Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[AndrewJC]

It still stirs the pot more than anything else we've heard considering the fact that most of the news since inception has been bad—cutting back on tracks, spacing out stations further apart, skimping on provisions for future expansion, etc.

 

Can't argue with you there!

[Roadcruiser1]

This looks like what I would be looking at doing.  As I would do it, the SAS would connect to the Nassau Line west of the Bowery station and come in on the "express" tracks at Canal before moving to the wall tracks south of Canal Street (this also means the currently-abandoned eastbound platforms at Canal and Bowery would both need to be reopened and renovated as the would go back to being on its old setup at Canal and Bowery).

 

As for extending the Nassau line stations to accommodate 10-car trains, that is something I would be looking to do anyway independent of any SAS work since that would actually involve lengthening all of those stations plus at least those stations that currently serves.  This would allow the to go to 10-car trains, which would help along Queens Boulevard, which would be the actual reason for doing such (allowing the to then also when needed go to Chambers as a 10-car train).

 

http://www.humorsharing.com/media/comment/1301/what_is_facepalm_50ff9ebd25187.jpg

 

 

Please get a life or at least a girlfriend..........

Edited August 4, 2013 by Roadcruiser1

[w8Hou]

This has been the most exciting news regarding the Second Avenue Subway ever—that it'll actually move past phase 1 in our lifetime!

we will have to wait for the next MTA Capital Program to see if they have added money for phase 2. The exciting news should be when it is open for real.

[w8Hou]

Scanned a copy of the PDF. Credits to the ..........

 

http://roadcruiser1.deviantart.com/art/Second-Avenue-Subway-Nassau-Street-Alternative-388026961?ga_submit_new=10%253A1374732505

 

That map has changed, I think its just the proposal way back in early 2000s. MTA is fully committed to build a true SAS from Seaport to 125. There is plans for 125 St/Lex on 125 St to near Lenox Av for trail tracks, maybe a future crosstown 125St?

[Roadcruiser1]

That map has changed, I think its just the proposal way back in early 2000s. MTA is fully committed to build a true SAS from Seaport to 125. There is plans for 125 St/Lex on 125 St to near Lenox Av for trail tracks, maybe a future crosstown 125St?

 

Not really. Drilling underneath a fault line isn't really a great idea..........

[Far Rock Depot]

The more recent plan calls for a small lay up area and possible extension north just north of the curve at 125th. 

 

And with today's technology, fault lines arent really a major factor. Earthquake prone cities have subways i.e. Tokyo, San Fran/Oakland, L.A. ...

[bobtehpanda]

 

That map has changed, I think its just the proposal way back in early 2000s. MTA is fully committed to build a true SAS from Seaport to 125. There is plans for 125 St/Lex on 125 St to near Lenox Av for trail tracks, maybe a future crosstown 125St?

 

 

 

Not really. Drilling underneath a fault line isn't really a great idea..........

 

to add to what far rock said, drilling alongside a fault line is much better than drilling through one.

 

also, let it be noted that it is impossible to drill under a fault, since by definition they extend deep into the earth's crust.

Edited August 5, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[Tokkemon]

Guys, stop acting like you know what you're talking about when it comes to fault lines and geology in general. That's a non-issue here because the engineers at the MTA work around it, and the host of other problems Upper Manhattan has in its topography.

[Far Rock Depot]

We know the MTA works around that issue like in other cities-as I have stated giving examples of earthquake-prone cities with subways. And for the record, I'm a former engineering major, so I do have SOME idea of what I'm talking about. 

[realizm]

We know the MTA works around that issue like in other cities-as I have stated giving examples of earthquake-prone cities with subways. And for the record, I'm a former engineering major, so I do have SOME idea of what I'm talking about. 

 

 

The more recent plan calls for a small lay up area and possible extension north just north of the curve at 125th. 

 

And with today's technology, fault lines arent really a major factor. Earthquake prone cities have subways i.e. Tokyo, San Fran/Oakland, L.A. ...

 

 

I'm all ears on your posts. I've been reading and pondering over this aspect of this discussion. That totally makes sense as far as I'm concerned in terms of fault lines and subway construction. From what I understand subway tunnels in such areas are built with more flexible materials to absorb tremors from fault creep that can occur. But that is the limit on my knowledge on this.

 

But yes I agree, in the sense that engineers have already implemented ways to construct tunnels in earthquake prone areas, by such techniques. In buildings for that matter, similar concept.

Edited August 6, 2013 by realizm

[Far Rock Depot]

The Bay Area tunnels are a perfect example. The are connected under the bay with some slack in between connected sections to even allow trains to roll thru during a quake. The '89 quake during that year's world series is a perfect example. Now fault line or not, NYC isnt earthquake prone. we dont hit mid to high range on the scale as it is. And even if we do get hit by one, our subway tunnels are the least of our worries. 

[RTOPRO]

You start treading a dangerous area when you say NYC is not earthquake prone. Which is false by the way. I guess maybe you mean not seismically active which would indicate that one does not occur very often or is rare then that would sound better.

 

The USGS ranks NYC and the immediate surrounding territory at the midway point in their scale as moderate risk. As you get further out that risks starts to drop off from moderate which is typical for the northeast.

 

NYC is long overdue for its own 5.0 quake and a 5.0 quake at 125th Street along Broadway could prove devastating as the 1 line structure was not built to give way in the direction in which the fault would shift back and forth during a quake.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand mostly and I've said it before and I'll say it again. The study was done and the line up was chosen for a combination of reasons. It's easy to armchair quarterback now and say what should be different without knowing why they chose to go with the line up as is for SAS.

[bobtehpanda]

You start treading a dangerous area when you say NYC is not earthquake prone. Which is false by the way. I guess maybe you mean not seismically active which would indicate that one does not occur very often or is rare then that would sound better.

 

The USGS ranks NYC and the immediate surrounding territory at the midway point in their scale as moderate risk. As you get further out that risks starts to drop off from moderate which is typical for the northeast.

 

NYC is long overdue for its own 5.0 quake and a 5.0 quake at 125th Street along Broadway could prove devastating as the 1 line structure was not built to give way in the direction in which the fault would shift back and forth during a quake.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand mostly and I've said it before and I'll say it again. The study was done and the line up was chosen for a combination of reasons. It's easy to armchair quarterback now and say what should be different without knowing why they chose to go with the line up as is for SAS.

 

Not to mention, the subway would probably be the least of our worries in the event of an earthquake (all the haphazardly placed utilities and unreinforced masonry in that area, Indian Point a couple miles away.)

 

A 125th crosstown line is a good idea, anyways, since it significantly improves mobility on that corridor and allows for easier intra-Bronx subway travel if one so desires.

[Eric B]

Always wondered why we could have such big earthquakes when we're in the middle of a plate.

[Far Rock Depot]

You start treading a dangerous area when you say NYC is not earthquake prone. Which is false by the way. I guess maybe you mean not seismically active which would indicate that one does not occur very often or is rare then that would sound better.

 

The USGS ranks NYC and the immediate surrounding territory at the midway point in their scale as moderate risk. As you get further out that risks starts to drop off from moderate which is typical for the northeast.

 

NYC is long overdue for its own 5.0 quake and a 5.0 quake at 125th Street along Broadway could prove devastating as the 1 line structure was not built to give way in the direction in which the fault would shift back and forth during a quake.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand mostly and I've said it before and I'll say it again. The study was done and the line up was chosen for a combination of reasons. It's easy to armchair quarterback now and say what should be different without knowing why they chose to go with the line up as is for SAS.

I do mean not seismically active. Its been since the 1800's I believe when we last had a moderate quake. As both me and bobtehpanda stated, the subways are the least of our worries when we do get hit. 

 

And I agree. The line up was already chosen for a combination of reasons. Look at the way the turn onto 125th was chosen for example. Most would wonder why have it turn slightly east then hook west? A greater turn radius is one. A more ergonomically fit flying junction can be another. Engineers do what they do for a reason. It could have also been one thats more cost effective.

"Every nut, every bolt, every screw costs money..." -Ray Burger, New Car Engineering

[RTOPRO]

I do mean not seismically active. Its been since the 1800's I believe when we last had a moderate quake. As both me and bobtehpanda stated, the subways are the least of our worries when we do get hit. 

 

And I agree. The line up was already chosen for a combination of reasons. Look at the way the turn onto 125th was chosen for example. Most would wonder why have it turn slightly east then hook west? A greater turn radius is one. A more ergonomically fit flying junction can be another. Engineers do what they do for a reason. It could have also been one thats more cost effective.

"Every nut, every bolt, every screw costs money..." -Ray Burger, New Car Engineering

Then I have to toss it back. Anywhere you find a fault is prone to earthquake activity. How often is a different story.

[Union Tpke]

Then I have to toss it back. Anywhere you find a fault is prone to earthquake activity. How often is a different story.

An article said that the 125 St station will be really deep because of the fault line.

[Far Rock Depot]

An article said that the 125 St station will be really deep because of the fault line.

not just the fault line, but its got to go under 3 levels of Lex's 125th St station. 

[Around the Horn]

You named the biggest factor of the flaw in your plan. 10 cars vs 8 cars. Take for instance transit policy. It is against the rules and regulations to lock out a car, or multiple cars or a section of

one car if a train over runs a station as a means of being able to open the doors that are on the

platform. One of the reasons is because it's

time consuming. The other reason is because of a massive amount of safety implications. If

something goes wrong in the lock out process it could cost a customer their life and cost an

employee his/her freedom. None of these possibilities are worth the savings you speak of

because in reality the purpose of building the

line out all the way to Hanover Square is to

keep an eye on future growth in areas where

current subway lines don't reach.

Uh no.If you read the PDF the stations at Canal,Chambers,Fulton,and Broad will be extended to 10 cars in order to fit the .Its part of the Nassau solution the MTA has included in the cost of the project and automatically give the access to the and even the tracks

[Wallyhorse]

Uh no.If you read the PDF the stations at Canal,Chambers,Fulton,and Broad will be extended to 10 cars in order to fit the .Its part of the Nassau solution the MTA has included in the cost of the project and automatically give the access to the and even the tracks

And as it is, I believe those stations can actually fit nine cars as it is (they used to fit eight 67' BMT Standards, so it would be a tight fit of nine 60' cars), so the extension would not be as much as some think.

[RTOPRO]

Uh no.If you read the PDF the stations at Canal,Chambers,Fulton,and Broad will be extended to 10 cars in order to fit the .Its part of the Nassau solution the MTA has included in the cost of the project and automatically give the access to the and even the tracks

I don't think you read what I was replying to which is the first problem.

 

The second problem is you accuse me of not reading the PDF (which I did) when you're the one reading it wrong. The stations you mentioned are apart of the Nassau option which they considered in the preliminary impact study. In the Final Impact Study it was decided to go with a newly built line to the Hanover Square. So yes, had they chose the Nassau options those stations would receive extensions yet they decided against the Nassau option meaning those stations will not get the extensions we are currently discussing to end unless something major changes politically. Hence we are talking fantasy when the reality is the Phases were decided upon and it's just a matter of building one phase, getting approval to build the next phase while finishing the current one.

 

In all honesty other than that I have no idea why you are even discussing the Nassau option as if it is one of the phases submitted to the feds for grant money approval.

[R32 3838]

Deleted

Edited August 17, 2013 by R32 3838

[Membrr]

is there any possibility that the train will be up and running in couple more years ?

[Around the Horn]

The only SAS for the next 10 years will be Steven A Smith

[bobtehpanda]

is there any possibility that the train will be up and running in couple more years ?

 

You'll get the stubway in about 2016-ish (that's the latest forecasted opening date, right?)