BrooklynIRT Posted May 12, 2012 Share #1 Posted May 12, 2012 So Allan Rosen asked this question on Sheepshead Bites; if any of you cats could answer it that would be nice. Thanks. "Why is it that in the 1950s/1960s the only times during which the center tracks were used to allow trains to bypass DeKalb were the rush hours? If I remember correctly the only trains that skipped DeKalb then were the Sea Beach trains. No trains skipped DeKalb on the weekends. And I bet they even operated more trains then. So now why do both the and have to skip DeKalb on the weekends?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RtrainBlues Posted May 12, 2012 Share #2 Posted May 12, 2012 Since it causes major congestion with the D, Q and the R at DeKalb. I hated the recent weekends a few months ago when the N train was stopping at DeKalb when the Q shuttle buses were running on weekends, since that one extra stop slowed the train down considerably and often caused us to miss the 95th-St bound R train further up the line. What if an uptown N and R both arrive at Atlantic-Pacific at the same time? Now only one can go first. Let's say the R is delayed 2 minutes because of this. What if the N goes first, but is held up by the Q entering DeKalb? So the N is delayed 2 minutes, and the R is delayed an additional 2 minutes. The delays cascade and cascade and cascade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted May 12, 2012 Share #3 Posted May 12, 2012 IIRC the Sea Beach and West End expresses always bypassed DeKalb during the M-F rush hours back then .It was probably done to ease the congestion at the DeKalb Ave chokepoint. There were four services stopping there during rush hours, the Brighton local-"QT", Brighton express-"Q", Fourth Ave local-"RR", and West End local-"TT". On weekends the West End express did stop there but the Brighton express and West End local didn't operate which eased the congestion problem. Hope this helps somewhat. What the rationale for today's pattern is I don't know. Perhaps a crew member from that division could shed some light on the subject. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted May 12, 2012 Share #4 Posted May 12, 2012 In rush hours, I know the sea beach skipped DeKalb. There were times when there was no West End express and only a local during rush hours. Then the West End stopped at DeKalb. How is what you describe on weekends then different now? There still is no Brighton Express on weekends and the West End stopped at DeKalb. The question is why can't that be done now? Rtrainblues asks what if an N and R arrive at DeKalb at the same time? How likely is that on weekends is that if they are not scheduled that way? The reason there was a problem when the Q wasn't running was that they were both scheduled to arrive at Pacific at the same time for a transfer. They weren't going to rewrite the schedule for one weekend. So what I am saying is instead of scheduling the N and R to arrive at Pacific at the same time instead schedule the D and Q to arrive at the same time at DeKalb or do both if possible. There is no problem with Brighton trains merging at Prospect Park on weekdays because they are scheduled to arrive at different times, so there shouldn't be a problem at Pacific either on weekends because the frequency is not hat great. That's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share #5 Posted May 12, 2012 The would have to stop on the same track as the at DeKalb in both directions. They could never be there at the same time. One would have to follow the other. The and can be in DeKalb at the same time, but that is not very useful since they are both BMT Broadway services and this already happens with the current service pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted May 12, 2012 Share #6 Posted May 12, 2012 Trainmaster best explained it; it could be summed up as: the ideal was for everything to stop at DeKalb; but there wasn't the capacity for it, so the 4th Avenue expresses had to use the bypass during busy periods, but stopped there other times when there was capacity. In recent times, the policy has been to use switches less; especially the slow ones at Pacific, so now, the bypass is used any time there is express service, which is all times except nights (19/7). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 12, 2012 Share #7 Posted May 12, 2012 The would have to stop on the same track as the at DeKalb in both directions. They could never be there at the same time. One would have to follow the other. The and can be in DeKalb at the same time, but that is not very useful since they are both BMT Broadway services and this already happens with the current service pattern. The doesn't serve Lower Manhattan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share #8 Posted May 12, 2012 What Eric B said about the switches was one of the possible reasons I had for why they do not have the stop at DeKalb on the weekends. Makes even more sense since those switches are slow; the question is whether the benefits outweigh the costs (dealing with more switches, which are slow in this case). Eric, by slow do you mean that it takes a minute for the trains to go over the switches or that more time has to pass after a train goes over them before they can be moved? Checkmate, I meant it was not useful for 6th Ave-Broadway transfers. I was a bit unclear because I posted that message rather hurriedly. They already have the cross-platform transfer to the Lower Manhattan service in plac anyway, so it is all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted May 12, 2012 Share #9 Posted May 12, 2012 The doesn't serve Lower Manhattan. And many of the passengers transfer at Atlantic Av for IRT services that do go there, and serve lower Manhattan light years better than the . Those that insist for the are going to Whitehall St for the Ferry, or to Jay St for the for transfer. Ill tell you a quick story that happened yesterday. I was one of those baseball specials, they decided to make me do a stop at Dekalb since the had the switch for the bypass and was presently going into that area, and the going thru to Stillwell was right behind me on the bridge as is customary (at the moment, they let baseball specials leave 161 when a regularly scheduled train gets to 170). I went into Dekalb to let that behind me go in front. Yes it takes that long. I actually made a connection with a at Dekalb and was surprised they didnt let him go first (he aired it out on the radio). Anyway, they decided to put me back on the express track so I can terminate at 36st. It took about 5 mins to go one stop since the switch into Pacific is guarded by wheel detectors. Instead of the normal 10-12 I do on switches, I went 5mph as I was not about to let those stupid things trip me. Going the other way no wheel detectors, but that switch is slow and timed as well, and any northbound local would have to wait practically until the train is entering Dekalb. The best way to allow all the services to stop at Dekalb is to have them all go local on 4Av. This is just a reminder... back in the 1950s trains were shorter (especially on weekends) so merging delays was somewhat less. Everything in the corridor is full length now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share #10 Posted May 12, 2012 How do you know whether switches have wheel detectors? Is there any way for me to tell by just looking at a switch in person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Lexington Ave Posted May 12, 2012 Share #11 Posted May 12, 2012 How do you know whether switches have wheel detectors? Is there any way for me to tell by just looking at a switch in person? If I'm not mistaken there are signs right before them that say WD and flashing lights. Correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted May 13, 2012 Share #12 Posted May 13, 2012 Eric, by slow do you mean that it takes a minute for the trains to go over the switches or that more time has to pass after a train goes over them before they can be moved?Slow to go over them. Especially, southbound. (Where it's enforced by a wheel detector, requiring even slower than speed limit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted May 13, 2012 Share #13 Posted May 13, 2012 Gold Street interlocking and the interlockings between Dekalb and Atlantic are the linch pin of the BMT. If something goes wrong there, it can have reprocusions that would effect nearly every line on the B division. The less they have to move those switcheds, the better. simpler, basicly routing plans lead to much less mess, or, as a wise man once said... "The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted May 13, 2012 Share #14 Posted May 13, 2012 I think it was in 1997 when a train derailed around Dekalb. I dunno if this was one of the reasons they don't have trains off the bridge heading to 4th av via express stop at Dekalb anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Express Posted May 13, 2012 Share #15 Posted May 13, 2012 The reason they do this is because all trains coming in from the Bridge must stop on the platform. All trains coming from the tunnel must stop on the platform. The would in essence be going out of its way to get to somewhere unnecessary. They would have to switch onto the track and then back onto their track just to stop at DeKalb Av, holding up traffic. Have a look at the map; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted May 14, 2012 Share #16 Posted May 14, 2012 Like I said, the only way to have the service stop at Dekalb with the all on the same platform is to send them local on 4Av in both directions. So if you want all the services to stop at Dekalb, they must all be local on 4Av. Can't have them stop there and then have them go express for the switch reasons already mentioned. 4Av local stations don't need all the service, either. I wont even mention but I will that the amount of wrong route incidents will go up as well on the bridge services. To avoid this and congestion at Dekalb, would change the weekend service pattern to similar to the way it is on midnights = 4Av local then normal, 4Av local via tunnel, Broadway local to Whitehall St, and the Bay Ridge shuttle on the other end since it would have the express tracks to itself from 59 to north of 36. Then everything can stop at Dekalb without a problem, but that is a service cut in my book. The only reason a few 's late evening stop at Dekalb then go over the bridge was because they were 4Av local in the first place, right before tunnel service starts. This cuts the headway on the 4Av express tracks in half, allowing the work trains more space to stack up and get where they have to go. Southbound they continue express to at least 36th until tunnel service begins as there's no work trains going that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Lexington Ave Posted May 14, 2012 Share #17 Posted May 14, 2012 Like I said, the only way to have the service stop at Dekalb with the all on the same platform is to send them local on 4Av in both directions. So if you want all the services to stop at Dekalb, they must all be local on 4Av. Can't have them stop there and then have them go express for the switch reasons already mentioned. 4Av local stations don't need all the service, either. I wont even mention but I will that the amount of wrong route incidents will go up as well on the bridge services. To avoid this and congestion at Dekalb, would change the weekend service pattern to similar to the way it is on midnights = 4Av local then normal, 4Av local via tunnel, Broadway local to Whitehall St, and the Bay Ridge shuttle on the other end since it would have the express tracks to itself from 59 to north of 36. Then everything can stop at Dekalb without a problem, but that is a service cut in my book. The only reason a few 's late evening stop at Dekalb then go over the bridge was because they were 4Av local in the first place, right before tunnel service starts. This cuts the headway on the 4Av express tracks in half, allowing the work trains more space to stack up and get where they have to go. Southbound they continue express to at least 36th until tunnel service begins as there's no work trains going that direction. How often do those wrong route incidents occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted May 15, 2012 Share #18 Posted May 15, 2012 1 is already too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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