10 Open Gangway Prototype Cars and Junius–Livonia Free Transfer Part of the Revised Capital Program

[MTA Bus]

That is why tolls need to be in place on East River Bridges!

There are multiple reasons as to why they should NOT do this.

[Union Tpke]

There are multiple reasons as to why they should NOT do this.

why not? It encourages people to use transit! They should also have tolls to get into Manhattan below 96th Street!

[RailRunRob]

I wonder how the MTA would set there car configs up? Like the Movia Family of cars on Metropolitan, Circle and District in London. They run S7/S8 stock in a permanent 7 or 8 car setup. Given the MTA operations, 24/7 service and other variables would that work for a 8/10 or 11 car consist in NY for interoperability? Or do you guys see open gangways in a 4 or 5 car setup ? 

I think I answered my own question you'd have to have a conductor's position.

[Grand Concourse]

Well the eny lines are set for a few decades with new trains (also depends if the r179s ever comes). So i don't think there would be a need for the new fleet to be 8 car trains. The r211s should be 10 car trains to replace the r46 fleet. And if they do have these gangways, it would probably be like the current set up now, two 5-car sets. The only line that needs 11 cars is the 7 and they will be set when the last r142as are converted.

[Kamen Rider]

why not? It encourages people to use transit! They should also have tolls to get into Manhattan below 96th Street!

that would probably be found unconstitutional

and it's stupid. 

 

1. That's not actually true

 

2. That's not actually legal unless they're doing actually illegal things, since the homeless are also citizens with human rights

 

How about my human right to board a train and not be forced to feel the sudden urge to vomit from the smell of "body waste", like what happened to me about a month ago on an M train. 

[j4lambert]

well the r110a paved the way for the r142/as. Hard to say if this will be a one off or if it becomes the first of a new batch of trains. I personally don't think it would be a good idea to have trains connected together like on the triplex given how it takes one smelly homeless person to drive people out of one car. Imagine having to deal with the stench for the whole train set? That and despite trains in linked sets, it would be difficult to inspect the cars unless the cars can be split apart from each other. If one car is totaled, the rest of the set is useless.

Actually, there should be 2 sets of 5-car trains with open gangways.

[Union Tpke]

that would probably be found unconstitutional

and it's stupid. 

 

 

How about my human right to board a train and not be forced to feel the sudden urge to vomit from the smell of "body waste", like what happened to me about a month ago on an M train. 

what do you mean by unconstitutional? Where is there anything in the constitution that says this is illegal?

Why is it stupid?

There is too much congestion in Manhattan!

[P3F]

I personally believe that there should be at least a few untolled routes into Manhattan, such as the Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan Bridge, some of the Harlem River crossings, and the Broadway Bridge. Nobody should have to pay money just to get into Manhattan.

[bobtehpanda]

that would probably be found unconstitutional

and it's stupid. 

 

 

How about my human right to board a train and not be forced to feel the sudden urge to vomit from the smell of "body waste", like what happened to me about a month ago on an M train. 

 

Driving is a privilege, not a constitutional right; this is why we have restricted roads and driving licenses, and why the state reserves the power to revoke licenses.

 

That's also not a constitutional right. The entire point of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, not to make the majority feel nice in a little sanitized bubble while the rest of the world burns around them.

[Kamen Rider]

all this talk about building a wall to keep the Mexicans out gets people like you riled up, but suggest a toll to keep poor people out of Manhattan and that's fine. force them into already packed trains and slow buses.. yea, great idea. while those who can swallow the toll keep on driving.

 

Driving may be a privilege* but you can't force someone to pay to cross an arbitrarily drawn line in a public, city street. tolls on bridges and tunnels, fares on trains and buses are paying for the service they provide. this idea is just an admittance fee, pure and simple and illegal.

 

 

*"Rights" are revocable at any time if your right is found to cause more harm than good or to be in volition of someone else's rights. Homeless person making people sick from the smell of having s#!t themselves has no "right" to stay anywhere.

[Union Tpke]

all this talk about building a wall to keep the Mexicans out gets people like you riled up, but suggest a toll to keep poor people out of Manhattan and that's fine. force them into already packed trains and slow buses.. yea, great idea. while those who can swallow the toll keep on driving.

 

Driving may be a privilege* but you can't force someone to pay to cross an arbitrarily drawn line in a public, city street. tolls on bridges and tunnels, fares on trains and buses are paying for the service they provide. this idea is just an admittance fee, pure and simple and illegal.

 

 

*"Rights" are revocable at any time if your right is found to cause more harm than good or to be in volition of someone else's rights. Homeless person making people sick from the smell of having s#!t themselves has no "right" to stay anywhere.

The poorer people would be using the subway and buses first of all. Its just for cars. Its not for people. It is for any vehicle going to Manhattan. You DO NOT need to use a car to get into Manhattan. If you don't want to take a train or bus, walk over the Queensboro Bridge, or Brooklyn Bridge.

[CenSin]

You can get them off the train, but unless they're doing something illegal they can't be forcibly removed from stations. The ACLU has established such in its successful court cases.

If you deprive them of food, they're going to have to get out for sustenance. They'll either die inside the system or show themselves out to find food. Nothing illegal happening since nobody is obligated to keep them alive. Of course, much like the rodent problem, people are bringing in food and change to keep the homeless going.

 

Is the MTA's outreach program so bad that homeless people are willing to tolerate their current living conditions?

[bobtehpanda]

all this talk about building a wall to keep the Mexicans out gets people like you riled up, but suggest a toll to keep poor people out of Manhattan and that's fine. force them into already packed trains and slow buses.. yea, great idea. while those who can swallow the toll keep on driving.

 

Driving may be a privilege* but you can't force someone to pay to cross an arbitrarily drawn line in a public, city street. tolls on bridges and tunnels, fares on trains and buses are paying for the service they provide. this idea is just an admittance fee, pure and simple and illegal.

 

 

*"Rights" are revocable at any time if your right is found to cause more harm than good or to be in volition of someone else's rights. Homeless person making people sick from the smell of having s#!t themselves has no "right" to stay anywhere.

 

Anyone who can pay the several-hundred-dollar monthly fee for a spot in a Manhattan garage, or has so much time and gas to burn spending god knows how long looking for a free spot close to their place of work, is not "poor." (I say free because nearly all, if not all, paid meters are time limited, and I highly doubt any employer of the working class is going to let someone take a break every 2 hours to go fill up the meter.) 56% of households in this city do not even own a motor vehicle, according to the Census, and in poor neighborhoods especially the rate of car ownership goes down. So the poor, by and large, do not drive, nor do they make up the majority of drivers.

 

If you have a problem with the congestion cordon being set on a public street (60th St), then we can just expand it to all the bridges entering Manhattan. Then you'll be paying for the service of using the bridge, which is currently paid out through general taxes, a good portion of which are paid by the 56% of city households without a car. Offer partial rebates for everyone on the island north of 60th St, and you achieve roughly the same effect.

 

Public defecation, as in actively peeing or pooping into the public realm, is illegal. Soiling yourself is not. And making it illegal would be difficult, but not impossible, because then you have to carve out exceptions for those who cannot do so for various reasons (otherwise you'd be able to target babies, the handicapped, the mentally disabled.) In fact, since most of the homeless who do choose to publicly soil themselves are handicapped or mentally disabled, that would be a pointless exercise anyways. If they're not breaking the law, you have no basis for ejection, and if you have a problem with that you can take it up with the judicial system.

If you deprive them of food, they're going to have to get out for sustenance. They'll either die inside the system or show themselves out to find food. Nothing illegal happening since nobody is obligated to keep them alive. Of course, much like the rodent problem, people are bringing in food and change to keep the homeless going.

 

Is the MTA's outreach program so bad that homeless people are willing to tolerate their current living conditions?

 

Well, the alternative to the subway is either the street, or the shelter system, which is overcrowded (and no one is guaranteed a consistent spot at the same place), unsafe (molestation, rape, and burglary within shelters is not unheard of), and inconvenient (some may not be open all the time or available every day). So if you're just going to redirect them to worse alternatives, outreach is not going to do much. Add to the fact that many of them may not be in the best mental state, and outreach will have only so much impact.

[Kamen Rider]

Anyone who can pay the several-hundred-dollar monthly fee for a spot in a Manhattan garage, or has so much time and gas to burn spending god knows how long looking for a free spot close to their place of work, is not "poor." (I say free because nearly all, if not all, paid meters are time limited, and I highly doubt any employer of the working class is going to let someone take a break every 2 hours to go fill up the meter.) 56% of households in this city do not even own a motor vehicle, according to the Census, and in poor neighborhoods especially the rate of car ownership goes down. So the poor, by and large, do not drive, nor do they make up the majority of drivers.

 

If you have a problem with the congestion cordon being set on a public street (60th St), then we can just expand it to all the bridges entering Manhattan. Then you'll be paying for the service of using the bridge, which is currently paid out through general taxes, a good portion of which are paid by the 56% of city households without a car. Offer partial rebates for everyone on the island north of 60th St, and you achieve roughly the same effect.

 

Public defecation, as in actively peeing or pooping into the public realm, is illegal. Soiling yourself is not. And making it illegal would be difficult, but not impossible, because then you have to carve out exceptions for those who cannot do so for various reasons (otherwise you'd be able to target babies, the handicapped, the mentally disabled.) In fact, since most of the homeless who do choose to publicly soil themselves are handicapped or mentally disabled, that would be a pointless exercise anyways. If they're not breaking the law, you have no basis for ejection, and if you have a problem with that you can take it up with the judicial system.

 

 

Well, the alternative to the subway is either the street, or the shelter system, which is overcrowded (and no one is guaranteed a consistent spot at the same place), unsafe (molestation, rape, and burglary within shelters is not unheard of), and inconvenient (some may not be open all the time or available every day). So if you're just going to redirect them to worse alternatives, outreach is not going to do much. Add to the fact that many of them may not be in the best mental state, and outreach will have only so much impact.

 

 

The poorer people would be using the subway and buses first of all. Its just for cars. Its not for people. It is for any vehicle going to Manhattan. You DO NOT need to use a car to get into Manhattan. If you don't want to take a train or bus, walk over the Queensboro Bridge, or Brooklyn Bridge.

 

First off, the two of you are making some rather serious assumptions, starting with that only the city had low income residents. between cheap used cars and very low rate insurance, it can actually be cheaper and more efficient to own a car than to rely on public transportation. 

 

How, for example, would this toll be added to folks coming through PA facilitates? PA toll and the congestion charge?

 

You try to force people onto an over capacity system right off the bat, simply because you can, without providing the capacity to carry them all (which we don't have), and you wonder why I call this idea stupid? You are demanding fiber optic data speeds, but are refusing to upgrade from a dial up connection.  

 

 

 

and on the other note

Smelling so much that you cause others to become physically ill and doing nothing about it has got to be a violation of the health code. 

[Union Tpke]

First off, the two of you are making some rather serious assumptions, starting with that only the city had low income residents. between cheap used cars and very low rate insurance, it can actually be cheaper and more efficient to own a car than to rely on public transportation. 

Those people are in the minority, and how is owning a car cheaper? The thing is that the Brooklyn Bridge used to have a toll, and if these bridges already had a toll people would have made arrangements in their daily lives, either they would use public transportation, or pay the tolls. 

 

 

How, for example, would this toll be added to folks coming through PA facilitates? PA toll and the congestion charge?

Only the PA toll, as the fares would be to generate revenue for the MTA. It would be a mess to do otherwise, as everything involving the PA is a mess.

 

 

You try to force people onto an over capacity system right off the bat, simply because you can, without providing the capacity to carry them all (which we don't have), and you wonder why I call this idea stupid? You are demanding fiber optic data speeds, but are refusing to upgrade from a dial up connection.  

 

This funding would go to paying for CBTC and other projects therefore increasing capacity. People wouldn't be forced. They would just deal with it. For example, if the subway fare was increased to $3.50 people would still ride the system as it was the quickest and most efficient way to go, but they would just have to deal with paying for it.

 

and on the other note

Smelling so much that you cause others to become physically ill and doing nothing about it has got to be a violation of the health code. 

[bobtehpanda]

First off, the two of you are making some rather serious assumptions, starting with that only the city had low income residents. between cheap used cars and very low rate insurance, it can actually be cheaper and more efficient to own a car than to rely on public transportation. 

 

How, for example, would this toll be added to folks coming through PA facilitates? PA toll and the congestion charge?

 

You try to force people onto an over capacity system right off the bat, simply because you can, without providing the capacity to carry them all (which we don't have), and you wonder why I call this idea stupid? You are demanding fiber optic data speeds, but are refusing to upgrade from a dial up connection.  

 

 

 

and on the other note

Smelling so much that you cause others to become physically ill and doing nothing about it has got to be a violation of the health code. 

 

Actually using a car for commuting, especially if you're commuting into Manhattan, is very expensive once you include the cost of parking (in either time or money.) The island of Manhattan actually has limits on how much parking can be built, so off-street rates are ridiculous, and good luck trying to find a free spot close to your place of work on a consistent basis; lower income people are not exactly time-rich when it comes to how late they can show up to work because of how hard it was to find parking. This also applies to meter parking, since nearly all of it is time limited; your boss is not going to let you take a break every two hours to go fill up the meter.

 

The old congestion pricing plans did not include the PA, because PA tolls already exceed the congestion pricing/MTA toll charge.

 

This is some ridiculous catch-22 crap. We can't fund the MTA because there is no money. There is no money because people toll-dodge MTA bridges using the free bridges. We can't close the money-losing loophole because the MTA has no money. Besides, closing the loophole and lowering the tolls on the bridges that don't go into Manhattan will make the transportation system work more optimally.

 

Unless the person is known to carry an actual contagious disease (and by that I mean rabies, MMR, or something of that magnitude), it isn't illegal.

[Mysterious2train]

Some more articles from the Tri-State Transportation Campaign blog about Queens and Move NY

 

http://blog.tstc.org/2015/11/02/is-moveny-really-a-bad-deal-for-queens-residents/

http://blog.tstc.org/2015/11/09/part-ii-is-move-ny-as-fundamentally-unfair-to-common-folk-as-queens-electeds-say-it-is/

 

 

Councilman Daneek Miller is one of five Progressive Caucus councilmembers who did not back the plan. Miller, who represents District 27 in southeastern Queens, cited concerns that the proposed toll reform is “a misguided proposal” and “a regressive tax and an undue burden on low- and middle-income working families.” He noted separately that many of his constituents drive to work due to limited mass transit options....Councilman Miller’s statements imply that many District 27 residents would be adversely affected by toll reform since they drive more frequently than other New Yorkers. But Miller fails to consider the fact that the vast majority of car commuters in his district wouldn’t be impacted by tolls on the East River Bridges or the Queens Midtown Tunnel. According to Census data, of the 83,452 workers residing in Councilman Miller’s district*, only 20 percent travel to jobs in the Manhattan CBD. Of those 16,721 Manhattan-bound commuters, 81.4 percent (13,624) use transit while 16.6 percent (2,788) drive. As a percentage of all workers in Miller’s district, the 2,788 who drive to the Manhattan CBD represent just 3.3 percent.    * This is an approximation since there is not a perfect alignment of census tracts and District 27 boundaries.

 

How many is many? Miller's district includes part of Jamaica at its northwestern edge but mostly includes subway-less areas like St. Albans and Hollis. Even there it seems that the number of people actually driving to the Manhattan CBD for work who would be affected by these tolls are small. Same for other politicians and districts in similar positions. 

[bobtehpanda]

Some more articles from the Tri-State Transportation Campaign blog about Queens and Move NY

 

http://blog.tstc.org/2015/11/02/is-moveny-really-a-bad-deal-for-queens-residents/

http://blog.tstc.org/2015/11/09/part-ii-is-move-ny-as-fundamentally-unfair-to-common-folk-as-queens-electeds-say-it-is/

 

 

 

How many is many? Miller's district includes part of Jamaica at its northwestern edge but mostly includes subway-less areas like St. Albans and Hollis. Even there it seems that the number of people actually driving to the Manhattan CBD for work who would be affected by these tolls are small. Same for other politicians and districts in similar positions. 

 

Keep in mind that there may be selection bias at play; since he is probably a driver/driven himself, he self-identifies as one, and given that he is a politician, is more likely to attach greater importance to groups he is a part of.

 

Also keep in mind that there is one anti-toll argument to be had; if the East River bridges are tolled, then it becomes impossible to leave Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island without paying a toll. This will be the case unless an alternative toll crossing is built, but the link across the Long Island Sound is as good as dead.