Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Vulturious]

5 minutes ago, AbstractSector said:

>new Fulton St local service

That's a neat idea. Seemingly simple (no new track construction). But why hasn't Court St been used to such capacity?

• New local service between Court St (taking away Transit Museum) and Euclid Av
•  becomes Fulton St Express and is extended to Lefferts Blvd
•  full time to the Rockaways
• Almost double frequency to Queens
•  (optional) becomes Eighth Av Express to 59 St, then local to 168 St

 

The reason why Court St hasn't been used to such capacity is because everyone wants direct service into Manhattan. There is literally no incentive whatsoever in converting Court St back into a station. I say back into a station because it was originally supposed to be used as what you proposed, but it was only kept as a shuttle. No one is going to take it unless they are transferring over to a train running into Manhattan the first chance they get. Ridership would dip down hard and pretty much a lot of people would just be losing in this scenario, riders and the MTA alike.

[Wallyhorse]

7 hours ago, Vulturious said:

The reason why Court St hasn't been used to such capacity is because everyone wants direct service into Manhattan. There is literally no incentive whatsoever in converting Court St back into a station. I say back into a station because it was originally supposed to be used as what you proposed, but it was only kept as a shuttle. No one is going to take it unless they are transferring over to a train running into Manhattan the first chance they get. Ridership would dip down hard and pretty much a lot of people would just be losing in this scenario, riders and the MTA alike.

This is why I would look at building what is supposed to be Phase 4 of the SAS while also using Court and a new tunnel to get to Manhattan stopping at least at Seaport (with MetroCard transfers from there to all the lines at Fulton Street) and possibly Chatam Square at first and later Houston where it would meet up with Phase 3 once that is completed.   This way, the can take over as the Fulton local and getting to at least lower Manhattan.

Even if you did bring Court back into the system and ran the as the Fulton Local between Court and Euclid (likely extended late nights to Lefferts), you would have the and both running express so you would actually have a sharp increase in overall service, and those transferring first chance to the or , with probably 22-25 TPH combined on the Futon Express plus double the service along the Fulton Local late nights with the and  both running local, 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:24 PM, Vulturious said:

Actually now that you mention a Dekalb-Lafayette Av connection, maybe it is in a way possible for this to happen. I think there is enough room for a connection to be built that would lead to the Montague St-Brighton connection tracks. I don't see the divergence between the  and the  being that big of an issue as we already see this happening along QBL with the 63 St connection built. Then again, it would be a difficult because of the Crosstown line in the way. The only other option would be to build an SAS connection through the old Court St station even with how expensive the project will be.

The SAS connection is probably the best option. The problem is that it will take billions of dollars to construct and decades to get built, given how much more new subway in Manhattan would have to be built first. I already doubt the MTA's commitment to building SAS Phases 3 and 4, let alone a new East River tunnel between Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn Heights.

It's true that clearing the  might be a bit of a challenge if connecting between DeKalb and Lafayette. But definitely not as challenging as a Montague-Schermerhorn connection would be. I honestly think the QBL-63rd connection was done in a way that should not be repeated throughout the system. So if a connection between DeKalb and Lafayette is ever considered, then the possibility of converting Lafayette Ave into an express station should also be looked at. We already see what a challenge it is whenever anyone suggests untangling QBL because the 63rd St connection diverges at a local station (36th St). In both Lafayette's and 36th's cases, neither station was designed to be readily converted to an express station, like Woodhaven Blvd. But I noticed something interesting between Lafayette and Clinton-Washington - the tunnel widens and there is a middle track. I wonder how difficult it would be to repurpose that stretch of the tunnel into a new express station to facilitate cross-platform transfers between  express trains and  local trains. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

8 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Vulturious]

8 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The SAS connection is probably the best option. The problem is that it will take billions of dollars to construct and decades to get built, given how much more subway would have to be built first. I already doubt the MTA are committed to building SAS Phases 3 and 4, let alone a new East River tunnel between Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn Heights.

It's true that clearing the  might be a bit of a challenge if connecting between DeKalb and Lafayette. But definitely not as challenging as a Montague-Schermerhorn connection would be. I honestly think the QBL-63rd connection was done in a way that should not be repeated throughout the system. So if a connection between DeKalb and Lafayette is ever considered, then the possibility of converting Lafayette Ave into an express station should also be looked at. We already see what a challenge it is whenever anyone suggests untangling QBL because the 63rd St connection diverges at a local station (36th St). In both Lafayette's and 36th's cases, neither station was designed to be readily converted to an express station, like Woodhaven Blvd. But I noticed something interesting between Lafayette and Clinton-Washington - the tunnel widens and there is a middle track. I wonder how difficult it would be to repurpose that stretch of the tunnel into a new express station to facilitate cross-platform transfers between  express trains and  local trains. 

That's not a bad idea, there definitely shouldn't be a repeat of QBL-63 St connection in this scenario. Although, I don't know how well a conversion of Lafayette Av will be. Maybe it is better to go for a new connection from Montague St to old Court St. Especially with how the  runs currently now and even before, I think we can get away with building a new connection. However, that could still hinder  service in the process so I don't know.

[jammerbot]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The SAS connection is probably the best option. The problem is that it will take billions of dollars to construct and decades to get built, given how much more new subway in Manhattan would have to be built first. I already doubt the MTA's commitment to building SAS Phases 3 and 4, let alone a new East River tunnel between Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn Heights.

It's true that clearing the  might be a bit of a challenge if connecting between DeKalb and Lafayette. But definitely not as challenging as a Montague-Schermerhorn connection would be. I honestly think the QBL-63rd connection was done in a way that should not be repeated throughout the system. So if a connection between DeKalb and Lafayette is ever considered, then the possibility of converting Lafayette Ave into an express station should also be looked at. We already see what a challenge it is whenever anyone suggests untangling QBL because the 63rd St connection diverges at a local station (36th St). In both Lafayette's and 36th's cases, neither station was designed to be readily converted to an express station, like Woodhaven Blvd. But I noticed something interesting between Lafayette and Clinton-Washington - the tunnel widens and there is a middle track. I wonder how difficult it would be to repurpose that stretch of the tunnel into a new express station to facilitate cross-platform transfers between  express trains and  local trains. 

 

3 hours ago, Vulturious said:

That's not a bad idea, there definitely shouldn't be a repeat of QBL-63 St connection in this scenario. Although, I don't know how well a conversion of Lafayette Av will be. Maybe it is better to go for a new connection from Montague St to old Court St. Especially with how the  runs currently now and even before, I think we can get away with building a new connection. However, that could still hinder  service in the process so I don't know.

Sorry, out of the loop, what is the issue with how the QBL-63 St connection was made? Thanks!

[Vulturious]

39 minutes ago, jammerbot said:

 

Sorry, out of the loop, what is the issue with how the QBL-63 St connection was made? Thanks!

This is how QBL looks with the 63 St connection. The issue with this is the 's first stop along QBL from 21 St-Queensbridge is Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av, a whole 6 stations apart with no transfers to other lines east of it. If 36 St was converted to be an express station, Jackson Heights wouldn't be such a transfer issue as everyone would be able to transfer at 36 St instead.

By the way, I decided to make an edit of how a Dekalb-Lafayette Av connection would look like without Lafayette Av being converted.

Honestly, if the station was moved down a bit, maybe it would be easier to allow for such connection to happen since the Crosstown line is already making it cut a little close.

[jammerbot]

5 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

This is how QBL looks with the 63 St connection. The issue with this is the 's first stop along QBL from 21 St-Queensbridge is Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av, a whole 6 stations apart with no transfers to other lines east of it. If 36 St was converted to be an express station, Jackson Heights wouldn't be such a transfer issue as everyone would be able to transfer at 36 St instead.

By the way, I decided to make an edit of how a Dekalb-Lafayette Av connection would look like without Lafayette Av being converted.

Honestly, if the station was moved down a bit, maybe it would be easier to allow for such connection to happen since the Crosstown line is already making it cut a little close.

Makes sense! 36 St should definitely be an express station for that reason. Also, I never heard of this DeKalb Fulton connection proposal. How long has this idea been circulating?

[Vulturious]

14 minutes ago, jammerbot said:

Makes sense! 36 St should definitely be an express station for that reason. Also, I never heard of this DeKalb Fulton connection proposal. How long has this idea been circulating?

No idea since I also have recently heard about it. The only connection I know of was from Montague St tunnel to the old Court St station (currently the New York Transit Museum) which would allow for Fulton Local service to be served by Broadway trains instead of the .

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, Vulturious said:

This is how QBL looks with the 63 St connection. The issue with this is the 's first stop along QBL from 21 St-Queensbridge is Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av, a whole 6 stations apart with no transfers to other lines east of it. If 36 St was converted to be an express station, Jackson Heights wouldn't be such a transfer issue as everyone would be able to transfer at 36 St instead.

By the way, I decided to make an edit of how a Dekalb-Lafayette Av connection would look like without Lafayette Av being converted.

Honestly, if the station was moved down a bit, maybe it would be easier to allow for such connection to happen since the Crosstown line is already making it cut a little close.

That space just past existing Lafayette Avenue stop looks like it would be perfect. And for a station that express and local trains can stop at. Looks great; exactly what I would have drawn.

4 hours ago, jammerbot said:

Makes sense! 36 St should definitely be an express station for that reason. Also, I never heard of this DeKalb Fulton connection proposal. How long has this idea been circulating?

Not long. The only place I’ve seen this idea suggested is here. I think it was in 2018.

Edited March 22, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

13 hours ago, Vulturious said:

This is how QBL looks with the 63 St connection. The issue with this is the 's first stop along QBL from 21 St-Queensbridge is Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av, a whole 6 stations apart with no transfers to other lines east of it. If 36 St was converted to be an express station, Jackson Heights wouldn't be such a transfer issue as everyone would be able to transfer at 36 St instead.

By the way, I decided to make an edit of how a Dekalb-Lafayette Av connection would look like without Lafayette Av being converted.

Honestly, if the station was moved down a bit, maybe it would be easier to allow for such connection to happen since the Crosstown line is already making it cut a little close.

1. How would you be able to convert 36th into an express station (other than putting an island platform in the middle and underpasses between what would be the three platforms)?

2. If you could have the Montague Line connect to the Fulton line, it opens up a ton of new options, though you'd likely have to make the 24/7 to pull this off where it goes to Euclid at all times and extended to Lefferts late nights.  

I would also as part of this build what would be a very short connection on Church Street where the 8th Avenue local tracks that currently end at Chambers can join the tracks coming from the Broadway line that would allow for example the to be extended to Bay Ridge and allow for re-routes from 4th Avenue via the 8th Avenue connection to 6th Avenue at West 4th and 53rd or 63rd to QBL when necessary as well as with both this and the Montague connection to Fulton trains on Fulton being able when needed to run via Montague to Manhattan and re-joining the 8th Avenue line at Chambers. 

I'd also look at both directions from CPW to add another short stretch to the 63rd Street line that would allow at least the express trains on CPW when needed as well in particular when needed the being able to use 63rd after stopping at Columbus Circle in a re-route to get to Queens Boulevard.  

[ActiveCity]

Build the Trinity Place connection to the Montague St tunnel.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

1. How would you be able to convert 36th into an express station (other than putting an island platform in the middle and underpasses between what would be the three platforms)?

2. If you could have the Montague Line connect to the Fulton line, it opens up a ton of new options, though you'd likely have to make the 24/7 to pull this off where it goes to Euclid at all times and extended to Lefferts late nights.  

I would also as part of this build what would be a very short connection on Church Street where the 8th Avenue local tracks that currently end at Chambers can join the tracks coming from the Broadway line that would allow for example the to be extended to Bay Ridge and allow for re-routes from 4th Avenue via the 8th Avenue connection to 6th Avenue at West 4th and 53rd or 63rd to QBL when necessary as well as with both this and the Montague connection to Fulton trains on Fulton being able when needed to run via Montague to Manhattan and re-joining the 8th Avenue line at Chambers. 

I'd also look at both directions from CPW to add another short stretch to the 63rd Street line that would allow at least the express trains on CPW when needed as well in particular when needed the being able to use 63rd after stopping at Columbus Circle in a re-route to get to Queens Boulevard.  

As a matter of fact, I did make an edit for a 63 St-8 Av/CPW connection that also has a Broadway-CPW connection. Although in this version, it's connected to the local tracks rather than the express tracks.

Here is also a Lower Broadway-WTC connection with City Hall lower level being utilized.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Vulturious

[BreeddekalbL]

Since you guys are talking about making a qb station into express, are you forgetting that woodhaven has an existing provision to where it can be converted into an express station? id say its time for them to use it.

[mrsman]

23 hours ago, Vulturious said:

That's not a bad idea, there definitely shouldn't be a repeat of QBL-63 St connection in this scenario. Although, I don't know how well a conversion of Lafayette Av will be. Maybe it is better to go for a new connection from Montague St to old Court St. Especially with how the  runs currently now and even before, I think we can get away with building a new connection. However, that could still hinder  service in the process so I don't know.

If the  train were to somehow become the Fulton local train, I could see a qualitative difference between the situation there and the situation on the QBL.

With QBL, if 36 St were not an express stop, and you try to fully deinterline, you could have a situation where it would be very difficult to get to a lot of destinations, since that is a great divergence point.  If the  QBL locals all went to 63rd-6th and all the QBL expresses went to 53rd-8th,  every passenger who boards west of Roosevelt will be shut off from Queens Plaza, 23rd (Queens), 53rd-Lex, and 53rd-5th.  Depending on the ultimate configuration, QBL local passengers would have to travel all the way to W4 to transfer to  or go all the way to 47-50 transfer to  to 7thAve to   in order to backtrack to the missed western Queens stations.

The situation in Brooklyn is not nearly as dire.  If  were the local and  made a connection from DeKalb station to Laffayette station, the passengers on the Fulton local stations west of Nostrand are not as cut off from  service.  Passengers boarding  at Franklin or Clinton-Washington could take  and transfer to  at Jay St.  Passengers would only need to backtrack to reach one station (Hoyt-Schermerhorn).  Passengers boarding at Laffayette could do the same or walk half a block to the  station at Fulton and cross-transfer to  at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.

So while it is certainly better if a major divergence point were also an express station, a hypothetical  via DeKalb-Laffayette connection, would not cut off passengers from their destinations, even if Laffayette remained a local stop.  Jay Street provides another reasonable transfer point, albeit not cross-platform.

[Theli11]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:01 PM, mrsman said:

So while it is certainly better if a major divergence point were also an express station, a hypothetical  via DeKalb-Laffayette connection, would not cut off passengers from their destinations, even if Laffayette remained a local stop.  Jay Street provides another reasonable transfer point, albeit not cross-platform.

Would also be better if the MTA added a true Lafayette-Fulton St transfer, this way passengers needing local stops on Fulton, along with people on Local Stops who want to take the can just get off and transfer between Fulton Local and Crosstown routes. You'd also provide two opportunities to transfer to a train if they need Hoyt-Schmerhorn St; The  at Fulton St, and the at Nostrand Av

[jammerbot]

On 3/22/2022 at 1:51 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

Since you guys are talking about making a qb station into express, are you forgetting that woodhaven has an existing provision to where it can be converted into an express station? id say its time for them to use it.

Yes, this is a good idea, especially considering how much use the Q52 and Q53 get. However, 36 has so much focus in this forum right now, because the conversation with QB is focused on deinterlining.

[subwaykid256]

11 hours ago, jammerbot said:

Yes, this is a good idea, especially considering how much use the Q52 and Q53 get. However, 36 has so much focus in this forum right now, because the conversation with QB is focused on deinterlining.

yes why not make both 36th and Woodhaven into express stops. Especially if we can get the QueensLink going and send the to the Rockaways 

[subwaykid256]

Some deinterlining ideas I propose

 via 53 St

via 63 st

 to Brighton

West End

 new Queenslink line and cut back to City Hall/Whitehall St

 Bay Ridge

 as is to Flatbush Av

 to Utica Av line

 to New Lots Av

 to Crown Hts - Utica Av or to Extension to Bway Junction via Eastern Pkwy

[ActiveCity]

City Hall (lower level) to Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St.  

Broadway/Queens Blvd/Rockaways.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:17 PM, Theli11 said:

Would also be better if the MTA added a true Lafayette-Fulton St transfer, this way passengers needing local stops on Fulton, along with people on Local Stops who want to take the can just get off and transfer between Fulton Local and Crosstown routes. You'd also provide two opportunities to transfer to a train if they need Hoyt-Schmerhorn St; The  at Fulton St, and the at Nostrand Av

Agreed; maybe with a direct, free transfer between the  and , keeping Lafayette as a local stop might not be that big of a loss. 

[ActiveCity]

I know how to "fix" the BMT Franklin Avenue line from Prospect Park to Fulton St. In order for that to happen, the MTA must demolish the Park Place station since it's built on top of the former southbound track. As an alternative, walk to the nearby Botanic Garden station. To make up for this loss, the MTA will extend the platforms at the Botanic Garden station to accommodate 10 car-60 foot trains. Both side platforms will be extended north. In addition, the side platform at the Fulton St station will be converted to an island platform. This island platform will be extended south to accommodate 10 car-60 foot trains with a new southbound track. Lastly, there will be a crossover track south of the extended Fulton St station. Thoughts?

[zacster]

You can't extend the platforms north, the brick tunnel is there.  The Park Place platform is over the track but the station house isn't and there is plenty of room to move it back.  I use both stations from time to time.  But why are we "fixing" the shuttle anyway?  10 car 60' trains?  Why?  2 car 75' trains are enough unless the B/Q is stopped, and then only one b/q train will actually unload at PP, the rest will hold in place. 

I do remember one time in 1965 when there was a water main break.  They had the QT running to Franklin and the 8 car trains could still platform.  That makes 1 time in almost 60 years where they did that. 

[ActiveCity]

16 minutes ago, zacster said:

You can't extend the platforms north, the brick tunnel is there.  The Park Place platform is over the track but the station house isn't and there is plenty of room to move it back.  I use both stations from time to time.  But why are we "fixing" the shuttle anyway?  10 car 60' trains?  Why?  2 car 75' trains are enough unless the B/Q is stopped, and then only one b/q train will actually unload at PP, the rest will hold in place. 

I do remember one time in 1965 when there was a water main break.  They had the QT running to Franklin and the 8 car trains could still platform.  That makes 1 time in almost 60 years where they did that. 

I forgot about that small tunnel at Botanic Garden. The reason I proposed all this is for de-interlining purposes. The B would be the express, and the shuttle or any other letter would be the local.

[zacster]

Nobody wants a local to Franklin.  It is like when they did the F express and the G local, nobody wanted the G.  The only way that would work is if the B ran double the number of trains but that would mean more than half of the riders would need to transfer.

When the Manhattan Bridge was half closed aside from the merger at PP it was deinterlined.  It didn't save anybody anything.