcrowding on the upper and lines is to be realized because those lines are crowded even before entering Manhattan. If they really want to relieve overcrowding, it might be better to have the line continue north into the Bronx rather than dogleg over to Lexington and 125th. Maybe start by having a short section in the Bronx with stations on 3rd Avenue at 149th and 138th Streets with transfers to the and at 149th and the at 138th. Yes, it would require tunneling under the Harlem River. Would it be significantly more expensive to build a prefabricated tunnel and sink it under the Harlem River, like they did with the 63rd Street tunnel (which is longer than this tunnel would be)?

 

Even 2 stops in the Bronx under 3rd av for transfers to those lines would be a better use than to just annex it to the Concourse line. Now if the connection to Concourse was from a branch of the SAS, maybe.... But I totally agree that 3rd av deserves priority as it should.

[Trainmaster5]

I just realized something here's everyone arguing over what's the best way to have SAS extend to Brooklyn right? Yet, this whole time, I'm realizing that no one mentioned that SAS WILL be going to Brooklyn. I guarantee it! Ask me how. go ahead. I dares ya. Lol

Seriously, technically we are arguing over something that's already gonna happen.

 

Via the "Q". The 1st phase IS to Brooklyn.

[Tokkemon]

*facepalm*

[Q10 Airport]

Even 2 stops in the Bronx under 3rd av for transfers to those lines would be a better use than to just annex it to the Concourse line. Now if the connection to Concourse was from a branch of the SAS, maybe.... But I totally agree that 3rd av deserves priority as it should.

 

 

Annexing to the Concourse line at 125th Street makes sense only if you are planning to have a 125th Street local. The Bronx branch would then have its last connection with the 125th Street branch at 116th Street. I agree that the 3rd Avenue extension should be number one on the SAS extension wishlist, even though extensions to Brooklyn and 125th Street would both be extremely useful.

[Threxx]

If the SAS takes three stops under 3rd and is then annexed to Concourse, it makes more sense right there than the current terminal.

[Grand Concourse]

Of course it makes more sense than 125th. Unless the person is on 2nd av above 72nd, who would want to make a transfer to the lex lines when they can already walk to it and get a single ride? Either way, 3rd av is the top priority. At least get a few stops built there with provisions for the future and then maybe have the connection to Concourse to be a parallel to the and store some trains at Concourse yard.

[2Line1291]

2-tracked isn't gonna cut it SMH!!! at least make provisions to build express tracks under the local tracks. Making the SAS 4-tracked (phase 1 and 2) not only increases capacity on 2nd Ave but also the Broadway Line finally sending the up to UES and the Bronx w/ the

[TheSubwayStation]

2-tracked isn't gonna cut it SMH!!! at least make provisions to build express tracks under the local tracks. Making the SAS 4-tracked (phase 1 and 2) not only increases capacity on 2nd Ave but also the Broadway Line finally sending the up to UES and the Bronx w/ the

 

If you send both the and to 125 St, what's going to serve Astoria? If you're thinking the , it's pretty clear that the alone can't handle Astoria ridership.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

If the SAS takes three stops under 3rd and is then annexed to Concourse, it makes more sense right there than the current terminal.

 

But if the SAS is joined to Concourse, the will most likely have to be booted off the Concourse Line and either the or SAS will have to run local. Concourse riders will likely go nuts at the thought of their train being made local during rush hours. If Concourse had four tracks, then I'd definitely say extend one of the SAS lines up that way. But with only three tracks, it would make more sense for the Bronx portion of the SAS to run on a separate route. If it's the or , a yard wouldn't have to be built in the Bronx; either line would just continue to be based out of Coney Island.

[Threxx]

But if the SAS is joined to Concourse, the will most likely have to be booted off the Concourse Line and either the or SAS will have to run local. Concourse riders will likely go nuts at the thought of their train being made local during rush hours. If Concourse had four tracks, then I'd definitely say extend one of the SAS lines up that way. But with only three tracks, it would make more sense for the Bronx portion of the SAS to run on a separate route. If it's the or , a yard wouldn't have to be built in the Bronx; either line would just continue to be based out of Coney Island.

 

 

The and could run local. Concourse could fit it. The needs a yard, 3rd Avenue could connect to Concourse at 205th Street on the other side...

[CenSin]

But if the SAS is joined to Concourse, the will most likely have to be booted off the Concourse Line and either the or SAS will have to run local. Concourse riders will likely go nuts at the thought of their train being made local during rush hours. If Concourse had four tracks, then I'd definitely say extend one of the SAS lines up that way. But with only three tracks, it would make more sense for the Bronx portion of the SAS to run on a separate route. If it's the or , a yard wouldn't have to be built in the Bronx; either line would just continue to be based out of Coney Island.

 

The Grand Concourse line has some evidence that it was originally planned to be a 4-tracked line. There might be provisions for it too, but the only clue that shows is the platform arrangement at the lower level of the 145 Street station.

[TheSubwayStation]

The and could run local. Concourse could fit it. The needs a yard, 3rd Avenue could connect to Concourse at 205th Street on the other side...

 

Doesn't that seem like a little too much service, though?

[BrooklynIRT]

The Grand Concourse line has some evidence that it was originally planned to be a 4-tracked line. There might be provisions for it too, but the only clue that shows is the platform arrangement at the lower level of the 145 Street station.

 

Can you explain?

[Quill Depot]

Can you explain?

 

That is the best he could explain.

 

Doesn't that seem like a little too much service, though?

 

Maybe only rush. The could only run to get to 2nd Avenue maybe. Have it in service.

 

Instead, to have the run concoure exp, You could terminate the at 145th rush or non rush. The could run concourse express during rush and the could run local.

[IntExp]

An update to the story, cortusey of the New York Times.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ond-avenue.html

 

 

Video also courtsey of the New York Times.

 

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/08/01/magazine/100000001695059/the-once-and-future-dream-of-new-york.html

Edited August 1, 2012 by IntExp

[Shortline Bus]

Guys. A video update for August 2012 on the SAS project.

 

 

[N4 Via Merrick Rd]

Hmmm can they make it by 2016? ^^

[VWM]

Hmmm can they make it by 2016? ^^

 

No.

[Grand Concourse]

And you know this because...?

[Threxx]

That explosion is awesome. At the rate they seem to be going, I don't see why they can't finish Phase 1 and 2 by 2020...

[Q10 Airport]

That explosion is awesome. At the rate they seem to be going, I don't see why they can't finish Phase 1 and 2 by 2020...

 

 

I can see why they can't finish the first two phases by 2020 . . . money. Yes, the same thing that stopped construction of the SAS the first two times.

[Threxx]

They have the provisions for Phase 2, it probably will only be half as expensive as Phase 1...