Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2020 at 11:57 PM, EvilMonologue said:

The Nassau line definitely needs to be looked at in a critical way, especially given the popularity of the  (look at that it only took me 20 posts to figure that out haha). Sending the Brown  to Bay Ridge isn't really that much more valuable just because people still ultimately want to go to Midtown, and this is just an inherent flaw with the Nassau line. 

In the medium term (hopefully) maybe you could do it this way. The  and  take over the  and  in Brooklyn and Queens once the southern section of the 2 av (with provisions for 4 tracks) replaces  and  service on the Manhattan Bridge (under a de-interlining scheme). Stop consolidation should occur along today's line, also making sure to combine Hewes and Lorimer stations for a better transfer with the . A 3rd track connecting to Cypress Hills station and platform extensions should be done as well. The Manhattan portion of the  is now a downtown shuttle.

In the long term (again hopefully but realistically never), this is what I'd like to see. Start the Utica av line as a  extension, but with the intention of shaving back platforms for eventual B Division conversion. The line would go first from Av U to the . And then once it was converted, extended to the  and , then to the (at this point)  and , and as far as the  and the  eventually. The goal would be to have a line with an obvious connection to the  and  and 2 av, you'd just need to build the tunnel. When the other 2 tracks for 2 av are built, they would take over the  south of the Bowery station. To have the  and  connect to the Utica av line, introduce a new 5 av line which would go over the Williamsburg Bridge and would go to Middle Village and Jamaica on today's  and  lines. 

Breaking up the Nassau line, in the long term, is probably the best way to increase ridership along the corridor to provide Midtown access. In the medium term this can be done by replacing  and  service with  and  but in the long term, we'd hope to see the number of services in the outer boroughs increase with the number of services in Manhattan. Sending the  and  down Utica av and the  and  up 5 av might be the long term solution to that.

It does. The Nassau St Line was a product of its time when it was built over 100 years ago, back when Lower Manhattan was the City’s largest job center, a status it would lose a few decades later. At least with the Chrystie St connection, riders from the Jamaica and Myrtle els can get to Midtown without piling onto the  in Brooklyn or the  in Manhattan. But you’re left with the Manhattan portion of the line south of Essex. Making that a shuttle seems like it would be taking a step towards abandoning it. Maybe the downtown shuttle train you described can instead be a  train between Jamaica Center and Broad that runs peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, while either the  or  starts/ends at Broadway Jct, and the other 6th Ave service starts/ends at Metropolitan. 

I think you're right on splitting the Nassau Line long (medium?)-term. And 2nd Ave should definitely have a four-track alignment in Phases 3 and 4, or be designed to easily be upgraded from two to four tracks, so two of those tracks can go to Broad.

Edited March 27, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, Collin said:

I think de-interlining needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.  It doesn't make sense in every scenario.  Some lines don't have problematic merges, and others do.  In some cases, the cost of de-interlining outweighs the benefit by creating inconvenient transfers.  One area I don't think should be de-interlined is CPW.  It's designed to have local and express service coming from both Washington Heights and The Bronx, and heading to both 8th and 6th Avenue.  There also is no opportunity to create a service that operates alone it's entire route (like the  or ) since every service on it has to merge with another further down the line. There are other cases like this where it doesn't make sense to de-interline.

Broadway on the other hand is a perfect opportunity to de-interline because it's possible to create a local service from Astoria all the way to Bay Ridge that never merges.  It also has inefficient merges in the current service pattern.

While I agree with you on the fact that De-Interlining should be looked at on a Case By Case basis, but I have to disagree with you on when you said that large-scale De-Interlining doesn't make sense. Ima use CPW as an example of a case, in which I highlighted your quote in bold.

Yes, I agree with you on the fact that that CPW is designed to have both Express and Local service come from BOTH Washington Heights and Concourse, and that it should stay that way since 145th Street Junction was designed to handle that kind of pattern. But I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact that both local and expresses need both 8th and 6th Local/Express service. At 59th Street, you have the  and merging together going southbound, the /  and / merge  going northbound. Given that trains hold between 30 Seconds minimum and I'd say about 3 Minutes maximum, that's run time that you're adding to each line when it gets held near that point. Thus, the merge is posed as a bottleneck. De-Interlining CPW at 59th would eliminate the need of holding trains in that general area, but now you're left with a choice. Which trunk do you give the express to and which trunk do you give the local to. If you were to de-interline this bottleneck here without affecting the rest of the system, you would do the following:

• and Trains would run CPW Express
•  and Trains would run CPW Local
• Trains run to Norwood-205th and extended to 10 Cars, while the Trains would run up to Bedford Park Blvd. 
• Trains run to 168th. On weekends the would make 2 extra stops at 155th and 163rd. 

Now the trade off here would be the following (Green being a gain and red being a loss): 

• Trains are no longer held at 59th, thus allowing for a more flexible schedule
• Service Capacity Can be increased by about 4-6 TPH
• Train Service can be extended to 10 Cars = 20-30% Capacity Increase
• The Merge at Canal Street will no longer occur, allowing for faster/more reliable service
• 50th Street Loses Upper Level Local Service, passenger would go to 7th Ave or 42nd Street for the  or walk. 

Now judging by the trade-offs listed, would you now consider De-Interlining at 59th Street? Keep in mind that there are alternatives to the proposal that I just brought up. 

Now as for Broadway, while De-Interlining at 34th Street-Herald Square is ideal, there are a couple of factors that prevent it from coming into fruition:

1. Astoria-Ditmars Blvd's Terminal Capacity is barely able to handle 14-16 TPH. Mainly due to the layout of the interlocking's and in addition (likely) poor dispatching. 
2. The tight curve between City Hall and Cortlandt Street impose a heavy speed limit of about 10-15 MPH. This in addition to poorly performing fixed-block signals limits overall capacity on Broadway Local to 21 TPH. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
3. Whitehall Street is just a bad terminal with a turning capacity of 7-8 TPH.
4. There is also no Yard for the Train (though converting 36th-38th Street to handle Passenger Trains Seems like a Short term Solution). 

These issues are issues that can be solved with Capital Investment, Investments (aside from CBTC Technology) that the Should be looking at after this whole virus thing is over. Until these issues are solved, I'm afraid that we might be stuck with Broadway with the way it is. Hope whatever I said was informative, and if there's anything I missed then you can look at this thread's history. If not, then there are other members here in the Forums that can shed more light on this topic. 

[Theli11]

Wouldn't you'd still have a merge between and service, and and service? And with and service when trains run local along with trains unless you're doing express local, which would still be a merge when the (or ) becomes local in 1 direction? You're just moving the merge uptown. 

If you want to deinterline 34 St - Hearld Sq (Broadway) you're going to have to make and trains both go to 96 St, at all times, trains should go to Astoria, and either we cut the or we move the terminal to Forest Hills (But it's a step back), Which could also be de-interlined into  local and express. You wouldn't even need a second service because the would be running at max capacity. We could even create a Queens Plaza - Queensboro Plaza Transfer, so that there is access to Broadway along Queens Blvd. run full capacity [14 trains per hour] we could fix the switches to handle more, and service isn't needed anymore. 

DeKalb could be deinterlined with going along Brighton, and trains going along 4th Av [Swapping and trains]. If there isn't enough service at Bay Ridge, then we can just have a train start at Whitehall and end at Bay Ridge going [7-8 TBH] and trains going [14 TBH] for a total of 21 TBH. 

And finally that god awful Roger's Junction can just have trains go down Nostrand Avenue, and trains go down New Lots (with trains ending at Utica). That way it'll make a lot of things easier. and way more fluid service in terms of routing.

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It does. The Nassau St Line was a product of its time when it was built over 100 years ago, back when Lower Manhattan was the City’s largest job center, a status it would lose a few decades later. At least with the Chrystie St connection, riders from the Jamaica and Myrtle els can get to Midtown without piling onto the  in Brooklyn or the  in Manhattan. But you’re left with the Manhattan portion of the line south of Essex. Making that a shuttle seems like it would be taking a step towards abandoning it. Maybe the downtown shuttle train you described can instead be a  train between Jamaica Center and Broad that runs peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, while either the  or  starts/ends at Broadway Jct, and the other 6th Ave service starts/ends at Metropolitan. 

I think you're right on splitting the Nassau Line long (medium?)-term. And 2nd Ave should definitely have a four-track alignment in Phases 3 and 4, or be designed to easily be upgraded from two to four tracks, so two of those tracks can go to Broad.

Agreed on Nassau; Canal-to-Chambers might be the right section for a split.  Redo Essex for 4 tracks, Canal to be a stub-end terminal like in old times for the and have tracks from Chambers re-routed to Chrystie St.  That way you could have the go into Brooklyn on the cheap (through Broad station, into Montague tunnel).

As to the /, long-term perhaps the TA should look at getting trains off the Manhattan Bridge; 4 tracks and 4 lines is maybe just too much of a structural strain for it.  Only alternative I can think of is if 6th Avenue express tracks were through-routed: back onto Houston, into a tunnel past 2nd Ave station, under the East River to South 4th station on IND Second System provisions, along Union Avenue, and then maybe tied into Franklin Ave station ? Who knows.

[JeremiahC99]

8 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Wouldn't you'd still have a merge between and service, and and service? And with and service when trains run local along with trains unless you're doing express local, which would still be a merge when the (or ) becomes local in 1 direction? You're just moving the merge uptown. 

The current system involves merging at Canal Street, 50th Street, 59th Street, and 145th Street. The deinterline plans knocks out Canal, 50th, and 59th Street, while maintaining the merging at 145th Street to retain express service on each northern end. It would also allow for more efficient scheduling, since currently the merging at 59th Street forces nearly the entire B division to schedule itself around it. With deinterlining, that will be no more.

17 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

As to the /, long-term perhaps the TA should look at getting trains off the Manhattan Bridge; 4 tracks and 4 lines is maybe just too much of a structural strain for it.  Only alternative I can think of is if 6th Avenue express tracks were through-routed: back onto Houston, into a tunnel past 2nd Ave station, under the East River to South 4th station on IND Second System provisions, along Union Avenue, and then maybe tied into Franklin Ave station ? Who knows.

At that point, if you want a South 4th Street Subway, I think it’s time to start looking into having that replace the Broadway and Myrtle Avenue Els to accommodate future growth in Northern Brooklyn and Queens and allow for all day 7-day bidirectional express service, speeding up commutes between Manhattan and the outer boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens (the current Broadway el has only three tracks, for express service in one direction).

[Collin]

I think losing upper level service to 50th Street is a big deal.  That's closing most of a station and deactivating two tracks.  The line is designed to be run with two local services.  One from CPW and one from Queens.  Any de-interlining scheme for QB that would result in a local service going past Forest Hills is a non-starter in my opinion.  Every time a local service has gone past Forest Hills, it was very unpopular and quickly cut back.  QB works pretty well as it is with the express to Archer, express to 179th, and and locals to Forest Hills/71st.  It will be even better with CBTC controlling the merge points.  Sending the  (or if they swap terminals) via 63rd could be an option), but that limits the amount of service that could be sent up Second Avenue.  Not sure if sending QB trains into two tunnels rather than 3 would be better.

As far as what could be done now to de-interline Broadway.  I see there being two options.  One is to max out 2nd Avenue by sending the  there at all times alongside the .  Local service would be split between Astoria and QB (via 60th).  This would likely be a service cut for Astoria since it still has to share 60th Street with trains from QB.  It also would not be sustainable when Phase 3 opens and  service starts, since it will require cutting Broadway-2nd Ave service to make room for.  There wouldn't be an opportunity to create any service that never shares track with another.

The other option is what I mentioned before, which is to have all local service come from Astoria and go via Lower Manhattan and tunnel to 4th Avenue local to Bay Ridge.  Express service would be split between 2nd Ave and QB (via 63rd).  I much prefer this option since it would allow one service to operate completely on it's own.  As far as the terminal issues limiting frequency, I think the end terminals at Astoria Ditmars and Bay Ridge would be maxed out, and any trains that couldn't fit in them would need to short turn.  A set of switches could easily be added to allow trains to short turn at Astoria Blvd, and right now they could also short turn at Queensboro Plaza.  For trains not able to go to Bay Ridge, they could short turn at Whitehall or somewhere on West End (though that creates another merge).

 

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Theli11 said:

Wouldn't you'd still have a merge between and service, and and service? And with and service when trains run local along with trains unless you're doing express local, which would still be a merge when the (or ) becomes local in 1 direction? You're just moving the merge uptown. 

The express merge would be between the and  instead of the  and . Therefore, the distribution between Express and Local service near 145th Street would not change at all. Only the services that are merging/splitting would change.

44 minutes ago, Collin said:

I think losing upper level service to 50th Street is a big deal.  That's closing most of a station and deactivating two tracks.  The line is designed to be run with two local services.  One from CPW and one from Queens.  Any de-interlining scheme for QB that would result in a local service going past Forest Hills is a non-starter in my opinion.  Every time a local service has gone past Forest Hills, it was very unpopular and quickly cut back.  QB works pretty well as it is with the express to Archer, express to 179th, and and locals to Forest Hills/71st.  It will be even better with CBTC controlling the merge points.  Sending the  (or if they swap terminals) via 63rd could be an option), but that limits the amount of service that could be sent up Second Avenue.  Not sure if sending QB trains into two tunnels rather than 3 would be better.

Well, more like half of a Station since the  is still using it under this scenario. The Local Tracks wouldn’t need to be deactivated as now you have space to layup a “gap” train. Say if a delay happened either north or south of 50th Street and a gap in service was created, you would now have a train (or 2) so fill in for that service gap that was created. Also, 7th Avenue on the , 50th Street on the  and walking would prove as viable alternatives to this issue. 
 

For a QB Deinterlining scheme, you wouldn’t HAVE to send Local service to 179th. The best that is needed is to improve dispatching at Forest Hills and raise speed limits for higher terminal throughput. I’d say with what we have now, you could swap the  and  lines and you remove a merge at Queens Plaza. Downside is that 53rd might become crush loaded. If you wanted to do the  swap instead, you could send the  local via 53rd,  express to 63rd and have the  stop at Forest Hills while the  would replace the  going to Jamaica Center. This would ease the level of crowding at Roosevelt as riders would now have to choose what tunnel (and type of service) they’re trying to access. 

And regarding CBTC, interlockings and junctions under a CBTC system would still act as fixed block zones, so I’m not sure what the percentage reduction in merge delays would be. 
 

59 minutes ago, Collin said:

As far as what could be done now to de-interline Broadway.  I see there being two options.  One is to max out 2nd Avenue by sending the  there at all times alongside the .  Local service would be split between Astoria and QB (via 60th).  This would likely be a service cut for Astoria since it still has to share 60th Street with trains from QB.  It also would not be sustainable when Phase 3 opens and  service starts, since it will require cutting Broadway-2nd Ave service to make room for. There wouldn't be an opportunity to create any service that never shares track with another.

Phase 3 (and Phase 4 to a larger extent) in its current design is a waste of money as it enforces reverse branching. While I agree with maxing out SAS north, I disagree with cutting Astoria service. I’ll explain in my next reply with what I’d do with Astoria service, but if you wanted to keep an Astoria-QB Mix within the 60th Street tube, you could do 14 TPH or  service in Astoria, 7 TPH  Service on QB Local, 15 , 15  via 63rd, and 12  service via 63rd to allow for more flexible scheduling.

1 hour ago, Collin said:

The other option is what I mentioned before, which is to have all local service come from Astoria and go via Lower Manhattan and tunnel to 4th Avenue local to Bay Ridge.  Express service would be split between 2nd Ave and QB (via 63rd).  I much prefer this option since it would allow one service to operate completely on it's own.  As far as the terminal issues limiting frequency, I think the end terminals at Astoria Ditmars and Bay Ridge would be maxed out, and any trains that couldn't fit in them would need to short turn.  A set of switches could easily be added to allow trains to short turn at Astoria Blvd, and right now they could also short turn at Queensboro Plaza.  For trains not able to go to Bay Ridge, they could short turn at Whitehall or somewhere on West End (though that creates another merge).

If I recall correctly, I remember someone saying that adding a switch just before Astoria Blvd is not feasible, However I don’t recall the reason as to why. Also. I wouldn’t recommend short turning any trains at Queens Plaza given the high passenger volume headed towards Astoria and Ditmars. An idea for solving the Yard issue in the short term (and one I’m not completely fond of) is to rebuild the switches south of 36th Street/4th Avenue. If you do this with a maxed out SAS and Deinterlined DeKalb Junction, you can have  service go to Bay Ridge-95th (switching Local after 36th Street),  Service going to West End from Astoria, and  Service running up with the  to 96th while remaining the same in Brooklyn. 
 

If you’re confused by anything I said, I suggest that you read this post here: 

 

[bobtehpanda]

6 hours ago, Collin said:

I think de-interlining needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.  It doesn't make sense in every scenario.  Some lines don't have problematic merges, and others do.  In some cases, the cost of de-interlining outweighs the benefit by creating inconvenient transfers.  One area I don't think should be de-interlined is CPW.  It's designed to have local and express service coming from both Washington Heights and The Bronx, and heading to both 8th and 6th Avenue.  There also is no opportunity to create a service that operates alone it's entire route (like the  or ) since every service on it has to merge with another further down the line.  There are other cases like this where it doesn't make sense to de-interline.

Broadway on the other hand is a perfect opportunity to de-interline because it's possible to create a local service from Astoria all the way to Bay Ridge that never merges.  It also has inefficient merges in the current service pattern.

The issue is if you want 53rd to have 30TPH and 63rd to have 30TPH, one of the two track pairs for 8th Avenue has to go into 53rd, and we need to cleanup Canal as well since it caps WTC. Which is why CPW needs to be deinterlined. I don't think you could have both an 8th Av Exp and Lcl going into 53rd very easily, and you definitely cannot be running anything close to 30TPH with the messy merging situation at Canal St.

Edited March 28, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Collin said:

QB works pretty well as it is with the express to Archer, express to 179th, and and locals to Forest Hills/71st.  It will be even better with CBTC controlling the merge points.  Sending the  (or if they swap terminals) via 63rd could be an option), but that limits the amount of service that could be sent up Second Avenue.  Not sure if sending QB trains into two tunnels rather than 3 would be better.

On the contrary, I don't think it works very well at all. The is almost always delayed, the merges at 36th and 75th can cause issues as well. The important thing about evicting service, is that it allows you to dedicate 100% of 60th St to Astoria (either reconfigured, or built with an alternate extension path like LGA that could provide a second outlet to terminate trains) so the definitely needs to go.

I am of mixed opinion about the 53rd/63rd deinterlining with QBL. In my opinion, terminating local trains at Forest Hills is important because most eastern and SE Queens bus riders are also slogging it on the bus after, so slowing them down further is going to inconvenience many. And I don't really see why one couldn't run a local and an express each from both 53rd and 63rd; it'd certainly reduce transferring volumes at Roosevelt to do so. 

[Collin]

@LaGuardia Link N Tra what is reverse branching?

@bobtehpanda if the R is removed from QB, then what would replace it?  Obviously it would be a local service via 63rd, but what Manhattan line are you thinking it would go on?  I totally agree that QB local trains need to end at Forest Hills.

[LGA Link N Train]

14 minutes ago, Collin said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra what is reverse branching?

Basically when subway lines split apart from one trunk line to join up with other trunk lines. Take the  for example. It starts off with the  and  on QB as a local service. Queens Blvd has 4 tracks, thus it’s considered a trunk line. The  branches off at Queens Plaza and Merges with the  and  along 60th Street. The 60th Street/Astoria Line is a branch of the Broadway Line. 

 

 

[Caelestor]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It does. The Nassau St Line was a product of its time when it was built over 100 years ago, back when Lower Manhattan was the City’s largest job center, a status it would lose a few decades later. At least with the Chrystie St connection, riders from the Jamaica and Myrtle els can get to Midtown without piling onto the  in Brooklyn or the  in Manhattan. But you’re left with the Manhattan portion of the line south of Essex. Making that a shuttle seems like it would be taking a step towards abandoning it. Maybe the downtown shuttle train you described can instead be a  train between Jamaica Center and Broad that runs peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, while either the  or  starts/ends at Broadway Jct, and the other 6th Ave service starts/ends at Metropolitan. 

I think you're right on splitting the Nassau Line long (medium?)-term. And 2nd Ave should definitely have a four-track alignment in Phases 3 and 4, or be designed to easily be upgraded from two to four tracks, so two of those tracks can go to Broad.

If the Franklin Ave  can remain in service until today, so can the Nassau St shuttle (call it the  for clarity) after Williamsburg Bridge services are connected to the 6 Ave express tracks. Anyways, the future of the Nassau St line is to head uptown after Canal St as the SAS express, stopping at Houston St, 14 St, 42 St, 55 St, 72 St, 116 St, and running into the Bronx as the Third Ave line.

As for 50 St / 8 Ave, the solution is pretty clear. Local trains should be stopping at the upper level, and express trains stopping at the lower level. Then the 6 Ave express tracks can fully take over the CPW express tracks, and simplify the Manhattan services into

•  207 St - WTC local, 24/7
•  145 St lower level / Bedford Park Blvd (rush hours) - 6 Ave express, weekdays
•  Norwood - 6 Ave express, 24/7
•  53 St - 8 Ave express - Fulton express, 24/7
•  53 St - 8 Ave express - Fulton local, 19/7

As for Queens Blvd, the lines should be

•  53 St - QB express
•  63 St - QB express
•  53 St - QB local
•  63 St - QB local

which does keep reverse branching on QBL but at least the problematic 53 St / 6 Ave and 60 St / QBL merges disappear. If the  is cut off from Williamsburg Bridge, then it can be retired and the entire 63 St / 6 Ave / Culver line can be rebranded the  lines.

Then on Broadway, the  can take over the entire Astoria / Broadway / 4 Ave local tracks, with short-turn trains between Queensboro Plaza and Whitehall St, and the  can take over the entire SAS / Broadway express tracks. In a full-deinterlining scheme for the Manhattan bridge, the  would run via West End and the  would run via Brighton, but I'm not certain that's entirely necessary yet if the rest of B Division is fixed. If the 6 Ave express tracks are connected to the Williamsburg bridge and the Manhattan bridge north tracks run up 2 Ave, then the  would take over Brighton. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Caelestor

[Theli11]

23 minutes ago, Collin said:

if the R is removed from QB, then what would replace it?  Obviously it would be a local service via 63rd, but what Manhattan line are you thinking it would go on?  I totally agree that QB local trains need to end at Forest Hills.

Well if we were to truly deinterline it, we could just have the run local, and the  and  trains run via 63 and express. the isn't that long of a route, and can withstand local service, it'll still be practically alone with no shared tracks. However, we could just run the  on Queens Blvd and  on Astoria. But this limit's the 's ability to go beyond Forest Hills, so you'd have to place the or to Jamaica Center. But I would rather have just the on the local tracks. 

[Theli11]

1 minute ago, Caelestor said:

As for 50 St / 8 Ave, the solution is pretty clear. Local trains should be stopping at the upper level, and express trains stopping at the lower level. Then the 6 Ave express tracks can fully take over the CPW express tracks, and simplify the Manhattan services into

•  207 St - WTC local, 24/7
•  145 St lower level / Bedford Park Blvd (rush hours) - 6 Ave express, weekdays
•  Norwood - 6 Ave express, 24/7
•  53 St - 8 Ave express - Fulton express, 24/7
•  53 St - 8 Ave express - Fulton local, 19/7

As for Queens Blvd, the lines should be

•  53 St - QB express
•  63 St - QB express
•  53 St - QB local
•  63 St - QB local

which does keep reverse branching on QBL but at least the problematic 53 St / 6 Ave and 60 St / QBL merges disappear.

You really don't NEED upper and lower level services, and you'd still have issues of 36 St merging between the and the . Keep 8th Av Local and 6th Av Express, that way it's much more easier. 

 

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Collin said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra what is reverse branching?

@bobtehpanda if the R is removed from QB, then what would replace it?  Obviously it would be a local service via 63rd, but what Manhattan line are you thinking it would go on?  I totally agree that QB local trains need to end at Forest Hills.

Proposed service patterns:

 6th - 63rd - QB EXP - Jamaica 179 (15TPH)

6th - 63rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

 Howard Beach/Lefferts - Fulton EXP - 8th EXP - 53rd - QB EXP - Parsons/Archer (15TPH)

Euclid - Fulton LCL -   8th EXP - 53rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

207 - CPW LCL - 8 AV LCL - WTC (24TPH)

Edited March 28, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[Jova42R]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Proposed service patterns:

 6th - 63rd - QB EXP - Jamaica 179 (15TPH)

6th - 63rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

 Howard Beach/Lefferts - Fulton EXP - 8th EXP - 53rd - QB EXP - Parsons/Archer (15TPH)

Euclid - Fulton LCL -   8th EXP - 53rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

207 - CPW LCL - 8 AV LCL - WTC (24TPH)

what about CPW customers going to Brooklyn? Also, what is the 145-168 exp?

[Theli11]

13 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

 6th - 63rd - QB EXP - Jamaica 179 (15TPH)

6th - 63rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

 Howard Beach/Lefferts - Fulton EXP - 8th EXP - 53rd - QB EXP - Parsons/Archer (15TPH)

Euclid - Fulton LCL -   8th EXP - 53rd - QB LCL - Forest Hills (15TPH)

207 - CPW LCL - 8 AV LCL - WTC (24TPH

You could have just the on the Local QB tracks.
And on the express, 

doesn't have to be the 8th EXP, the can do that, and serve ENY service since people from Harlem/Uptown would like to go to Brooklyn without having to transfer at a station. QB already has the (M), and don't have that high demand to go to Brooklyn/ENY, they can either go to Jamaica for the  or transfer. The has high enough capacity to take over the 8th Av local tracks, and provide suffice service. the lack of merges also helps out. You can put the on the local track from 145-168 St, just have that single merge, vs the two merges at 145 St, and 59 St between the  , , and . Now we just have a merge between . On the QB Line, now you have a merge between.. nothing. are on it's own track, the is on it's own track. if someone at a local stop wants to go to 6th Av, they can either back pedal, and head to Jackson, or they can go to 7th Av and take the , if we create a transfer at Queens Plaza/Queensboro Plaza, it'd help create a connection to Broadway. 

[bobtehpanda]

9 hours ago, Jova42R said:

what about CPW customers going to Brooklyn? Also, what is the 145-168 exp?

Change trains at literally any express stop for Brooklyn.

6 hours ago, Theli11 said:

You could have just the on the Local QB tracks.
And on the express, 

doesn't have to be the 8th EXP, the can do that, and serve ENY service since people from Harlem/Uptown would like to go to Brooklyn without having to transfer at a station. QB already has the (M), and don't have that high demand to go to Brooklyn/ENY, they can either go to Jamaica for the  or transfer. The has high enough capacity to take over the 8th Av local tracks, and provide suffice service. the lack of merges also helps out. You can put the on the local track from 145-168 St, just have that single merge, vs the two merges at 145 St, and 59 St between the  , , and . Now we just have a merge between . On the QB Line, now you have a merge between.. nothing. are on it's own track, the is on it's own track. if someone at a local stop wants to go to 6th Av, they can either back pedal, and head to Jackson, or they can go to 7th Av and take the , if we create a transfer at Queens Plaza/Queensboro Plaza, it'd help create a connection to Broadway. 

QBL-53 needs a full 30TPH. Queens Blvd is full already and we need to shove more trains on there. And Canal can't turn nearly as efficiently as Forest Hills because of the lack of tail tracks. So Queens trains need to be on the 8th Av express tracks.

CPW is nowhere near full, and changing trains to head to Brooklyn is not the end of the world, particularly when the transfer is literally across the same platform at multiple stops (42, 34, 14, W 4, Canal). The 8th Av express is also not much of an express since the only stops you skip are 50, 23, and Spring south of CPW. The transferring situation to deinterline QB is much worse. People do not make backtrack transfers.

[Collin]

I believe the and run 15 tph each during peak hours, so the QB express tracks already run 30 tph without CBTC.  With CBTC, it's supposed to be increased to 33.  Since the  is the most crowded of the QB routes, I think it should be increased to 18 tph (12 to Archer and 6 to 179th) while the  stays at 15.  Could WTC reasonably turn 18 tph?

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The transferring situation to deinterline QB is much worse. People do not make backtrack transfers.

So what you’re saying is that a De-Interlined QB (even with Lengthened  trains and platforms along Williamsburg/Myrtle Line) is a Non-Starter? 

[Jova42R]

Here's my plan for de-interlined QBL:

4 lines: 

SERVICE PATTERN CHANGES

•  runs to 96/2 fulltime
•  switch terminals

LINES

• 
  • WTC - 8 AV LCL - 53 ST - QBL EXP - JAMAICA
  • keeps current service pattern
  • 12TPH
• 
  • CONEY ISLAND - CULVER LCL - 6 AV LCL - 63 ST - QBL EXP - HILLSIDE
  • keeps current service pattern
  • 12TPH
• 
  • HANOVER SQ - 2 AV LCL - 63 ST - QBL LCL - ROCKAWAY BEACH BRANCH - JFK
  • new route, JFK link, reactivated RBB line with stations at:
    • South Forest Hills (Yellowstone Blvd)
    • Union Tpke
    • Myrtle Av
    • Jamaica Av
    • Atlantic Av
    • Liberty Av
    • JFK-Howard Beach
  • 12TPH
• 
  • CONEY ISLAND - SEA BEACH LCL - 4 AV LCL - BWAY EXP - QBL LCL - JEWEL AV
  •  runs on a new extension under Jewel Av to Fresh Meadows (map is link)
  • 12TPH

WOODHAVEN BLVD BECOMES AN EXPRESS STATION AND INTERMODAL HUB WITH THE  AND Q11, Q22, Q38, Q52+, Q53+, Q59, Q60, Q72, Q88 BUSES. IT IS RENAMED WOODHAVEN BLVD - QUEENS CENTER MALL.

Thoughts @LaGuardia Link N Tra @Theli11 @Collin?

 

[Collin]

It's not really de-interlining.  Just reoptimizing the service pattern.  I like the changes proposed here http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2017/05/the-future-of-the-2nd-avenue-subway/ which are somewhat similar to yours.

There are some changes I'd make to that plan with regards to QB service.

Current service pattern, 18 tph.

Current service pattern, 15 tph.

Same 2001-2010, but extended to Church Avenue.  12 tph.

QB local via 63th Street to Broadway Express 10 tph.

Rockaway Park to RBB, QB local from 63rd Drive, via 63rd Street, 2nd Ave local, Brighton Express 8 tph (more trains could run in Manhattan, but short turn at 55th Street)..

This runs the local tracks at 30 tph and the express tracks at 33 tph.  53rd Street runs 30 tph, and 63rd Street runs 33 tph.  It also allows the  and  to be de-interlined from Astoria down the Broadway Local tracks, increasing service (with a possible LGA extension).  I looked at sending the via 60th Street, seeing that 33 tph all from different lines could be an issue.  However, when coming from Manhattan, all 3 services have places they could hold without blocking other routes.  I see there being fewer issues coming from Queens where all the trains would've already been operating on the same line, under CBTC signaling which would get the trains timed optimally.

 

[mrsman]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:38 PM, Collin said:

I think losing upper level service to 50th Street is a big deal.  That's closing most of a station and deactivating two tracks.  The line is designed to be run with two local services.  One from CPW and one from Queens.  Any de-interlining scheme for QB that would result in a local service going past Forest Hills is a non-starter in my opinion.  Every time a local service has gone past Forest Hills, it was very unpopular and quickly cut back.  QB works pretty well as it is with the express to Archer, express to 179th, and and locals to Forest Hills/71st.  It will be even better with CBTC controlling the merge points.  Sending the  (or if they swap terminals) via 63rd could be an option), but that limits the amount of service that could be sent up Second Avenue.  Not sure if sending QB trains into two tunnels rather than 3 would be better.

As far as what could be done now to de-interline Broadway.  I see there being two options.  One is to max out 2nd Avenue by sending the  there at all times alongside the .  Local service would be split between Astoria and QB (via 60th).  This would likely be a service cut for Astoria since it still has to share 60th Street with trains from QB.  It also would not be sustainable when Phase 3 opens and  service starts, since it will require cutting Broadway-2nd Ave service to make room for.  There wouldn't be an opportunity to create any service that never shares track with another.

The other option is what I mentioned before, which is to have all local service come from Astoria and go via Lower Manhattan and tunnel to 4th Avenue local to Bay Ridge.  Express service would be split between 2nd Ave and QB (via 63rd).  I much prefer this option since it would allow one service to operate completely on it's own.  As far as the terminal issues limiting frequency, I think the end terminals at Astoria Ditmars and Bay Ridge would be maxed out, and any trains that couldn't fit in them would need to short turn.  A set of switches could easily be added to allow trains to short turn at Astoria Blvd, and right now they could also short turn at Queensboro Plaza.  For trains not able to go to Bay Ridge, they could short turn at Whitehall or somewhere on West End (though that creates another merge).

 

Just a quick comment, I like the idea of shortturing at Qboro Plaza.  You still maintain as many trains at Astoria as that terminal can handle, but the short turning will allow higher capacity along the Broadway local.  Plus, it would mean a few trains starting empty at Qboro Plaza, leaving room for more people who are transferring from  or from any trains at Queens Plaza, assuming that a Q Pz-Qboro Pz transfer is created.

[Theli11]

1 hour ago, Collin said:

Same 2001-2010, but extended to Church Avenue.  12 tph.

 

Why not just keep the how it already is? I'm just going to assume you're placing the trains at 96/2 or taking it off 6th Avenue, which would take away from the Midtown access that the currently gives to Brooklyn Riders. But the doesn't really solve any problems, it's still the same merge at Queens Plaza minus the , but now it's 2 separate merges, at 36 St and Queens Plaza. If you want to really preserve Broadway Service, you could have the run local and the run express via 63 St. It'd be a more smooth route.

3 hours ago, Jova42R said:

CONEY ISLAND - SEA BEACH LCL - 4 AV LCL - BWAY EXP - QBL LCL - JEWEL AV

Is the N running on 63 St or 60 St? If it's on 63, same thing as above, if it's on 60th, then it still has that dreaded 34 St merge, which you could solve by placing it on the Broadway local. Which would also help with the 4th Av Local service, which I'm.. confused about. If you run it on the 4th Av Local, you take it away from the bridge, and you have added 12 TPH from DeKalb - Canal St, then for it to go express, you have to move it to the express tracks right after the merge. A mess in and of itself. The line isn't the line to provide additional local service on weekdays, especially when you're making it as long as it is. If you wanted extra local service, you could've either, added more trains to run down the line like it does during Rush Hours, or Eliminated the  (again) because where are you going to put it? Putting it on Astoria when it'll limit travel? 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Theli11
Added a point

[Theli11]

2 hours ago, Collin said:

It also allows the  and  to be de-interlined from Astoria down the Broadway Local tracks, increasing service (with a possible LGA extension).

At this point, you could just eliminate service. all it is, is a short turned train that'll get re-routed via Sea Beach twice a day.