Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[ActiveCity]

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Check out my fantasy map.

[Lawrence St]

I propose eliminating Harlem-148th St station, and instead rerouting the  over the  to 3rd Avenue, where a new replacement 3rd Avenue Elevated will be built (as a two-track line), rebuilding all original stations, back to Gun Hill Road. This new routing now allows the ,  and  to share the same fleet and interline with each other.

[BreeddekalbL]

19 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I propose eliminating Harlem-148th St station, and instead rerouting the  over the  to 3rd Avenue, where a new replacement 3rd Avenue Elevated will be built (as a two-track line), rebuilding all original stations, back to Gun Hill Road. This new routing now allows the ,  and  to share the same fleet and interline with each other.

What would happen with the yard there?

Also previously i proposed making 3rd ave go with an Sas service. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by BreeddekalbL

[Lawrence St]

3 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

What would happen with the yard there?

Also previously i proposed making 3rd ave go with an Sas service. 

Screw the yard! Demolish all of it, the  can use New Lots & 219th St for yards.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

7 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

What would happen with the yard there?

Also previously i proposed making 3rd ave go with an Sas service. 

Can't the yard still exist even if  were re-routed, it would just no longer be a station. You'd want to be careful though cause having the  all going through 149th St Junction would be a disaster. Perhaps as part of this project the junction would be rebuilt.

[BreeddekalbL]

20 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Screw the yard! Demolish all of it, the  can use New Lots & 219th St for yards.

I think you mean 239?

[Lex]

What, is University Avenue chopped liver?

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I propose eliminating Harlem-148th St station, and instead rerouting the  over the  to 3rd Avenue, where a new replacement 3rd Avenue Elevated will be built (as a two-track line), rebuilding all original stations, back to Gun Hill Road. This new routing now allows the ,  and  to share the same fleet and interline with each other.

 

10 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

What would happen with the yard there?

Also previously i proposed making 3rd ave go with an Sas service. 

 

10 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Can't the yard still exist even if  were re-routed, it would just no longer be a station. You'd want to be careful though cause having the  all going through 149th St Junction would be a disaster. Perhaps as part of this project the junction would be rebuilt.

As I remember, 148-Lenox was a yard LONG before they put a station there.  I believe they simply put a platform between two tracks there to do it.

As for the idea of rebuilding the Bronx 3rd Avenue EL, I have time and again proposed that for the Bronx portion of the SAS.  As I would do it, a rebuilt Bronx 3rd Avenue EL (or subway) as I would do it now would likely have the continue on 2nd Avenue instead of turning to Lexington with the , possibly with three tracks allowing for a peak-direction express in The Bronx.  The stops I would do are these:

126th Street-2nd Avenue (if subway) OR 127th Street-2nd Avenue (if elevated) as the last stop in Manhattan as an express stop if built as three tracks, if elevated going over a new, rail-only bridge to The Bronx (if necessary for an EL, this stop could instead be at 128th Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenues before going over such a rail-only bridge and if so, built with a provision to allow for later rebuilding a 3rd Avenue EL that would be set to B division standards if it ever got rebuilt), 

138th Street-3rd Avenue (express, transfer to ) 

149th Street (express, transfer to )

155th Street (local)

163rd Street (local)

170th Street (local)

Tremont Avenue (express)

183rd Street (local)

Fordham Road (express, line at this point turns left of Fordham Road and then right onto Webster Avenue)

Bedford Park Boulevard-Webster Avenue (local)

Moshulu Parkway-Webster Avenue (local, line turns left at 204th Street and goes to Perry Avenue)

Norwood-205th Street (Perry Avenue, express, transfer to , line turns right on Gun Hill Road to White Plains Road) 

Gun Hill Road (terminal, likely on a new upper level if elevated, transfer to )

 

As for the , that line I would do where after the  turns of to head to the Bronx, the  goes to a new, above-ground full length station at 145 and then somewhere south of the Macombs Dam Bridge go over a new, rail-only bridge to the Bronx with a new stop at the 153rd Street-Yankees Station above the Metro North Station there and then going over to where it joins the  at 161-Yankee Stadium and then continues with the  to Woodlawn (during rush hours, some  trains could end and begin at Burnside Avenue or Bedford Park Boulevard).

 

 

[TMC]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:47 AM, Lawrence St said:

I propose eliminating Harlem-148th St station, and instead rerouting the  over the  to 3rd Avenue, where a new replacement 3rd Avenue Elevated will be built (as a two-track line), rebuilding all original stations, back to Gun Hill Road. This new routing now allows the ,  and  to share the same fleet and interline with each other.

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

[Theli11]

1 hour ago, TMC said:

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

I agree with your assertion that it shouldn't be branched off of WPR, but I disagree with the fact that the commuter rail corridor is enough. The second avenue subway can go up 3rd/Webster, through 3rd Av-138th/149th St, and go crosstown on either Fordham or Gun Hill Road. I think that the train will provide connections that will satisfy people more than the Metro North can because it's local and because it's going to be a quicker way to connect Central Bronx with the  to Central Harlem, the  to East Midtown and the multitude of trains in midtown. the will now be more accessible meaning that it's easier to get to Queens than before on the subway providing better connections to LGA and JFK. Not only that but by sending the to Co-Op City, You'd be serving both Fordham, Pelham Pkwy and Central Bronx with a two stop ride to anywhere they want in Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens. It's easier for people to do that with the subway than it is for people to do that with commuter rail. In my eyes, Third Avenue is really just a means to get to Fordham Plaza and branch out from there. 

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, TMC said:

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

How is that worse interlining? The  is the biggest flaw in the operations for WPR because of 149th St junction and East 180th St. While the  adds on a little bit, the benefits would be better overall.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, TMC said:

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

3rd Avenue gets proposed because that\s where the EL was. 

[Theli11]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

How is that worse interlining? The  is the biggest flaw in the operations for WPR because of 149th St junction and East 180th St. While the  adds on a little bit, the benefits would be better overall.

It's worse interlining because there's 3 trains being merged into each other. On the southbound track the merges with the and the which have already merged with each other at E 180th St (or Jackson Av) and on the northbound track the and merge with the at 149th-GC. Personally I don't think the is the way to go here at all and the SAS would be the best line for 3rd Avenue. If you want to send the into the Bronx I'd say send it to University to alleviate some congestion off of 149th - GC. Make 145th St the last stop in Harlem and make the first stop Yankee Stadium (barely hitting the southern end of the station) then running under the El Grant stoping at Plimpton Av ending the line at Kingsbridge- South Riverdale. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

5 hours ago, TMC said:

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

I’ve long wanted to see them run more locals starting at Mt Vernon West to better serve Central and North Bronx transit riders. I’m sure there’s plenty of capacity for more of these trains.

[TMC]

13 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’ve long wanted to see them run more locals starting at Mt Vernon West to better serve Central and North Bronx transit riders. I’m sure there’s plenty of capacity for more of these trains.

There is, but I’d want them to start at NWP and Southeast. 
 

14 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

3rd Avenue gets proposed because that\s where the EL was. 

So?

 

16 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

How is that worse interlining? The  is the biggest flaw in the operations for WPR because of 149th St junction and East 180th St. While the  adds on a little bit, the benefits would be better overall.

Yeah, I’d rather see the  replace the  up to Dyre, as far as I understand your proposal, the  would still have a reverse-branch with the  and .

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:42 AM, TMC said:

There is, but I’d want them to start at NWP and Southeast. 
 

Certainly they could run more Harlem Line service overall but I was focused on the Bronx segment of the line where stations have criminally less train service than they can and should. 

[TMC]

20 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Certainly they could run more Harlem Line service overall but I was focused on the Bronx segment of the line where stations have criminally less train service than they can and should. 

Yeah, and the Bronx would get more service as a result of turning more trains at NWP and Southeast. I think 24 TPH total serving the Bronx stations up to NWP is adequate, running Harlem Line trains purely local.

[Vulturious]

Here is a fun, yet unorthodox concept I came up with. The idea here is moving the  to run along Crosstown with a new connection to run with the  to/from Jay St into/out of Manhattan while using the NYTM tracks to separate from interfering with the . I had a similar concept a while back I shared using the  as primary Fulton Local service with connections using the NYTM tracks to Jay St, but with a southbound at-grade junction. I decided not to do that here with the , but not sure how viable it is compared to the  proposal.

Service during weekdays would basically follow current service pattern for the , only via Crosstown and through Rutgers. Late nights would basically just be moving the shuttle southern terminus to Bedford-Nostrand on the middle track, no interfering with the . Only problem is what to do with weekend service, one other option I thought of was to just run current weekend service to Essex St with a shuttle service operating between Myrtle Av and Bedford-Nostrand during those times. 

What makes this concept fun is the addition of alternatives, flexibility, and redundancy. Not only does this provide an alternative for the  in general in case something were to happen between Myrtle Av and Essex St, the  has at least one other way in and out of Manhattan that lets it get to Metropolitan Av. This also introduces some fun reroutes like if the  were to be rerouted via Crosstown, it could easily loop back around into Manhattan or if the  were to have issues getting to Euclid, it can be rerouted at Jay St to run with the  to Myrtle Av (depending on if it still has the 8 car R179's, obviously).

This is merely just a concept, not something to be taken seriously if it's a bad idea.

[Wallyhorse]

Very interesting:

I notice you have the  in this version using a rebuilt upper level of Myrtle that I would use along with a short stretch of the old Myrtle EL that would connect the existing portion of the Myrtle EL with the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle that would all stations on the current Franklin shuttle rebuilt to (and on the Myrtle EL built to handle) 600' trains as part of the Myrtle-Brighton line that I suggested with the old Tompkins Avenue station from the rebuilt and then going to a stop at most likely Bedford-Nostrand (transfer to ) before reaching Franklin Avenue and absorbing the Franklin shuttle line and then continuing as a second Brighton Local to Coney Island as a "Black " train. 

Do you have the Throop Avenue station in your version as Elevated or Subway?

[Vulturious]

43 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Very interesting:

I notice you have the  in this version using a rebuilt upper level of Myrtle that I would use along with a short stretch of the old Myrtle EL that would connect the existing portion of the Myrtle EL with the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle that would all stations on the current Franklin shuttle rebuilt to (and on the Myrtle EL built to handle) 600' trains as part of the Myrtle-Brighton line that I suggested with the old Tompkins Avenue station from the rebuilt and then going to a stop at most likely Bedford-Nostrand (transfer to ) before reaching Franklin Avenue and absorbing the Franklin shuttle line and then continuing as a second Brighton Local to Coney Island as a "Black " train. 

Do you have the Throop Avenue station in your version as Elevated or Subway?

Not sure how useful this new service would be in all honesty. While I do like the idea of reconstructing the Franklin Av Shuttle to be able to handle more than just a 2-75 feet long cars, doesn't seem practical as the new Brighton Local service.

Idealy, the new station would be somewhere in between Myrtle Av and Bedford-Nostrand Avs which would be elevated. Had someone suggest having the station located on the north-south portion of the connection rather than along Lafayette Av.

I wanted to include platform extensions along the Myrtle Av EL, but I felt like other stations along all of the Brooklyn-Broadway including the Nassau St line would need an extension, too. I'll probably have that be a thing anyway because it is a proposal after all and it's not like this would ever be a thing anyway (unless the MTA magically sees this proposal and actually wants to make this a reality, why not).

[Amiri the subway guy]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:08 PM, TMC said:

I don’t get why 3rd Avenue is proposed so much, there’s a parallel commuter rail corridor that’s ripe for improvement, and 3rd Ave itself has demand levels in line with a tramway, not a subway line, judging by the Bx15’s ridership. It certainly shouldn’t be a branch off of WPR, causing worse interlining under your configuration. 

Because metro north only stops one stop in midtown  

[TMC]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:01 AM, Amiri the subway guy said:

Because metro north only stops one stop in midtown  

That shouldn't matter, it takes pressure off of the subway by acting as a super-express, going where the majority of people commute to.

[Wallyhorse]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:43 AM, Vulturious said:

Not sure how useful this new service would be in all honesty. While I do like the idea of reconstructing the Franklin Av Shuttle to be able to handle more than just a 2-75 feet long cars, doesn't seem practical as the new Brighton Local service.

Idealy, the new station would be somewhere in between Myrtle Av and Bedford-Nostrand Avs which would be elevated. Had someone suggest having the station located on the north-south portion of the connection rather than along Lafayette Av.

I wanted to include platform extensions along the Myrtle Av EL, but I felt like other stations along all of the Brooklyn-Broadway including the Nassau St line would need an extension, too. I'll probably have that be a thing anyway because it is a proposal after all and it's not like this would ever be a thing anyway (unless the MTA magically sees this proposal and actually wants to make this a reality, why not).

My "Black " would be a SECOND Brighton Local with either the or  being the other.  Late nights and weekends. the would operate as it does now with both lines on late nights and weekends being local.   I would also design such so trains on that line from both sides have access in both directions to the Myrtle EL in case of an emergency.

 

[40 to 241st]

Not saying I would propose this but a someone once told me how the  and  should be extended to Yonkers the to Mt Vernon, and the  to Nassau. I want to know could that work and what do you guys think about that. 

[Theli11]

On 7/14/2023 at 3:00 PM, TMC said:

That shouldn't matter, it takes pressure off of the subway by acting as a super-express, going where the majority of people commute to.

Yeah but you'd be making people transfer to a downtown train if they need to go further down. Why take Metro North if they can just take 1 train right where you need to go.