Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Union Tpke]

125th Street will be a two-track station because it will cost less, and as it was deemed "unnecessary." The layups will now hold three trains each to compensate.

 

[RR503]

Whelp, there goes flexibility... 

Please dear god tell me they're putting crossovers west of the station also... 

[Union Tpke]

28 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Whelp, there goes flexibility... 

Please dear god tell me they're putting crossovers west of the station also... 

Honestly, it shouldn't be a surprise. This will allow them to show "reduced costs per mile" without cutting the actual graft and excesses.

[Wallyhorse]

Those tail tracks do need to be done with a provision to send the SAS all the way across 125 to a terminal at Broadway that can include a transfer to the  and with stops at all other stations along 125 (allowing for transfers to the at Lenox and the at St. Nicholas, plus if possible a connection to the 8th Avenue line at 125/St. Nicholas that would allow for G.O.'s involving other lines as well as the option of running the SAS to 207 or the Concourse Line in the future. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Wallyhorse

[CenSin]

8 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

125th Street will be a two-track station because it will cost less, and as it was deemed "unnecessary." The layups will now hold three trains each to compensate.

 

Hurray! Now the Bronx branch will be hastened. This will be good up until the gets thrown in, then they will have to build some extra terminal capacity.

[Mysterious2train]

This change doesn't make a Bronx extension any more or less likely. The 2-track station will still be able to turn 28 trains per hour, which is the planned upper limit of service, so capacity is still the same. As far as the current, four-phase, Manahttan-only project approved in 2004 is concerned, nothing has substantially changed. The only real loss is the added flexibility in train movements (which would have been even more useful mid-line like at 72nd St, which is not already a terminal). 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Mysterious2train

[bobtehpanda]

12 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I get your points. What I'm saying create more capacity it was never really about speed what express line in NYC really is?  You'd be pulling bodies from SE Queens all the feeder bus lines into Jamaica.  extension to Rosedale by the time it pulls into Parsons it's packed  A stop at Sutphin and right to LIC and Manhattan. Great use of a bypass route. I'm I wrong for thinking that would free up some space along the QBL? Afterall the riders from SE Qns are skipping Forest Hills and Jackson Hts altogether.  I understand the question is where do the trains go can the 53rd/60th/63rd street tube handle more trains? Manhattan trunks? What about the merger points? Lost service if you reroute? Maybe this is an SAS thing? Lower Montauk anyone? Kinda a bypass shurgs..  Would be nice to speard things out on the QBL but to your point with Western Qns and congestion, those trains are going to have start coming in a bit lighter. Reroute the folks from further out that could happen. 

It would free up some space, but not enough. To free up the most space you have to give everybody an option. Like I said, most of the population is in Western Queens, and most of the growth is in Western Queens. A bypass just skipping everything makes no sense.

There's a full 15 TPH available when Phase III SAS is built. Building a bypass before that would not make sense.

[RailRunRob]

21 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

It would free up some space, but not enough. To free up the most space you have to give everybody an option. Like I said, most of the population is in Western Queens, and most of the growth is in Western Queens. A bypass just skipping everything makes no sense.

There's a full 15 TPH available when Phase III SAS is built. Building a bypass before that would not make sense.

Figured the SAS would solve some of the issues of where trains go. Kinda calculated that into my statement. True there are more people in Western Qns isn't the point to reroute bodies so you can open more space on trains to accommodate more riders on that end? After all, Transit hasn't caught up to the 20-century demands in Eastern and South Eastern Queens yet many decades behind on that promise how could you expand if you didn't meet yesterdays demands. I'm sure the riders at Forest Hill's will be fine with folks from Laurelton, Rosedale, and South Jamaica bypassing them more space for them and riders west of that point.

[CenSin]

8 hours ago, Mysterious2train said:

This change doesn't make a Bronx extension any more or less likely. The 2-track station will still be able to turn 28 trains per hour, which is the planned upper limit of service, so capacity is still the same. As far as the current, four-phase, Manahttan-only project approved in 2004 is concerned, nothing has substantially changed. The only real loss is the added flexibility in train movements (which would have been even more useful mid-line like at 72nd St, which is not already a terminal). 

Then what was the effect of having a third track previously?

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

Then what was the effect of having a third track previously?

Some minimal redundancy if a train stalls on the terminal tracks, I guess. The third track for 'extra' capacity would have only been useful in the time frame between Phase III and the Bronx extension, and even then, the maximum throughput that we have with current signalling on any pair of tracks is 30 TPH on QBL. The maximum throughput on train systems world wide with CBTC (which to my knowledge SAS is not equipped with) is 40TPH. And this is before we talk about the intricacies of merging non-CBTC trains into the system and all that.

This kind of overengineering is why the IND went bust and never built the Second System, so I'm glad that we're value engineering this project, however slightly.

Edited September 28, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[CenSin]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Some minimal redundancy if a train stalls on the terminal tracks, I guess. The third track for 'extra' capacity would have only been useful in the time frame between Phase III and the Bronx extension, and even then, the maximum throughput that we have with current signalling on any pair of tracks is 30 TPH on QBL. The maximum throughput on train systems world wide with CBTC (which to my knowledge SAS is not equipped with) is 40TPH. And this is before we talk about the intricacies of merging non-CBTC trains into the system and all that.

This kind of overengineering is why the IND went bust and never built the Second System, so I'm glad that we're value engineering this project, however slightly.

The problem is that we all suspect the cost cutting by sacrificing infrastructure. The real cost cutting needs to be done by holding contractors accountable. We pay them billions to to a sub-par job. In other words, this is not value engineering, but sacrificing permanent infrastructure to pad the pockets of those who are skimming money off this project.

[Wallyhorse]

9 minutes ago, CenSin said:

The problem is that we all suspect the cost cutting by sacrificing infrastructure. The real cost cutting needs to be done by holding contractors accountable. We pay them billions to to a sub-par job. In other words, this is not value engineering, but sacrificing permanent infrastructure to pad the pockets of those who are skimming money off this project.

And that is a big problem.  Unless you can get someone who can make it where contractors are watched like hawks to make sure everything is done correctly, this is going to continue.  

[bobtehpanda]

57 minutes ago, CenSin said:

The problem is that we all suspect the cost cutting by sacrificing infrastructure. The real cost cutting needs to be done by holding contractors accountable. We pay them billions to to a sub-par job. In other words, this is not value engineering, but sacrificing permanent infrastructure to pad the pockets of those who are skimming money off this project.

I mean, this is infrastructure that is useful during a very short time period, and in very specific circumstances. Even the IND did not overbuild stations that it didn't intend to have a further use for (and really, how could you justify a third track)?

[CenSin]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, this is infrastructure that is useful during a very short time period, and in very specific circumstances. Even the IND did not overbuild stations that it didn't intend to have a further use for (and really, how could you justify a third track)?

Nobody really needs this 125 Street station at 2 Avenue, but this cost-cutting method goes to visibly highlight one of the ills of our projects.

[RR503]

A board member asked about cost reductions during the meeting. Lhota rambled and gave no real answer, talking about design-build, efficiencies, "cost control," etc. No big acceptance of the fact that we're a hot mess in terms of cap costs. 

 

[bobtehpanda]

12 hours ago, RR503 said:

A board member asked about cost reductions during the meeting. Lhota rambled and gave no real answer, talking about design-build, efficiencies, "cost control," etc. No big acceptance of the fact that we're a hot mess in terms of cap costs. 

Such an admission would mean that Cuomo has the balls to take on Big Construction in this town, and open up a *whole* can of worms on union work rules being subject to collective bargaining.

[Wallyhorse]

5 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Such an admission would mean that Cuomo has the balls to take on Big Construction in this town, and open up a *whole* can of worms on union work rules being subject to collective bargaining.

And the problem is if he does that, it could lead to a host of unintended consequences, especially among unions who act like this is 1967 and not 2017.

[Porter]

As long as there are two tail-tracks pointing north towards the Bronx, I'm happy. Tail-tracks pointing west for a future cross-town line is a bonus.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Skipper

[BreeddekalbL]

I think i asked the question earlier if trump or a future administration  offers federal money for say phase 4  could he possibly force the cross platform at grand street to be built or in original phase 3 plans for 2nd ave F station under guise of lower costs? 

Edited October 1, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Phil Plotch]

I'm writing a book about the long saga of the Second Avenue Subway.  I am a former MTA planner and currently a professor at Saint Peter's University

I would like to hear from anyone who has insight into the project's long history.   My email is plotchnj@yahoo.com

Thanks.

Phil

 

[Union Tpke]

I have heard about this. I edit wikipedia, and try to improve existing articles and make them more accurate. While it is wikipedia, there is quite a lot of information on the SAS there. I am Kew Gardens 613 there, and along with a few other users, I have added information on the project's history and construction. In fact, the article had gotten way too large, so the History of the Second Avenue Subway was split off into another article. There are many sources listed for the article that might be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck on your project!

[Phil Plotch]

Thanks for the info (Union Tpke) and also thanks for keeping the Wikipedia article up-to-date.  The citations at the bottom of Wikipedia articles are invaluable.  

I have scoured archives and interviewed over 100 people, but I could always use more contacts who worked on the Second Ave. subway.  

The planning, design and construction of the 63rd Street to 96th Street segment was incredibly complex, and I would like to hear more stories from the people who worked on it. 

 

[Union Tpke]

You are welcome. If I find anything I will tell you. Keep up the great work. Have you seen the images from the Transit Museum archives?

[MysteriousBtrain]

5 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

The History of the Second Avenue Subway was split off into another article.

Lol maybe I can learn more by reading this "split" article. Thanks for the link.

[RR503]

I would also check out the book "Routes not Taken" -- gives a good overview of the line's history. 

If you want info on the current iteration, read the various EISs. They'll tell all.