Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

Where cut and cover costs start exploding is the utility relocation. NYC is not the city it used to be. The network under the street is massive. The amount of utilities to relocate are staggering. Especially depending on what's nearby above ground. Not directly above buildings close to where you want to cut. Like in the case of 96th and retaining/slurry wall had to be built to maintain the integrity of not only the box but the foundations of buildings along the street near the box and the utilities under the sidewalk.

 

It would've been way more beneficial if the subway line got there before the utilities did 90 years ago but hindsight is as they say 20/20.

 

Well, at least they're starting to map out the utilities underground that were installed in recent years. It'll take a while before everything is done, though.

 

It would be beneficial if the utility companies did not just do their own thing and coordinate for the future.

 

The issue is that utility construction in New York has always been very patchwork.  Other cities with giant, coordinated systems had them mapped down to the meter, so their utility relocation is much cheaper since they know where everything is. In New York, we know which pipes the street run down, but we don't know where. So we end up having to dig up the entire street to do something like this.

 

They're being mapped as they replace retirement age, though, and I believe the situation is better in the far outer boroughs since those were the last areas to be developed.

[AndrewJC]

Guys, sending the down Water street makes far more sense in terms of population distribution. I didn't realize this until I actually started working on Wall Street. The population concentration of actual workers (not the stockbrokers at NYSE or the gobs of tourists looking at said NYSE) is heavily concentrated toward the shores of the island. This is why (among other reasons) that the Nassau St line is so little used, because its right in the middle of a dead spot in the neighborhood, near Broad Street. Having a dedicated subway line more toward the shore would aleviate the congestion on the IRT down there (yes the , as well) and give the UES the option for Western AND Eastern Lower Manhattan. This may not seem like a big deal, especially since everything is so tightly packed down there, but every block closer you can get counts. And when there's so many skycrapers and a non-grid street system, walking somewhere that looks like a short distance on a map may be far longer on the ground than it seems on paper. 

 

And, of course, Hanover Square needs a subway stop, there's no question about that one.

 

THIS.

 

Everybody, read this.

 

Should the SAS serve a corridor of Lower Manhattan lined with large office buildings that's currently unserved by the subway? Or should it be tightly sandwiched between the two IRT lines, possibly forcing the J/Z to be cut back to Chambers?

 

Here's what the SDEIS has to say about this issue:

 

In conclusion, the Nassau Street Option would not meet the goals and objectives of the project as well as the Water Street Option. It would not reduce crowding levels on the Lexington Avenue Line to the same degree as the Water Street Option. With the Nassau Street Option, crowding levels on the Lexington Avenue 45 express routes would continue to exceed NYCT’s loading guidelines at Grand Central Station. The Nassau Street Option would also not improve subway access to the Lower East Side and the easternmost areas of Lower Manhattan as well as the Water Street Option. Three new station areasChatham Square, South Street Seaport, and Hanover Squarewould be served by the Water Street Option. Also, access to a new north-south subway service would be provided at Grand Street with the Water Street Option. Under the Nassau Street Option, it would not be possible to accommodate future growth by adding trains without an equivalent reduction in JMZ service over the Williamsburg Bridge. The estimated costs for the Nassau Street Option could rise considerably if the existing stations were fully expanded and upgraded to accommodate the additional riders (and it may not be completely feasible to do so), eliminating one of the major advantages of this Option. The Nassau Street Option also has the potential to create significant adverse impacts to historic, visual, and archaeological resources, as the areas of construction would be very disruptive and are often in more sensitive areas than the Water Street Option. Finally, with the Nassau Street Option, there would be significant construction-period and permanent impacts to existing Nassau Line (JMZ) service, a potential significant environmental justice issue as well as a transit impact.

[bobtehpanda]

This question has been bugging me for a bit. Since we know that the MTA is eventually going to install systemwide CBTC (or do its very best to), what kind of signalling is being installed on the Second Avenue Subway? It'd be very silly for them to have to go back and install CBTC a decade or so after opening the thing.

[Tokkemon]

I looked and can't seem to find any data on that. Anyone got any ideas?

[Union Tpke]

I agree with bobtehpanda it would make no sense to install CBTC several years in the future if they are still building it right now.

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[itmaybeokay]

This question has been bugging me for a bit. Since we know that the MTA is eventually going to install systemwide CBTC (or do its very best to), what kind of signalling is being installed on the Second Avenue Subway? It'd be very silly for them to have to go back and install CBTC a decade or so after opening the thing.

 

I believe I read somewhere that the signaling would be "CBTC-ready" like what they are installing on Culver. Later on, when the rest of the Q line gets CBTC installed they can plug in the system to the signals and it should interface to the extent that it can. I would imagine they would at least install condiuts to facilitate an easy installation of the transponders and whatnot they'll have to put in going forward. 

 

It doesn't make sense for them to put in the CBTC equipment yet - they haven't event standardized on exactly what the systemwide CBTC would be, I don't think - and even if they did, they'd have to have CBTC stock on all the Q equipment. Also, I'm not sure if cars can gracefully switch from fixed-block to CBTC while in service - maybe they can, maybe they can't - but I presume they'll have to have fixed-block signaling ready to serve until the rest of the gets communications-based equipment. 

[LTA1992]

I actually had a feeling that they would future proof the signal system by making it CBTC ready.

[CenSin]

I believe I read somewhere that the signaling would be "CBTC-ready" like what they are installing on Culver. Later on, when the rest of the Q line gets CBTC installed they can plug in the system to the signals and it should interface to the extent that it can. I would imagine they would at least install condiuts to facilitate an easy installation of the transponders and whatnot they'll have to put in going forward. 

 

It doesn't make sense for them to put in the CBTC equipment yet - they haven't event standardized on exactly what the systemwide CBTC would be, I don't think - and even if they did, they'd have to have CBTC stock on all the Q equipment. Also, I'm not sure if cars can gracefully switch from fixed-block to CBTC while in service - maybe they can, maybe they can't - but I presume they'll have to have fixed-block signaling ready to serve until the rest of the gets communications-based equipment. 

I've read the same thing, though like you, I've also forgotten the source, but it's a source that semi-official if not official.

[realizm]

I believe I read somewhere that the signaling would be "CBTC-ready" like what they are installing on Culver. Later on, when the rest of the Q line gets CBTC installed they can plug in the system to the signals and it should interface to the extent that it can. I would imagine they would at least install condiuts to facilitate an easy installation of the transponders and whatnot they'll have to put in going forward. 

 

It doesn't make sense for them to put in the CBTC equipment yet - they haven't event standardized on exactly what the systemwide CBTC would be, I don't think - and even if they did, they'd have to have CBTC stock on all the Q equipment. Also, I'm not sure if cars can gracefully switch from fixed-block to CBTC while in service - maybe they can, maybe they can't - but I presume they'll have to have fixed-block signaling ready to serve until the rest of the gets communications-based equipment.

I've read the same thing, though like you, I've also forgotten the source, but it's a source that semi-official if not official.

 

 

Yes that's what I read, actually I believe on the mta.info site itself that the SAS Phase 1 will be CBTC ready. I think what the logic behind this (speculating here) is that the MTA may make plans to do just that as you've mentioned (And it makes sense!) install the latest CBTC technology on Phase 1 SAS -and- the BMT Broadway at least if not the Brighton line as well in conjunction with the . Likely the CBTC project will happen after the CBTC project on the IND Queens Blvd. Line is completed. Which we all know will not take ten years to complete on the QBL end of things.

 

On the the R160's, only 64 cars are retrofitted for CBTC and are running on the .  according this official source pdf report from the MTA on page 15.

 

Snapshot:

 

 

The only rolling stock that exists that was built from scratch, CBTC ready, are the R 156 Electric-Diesel Work Locmotives which uses the same SITRAC AC propulsion system as the R160 cars 8843 to 9102.

 

Video,  (thanks to transitmaven):

 

*R156 is seen at the :35 mark

 

 

Edited July 30, 2013 by realizm

[AndrewJC]

I believe I read somewhere that the signaling would be "CBTC-ready" like what they are installing on Culver. Later on, when the rest of the Q line gets CBTC installed they can plug in the system to the signals and it should interface to the extent that it can. I would imagine they would at least install condiuts to facilitate an easy installation of the transponders and whatnot they'll have to put in going forward. 

 

It doesn't make sense for them to put in the CBTC equipment yet - they haven't event standardized on exactly what the systemwide CBTC would be, I don't think - and even if they did, they'd have to have CBTC stock on all the Q equipment. Also, I'm not sure if cars can gracefully switch from fixed-block to CBTC while in service - maybe they can, maybe they can't - but I presume they'll have to have fixed-block signaling ready to serve until the rest of the gets communications-based equipment. 

 

That is 100% correct.

 

As for gracefully switching between signal systems, that's a prerequisite for QBL CBTC, which will only be installed initially between Union Turnpike and 50th St.

 

(And before anybody asks, the 7 extension is also opening with a wayside signal system - otherwise it wouldn't be able to open until the CBTC and R188 projects are complete.)

 

 

Yes that's what I read, actually I believe on the mta.info site itself that the SAS Phase 1 will be CBTC ready. I think what the logic behind this (speculating here) is that the MTA may make plans to do just that as you've mentioned (And it makes sense!) install the latest CBTC technology on Phase 1 SAS -and- the BMT Broadway at least if not the Brighton line as well in conjunction with the . Likely the CBTC project will happen after the CBTC project on the IND Queens Blvd. Line is completed. Which we all know will not take ten years to complete on the QBL end of things.

 

On the the R160's, only 64 cars are retrofitted for CBTC and are running on the .  according this official source pdf report from the MTA on page 15.

 

 

After QBL, I'd expect some more IND lines before moving on to the BMT. The BMT, as far as I know, has had all of its signals modernized at some point, while much of the IND is still using its original signals.

 

The 64 CBTC-equipped R160's are equipped with the Canarsie CBTC system, which will be unique. The Flushing CBTC system will also be unique, but everything after that will share a common standard.

[CenSin]

The 64 CBTC-equipped R160's are equipped with the Canarsie CBTC system, which will be unique. The Flushing CBTC system will also be unique, but everything after that will share a common standard.

I suppose that prevents the MTA from ever allowing in-service use of the connection between the Jamaica and Canarsie lines.

[AndrewJC]

I suppose that prevents the MTA from ever allowing in-service use of the connection between the Jamaica and Canarsie lines.

 

Actually, it doesn't, since the Canarsie line south of Broadway Junction has a moderate-capacity wayside signal system that was installed along with CBTC to allow unequipped trains to reach Canarsie Yard and its car wash - I believe there are enough signals for 12 tph, which isn't enough for rush hour service but is fine off-peak.

 

So, in principle, unequipped trains (or trains equipped with the eventual systemwide-except-Canarsie-and-Flushing CBTC system) can use that connection and run to Canarsie as long as service doesn't run any better than every 5 minutes.

[realizm]

Must read.

 

I was skimming through the latest posts by transit activist Ben Kabek from Second Ave Sagas concerning adocating for immediate funding for Phase 2 construction in a continuous manner after Phase 1 is open instead of decades of inactivity with the MTA with slow progress of Phase 2.

 

Apparently the MTA even got the attention of this (See last paragraph for what I've read about the 20 year plan for completion of the SAS, very likely all 4 phases of the SAS)

 

In his blog entry, on July 29th, he stated that representative Carolyn Maloney, who is advocating for completion of the SAS, will be given a report card grade of A+ for pushing to have the Second Ave Subway, Phase 1 open in late 2016. However he has given sharp criticisms on her dragging her feet on appropriating funding ASAP for Phase 2 construction in order to provide continuity.  Among other concerns that he has concerning Yorkshire Towers and the ongoing battle with the MTA over station placement with the 86th Street station.
 
To quote Ben Kabek from his entry:
 
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/07/29/what-rep-maloneys-second-ave-report-card-doesnt-say/
 

But as a relatively powerful representative in Congress, Maloney is in a position to do more than just grade the MTA on its plans for the future. She can work to secure the next federal grand that could push the MTA to start the planning process for Phase 2 right now. The project needs a new champion, and Maloney could be it.

 
Ms. Maloney actually got the attention of Ben Kabek and read his comments. Hence she gave a response which lead to today's blog entries written by Mr. Kabek on Second Ave Sagas, as a response to her comments from the original post made yesterday on the site. as a result, Ben Kabek issued a follow up blog entry reflecting on her comments.

To quote what she said in return:
 
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/07/31/carolyn-maloney-and-the-second-ave-phase-ii-sagas/
 

I appreciate your attention to my report on the Second Avenue Subway; however, you are mistaken to suggest that I am not paying attention to the need to move seamlessly from Phase I to Phase II. I sent a letter on June 11, 2013 requesting information about what the MTA is doing to plan for Phase II. They responded to me on June 21, 2013 confirming their commitment to moving seamlessly to Phase II. On June 21, 2013, I met with then Acting Chairman of the Board Fernando Ferrer and others regarding the need to move to Phase II. And, my report makes clear that the next report will take a closer look at what the MTA is doing to plan for Phase II.

 
From those comments Ben Kabek concluded that Phase 2 construction may indeed happen sooner then we think, if she can convince the Senate and House of representatives, as well as the lawmakers in Albany to push for funding, tapping into the monetary initiative on the part of President Obama Barack via the Federal Transit Administration, to increase funding for rail improvements and construction of new projects on the mass transit and rail networks in the United States in general.
 
Personally speaking as an average taxpaying straphanger, I'm not so sure with how quickly this can really happen with the beginning of Phase 2 construction. Remember that it is, there are still problems with the MTA capital budget which currently stands @ 12 billion dollars if I'm correct, and the funds that they have currently.
 
The MTA is burning the candle at both ends in terms of capital construction projects such as the extension, the SAS as a given, two long term emergency overhauls of underwater tubes in effect for the IND Crosstown Line with the   (Greenpoint Tubes) and now the as well. (Montague tubes) both due to severe salt water corrosion which is causing ever-continuous and severe chemical related reactions of steel, deterioration of electrical equipment, communication lines, trackbed damage, and even the iron rings surrounding the tubes themselves, particularly with the Montague St tubes among other things....
 
Not to mention purchases of new rolling stock for the A and B division (i.e R188's, and the tentative R179 order currently in development by Bombardiar) and the LIRR East Side Access project construction, which is in suspended motion as it is now, because of lack of funding, and monetary problems.
 
I'm going to follow with this and see if Mr. Ben Kabek can indeed catch the attention of the state government, The continued advocating on the part of Ms. Maloney for overseeing the completion of Phase 1 and 2 in a timely fashion, as well as, the MTA and make Phase 2 a reality, as a continuity of construction up to 125th Street.

 

I will note that MTA Chairman Pendergrast has recently appointed a committee to finalize a 20 year need assessment plan by this fall, apparently to commit to compete all 4 phases of the SAS and activate the all the way to Hanover Square. 

 

So in short, phase 2 just may be open in a decade in change, from what transpired between Ben Kabek and Representative Maloney.

Edited August 1, 2013 by realizm

[Tokkemon]

East Side Access is suspended?!

 

Though, really, what's the point of that project?

[bobtehpanda]

East Side Access is suspended?!

 

Though, really, what's the point of that project?

 

It's not suspended - they're announcing several cancellations of Port Washington trains to do work on the Harold Interlocking portion of the project.

 

It's meant to bring Midtown LIRR workers closer to their offices (nearly all the jobs are located in a 15 minute walk around Grand Central), and has the side effect of relieving congestion due to less traffic from Penn.

[realizm]

East Side Access is suspended?!

 

Though, really, what's the point of that project?

 

To provide Long Island and Queens residents with direct access to Grand Central Station. An added benefit is the relieving of congestion on the IND Queens Blvd Line.

 

Yes of course the QBL is getting CBTC but I guess the MTA decided to give it a shot toattempt to nail the Queens transit problem for good. They have to utilize the 63rd st tunnel completely, Subways upper and LIRR lower level, and the suur connection to the SAS, by federal government orders (ironically not New York State) during the time the 63rd St line was deemed "the tunnel to nowhere" only going to 21st St/Queensbridge (in the 80's), another motivator for the MTA to get the project going, and also the current QBL connection from the upper level.

Edited August 1, 2013 by realizm

[realizm]

It's not suspended - they're announcing several cancellations of Port Washington trains to do work on the Harold Interlocking portion of the project.

 

It's meant to bring Midtown LIRR workers closer to their offices (nearly all the jobs are located in a 15 minute walk around Grand Central), and has the side effect of relieving congestion due to less traffic from Penn.

 

It's my fault in throwing Tokkeman off, I meant the term concerning the LIRR East Side project in being "suspended in motion" as a figurative tongue in cheek statement, not literally suspended. It's more in reality delayed as you highlighted.

 

Let me add that as usual, it's also due to lack of funding for the project as well as what you also mentioned. The MTA is really doing a juggling act here with the capital construction budget. The refusals of Albany to conclude their budgets in the recent fiscal years slowed down construction as an indirect result dramatically.

 

Originally the state government approved a bond while the federal government assumed all responsibility for the cost of construction by funding over 2 billion dollars to start with tunnel work using TBMs and construction of the bell-mouths from 6rd St LL, and in Manhattan again TBMs to drill into the vicinity of 37th in Midtown, at GCT.  But with the economic downfall felt nationwide as of recent years, the scenerio changed and progress slowed down. Indeed this is a very costly and massive project but the MTA knows it's got to get done, so does the federal government. I'm assuming we should see progress pick up again soon as drilling and blasting work, deep bore mining and cut and cover construction will be resumed, to complete the project.

[CenSin]

Must read.

 

I was skimming through the latest posts by transit activist Ben Kabek from Second Ave Sagas concerning adocating for immediate funding for Phase 2 construction in a continuous manner after Phase 1 is open instead of decades of inactivity with the MTA with slow progress of Phase 2.

 

Apparently the MTA even got the attention of this (See last paragraph for what I've read about the 20 year plan for completion of the SAS, very likely all 4 phases of the SAS)

 

In his blog entry, on July 29th, he stated that representative Carolyn Maloney, who is advocating for completion of the SAS, will be given a report card grade of A+ for pushing to have the Second Ave Subway, Phase 1 open in late 2016. However he has given sharp criticisms on her dragging her feet on appropriating funding ASAP for Phase 2 construction in order to provide continuity.  Among other concerns that he has concerning Yorkshire Towers and the ongoing battle with the MTA over station placement with the 86th Street station.

 

To quote Ben Kabek from his entry:

 

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/07/29/what-rep-maloneys-second-ave-report-card-doesnt-say/

 

 

Ms. Maloney actually got the attention of Ben Kabek and read his comments. Hence she gave a response which lead to today's blog entries written by Mr. Kabek on Second Ave Sagas, as a response to her comments from the original post made yesterday on the site. as a result, Ben Kabek issued a follow up blog entry reflecting on her comments.

 

To quote what she said in return:

 

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/07/31/carolyn-maloney-and-the-second-ave-phase-ii-sagas/

 

 

From those comments Ben Kabek concluded that Phase 2 construction may indeed happen sooner then we think, if she can convince the Senate and House of representatives, as well as the lawmakers in Albany to push for funding, tapping into the monetary initiative on the part of President Obama Barack via the Federal Transit Administration, to increase funding for rail improvements and construction of new projects on the mass transit and rail networks in the United States in general.

 

Personally speaking as an average taxpaying straphanger, I'm not so sure with how quickly this can really happen with the beginning of Phase 2 construction. Remember that it is, there are still problems with the MTA capital budget which currently stands @ 12 billion dollars if I'm correct, and the funds that they have currently.

 

The MTA is burning the candle at both ends in terms of capital construction projects such as the extension, the SAS as a given, two long term emergency overhauls of underwater tubes in effect for the IND Crosstown Line with the   (Greenpoint Tubes) and now the as well. (Montague tubes) both due to severe salt water corrosion which is causing ever-continuous and severe chemical related reactions of steel, deterioration of electrical equipment, communication lines, trackbed damage, and even the iron rings surrounding the tubes themselves, particularly with the Montague St tubes among other things....

 

Not to mention purchases of new rolling stock for the A and B division (i.e R188's, and the tentative R179 order currently in development by Bombardiar) and the LIRR East Side Access project construction, which is in suspended motion as it is now, because of lack of funding, and monetary problems.

 

I'm going to follow with this and see if Mr. Ben Kabek can indeed catch the attention of the state government, The continued advocating on the part of Ms. Maloney for overseeing the completion of Phase 1 and 2 in a timely fashion, as well as, the MTA and make Phase 2 a reality, as a continuity of construction up to 125th Street.

 

I will note that MTA Chairman Pendergrast has recently appointed a committee to finalize a 20 year need assessment plan by this fall, apparently to commit to compete all 4 phases of the SAS and activate the all the way to Hanover Square. 

 

So in short, phase 2 just may be open in a decade in change, from what transpired between Ben Kabek and Representative Maloney.

This has been the most exciting news regarding the Second Avenue Subway ever—that it'll actually move past phase 1 in our lifetime!

[AndrewJC]

It's meant to bring Midtown LIRR workers closer to their offices (nearly all the jobs are located in a 15 minute walk around Grand Central), and has the side effect of relieving congestion due to less traffic from Penn.

 

E congestion in the reverse-peak direction, to clarify - there's currently a lot of traffic from 34th to the two East 53rd stations.

 

"Nearly all the jobs" is quite an exaggeration - Midtown East certainly has a greater concentration of jobs than the Penn Station area, but it doesn't have anywhere close to all the jobs.

 

This has been the most exciting news regarding the Second Avenue Subway ever—that it'll actually move past phase 1 in our lifetime!

 

If funding is obtained. Don't celebrate just yet.

[CenSin]

If funding is obtained. Don't celebrate just yet.

It still stirs the pot more than anything else we've heard considering the fact that most of the news since inception has been bad—cutting back on tracks, spacing out stations further apart, skimping on provisions for future expansion, etc.

[Fresh Pond]

What is QBL?

Queens Blvd Line

[Wallyhorse]

Scanned a copy of the PDF. Credits to the ..........

 

http://roadcruiser1.deviantart.com/art/Second-Avenue-Subway-Nassau-Street-Alternative-388026961?ga_submit_new=10%253A1374732505

 

This looks like what I would be looking at doing.  As I would do it, the SAS would connect to the Nassau Line west of the Bowery station and come in on the "express" tracks at Canal before moving to the wall tracks south of Canal Street (this also means the currently-abandoned eastbound platforms at Canal and Bowery would both need to be reopened and renovated as the would go back to being on its old setup at Canal and Bowery).

 

As for extending the Nassau line stations to accommodate 10-car trains, that is something I would be looking to do anyway independent of any SAS work since that would actually involve lengthening all of those stations plus at least those stations that currently serves.  This would allow the to go to 10-car trains, which would help along Queens Boulevard, which would be the actual reason for doing such (allowing the to then also when needed go to Chambers as a 10-car train).

[CenSin]

This looks like what I would be looking at doing.  As I would do it, the SAS would connect to the Nassau Line west of the Bowery station and come in on the "express" tracks at Canal before moving to the wall tracks south of Canal Street (this also means the currently-abandoned eastbound platforms at Canal and Bowery would both need to be reopened and renovated as the would go back to being on its old setup at Canal and Bowery).

 

As for extending the Nassau line stations to accommodate 10-car trains, that is something I would be looking to do anyway independent of any SAS work since that would actually involve lengthening all of those stations plus at least those stations that currently serves.  This would allow the to go to 10-car trains, which would help along Queens Boulevard, which would be the actual reason for doing such (allowing the to then also when needed go to Chambers as a 10-car train).

Did you read anything else that was posted before your post?

[Trainmaster5]

 

As for extending the Nassau line stations to accommodate 10-car trains, that is something I would be looking to do anyway independent of any SAS work since that would actually involve lengthening all of those stations plus at least those stations that currently serves.  This would allow the to go to 10-car trains, which would help along Queens Boulevard, which would be the actual reason for doing such (allowing the to then also when needed go to Chambers as a 10-car train).

How many stations are there between Metropolitan Ave and Essex St that can handle 10 car trains? How many can be extended? At what cost? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[RTOPRO]

Extending to 10 cars on the structure? Wow that's pricey and I have now seen all of the fantasy proposals I could see.