How Will the MTA Spend its New Found Money?

[Threxx]

Wasnt the X25 a Manhattan route?

 

It was an express route between the Financial District and Grand Central I believe... it was useful as an alternative to the , , and .

 

If any of the Manhattan expresses return, it should be the X90.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wasnt the X25 a Manhattan route?

That's correct... It was out of Ulmer Park and I used it a few times from Downtown to Grand Central... It actually did get good use at times because it's especially useful for folks working by the World Financial Center who aren't close to the subway, so I would restore it.

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x025cur.pdf

[Culver]

That's correct... It was out of Ulmer Park and I used it a few times from Downtown to Grand Central... It actually did get good use at times because it's especially useful for folks working by the World Financial Center who aren't close to the subway, so I would restore it.

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x025cur.pdf

How do you define good use?

http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_bus.htm

Eight runs a day and 20-30 people per day total. No need for it. A foam route.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

How do you define good use?

http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_bus.htm

Eight runs a day and 20-30 people per day total. No need for it. A foam route.

The route had good ridership until the economy tanked.  A better economy and more marketing would allow the route to be better used.  There are people that would be willing to pay $6.00, especially more affluent folks like the ones that use MetroNorth from Riverdale and affluent parts of Westchester (i.e. Larchmont, Scarsdale, Rye, etc.)  and Connecticut (i.e. Greenwich, Bridgeport-Stamford, etc.).  Ridership on MetroNorth at the Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale stations has continued to see increased ridership and part of that comes from the (MTA)'s aggressive advertising in Riverdale. I see them up at most of the bus shelters in my neigborhood.  Why? Because they know there's a market here in Riverdale.  Same thing with the X25.

 

They market MetroNorth in Riverdale as being for folks who are in a hurry and as something that is fast, even though we have three express buses. They could market the X25 as being fast and comfortable for those coming from Grand Central that need to go Downtown and they should target MetroNorth riders.

[Culver]

The route had good ridership until the economy tanked.  A better economy and more marketing would allow the route to be better used.  There are people that would be willing to pay $6.00, especially more affluent folks like the ones that use MetroNorth from Riverdale, Westchester, and Connecticut.  Ridership on MetroNorth at the Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale stations has continued to see increased ridership and part of that comes from the (MTA)'s agressive advertising in Riverdale.  Why? Because they know there's a market there.  Same thing with the X25.

It would need an insane influx of riders. Best number was 2007 (before shit went down, in the good times) with 32 riders That's four people a bus. So you only need to get five times the ridership. Good luck with that. It's the definition of waste.

[Q43LTD]

You made somebody happy

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It would need an insane influx of riders. Best number was 2007 (before shit went down, in the good times) with 32 riders That's four people a bus. So you only need to get five times the ridership. Good luck with that. It's the definition of waste.

Like I said, it wasn't well advertised.  Most express buses aren't well advertised.... Here in Riverdale our express buses are advertised by Columbia University (The Arbor - A condominum bought by Columbia to house grad students here in Riverdale), Wave Hill and other prestigious private institutions, so that helps our ridership to grown unlike other areas.

[Culver]

Like I said, it wasn't well advertised.  Most express buses aren't well advertised.... Here in Riverdale our express buses are advertised by Columbia University (The Arbor - A condominum bought by Columbia to house grad students here in Riverdale), Wave Hill and other prestigious private institutions, so that helps our ridership to grown unlike other areas.

Also, it was essentially an express-bus-fare shuttle bus. That might have had something to do with nobody riding it.

[LRG]

I just have one question: if the X25 was based out of Brooklyn, I'm absolutely sure those buses didn't just deadhead into Manhattan, do it's one trip and then deadhead back. Did they turn into X27s or X28s?

 

And I'm more in support of bringing back the X90 over the X25, the latter was a waste.

[Culver]

I just have one question: if the X25 was based out of Brooklyn, I'm absolutely sure those buses didn't just deadhead into Manhattan, do it's one trip and then deadhead back. Did they turn into X27s or X28s?

 

And I'm more in support of bringing back the X90 over the X25, the latter was a waste.

X90 at least connected a residential area with midtown and downtown. I can see them bringing that back.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Also, it was essentially an express-bus-fare shuttle bus. That might have had something to do with nobody riding it.

Well yeah that's the point... The alternative would be the overcrowded subway, but for those that want more comfort they had the express bus.  That's why I said it was really geared for MetroNorth folks. 

 

I just have one question: if the X25 was based out of Brooklyn, I'm absolutely sure those buses didn't just deadhead into Manhattan, do it's one trip and then deadhead back. Did they turn into X27s or X28s?

 

And I'm more in support of bringing back the X90 over the X25, the latter was a waste.

Of course... They turn into X27's, X28's, etc., as it was based out of Ulmer Park hence why the express bus schedule for the X25, X27, X28, X29, X37 and X38 was one schedule.  Actually I see a lot of express buses laid up over by Tuskegee Airmen Depot in the mornings when I'm on the BxM1 or BxM2. I'll see them from various depots making their way over there.   Far Rockaway, Spring Creek, etc.  Some of them stay in Manhattan to make sure they make the return trips on time I would imagine, but you do have a lot of them that make their way from the depot.  If you want to get a feel for how many express bus deadhead to and from a depot, Richmond Avenue would be a good place to start.  I was waiting for an X17 one morning a while back and I couldn't how many express buses were deadheading back to Yukon Depot.  

[Culver]

Well yeah that's the point... The alternative would be the overcrowded subway, but for those that want more comfort they had the express bus.  That's why I said it was really geared for MetroNorth folks. 

 

Looks like not that many people wanted the extra comfort...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

X90 at least connected a residential area with midtown and downtown. I can see them bringing that back.

The X90 would take some arm twisting because the has really sold itself on that damn M15SBS being the answer for everything and I would disagree.  The X90 should return with fewer runs and the X25 could return ONLY IF it was determined that a market would be there for it, which I believe there is one if advertised to the right folks.  I'm sure they could tell who was using the old X25... 

 

Looks like not that many people wanted the extra comfort...

Like I said, if marketed properly it's possible.  Many of us in Riverdale prefer the express bus over MetroNorth, but the knows that there's still a market for MetroNorth in Riverdale so it's been aggressively advertising the service and added more frequent service to make it more appealing and so more folks are using it at the Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale stations.

[Interested Rider]

I would like to discuss the subject of managers working and not working that was raised in his blog.

 

To understand the reasoning behind this, you have to start by looking at private industry where the bottom line is most important. It is the profit margin that is key and if a person does not produce then the person is terminated.

In any governmental agency, this does not exist as the budget is set by another level of government and if the agency receives less money, then it makes due with it by not hiring or closing down units. The agency is therefore dependent on other political entities for its survival and for funds.

 

This places "managers" in a difficult position and one that will influence the manager's work habits. If the person was hired based on merit and from the respective Civil Service List, then it is quite "possible" that the person would be  the manager that works 11 hours a day and takes an interest in doing the best possible job. The reason I placed the word "possible" in quotes as when hiring is done from a civil service list, the employee hired could be the best or the worst.  Unfortunately, the era of being appointed based on merit in civil service has passed and managers have more leeway in hiring regardless of the civil service law.

 

Then there are those that are hired for their political connections and again it can be the best or the worst, with the latter being more common in the middle and higher level managerial positions. Some are family members of the politician, some are friends or someone that have contributed something to his or her campaign that would fit this definition. (For the record both political parties have been doing this for years with no real difference in the quality of the employees.)  In the 1970's the transit system was on its second layer of bureaucracy as it had the city managers from original  Transit Authority and the second layer of bureaucracy from the MTA. (If you read SubChat or BusChat you will note that many of the members have posted this information) Unlike the person that came off the Civil Service List, this person's loyalty is to their political connection, The person knows that no matter if he/she does not do a good job , he/she  will still be rewarded or transferred to another 'safe" job. 

 

This places the manager who was hired on merit in a quandary as the question becomes why should he/she work long hours as the person with the political connections is able to do virtually nothing. While many employees will continue to work as hard as they can for their own satisfaction, some will see this and say if he can get away with it, then so can I. There is no incentive here for doing additional work as the two employees will receive the same pay regardless of work performance. If the civil service employee is within five years of retirement then the only incentive is retirement, nothing else.

 

Every time I hear that someone in government is proposing "incentive pay". I cringe as if anything it will create further fracturing of the work environment, it is this suggestion. The employee who is working 11 hours a day may get rewarded,  but the one with the political connection will get the raise regardless of whether the employee does the work or not. If anything, I think that the rank and file workers deserve a raise first as they spend their time trying to do the work that the managers have thought of in their offices and in many cases, not even pretested and tested in the field prior to implementation. 

 

While I would like to see the funds used to improve service, I think that some may go for improvements but the major part will go to pay for general operations, nothing else

 

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

Looks like not that many people wanted the extra comfort...

 

Nah, MTA is just horrendous at promoting its services if they don't have a SBS sticker on them. It's why very few people know anything about express buses except the fact that a one-way costs $6, and why almost no one in Queens or the Bronx really knows what CityTicket is.

 

If the MTA decided to use some of the empty bus shelter ad space to promote bus routes, and decided to use the MTA promotional posters on the subway for something other than SBS services or MTACC projects, then we would see a corresponding increase in service usage. (This would be particularly effective with the new half-hour routes that they're trying to launch - imagine an ad-sized poster promoting a new service to LIC at Marcy.)

 

In particular, express bus routes need separate promotional materials and possibly a separate bus map - there is nothing that indicates to the average customer that these can be more useful and convenient than the local routes, besides the fact that the seats aren't plastic. Actually, in some places the express buses have LESS information than the local bus routes - no guide-a-rides, bus schedules, or maps, just a bus pole with a sign that says "Midtown", wherever in Midtown that might actually be.

[Culver]

Nah, MTA is just horrendous at promoting its services if they don't have a SBS sticker on them. It's why very few people know anything about express buses except the fact that a one-way costs $6, and why almost no one in Queens or the Bronx really knows what CityTicket is.

 

If the MTA decided to use some of the empty bus shelter ad space to promote bus routes, and decided to use the MTA promotional posters on the subway for something other than SBS services or MTACC projects, then we would see a corresponding increase in service usage. (This would be particularly effective with the new half-hour routes that they're trying to launch - imagine an ad-sized poster promoting a new service to LIC at Marcy.)

 

In particular, express bus routes need separate promotional materials and possibly a separate bus map - there is nothing that indicates to the average customer that these can be more useful and convenient than the local routes, besides the fact that the seats aren't plastic. Actually, in some places the express buses have LESS information than the local bus routes - no guide-a-rides, bus schedules, or maps, just a bus pole with a sign that says "Midtown", wherever in Midtown that might actually be.

It was a shuttle with an express fare. Four riders a run isn't bad promotion, it's a bad product.

[BrooklynBus]

I would like to discuss the subject of managers working and not working that was raised in his blog.

 

To understand the reasoning behind this, you have to start by looking at private industry where the bottom line is most important. It is the profit margin that is key and if a person does not produce then the person is terminated.

In any governmental agency, this does not exist as the budget is set by another level of government and if the agency receives less money, then it makes due with it by not hiring or closing down units. The agency is therefore dependent on other political entities for its survival and for funds.

 

This places "managers" in a difficult position and one that will influence the manager's work habits. If the person was hired based on merit and from the respective Civil Service List, then it is quite "possible" that the person would be  the manager that works 11 hours a day and takes an interest in doing the best possible job. The reason I placed the word "possible" in quotes as when hiring is done from a civil service list, the employee hired could be the best or the worst.  Unfortunately, the era of being appointed based on merit in civil service has passed and managers have more leeway in hiring regardless of the civil service law.

 

Then there are those that are hired for their political connections and again it can be the best or the worst, with the latter being more common in the middle and higher level managerial positions. Some are family members of the politician, some are friends or someone that have contributed something to his or her campaign that would fit this definition. (For the record both political parties have been doing this for years with no real difference in the quality of the employees.)  In the 1970's the transit system was on its second layer of bureaucracy as it had the city managers from original  Transit Authority and the second layer of bureaucracy from the MTA. (If you read SubChat or BusChat you will note that many of the members have posted this information) Unlike the person that came off the Civil Service List, this person's loyalty is to their political connection, The person knows that no matter if he/she does not do a good job , he/she  will still be rewarded or transferred to another 'safe" job. 

 

This places the manager who was hired on merit in a quandary as the question becomes why should he/she work long hours as the person with the political connections is able to do virtually nothing. While many employees will continue to work as hard as they can for their own satisfaction, some will see this and say if he can get away with it, then so can I. There is no incentive here for doing additional work as the two employees will receive the same pay regardless of work performance. If the civil service employee is within five years of retirement then the only incentive is retirement, nothing else.

 

Every time I hear that someone in government is proposing "incentive pay". I cringe as if anything it will create further fracturing of the work environment, it is this suggestion. The employee who is working 11 hours a day may get rewarded,  but the one with the political connection will get the raise regardless of whether the employee does the work or not. If anything, I think that the rank and file workers deserve a raise first as they spend their time trying to do the work that the managers have thought of in their offices and in many cases, not even pretested and tested in the field prior to implementation. 

 

While I would like to see the funds used to improve service, I think that some may go for improvements but the major part will go to pay for general operations, nothing else

I only want to say that hiring managers who are civil service has been non-existent in the MTA for some time now. Everyone is provisional. Only the Operating and Supervisory positions are still civil service positions. When I retired over 7 years ago already there weren't any civil service managers left. I took and passed a managerial test. The entire process took seven years. It was a promotional test and I was the only one on the list. My boss refused to give me the civil service position citing the one and three rule to bypass me although there was no one else to appoint. He had no problem in giving me the promotion provisionally, but refused to appoint me through civil service. I could have switched departments and bumped the person already holding the position there, but if I did do that I wouldn't have a single friend there and they would seek to get rid of me from day 1, so I stayed where I was provisionally.

 

How hard you work all depends on how your boss treats you and if he appreciates you. You could work 11 hours a day and your boss could view that as you being inefficient because you can't complete all your work in 7 hours and not be nice to you and take you for granted. Another manager might appreciate the extra hours and view you as very dedicated and show his appreciation with high ratings and merit increases. If you work hard, are not rewarded and see others who do poor work get promoted, while you are bypassed, that will affect your performance. Everything depends on your immediate supervisor. Some are lucky. Others are not.

[qjtransitmaster]

The X90 would take some arm twisting because the has really sold itself on that damn M15SBS being the answer for everything and I would disagree.  The X90 should return with fewer runs and the X25 could return ONLY IF it was determined that a market would be there for it, which I believe there is one if advertised to the right folks.  I'm sure they could tell who was using the old X25... 

 

 

Like I said, if marketed properly it's possible.  Many of us in Riverdale prefer the express bus over MetroNorth, but the knows that there's still a market for MetroNorth in Riverdale so it's been aggressively advertising the service and added more frequent service to make it more appealing and so more folks are using it at the Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale stations.

Good lord let it go there is no market for X25 there never was one ever drop it nobody was interested and nobody will become interested in this bus ever what point of abysmal ridership seems to go over your head? If you are that desperate here is a way extend 3rd ave QM4s  or even QM2 to downtown via X25 routing done you eliminate the 2 stops at 51st and 56th but then those QM4 folks no longer need to transfer to get to downtown.  The routing can be via 3rd ave then discard 51st and 56th instead use 44th to 2nd ave to 42nd new stop on 42nd at 2nd then via FDR directly via service rd then on FDR express since there is no southbound 42nd entrance it's manhattan stops in midtown become pickup and drop off it would be a much cheaper way to operate service along X25's route. Heck tweaking QM2 or 4's 3rd ave service can replace the X25 completely without the x25's high cost per passenger. Fare for boarding in midtown manhattan southbound will be $2.50 local fare so people would actually consider it an option. Northbound you pay to get off your local fare. Anyone boarding in midtown pays full express fare enforced with paper like ticket looking like a paper transfer which you dip as you leave of give to bus op to do so confirming your going to queens if you boarded in downtown either pay full there or when you deboard if you don't. 

 

Or better idea lets not bother bringing back the bus nobody was even interested in at all.

 

How do you define good use?

http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_bus.htm

Eight runs a day and 20-30 people per day total. No need for it. A foam route.

 

FOAM not even the proper term It was a FAIL ROUTE at least a FOAM route will carry some riders or have decent ridership this line had NONE JUST AIR. Drivers would nickname it AIR BUS cause it carried nobody practically. Culver when it comes to express buses there is no reasoning with VG8 even if it carries nothing VG8 would fight to keep it from elimination even if it's ridership was abysmal he uses random excuses as to why it failed or why it should stay even if the route is proven useless. QM22 had more people than X25 and QM22 was an overpriced Q32 practically and only had 2 trips.

It was an express route between the Financial District and Grand Central I believe... it was useful as an alternative to the , , and .

 

If any of the Manhattan expresses return, it should be the X90.

Useful as in every 30 mins yeah real useful NOT. X90 however was useful it should have been merged with select trips from some BXM lines or became a variant of one of the BXM lines. In theory if merged with BXM18 it's combined ridership would be around literally over 900 it would end up SRO and need 20 to 15 min service rather than only 7 trips it would need much more and it would surpass BXM3 as well. Plus with NYC subsidy X90 could have been saved via merger with one of the weaker BXM lines. I mean weak. X90 even had more riders than BXM4 which still runs with extensive service that is doesn't deserve.

VG8 quote

That's correct... It was out of Ulmer Park and I used it a few times from Downtown to Grand Central... It actually did get good use at times because it's especially useful for folks working by the World Financial Center who aren't close to the subway, so I would restore it.

 

Your completely out of your mind it had a cost of $80 per passenger it made the BXM4 look profitable. Unless you plan on adding reverse service to one of the SI express lines via X25 route forget it get realistic here literally nobody used it. That bus did nothing for people nobody was interested in that bus period if it was advertised people still won't use it $6 to reach downtown from grand central via some bus that runs every 30 mins and is not even that much faster than the lex line subway which has & trains running every 3 mins or less which is only $2.50. So $6 for a bus running every 30 mins that is not even that much faster vs $2.50 subway which runs every 3 mins and is even with delays as fast as the bus  sorry sir that is a bad deal. MTA will never restore a bus with an operating cost of $80+ that is insanity.

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x025cur.pdf

[Stengel Depot]

They should start settling the contracts with its employees!!!!

[checkmatechamp13]

compared to the joke that is the bxm4 X29 is very efficient extremely efficient actually when compared to the BXM4.

 

The X29 was efficient even compared with the average express bus.

 

How do you define good use?

http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_bus.htm

Eight runs a day and 20-30 people per day total. No need for it. A foam route.

 

For what it's worth, they were UP express buses (X29s) deadheading back to Brooklyn. I'm wondering why the cost per passenger was so high, because they should've really only calculated the marginal cost per passenger (that results from the extra distance and time).

 

It also used to have a longer span and used to run every 15 minutes, so maybe at one time, it did have reasonable ridership.

 

There are people that would be willing to pay $6.00, especially more affluent folks like the ones that use MetroNorth from Riverdale and affluent parts of Westchester (i.e. Larchmont, Scarsdale, Rye, etc.) and Connecticut (i.e. Greenwich, Bridgeport-Stamford, etc.).

 

Bridgeport is affluent?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Bridgeport is affluent?

I don't recall saying Bridgeport as in the city... I said Bridgeport-Stamford meaning the metropolitan area....

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2012/02/southwest-connecticut-heads-list-of.html

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Culver when it comes to express buses there is no reasoning with VG8 even if it carries nothing VG8 would fight to keep it from elimination even if it's ridership was abysmal he uses random excuses as to why it failed or why it should stay even if the route is proven useless. QM22 had more people than X25 and QM22 was an overpriced Q32 practically and only had 2 trips.

That's because I've lived in areas where buses were the sole form of transportation so knowing how difficult commutes can be without them, naturally I would not call for cutting them unless it's necessary.  Unlike you I actually think about the people that rely on the service, regardless of how many there may be.  Most routes don't just have service for a reason.  At some point a lot of them were good routes, so before eliminating them I think it's reasonable to first try to understand why ridership went down and it always because the bus route is "slow" or "useless". It could simply be a question of reliability, or the economy, but it's best to know why before calling for it to be axed.

[qjtransitmaster]

 

That's because I've lived in areas where buses were the sole form of transportation so knowing how difficult commutes can be without them, naturally I would not call for cutting them unless it's necessary. Unlike you I actually think about the people that rely on the service, regardless of how many there may be. Most routes don't just have service for a reason. At some point a lot of them were good routes, so before eliminating them I think it's reasonable to first try to understand why ridership went down and it always because the bus route is "slow" or "useless". It could simply be a question of reliability, or the economy, but it's best to know why before calling for it to be axed.

You do realize for the lines I've mentioned that is simply not the case. X25 did not serve a single area not served by trains it's ridership reflected that. It never had great ridership to begin with X25 was and will always be a useless route. Paying premium fare for a bus within manhattan that wasn't even fast compared to the lex line was a complete waste drop it. This is not SI or central east queens where the alternatives either suck or don't exist not all lines are equal get that through your head. Heck QM22 shold have been a LTD stop line rather than an express bus there was a reason it had just 2 trips and yes both were well utilized.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You do realize for the lines I've mentioned that is simply not the case. X25 did not serve a single area not served by trains it's ridership reflected that. It never had great ridership to begin with X25 was and will always be a useless route. Paying premium fare for a bus within manhattan that wasn't even fast compared to the lex line was a complete waste drop it. This is not SI or central east queens where the alternatives either suck or don't exist not all lines are equal get that through your head. Heck QM22 shold have been a LTD stop line rather than an express bus there was a reason it had just 2 trips and yes both were well utilized.

Is that right?? Tell me what trains serve the World Financial Center??? 

[Culver]

Is that right?? Tell me what trains serve the World Financial Center??? 

None, but apparently the lines going through downtown were close enough to where even when everybody had the disposable income, nobody wanted to pay the high fare for a shuttle bus. Forget the X25, it's a foam route. The X90 and X29 (assuming can get better ridership on them) are worth considering.