Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 3, 2013 Share #401 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Really not according to the last schedule change. http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/planning/schedules/schedules.htm If you think Bxm4 is as fast as MNRR from woodlawn then you truly have no sense of time.what soever MNRR service to woodlawn was upgraded fall last year to 30 min off peak service. FAIL! Ones location laughable the only locations where bxm4 is faster is on grand concouse use bx1 LTD or the subway which is faster next give up already what point of low demand do you not get. Last I checked air molecules aren't riders buddy. Your points would be valid IF BXM4 had more ridership!! The numbers say this line is not as important as it's alternatives cause if they were like you this line would have way more than 414 weekday riders you can't defend this line. Isn't it funny that the bxm line. that is closest to the MNRR has the lowest ridership excluding Bxm18 which is just a variant of the bxm1. It's no accident it's ridership reflects that. All the well patroned Bxm lines have one thing in common they are nowhere near MNRR or the areas they serve like riverdale are poorly served by MNRR not due to schedule but poor location accesibility. Real reason is unlike woodlawn and areas by Bxm4 getting to MNRR in riverdale is cumbersome. That area's stations are hard to reach and is similar to local bus subway commute. Bx7 runs like crap too. Not the case with other parts of the bronx. Mnrr harlem line is easy to get to in fordham and areas served by bxm4 so the argument. for bxm1/2/18 can't be used for the 4 end of story. lol... As I said before MNRR does not have off-peak half hour service all of the time from Woodlawn... I also stated that unless someone is going to Grand Central or to places near MNRR then the BxM4 may be quicker for them. You're just looking at how long it takes MNRR to get from point A to point B and nothing more... It's a cute marketing scheme though but it leaves out how long it may take someone to get to or from MNRR. Edited February 3, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 3, 2013 Share #402 Posted February 3, 2013 The MNRR vs the Express Bus debate again huh.... This particular one I'm gonna stay out of... Woodlawn folks have ppl drive them to the RR station; the Bx31 is rather shunned up there.... Bx31 to Woodlawn was one of those things that looked good on paper (esp. compared to what it used to do for a turnaround back in '06/07) but never flourished.... [img=http://imageshack.us/a/img132/2489/188316.gif]....[img=http://imageshack.us/a/img43/8146/235400.gif]------------Bx31 in woodlawn, 2006--------------Bx31 in woodlawn, 2007 to current Bxm4 is the only express bus that directly competes with MNRR and guess what it's getting burned cause of it. VG8's argument for express bus importance would hold true for bxm4 IF it was actually used!!! Less than 500 runs all day tells you alot. It means the majority of folks there are NOT interested in this line as proven by near empty buses even at rush hour. He has no case just pulling crap out the ass to defend the undefendable. However other things can be looked into. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 3, 2013 Share #403 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Bxm4 is the only express bus that directly competes with MNRR and guess what it's getting burned cause of it. VG8's argument for express bus importance would hold true for bxm4 IF it was actually used!!! Less than 500 runs all day tells you alot. It means the majority of folks there are NOT interested in this line as proven by near empty buses even at rush hour. He has no case just pulling crap out the ass to defend the undefendable. However other things can be looked into. lol... The BxM4 does not compete with the MNRR... MNRR goes to Grand Central and the BxM4 runs down 5th to 26th street... They don't even compete in Woodlawn... The BxM4 is not near the MNRR... The MNRR is at the eastern part of the neighborhood and the BxM4 ends towards the western part of the area. The neighborhood is small so naturally MNRR isn't that far from the BxM4, but I wouldn't call it competing not unless the person is going to Grand Central. Here's what I want to know... What is the percentage of riders using the BxM4 along the Grand Concourse and do you just have one person getting here and there or do you have any heavy stops? We already know that it gets decent usage in Woodlawn. I think the issue is that it spends a decent amount of time along the Grand Concourse and so naturally it has a lot of stops there but the ridership isn't there mainly due to the economy. Either the should market the bus in that area more or cut out stops in the area and perhaps extend it into Westchester. I would have a hearing set up for residents in that area to get feedback about the bus in that area as to how it can be better utilized. If that doesn't then you would look at axing some stops along the Concourse and seeing if there is indeed a market further north into Westchester. I HATE the idea but I that's the real problem the BxM4 and it could be hurting ridership in Woodlawn as well. Edited February 3, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 3, 2013 Share #404 Posted February 3, 2013 lol... The BxM4 does not compete with the MNRR... MNRR goes to Grand Central and the BxM4 runs down 5th to 26th street... They don't even compete in Woodlawn... The BxM4 is not near the MNRR... The MNRR is at the eastern part of the neighborhood and the BxM4 ends towards the western part of the area. The neighborhood is small so naturally MNRR isn't that far from the BxM4, but I wouldn't call it competing not unless the person is going to Grand Central.err your desparate most woodlawn folks who do NOT use it disagree just stop I made several valid points which describes Bxm4's low ridership. You are just running on emotion at this point. I guess you are blind cause you don't see the empty buses wasted on this pathetic line which should be part of another route actually NOT 4C!! I am done I guess you will have to use it more cause clearly you don't. Anyway cot16 or anybody not ruuning on emotion post a bronx proposal as I don't wish to continue this pointless argument. Seriously it's like arguing with a thickheaded wall. Overwhelming evidence shows the lack of sufficient grand concorse ridership. Ok here goes Q94 fordham jamacia super ltd via bronx river to parkchester then all Q44 stops in the bronx to queens then Q50 stops after linden place express to kew gardens for links to Q37/10&46 then to jamacia airtrain via hillside and Q44 routing. Or next stop airtrain via van wyck service road then Q44 routing to meet more lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 3, 2013 Share #405 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) err your desparate most woodlawn folks who do NOT use it disagree just stop I made several valid points which describes Bxm4's low ridership. You are just running on emotion at this point. I guess you are blind cause you don't see the empty buses wasted on this pathetic line which should be part of another route actually NOT 4C!! I am done I guess you will have to use it more cause clearly you don't. Anyway cot16 or anybody not ruuning on emotion post a bronx proposal as I don't wish to continue this pointless argument. Seriously it's like arguing with a thickheaded wall. Overwhelming evidence shows the lack of sufficient grand concorse ridership. Ok here goes Q94 fordham jamacia super ltd via bronx river to parkchester then all Q44 stops in the bronx to queens then Q50 stops after linden place express to kew gardens for links to Q37/10&46 then to jamacia airtrain via hillside and Q44 routing. Or next stop airtrain via van wyck service road then Q44 routing to meet more lines. Let's not go crazy here.... 118,000 annual riders is still a decent amount of customers, and I think the so far has been fair in keeping the amount of service that the line has, but adjustments are needed. First I would start by making the runs shorter and it would start with combining stops along the Concourse... Too many stops and from Woodlawn to 26th street I would shoot for service to be under an hour to make the service more marketable, but they've got to understand why is the line losing customers? Is it just the economy or what is the cause? The route still could be saved but adjustments need to be made now before they get cut happy... You see I don't believe in cutting any service (not just express buses) BUT ALL SERVICE unless it has to be cut because in most cases once the service is gone, it's gone and for those affected their commutes become tougher. Edited February 3, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted February 3, 2013 Share #406 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Delete. Edited February 3, 2013 by checkmatechamp13 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted February 3, 2013 Share #407 Posted February 3, 2013 if bxm4 ran to westchester it would be so slow it will chase away those riders to metro-north. There is no way in hell westchester commuters would sit through a bus all the way through the concorse. They can afford the ripoff of bxm4c they can afford mnrr. MTA would just cut the route and tell people metro north. Who said it has to go up the Concourse? You could have it either take the old BxM4B Super Express route, or like you said, have it go down the Bronx River Parkway if that's faster. TBH, I don't think service along the Concourse is needed. I think it would be best if the MTA made a few stations along the Concourse ADA-accessable and called it a day. Long-term, it ends up being cheaper, and it benefits more people. As for what to do now, well, for what it's worth, the Bx2 connects with the at 149th Street/3rd Avenue, so ADA passengers can use that. I mean, I really don't like the ADA argument, because by that logic, why don't we have express bus service from (for instance) Bed-Stuy to Manhattan, or the Jamaica Avenue corridor to Manhattan? Don't get me wrong, they have my sympathy if their trip is lengthened due to the fact that they can't use the subway, but I don't think it's worth running these services. Just try to get the station ADA accessable and call it a day. Knew it I knew woodlawn folks used bx31 to mnrr most likely over the bxm4 since it is well SLOW. But my compromise still leaves em with express service. I have a friend who works in service planning. Mta would not want to duplicate their MNRR service even though personally a bxm5 with open-door LTD stop service on central park ave is a good idea. To be honest if I had my way MTA would run BXM4C as Bxm5 full time and LTD stop on central park ave but express to manhattan. To avoid the deegan via woodlawn to bronx river from gun hill rd then manhattan via faster bruckner. He said those Bx31 riders are coming from the east (Wakefield, Edenwald, etc), not the west. Let's not go crazy here.... 118,000 annual riders is still a decent amount of customers, and I think the so far has been fair in keeping the amount of service that the line has, but adjustments are needed. The highest cost per passenger (of all the express routes) and the lowest ridership of the full-time express routes counts as "a decent amount" now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted February 4, 2013 Share #408 Posted February 4, 2013 OK, how about we split the BxM4 into one that makes stops along Grand Concourse and ends somewhere short of Woodlawn and another route that goes express till Bedford Park area or something, then Woodlawn, and then to Yonkers Raceway. Call one BxM4, the other BxM14. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted February 4, 2013 Share #409 Posted February 4, 2013 Well the BxM18 hasn't been extended to specifically serve Westchester riders. It's already there and BxM4C riders can benefit from it being there so fine, but we should not be taking city taxes to extend routes to Westchester at a time when the city is in need of more bus service to deal with Westchester's service issues. The idea is completely absurd and that's one reason why the is so ****** financially now from propping up services that don't primarily serve city riders that are heavily subsidized on city dollars. It's a set up that residents in the city have been pissed about for years too, and I agree. Those Westchester routes have been there and are there moreso to benefit Westchester riders more than anything, but the Bee Line knew very well what they were doing when they cut the BxM4C from Downtown and now we're going to propose sending more of our service to deal with their problems. If they're cutting their service back from the city, one would be very naïve to think that they're going to pony up monies for city extensions into Westchester. Furthermore, just about each proposal that you've mentioned so far would make said city bus more unreliable than it is already. The Bx7 bunches terribly just going to the city border, so extending it could potentially make the service worse. Also it seems like most of the proposals on the table were before the recession hit. In short, you want to start sending city service to Westchester, then they had better make damn sure that Westchester pays their share for the service #1 (which as I said earlier I don't see happening) and #2 find a way to keep the service reliable (which the is terrible with when it comes to extensions), otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. How exactly would the BxM4 work when it already is over an hour from end to end and you've got folks complaining about the amount of stops? Extending it further north would more than likely mean some city stops would be eliminated which would piss off city residents, so I'd to see how that would work... The BxM4 proposal was after the recession. Extending the Bx10 to Ludlow or Getty Square would be better than the Bx7 (which wouldn't even have a Bronx terminal if it were extended). Bx7 is too frequent for Yonkers right now, the Bx10 would be a better test since it is less frequent, plus it would give Yonkers a 24/7 bus. BxM4 extension wouldn't have been that long, only up to Yonkers Raceway, although I would make a new BxM5 from Yonkers Raceway and have that run straight down to Bainbridge & 205 train, or on the Grand Concourse until Fordham Road, then non stop express to Manhattan. The BxM4 can stay the same for now. The BxM5 would also get people from Manhattan to Yonkers Raceway so this route would have potential for ridership in both directions. Yonkers Raceway would also be accessible on Thanksgiving and Christmas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted February 4, 2013 Share #410 Posted February 4, 2013 OK, how about we split the BxM4 into one that makes stops along Grand Concourse and ends somewhere short of Woodlawn and another route that goes express till Bedford Park area or something, then Woodlawn, and then to Yonkers Raceway. Call one BxM4, the other BxM14. The Yonkers Raceway bus (BxM5) could skip Woodlawn and just have the people transfer from the Bx34 & Jerome & Bainbridge. If any version of the BxM4 doesn't stop at Woodlawn or Yonkers Raceway, then it will have even lower ridership (ex: BxM4A). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted February 4, 2013 Share #411 Posted February 4, 2013 Here's what I want to know... What is the percentage of riders using the BxM4 along the Grand Concourse and do you just have one person getting here and there or do you have any heavy stops? We already know that it gets decent usage in Woodlawn. I think the issue is that it spends a decent amount of time along the Grand Concourse and so naturally it has a lot of stops there but the ridership isn't there mainly due to the economy. Either the should market the bus in that area more or cut out stops in the area and perhaps extend it into Westchester. I would have a hearing set up for residents in that area to get feedback about the bus in that area as to how it can be better utilized. If that doesn't then you would look at axing some stops along the Concourse and seeing if there is indeed a market further north into Westchester. I HATE the idea but I that's the real problem the BxM4 and it could be hurting ridership in Woodlawn as well. As to your question, it's the former of the two... There's no major stop along the GC where you'll see a bunch of people getting off... As for why the usage isn't high on the BxM4, I think even if the economy was on the up & up, that route would still see relatively low ridership (compared to the rest of the expresses in the city).... Some areas you can't expect express bus service to be booming (for express bus standards), and along GC IMO is one of them...That's where I have to agree with QJT - the ppl. that live along/around GC are talking with their feet and have been doing so for the longest w/ the [old BxM4a/b] / [today's BxM4] along/around the concourse.... If you want to be a little more specific, anything along GC south of Bedford park Blvd.... aye, I'm not too fond of the concourse line (subway) either, but the folks around there live & die w/ that .... The area around GC isn't like Riverdale where you'll have as many patrons outright refusing to put up w/ the commute to the from their places of residency & will dive onto BxM1's/2's/18's and won't think twice about not considering taking a local train all the way from 231st to 96th for a transfer to the or the for service towards midtown or lwr. manhattan.... OK, how about we split the BxM4 into one that makes stops along Grand Concourse and ends somewhere short of Woodlawn and another route that goes express till Bedford Park area or something, then Woodlawn, and then to Yonkers Raceway. Call one BxM4, the other BxM14. The first would-be split of what you're suggesting isn't that much different than the old BxM4a; look where that route ended up.... As for having an express route run b/w yonkers raceway & GC/BPB via woodlawn, MTA most likely wouldn't go for that either b/c the usage on the current BxM4 north of BPB is no where near solid enough to warrant its own route.... If usage was booming like that, I would actually agree with you here.... The BxM4 is surviving off the riders it gets along GC + (plus) the riders it gets up in Woodlawn.....Try to separate both portions into their own routes & the MTA will find a way to get rid of them..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 4, 2013 Share #412 Posted February 4, 2013 The BxM4 proposal was after the recession.Extending the Bx10 to Ludlow or Getty Square would be better than the Bx7 (which wouldn't even have a Bronx terminal if it were extended). Bx7 is too frequent for Yonkers right now, the Bx10 would be a better test since it is less frequent, plus it would give Yonkers a 24/7 bus. BxM4 extension wouldn't have been that long, only up to Yonkers Raceway, although I would make a new BxM5 from Yonkers Raceway and have that run straight down to Bainbridge & 205 train, or on the Grand Concourse until Fordham Road, then non stop express to Manhattan. The BxM4 can stay the same for now. The BxM5 would also get people from Manhattan to Yonkers Raceway so this route would have potential for ridership in both directions. Yonkers Raceway would also be accessible on Thanksgiving and Christmas. I wouldn't support a Bx10 extension either... Bx10 bunches just as badly as the Bx7 if not worse... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted February 4, 2013 Share #413 Posted February 4, 2013 The Yonkers Raceway bus (BxM5) could skip Woodlawn and just have the people transfer from the Bx34 & Jerome & Bainbridge. If any version of the BxM4 doesn't stop at Woodlawn or Yonkers Raceway, then it will have even lower ridership (ex: BxM4A). Hey, hey, we already got a BxM5 up in this thread a few pages now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 4, 2013 Share #414 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) As to your question, it's the former of the two... There's no major stop along the GC where you'll see a bunch of people getting off... As for why the usage isn't high on the BxM4, I think even if the economy was on the up & up, that route would still see relatively low ridership (compared to the rest of the expresses in the city).... Some areas you can't expect express bus service to be booming (for express bus standards), and along GC IMO is one of them...That's where I have to agree with QJT - the ppl. that live along/around GC are talking with their feet and have been doing so for the longest w/ the [old BxM4a/b] / [today's BxM4] along/around the concourse.... If you want to be a little more specific, anything along GC south of Bedford park Blvd.... aye, I'm not too fond of the concourse line (subway) either, but the folks around there live & die w/ that .... The area around GC isn't like Riverdale where you'll have as many patrons outright refusing to put up w/ the commute to the from their places of residency & will dive onto BxM1's/2's/18's and won't think twice about not considering taking a local train all the way from 231st to 96th for a transfer to the or the for service towards midtown or lwr. manhattan.... I wouldn't expect tons of riders along the Grand Concourse just because the area itself isn't exactly express bus territory. Kind of like Bedford Park... Not only because of the subway but also because most folks can't afford it. Compare that area to Parkchester where those folks will wait 30 - 40 minutes for their express bus because they refuse to take the subway.... What I would do is combine stops along the Grand Concourse. They already eliminated some and I would cut out a few more because to have to pick up a few people here and there at those stops along the Concourse is annoying right there and the route runs down the Concourse for most of its time so it's clear that the folks from Woodlawn can't sustain the route alone. I would focus first on doing that to reduce the run time below an hour. Then I would look at any possibility of extending it into Westchester and if that were to happen I would axe more stops along the Concourse. If they're not going to use their service then quite frankly there is no need to have that many stops along the Concourse. Now there would need to be a balance struck in trying to place the stops kept in places where they are still accessible so that it still keeps the bus attractive along the Concourse for those that do use it because if folks have to walk too far then that's not good either. Some stops like the ones near Yankees' Stadium I would keep one, but I would cut others and try to work with the community to see which stops could be cut. I would focus on looking for a new market for the BxM4 and also trying to attract more riders in Woodlawn (which I think is part of the issue as well for lost ridership) and up in Westchester that can obviously afford the express bus and look to speed up their commutes. I think if that could be done you could at least get the numbers up a bit more to keep the service where it is currently. Edited February 4, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted February 4, 2013 Share #415 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) I wouldn't support a Bx10 extension either... Bx10 bunches just as badly as the Bx7 if not worse... Yeah, neither one of those routes should run up to some Ludlow.... It's pointless... The masses are coming from the downtown yonkers area - Ending buses at Ludlow, all you're really doing is changing the point where people would xfer b/w the BL-8 & the (Bx7 or Bx10) at..... This goes w/o saying, but one reason the BL-8 doesn't get near as much riders south of getty sq. than the BL-1's (series) & the BL-2 is (of course) due to the fact that you get a 1 seat ride to the subway on the BL-1's & the BL-2.... I wouldn't expect tons of riders along the Grand Concourse just because the area itself isn't exactly express bus territory. Kind of like Bedford Park... Not only because of the subway but also because most folks can't afford it. Compare that area to Parkchester where those folks will wait 30 - 40 minutes for their express bus because they refuse to take the subway.... What I would do is combine stops along the Grand Concourse. They already eliminated some and I would cut out a few more because to have to pick up a few people here and there at those stops along the Concourse is annoying right there and the route runs down the Concourse for most of its time so it's clear that the folks from Woodlawn can't sustain the route alone. I would focus first on doing that to reduce the run time below an hour. Then I would look at any possibility of extending it into Westchester and if that were to happen I would axe more stops along the Concourse. If they're not going to use their service then quite frankly there is no need to have that many stops along the Concourse. Now there would need to be a balance struck in trying to place the stops kept in places where they are still accessible so that it still keeps the bus attractive along the Concourse for those that do use it because if folks have to walk too far then that's not good either. Some stops like the ones near Yankees' Stadium I would keep one, but I would cut others and try to work with the community to see which stops could be cut. I would focus on looking for a new market for the BxM4 and also trying to attract more riders in Woodlawn (which I think is part of the issue as well for lost ridership) and up in Westchester that can obviously afford the express bus and look to speed up their commutes. I think if that could be done you could at least get the numbers up a bit more to keep the service where it is currently. That's the essence of what I'm getting at when I say those that live along/around GC "live & die" by the .... These are people (in general) that aren't like us & can really afford to be taking express buses as part of their everyday commute like that..... I haven't put any real/serious thought into combining stops along GC, but I have been on more than my fair share of BxM4's - and I will say if that's an option to be considered, they can start by getting rid of stops at major intersections & combine stops where new stops would be located between major intersections.... I say that b/c I notice, of the stops that are used along GC moreso than others, it's the stops that aren't at major intersections..... Perfect example - instead of the stops on fordham rd & kingsbridge rd themselves, they could just have buses stop at 192nd... Those two stops are two of the more lower used stops up there on the BxM4 anyway.... For the most part, the only way you're gonna attract more riders in Woodlawn is if you try to dissuade enough commuters up there from taking Bx34's to (4)'s... I don't see where else around GC that you're gonna find a new market for the BxM4 to service, unfortunately.... It's one reason why an extension to Yonkers raceway was considered (new market).... It's why I say this rendition of the BxM4 is the best we're gonna get.... Edited February 4, 2013 by B35 via Church 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted February 4, 2013 Share #416 Posted February 4, 2013 So it is either W8 to 231 St, or Bx7, Bx10, or Bx20* to Getty Square (MTA however wanted to stop at Ludlow MNR for some reason). *Bx20 extension is longer than the other two routes, but the Bx20 only runs rush hours only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 4, 2013 Share #417 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) The BxM4 proposal was after the recession.Extending the Bx10 to Ludlow or Getty Square would be better than the Bx7 (which wouldn't even have a Bronx terminal if it were extended). Bx7 is too frequent for Yonkers right now, the Bx10 would be a better test since it is less frequent, plus it would give Yonkers a 24/7 bus. BxM4 extension wouldn't have been that long, only up to Yonkers Raceway, although I would make a new BxM5 from Yonkers Raceway and have that run straight down to Bainbridge & 205 train, or on the Grand Concourse until Fordham Road, then non stop express to Manhattan. The BxM4 can stay the same for now. The BxM5 would also get people from Manhattan to Yonkers Raceway so this route would have potential for ridership in both directions. Yonkers Raceway would also be accessible on Thanksgiving and Christmas. No you can extend SELECT Bx7 trips to getty sq done. How about you cut the waste and keep BXM5 OFF the concourse. If you make a BXM5 then let it replace the 4C and go via woodlawn then super express via bronx river at gun hill to bruckner not that many would use it though. As checkmate13 said it has the highest cost per passenger of all express buses and the lowest ridership of the full-time expresses it's a dead horse stop beating it and put it out of it's misery trust me it will not be missed anyway. Ridership again is dismal I have saw many BXM4s and never have I saw a full one not even at rush hour. It's useless the numbers and cost per passenger don't lie it needs to go there is no way to make it useful people are just not interested in this line. To be honest I looked into the BXM4 sorry it's hopeless there is nothing you can do to significantly boost it's ridership the best thing you can do is reroute another nearby express bus to go through woodlawn for GC the demand err what demand air molecules do not count. Who said it has to go up the Concourse? You could have it either take the old BxM4B Super Express route, or like you said, have it go down the Bronx River Parkway if that's faster. TBH, I don't think service along the Concourse is needed. I think it would be best if the MTA made a few stations along the Concourse ADA-accessable and called it a day. Long-term, it ends up being cheaper, and it benefits more people. As for what to do now, well, for what it's worth, the Bx2 connects with the at 149th Street/3rd Avenue, so ADA passengers can use that. I mean, I really don't like the ADA argument, because by that logic, why don't we have express bus service from (for instance) Bed-Stuy to Manhattan, or the Jamaica Avenue corridor to Manhattan? Don't get me wrong, they have my sympathy if their trip is lengthened due to the fact that they can't use the subway, but I don't think it's worth running these services. Just try to get the station ADA accessable and call it a day. He said those Bx31 riders are coming from the east (Wakefield, Edenwald, etc), not the west. The highest cost per passenger (of all the express routes) and the lowest ridership of the full-time express routes counts as "a decent amount" now? Bingo!!! Finally this argument is over thanks for sealing the deal. Off-topic the super bowl distracted me sorry for being late Edited February 4, 2013 by qjtransitmaster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted February 4, 2013 Share #418 Posted February 4, 2013 No you can extend SELECT Bx7 trips to getty sq done. How about you cut the waste and keep BXM5 OFF the concourse. If you make a BXM5 then let it replace the 4C and go via woodlawn then super express via bronx river at gun hill to bruckner not that many would use it though. As checkmate13 said it has the highest cost per passenger of all express buses and the lowest ridership of the full-time expresses it's a dead horse stop beating it and put it out of it's misery trust me it will not be missed anyway. Ridership again is dismal I have saw many BXM4s and never have I saw a full one not even at rush hour. It's useless the numbers and cost per passenger don't lie it needs to go there is no way to make it useful people are just not interested in this line. To be honest I looked into the BXM4 sorry it's hopeless there is nothing you can do to significantly boost it's ridership the best thing you can do is reroute another nearby express bus to go through woodlawn for GC the demand err what demand air molecules do not count.Bingo!!! Finally this argument is over thanks for sealing the deal. Off-topic the super bowl distracted me sorry for being late BxM5 won't go any higher than Yonkers Avenue, anything past that is a Westchester County problem. One idea for the BxM5 is to have it stop at Yonkers Avenue, Central Park Avenue & McLean Avenue, another stop somewhere on McLean Avenue, the Woodlawn Heights stops, then via the old BxM4 super express route straight to Manhattan, while the BxM4 starts at Woodlawn running normally down the Grand Concourse. Every other bus will alternate between BxM4 (Woodlawn), BxM5 (Yonkers Raceway super express via Woodlawn Heights). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 4, 2013 Share #419 Posted February 4, 2013 or just cut BXM4 and create the bxm5 the resources can be put to better use on a bus people would actually use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 4, 2013 Share #420 Posted February 4, 2013 So it is either W8 to 231 St, or Bx7, Bx10, or Bx20* to Getty Square (MTA however wanted to stop at Ludlow MNR for some reason).*Bx20 extension is longer than the other two routes, but the Bx20 only runs rush hours only. The Bx20 only runs to 246th street because there isn't a reason to run it any further... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 4, 2013 Share #421 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Yeah, neither one of those routes should run up to some Ludlow.... It's pointless... The masses are coming from the downtown yonkers area - Ending buses at Ludlow, all you're really doing is changing the point where people would xfer b/w the BL-8 & the (Bx7 or Bx10) at..... This goes w/o saying, but one reason the BL-8 doesn't get near as much riders south of getty sq. than the BL-1's (series) & the BL-2 is (of course) due to the fact that you get a 1 seat ride to the subway on the BL-1's & the BL-2.... That's the essence of what I'm getting at when I say those that live along/around GC "live & die" by the .... These are people (in general) that aren't like us & can really afford to be taking express buses as part of their everyday commute like that..... I haven't put any real/serious thought into combining stops along GC, but I have been on more than my fair share of BxM4's - and I will say if that's an option to be considered, they can start by getting rid of stops at major intersections & combine stops where new stops would be located between major intersections.... I say that b/c I notice, of the stops that are used along GC moreso than others, it's the stops that aren't at major intersections..... Perfect example - instead of the stops on fordham rd & kingsbridge rd themselves, they could just have buses stop at 192nd... Those two stops are two of the more lower used stops up there on the BxM4 anyway.... For the most part, the only way you're gonna attract more riders in Woodlawn is if you try to dissuade enough commuters up there from taking Bx34's to (4)'s... I don't see where else around GC that you're gonna find a new market for the BxM4 to service, unfortunately.... It's one reason why an extension to Yonkers raceway was considered (new market).... It's why I say this rendition of the BxM4 is the best we're gonna get.... Yeah and I agree... Gentrification along the Concourse is not happening anytime soon and so they need to re-structure the BxM4 by starting with combining stops along the Concourse. That part of the route has been pegged as a revenue generator based on it running through a major artery and it providing an alternative for those who either prefer the express bus or can't deal with the stairs but it isn't a major generator. You see I wouldn't look to target those Woodlawn folks that are taking the Bx34 to the train. I would want to know if BxM4 riders have now switched to MetroNorth because it's important to target folks that either can afford the service, or used to use the service rather than those that are using the subway because those folks usually can't be dissuaded. Either way though Woodlawn only has about 8,000 residents so you're not going to get but so many riders up there anyway. The more I think about it the more I saw take the BxM4 off of the Concourse completely or at least eliminate several stops and have it run into Westchester a bit. Dare I say it but the fact that it runs through the ghetto for so long could be another reason why Woodlawn folks aren't using it as much. It's something I've thought about too... Most Bronx express buses don't spend too much time in the run down areas and I think the BxM4 is unique in that regard. Edited February 4, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 4, 2013 Share #422 Posted February 4, 2013 Yeah and I agree... Gentrification along the Concourse is not happening anytime soon and so they need to re-structure the BxM4 by starting with combining stops along the Concourse. That part of the route has been pegged as a revenue generator based on it running through a major artery and it providing an alternative for those who either prefer the express bus or can't deal with the stairs but it isn't a major generator. You see I wouldn't look to target those Woodlawn folks that are taking the Bx34 to the train. I would want to know if BxM4 riders have now switched to MetroNorth because it's important to target folks that either can afford the service, or used to use the service rather than those that are using the subway because those folks usually can't be dissuaded. Either way though Woodlawn only has about 8,000 residents so you're not going to get but so many riders up there anyway. The more I think about it the more I saw take the BxM4 off of the Concourse completely or at least eliminate several stops and have it run into Westchester a bit. Dare I say it but the fact that it runs through the ghetto for so long could be another reason why Woodlawn folks aren't using it as much. It's something I've thought about too... Most Bronx express buses don't spend too much time in the run down areas and I think the BxM4 is unique in that regard. They switched to metro north and aren't switching back anytime soon if ever. Those people can afford it so price is not important a desparate argument you made to protect this failed line. That was what I was saying all along they will just use MNRR unlike riverdale and the NW bronx stations woodlawn and botanical gardens and williamsbridge are easy to reach plus now have 30 min service during off-peak hours an express bus like bxm4 can't compete with service levels like that. However if mnrr wasn't upgraded there bxm4 would have a chance if taken off GC completely. Want proof make it useful and people will still use MNRR on weekends its just $3.75! $5.50 can't compete. It should be rerouted to bronx river parkway kill off all GC service reduced to rush hour peak only it is overserved for the off peak riders IF they are any reroute some midday bxm11 trips north of gun hill to use gun hill to brain bridge and via bxm4 routing. I doubt it would get used on the woodlawn segment but it's better than duplicating the all the way to wakefield. But still what you don't seem to get is that those folks are not interested in the bxm4. Now with improved MNRR service no way they are going to even consider this line. But I am curious now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 4, 2013 Share #423 Posted February 4, 2013 They switched to metro north and aren't switching back anytime soon if ever. Those people can afford it so price is not important a desparate argument you made to protect this failed line. That was what I was saying all along they will just use MNRR unlike riverdale and the NW bronx stations woodlawn and botanical gardens and williamsbridge are easy to reach plus now have 30 min service during off-peak hours an express bus like bxm4 can't compete with service levels like that. However if mnrr wasn't upgraded there bxm4 would have a chance if taken off GC completely. Want proof make it useful and people will still use MNRR on weekends its just $3.75! $5.50 can't compete. It should be rerouted to bronx river parkway kill off all GC service reduced to rush hour peak only it is overserved for the off peak riders IF they are any reroute some midday bxm11 trips north of gun hill to use gun hill to brain bridge and via bxm4 routing. I doubt it would get used on the woodlawn segment but it's better than duplicating the all the way to wakefield. But still what you don't seem to get is that those folks are not interested in the bxm4. Now with improved MNRR service no way they are going to even consider this line. But I am curious now. LOL... Now you want to re-route the BxM11 too? You and a few other people won't rest with the attack on buses BS... Wanted the BM4 service reduced... It's been cut back to almost rush hour only... Now he's going to b*tch about the BxM11... Any other bus you want to complain about?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted February 4, 2013 Share #424 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) bxm11 gets good use south of gun hill. Most ridership north of gun hill is rush hour at off peak its usually empty till gun hill then it fills up a bit. Unlike Bxm4 it deserves it's service levels. Bxm4 however doesn't and not even standalone either outside rush hr. You really can't come up with a proper argument so you try to come up with restructured desparate ways to keep it relevant. Once people switch to trains as a commuting method you almost can never win em back again. That reroute only affects bxm11 north of gun hill and during off-peak hours only weekdays. Not weekends cause it can't compete on weekends. Attack on buses LOL no I only attack redundant low ridership lines that have no potential like the bxm4 nothing can make it useful. Like the Qm3 its a dead horse by structure even if sped up the damage has been done it can't win back those from MNRR thx to recent service enhancements apparently they were fed up with the so much they switched to MNRR even I was shocked. But it shows how far people here in nyc would go to shave 30+ mins off their trip. Just look at the ridership levels of Qm2 and 5 prime examples of great lines. FYI my proposal enhances medium distance bus links and some express lines that deserve it or can be restructured to do so. Edited February 4, 2013 by qjtransitmaster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted February 4, 2013 Share #425 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Yeah and I agree... Gentrification along the Concourse is not happening anytime soon and so they need to re-structure the BxM4 by starting with combining stops along the Concourse. That part of the route has been pegged as a revenue generator based on it running through a major artery and it providing an alternative for those who either prefer the express bus or can't deal with the stairs but it isn't a major generator. You see I wouldn't look to target those Woodlawn folks that are taking the Bx34 to the train. I would want to know if BxM4 riders have now switched to MetroNorth because it's important to target folks that either can afford the service, or used to use the service rather than those that are using the subway because those folks usually can't be dissuaded. Either way though Woodlawn only has about 8,000 residents so you're not going to get but so many riders up there anyway. The more I think about it the more I saw take the BxM4 off of the Concourse completely or at least eliminate several stops and have it run into Westchester a bit. Dare I say it but the fact that it runs through the ghetto for so long could be another reason why Woodlawn folks aren't using it as much. It's something I've thought about too... Most Bronx express buses don't spend too much time in the run down areas and I think the BxM4 is unique in that regard. .....Then you're not gonna get any additional ridership on the BxM4 out of Woodlawn itself, it's that simple. The neighborhood of Woodlawn isn't that large.... Furthermore, I'm not understanding how you can tell QJT that the BxM4 doesn't compete w/ the MNRR, but ask if riders possibly switched to the MNRR.... I'm getting the impression that you think the BxM4 used to be this heavily utilized route out of Woodlawn... If you are, it wasn't...... Would've been more 4b service over 4a service if that was the case back then..... qjtransitmaster said: It should be rerouted to bronx river parkway kill off all GC service reduced to rush hour peak only it is overserved for the off peak riders IF they are any reroute some midday bxm11 trips north of gun hill to use gun hill to brain bridge and via bxm4 routing. I doubt it would get used on the woodlawn segment but it's better than duplicating the all the way to wakefield But still what you don't seem to get is that those folks are not interested in the bxm4. Now with improved MNRR service no way they are going to even consider this line. But I am curious now. 1] No to rerouting BxM11's... The issue w/ BxM4 usage has nothing to do w/ the BxM11.... Leave 11's on White Plains Road..... 2] Agreed.... GreatOne2k said: So it is either W8 to 231 St, or Bx7, Bx10, or Bx20* to Getty Square (MTA however wanted to stop at Ludlow MNR for some reason). *Bx20 extension is longer than the other two routes, but the Bx20 only runs rush hours only. In a perfect world, I'd extend every other BL-8 to 231st.... I don't know why they chose Ludlow either.... But in any event, realistically, I don't think the MTA nor Bee-Line would indulge/budge on those respective extensions... People are gonna have to remain transferring b/w the two services up over there by the county line.... Edited February 4, 2013 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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