Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[TMC]

10 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I always think of an alternate reality where Brooklyn grew to be much denser and Fulton St was somewhat akin to Queens Blvd. A new tunnel in Manhattan would've needed to have been built, my guess is using the existing Court St station. It's just weird to think how both IND Fulton St line and IND QBLVD line are both quad-tracked IND lines in the outer-boroughs, yet they've diverged so much in terms of ridership.

 

The difference between Fulton Street and Queens Blvd comes from the fact that Downtown Brooklyn was originally a much larger and more important job center than it is today, so its subway infrastructure is wildly overbuilt for the traffic coming into and through it. Long Island City grew as an extension of the Midtown Manhattan "blob", and is now much more important than Downtown Brooklyn, being the largest secondary center in the city, as far as I remember. Downtown Brooklyn also spreads its ridership over 3 major stops, and a few more less major stops, while Long Island City does not have as much infrastructure, hence why those stations are usually more crowded.

[JustTheSIR]

17 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I always think of an alternate reality where Brooklyn grew to be much denser and Fulton St was somewhat akin to Queens Blvd. A new tunnel in Manhattan would've needed to have been built, my guess is using the existing Court St station. It's just weird to think how both IND Fulton St line and IND QBLVD line are both quad-tracked IND lines in the outer-boroughs, yet they've diverged so much in terms of ridership.

 

So much of the Fulton St line feels like an errie liminal space

Nostrand Avenue as backrooms level 1940 when

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

12 hours ago, TMC said:

The difference between Fulton Street and Queens Blvd comes from the fact that Downtown Brooklyn was originally a much larger and more important job center than it is today, so its subway infrastructure is wildly overbuilt for the traffic coming into and through it. Long Island City grew as an extension of the Midtown Manhattan "blob", and is now much more important than Downtown Brooklyn, being the largest secondary center in the city, as far as I remember. Downtown Brooklyn also spreads its ridership over 3 major stops, and a few more less major stops, while Long Island City does not have as much infrastructure, hence why those stations are usually more crowded.

In general, Queens subway network is underdeveloped relative to Brooklyn, and this is for a variety of reasons. In general at the time of dual contracts, Brooklyn was already much more built up so getting subway service there was a more immediate priority. Furthermore, the fighting between the BRT/BMT and IRT over who would get to build routes in Queens didn't help. Finally, you just have the geography that contributes to this imbalance; basically, all Southbound trains go into Brooklyn, whereas Northbound trains split between serving upper Manhattan/The Bronx and Queens; you'd have to have a lot of crosstown lines or lines that end in Lower Manhattan if you ever wanted Queens to have the same subway capacity as Brooklyn.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

5 hours ago, JustTheSIR said:

Nostrand Avenue as backrooms level 1940 when

It's the huge mezzanines on a lot of the lower ridership local stations that really do it for me. Lafayette Av has it's mezzanine mostly all open and it always just feels so empty and could def be made into a backrooms level.

[TMC]

28 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

In general, Queens subway network is underdeveloped relative to Brooklyn, and this is for a variety of reasons. In general at the time of dual contracts, Brooklyn was already much more built up so getting subway service there was a more immediate priority. Furthermore, the fighting between the BRT/BMT and IRT over who would get to build routes in Queens didn't help. Finally, you just have the geography that contributes to this imbalance; basically, all Southbound trains go into Brooklyn, whereas Northbound trains split between serving upper Manhattan/The Bronx and Queens; you'd have to have a lot of crosstown lines or lines that end in Lower Manhattan if you ever wanted Queens to have the same subway capacity as Brooklyn.

Queens actually isn't too bad capacity-wise. Flushing is overcrowded, but empties out at Jackson Heights, crowding the Queens Blvd Expresses. It fills back up, then empties out at Queensboro Plaza, crowding the Astoria Line going into the 60th Street Tubes. It then runs pretty light until Manhattan, where it is used as a crosstown, and traffic is quite heavy. A line along Northern Blvd to the LIRR at Broadway, running along 50th Street in Manhattan, then out towards New Jersey would address this. De-Interlining is useful here too. Some extensions in Eastern Queens to the Hillside Ave Line, the IND Archer Ave Line (along Merrick and Linden to Cambria Heights), and the Flushing Line to College Point are plausible. Another capacity booster would be modernizing commuter rail, and running it like rapid transit, with integrated fares. 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

3 minutes ago, TMC said:

Queens actually isn't too bad capacity-wise. Flushing is overcrowded, but empties out at Jackson Heights, crowding the Queens Blvd Expresses. It fills back up, then empties out at Queensboro Plaza, crowding the Astoria Line going into the 60th Street Tubes. It then runs pretty light until Manhattan, where it is used as a crosstown, and traffic is quite heavy. A line along Northern Blvd to the LIRR at Broadway, running along 50th Street in Manhattan, then out towards New Jersey would address this. De-Interlining is useful here too. Some extensions in Eastern Queens to the Hillside Ave Line, the IND Archer Ave Line (along Merrick and Linden to Cambria Heights), and the Flushing Line to College Point are plausible. Another capacity booster would be modernizing commuter rail, and running it like rapid transit, with integrated fares. 

Crowding on QBLVD is less of a concern IMO; even though the expresses  and  see more crowding, most recent population growth works in favor of the local stations.  train I'm worried for long term because there's been decent growth on the corridor, and it doesn't have any sort of clear alternative. Astoria should be fine as it's only the 60th St tunnel that's crowded and the Astoria Line could theoretically get more tph if you re-arranged service patterns a bit.

I would say Queens biggest advantage over Brooklyn is LIRR is more robust, and making smtg like the Port Washington Branch a high-capacity commuter rail line could go a long ways. You also just have abandoned and existing ROWs that could be made into subway, like Queenslink and the Southeast Queens Line.

One thing that really sucks about Queens current subway network is just all the feeder-busses because of the relative lack of coverage; it just adds a whole extra step to people's commutes and also contributes to crowding at certain stations.

One thing I was disappointed by was in the MTA's recent 20 year Needs Assessment, they looked into basically no mega-projects that would substantially expand transit access in Queens, other than Queenslink which I thought got unfair low marks. I think a lot of the never-completed Queens Super-express project should be re-looked at, especially the Southeast Queens line given it would expand subway access, add a new yard, would be relatively easy to construct (existing ROW), and fix the terrible Jamacia Center terminal on the , increasing capacity. Also, the hardest and most important parts of the Queens Super-express project have already been constructed, so re-visiting those plans would be easier than constructing a whole new trunk line.

[TMC]

50 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

One thing I was disappointed by was in the MTA's recent 20 year Needs Assessment, they looked into basically no mega-projects that would substantially expand transit access in Queens, other than Queenslink which I thought got unfair low marks. I think a lot of the never-completed Queens Super-express project should be re-looked at, especially the Southeast Queens line given it would expand subway access, add a new yard, would be relatively easy to construct (existing ROW), and fix the terrible Jamacia Center terminal on the , increasing capacity. Also, the hardest and most important parts of the Queens Super-express project have already been constructed, so re-visiting those plans would be easier than constructing a whole new trunk line.

The Queens Super-Express and Southeast Queens Line don't really make sense under modernized commuter rail. You could simply extend the  down Merrick and Linden Blvds to Cambria Heights, and those riders get an express ride on Queens Blvd. 

[TMC]

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Crowding on QBLVD is less of a concern IMO; even though the expresses  and  see more crowding, most recent population growth works in favor of the local stations.  train I'm worried for long term because there's been decent growth on the corridor, and it doesn't have any sort of clear alternative. Astoria should be fine as it's only the 60th St tunnel that's crowded and the Astoria Line could theoretically get more tph if you re-arranged service patterns a bit.

On this, it is mainly the expresses, which de-interlining would likely fix. It would balance traffic between 53rd Street and 63rd Street, while improving reliability, and allowing more frequent local service. The  has been an issue for a while, and that corridor is still not at its peak population. That's why I say long-term, Northern Blvd going into a line across 50th Street to New Jersey would be a very good idea.

[TDL]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:46 PM, MTA Researcher said:

Wally, thank you for advocating!

The reason they don't do that is because Queens riders want 49th Street, So Broadway Local service is what's demanded for Astoria. 

The problem is that means yard access becomes an issue. Here's how I'd do it:

- Astoria-Coney Island, via Broadway Local/Brighton Local.(stops at Dekalb on the current  platform).

-unchanged. This would cause a weekday only choke point at Dekalb. It could also be suspended, but that won't go over well.

-unchanged

-96th St-Coney Is via Broadway Express/4th Ave Express/Sea Beach.

-becomes a local to Forest Hills.

stays on 53rd,  to 63rd. 

-Jamaica Center-Bay Ridge, via. QBL Express/63rd St/Broadway Express/Bridge/4th Ave Local (stops at Dekalb on the current platform)

 

 

[TMC]

1 hour ago, TDL said:

The reason they don't do that is because Queens riders want 49th Street, So Broadway Local service is what's demanded for Astoria. 

I hear this, but never saw a proper source. I'm skeptical. 

[Kamen Rider]

2 hours ago, TMC said:

I hear this, but never saw a proper source. I'm skeptical. 

Pre-pandemic, 49th street was the busiest non-transfer station on the core Broadway Line, ranking 50th.

[TMC]

3 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Pre-pandemic, 49th street was the busiest non-transfer station on the core Broadway Line, ranking 50th.

This makes sense, 50th Street is the equator of peak job density in Midtown.
 

That being said, 49th Street should only be served by locals, because of the terrible capacity impacts from switching at 34th (or even 57th)

[Kamen Rider]

1 hour ago, TMC said:

This makes sense, 50th Street is the equator of peak job density in Midtown.
 

That being said, 49th Street should only be served by locals, because of the terrible capacity impacts from switching at 34th (or even 57th)

As opposed to the terrible capacity impacts of cutting the number of trains at such a popular station?

[TMC]

32 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

As opposed to the terrible capacity impacts of cutting the number of trains at such a popular station?

They’d actually get *more* trains.

[Kamen Rider]

Rerouting the November does not suddenly create more Whiskeys. That’s not how this works at all. 

[Lex]

44 minutes ago, TMC said:

They’d actually get *more* trains.

The way I understand it, Whitehall Street and the S curve in the Financial District kneecap capacity for anything using that general stretch (~21 tph) far more than the branching and switching north of Herald Square (currently scheduled for 23-25 tph max). Please explain how 21 is greater than 23.

[TDL]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

The way I understand it, Whitehall Street and the S curve in the Financial District kneecap capacity for anything using that general stretch (~21 tph) far more than the branching and switching north of Herald Square (currently scheduled for 23-25 tph max). Please explain how 21 is greater than 23.

For his plan to work and add more trains they would have to be cut back to Canal upper or City Hall lower. Not ideal.

[TMC]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

The way I understand it, Whitehall Street and the S curve in the Financial District kneecap capacity for anything using that general stretch (~21 tph) far more than the branching and switching north of Herald Square (currently scheduled for 23-25 tph max). Please explain how 21 is greater than 23.

I doubt that curve limits capacity to 21 TPH, it might be a signaling issue (which is fixable, tons of capacity and speed limitations occur due to bad signal design/placement, i.e. Eastern Pkwy Express). There are curves just as sharp, or sharper elsewhere around the world that don't have such limitations. 

[TMC]

6 minutes ago, TDL said:

For his plan to work and add more trains they would have to be cut back to Canal upper or City Hall lower. Not ideal.

To be on the safe side, I'd plan 20 TPH on both the Broadway Express and the Broadway Local all the way from 57th Street to Canal Street. 3 minutes vs. 2.4 minutes is not a noticeable difference to the majority of passengers, and most of the crowding occurs on the  from Queensboro Plaza (probably people ditching the ), which currently runs 15 TPH last I checked. I believe the MTA has very conservative assumptions about the limitations of termini across the system, so I had someone else comb through the math using a POV video of the N. Capacity=Entry Time+Dwell Time+Platform Clearing Time, and based on that, they figured out that Ditmars can turn 20 TPH with marginally better operations than today, without any changes to the interlocking, or recalibration of signaling.  

[Wallyhorse]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:11 AM, TDL said:

The reason they don't do that is because Queens riders want 49th Street, So Broadway Local service is what's demanded for Astoria. 

The problem is that means yard access becomes an issue. Here's how I'd do it:

- Astoria-Coney Island, via Broadway Local/Brighton Local.(stops at Dekalb on the current  platform).

-unchanged. This would cause a weekday only choke point at Dekalb. It could also be suspended, but that won't go over well.

-unchanged

-96th St-Coney Is via Broadway Express/4th Ave Express/Sea Beach.

-becomes a local to Forest Hills.

stays on 53rd,  to 63rd. 

-Jamaica Center-Bay Ridge, via. QBL Express/63rd St/Broadway Express/Bridge/4th Ave Local (stops at Dekalb on the current platform)

This is good, but as I would do it:

 goes to Nassau and runs Bay Ridge-Canal Street (with the abandoned northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery reopened and Canal converted back to the terminal it once was).  This  as previously noted would be based out of East New York and would have in-service yard runs from/to Broadway Junction,  Late nights and weekends, this  is extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the shuttles unless the is running to 96th/2nd.  

 is shortened to Chambers except for a handful of rush hour runs from/to Broad Street.

becomes full-time (except late nights) and runs Whitehall to 71st-Continental (at peak times and otherwise when necessary, some trains run from and to the tunnel level platform at Canal Street).  

, ,   and   are unchanged EXCEPT the no longer stops at 49th Street (merge/unmerge with the locals now happens at 57th Street).

A new "Yellow " operates (no more than 6 TPH) from 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the to Astoria to supplement the and cover those who ride the Broadway line via Montague and operate seven days a week.  This and the  would stop at 49th Street and make all other Broadway local stops.

I still think moving the  to Nassau helps solve that line's problems be severely shortening the route while the  can replace it to Forest Hills and the new can supplement the  in Queens.  People who current travel to 49th can either way if necessary transfer to/from the local at 57th for 49th.  

[TMC]

12 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

 goes to Nassau and runs Bay Ridge-Canal Street (with the abandoned northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery reopened and Canal converted back to the terminal it once was).  This  as previously noted would be based out of East New York and would have in-service yard runs from/to Broadway Junction,  Late nights and weekends, this  is extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the shuttles unless the is running to 96th/2nd.

Nassau shouldn't interact with the rest of the system, being a very weak stub line, in a system where demand trends toward Midtown. 

[Wallyhorse]

2 hours ago, TMC said:

Nassau shouldn't interact with the rest of the system, being a very weak stub line, in a system where demand trends toward Midtown. 

This is specifically about solving longtime problems with the and as I would do it, it would only have a handful of "Yellow " trains and during rush hours a handful of trains to deal with.  Unfortunately, the Nassau line at Canal, Essex and to a lesser degree Chambers provide the only places to do that and that is why I make the  brown.  Anyone on 4th Avenue south of 36th would likely transfer to the at 59th or 36th anyway (and likewise, those between 36th and Atlantic Avenue would transfer at Atlantic Avenue anyway) and those looking specifically for the stations between Atlantic Avenue on the 4th Avenue line and Canal Street on the Broadway line can do a same platform transfer between the and the "Yellow " ( late nights) anywhere between 36th and Court Street.  There are more than enough transfer options to other lines as well that would allow this  to run on Nassau to Canal (with in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction and late nights and weekends extended to Metropolitan Avenue specifically to eliminate the need for the shuttles when those currently run).  Most people would adjust, only those who are lazy and would take the  the full route would complain.

This setup also allows for less issues with merging on the  wherever it does merge with the (and in this case, the "Yellow ") in Manhattan.  

[TMC]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This is specifically about solving longtime problems with the and as I would do it, it would only have a handful of "Yellow " trains and during rush hours a handful of trains to deal with.  Unfortunately, the Nassau line at Canal, Essex and to a lesser degree Chambers provide the only places to do that and that is why I make the  brown.  Anyone on 4th Avenue south of 36th would likely transfer to the at 59th or 36th anyway (and likewise, those between 36th and Atlantic Avenue would transfer at Atlantic Avenue anyway) and those looking specifically for the stations between Atlantic Avenue on the 4th Avenue line and Canal Street on the Broadway line can do a same platform transfer between the and the "Yellow " ( late nights) anywhere between 36th and Court Street.  There are more than enough transfer options to other lines as well that would allow this  to run on Nassau to Canal (with in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction and late nights and weekends extended to Metropolitan Avenue specifically to eliminate the need for the shuttles when those currently run).  Most people would adjust, only those who are lazy and would take the  the full route would complain.

This setup also allows for less issues with merging on the  wherever it does merge with the (and in this case, the "Yellow ") in Manhattan

You’re trying to solve the issue with the  by doing way too much. 
 

What I would do is this:

 

: Coney Island via Brighton Local (15 TPH)

: Brighton Beach via Brighton Express (15 TPH) 

: Broad Street to Jamaica Center (10 TPH)

: Broad Street to Metropolitan Avenue (10 TPH)

: 96th Street to Coney Island via Broadway Express/4th Ave Express/Sea Beach (10 TPH)

: 96th Street to Coney Island via Broadway Express/4th Ave Express/West End (10 TPH)

: Astoria to Bay Ridge via Broadway Local/4th Ave Local (10 TPH)

: Astoria to Whitehall Street via Broadway Local (10 TPH)

 

Any transfer penalty would be equivalent to zero or close to zero, and reliability along the 4th Ave Line would be drastically improved. 

[MTA Researcher]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:11 AM, TDL said:

The reason they don't do that is because Queens riders want 49th Street, So Broadway Local service is what's demanded for Astoria. 

Well if this is really true…. So be it… but I need evidence like a chart or something.

If the chart proves me wrong on Astoria-Bway Exp preference then this would be what I have in mind…

 

Broadway:

 96 - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp - Sea Beach

 96 - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp - West End

 Astoria - Whitehall: Astoria/Broadway Lcl

  Astoria Exp

 uses CI Yard
 

6 Av:

 205 - CI: CPW/6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

  Concourse Exp

  Unchanged except now via 53rd

 71 - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl - 6 Av/Brighton Exp via 63rd

8 Av

  Unchanged

 JC -Euclid: QBL/8 Av Exp - Fulton St Lcl

 BPB or 168 - WTC: Concourse/CPW/8 Av Lcl

Nassau St

 Cut back to Chambers

  Metro Av -95 St: Nassau St/4 Av Lcl

 

Other Individual Lines

 extend to 71 Av

 

Eliminated Lines:

 absorbed by  

 useless line

 

Thingssure get off topic don’ they?

48 minutes ago, TMC said:

: Astoria to Bay Ridge via Broadway Local/4th Ave Local (10 TPH)

What about  accessing a yard?

[JustTheSIR]

1 hour ago, MTA Researcher said:

What about  accessing a yard?

Funny part is that’s the reason the MTA changed the ‘s north terminal in the first place

Edited October 25, 2023 by JustTheSIR