Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Jacob]

On 3/24/2022 at 7:11 PM, subwaykid256 said:

Some deinterlining ideas I propose

 via 53 St

via 63 st

 to Brighton

West End

 new Queenslink line and cut back to City Hall/Whitehall St

 Bay Ridge

 as is to Flatbush Av

 to Utica Av line

 to New Lots Av

 to Crown Hts - Utica Av or to Extension to Bway Junction via Eastern Pkwy

Nah, I can de-interline South Brooklyn routes. I don't think the post you did is mostly accurate. It can be better if both  and  trains run via Brighton making  trains Brighton express, This will remove the interlining from B/Q trains. As well during that proposal. We can make  and  trains bypass DeKalb Avenue whist  and  goes via the bridge and run towards DeKalb Avenue. Then, This can cause higher frequency towards those 4 lines. ,  and  trains will rule via 4th Avenue,  and  trains will be running 4th Avenue Express, No changes to the  line since this will be running via Bay Ridge. With Rush Hour Select  trains, This can be going the same route as the or to 86th street as usual. (Probably.)

 

 trains will be running along Sea Beach while the  continue its way towards West End.

 

Now for the Eastern Parkway Line on Brooklyn

It's easy to De-Interline

 

 and  trains to Flatbush Avenue Hence, They run local,

 To New Lots Avenue and  trains terminating at Crown Heights. Making Probably either  trains run Local or  trains, Eh Idk. Either way wouldn't do much.

This can relive congestion towards  and  trains, And making two local lines going to Flatbush causes more reliability in service.

 

 via 53rd like old times is better than 63rd I agree on that

I would make  and  trains run Via 63rd so this can relieve interlining from 36th Street. Especially. And  and  trains running along 53rd St.

(Could cause more interlining on Lexington Av - 63rd /shrug)

 trains shouldn't be cut on Whitehall, It should serve Brooklyn at is it.

 

LGA Link Extension along Astoria is necessary in my own proposal as well so it can relieve crowds on both Q70, and M60 Select Bus Services. And probably bringing back  astoria express since it has a purpose along the extension.

 

yes.

[Vulturious]

3 hours ago, Jacob said:

 via 53rd like old times is better than 63rd I agree on that

I would make  and  trains run Via 63rd so this can relieve interlining from 36th Street. Especially. And  and  trains running along 53rd St.

(Could cause more interlining on Lexington Av - 63rd /shrug)

 trains shouldn't be cut on Whitehall, It should serve Brooklyn at is it.

 

LGA Link Extension along Astoria is necessary in my own proposal as well so it can relieve crowds on both Q70, and M60 Select Bus Services. And probably bringing back  astoria express since it has a purpose along the extension.

 

yes.

The thing I'm going to have to disagree with you, actually lemme rephrase that, tell you to forget about this idea on having the  along 63 St. Not only is there interlining involved at Lexington Av-63 St which wouldn't be that bad, but there's more interlining involved on Broadway. Currently right now, the  has to crossover between 34 St-Herald Square and Times Square-42 St from express to local and vice versa. Having the  along 63 St would just make this whole thing even worse because the  has to switch over from Local to Express causing more delays than needed. It would work better if it was the  running along 63 St to run Forest Hills swapping out the , but even that in of itself has a huge issue.

Currently, QBL local stations west of Jackson Heights has six local stops before the next express stop either being 21 St-Queensbridge or Queens Plaza. A lot of people are going to be completely cut off from Queens Plaza west of Jackson Heights. That would literally be adding in more crowding at that station, something that also isn't needed at all. If 36 St was converted to an express station, I don't think this idea would be that big of an issue, but it 100% definitely is. 

The only thing you can implement is swapping the  and , it's going to be wasted effort moving the  or even the for that matter to 63 St.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

8 hours ago, Jacob said:

Nah, I can de-interline South Brooklyn routes. I don't think the post you did is mostly accurate. It can be better if both  and  trains run via Brighton making  trains Brighton express, This will remove the interlining from B/Q trains. As well during that proposal. We can make  and  trains bypass DeKalb Avenue whist  and  goes via the bridge and run towards DeKalb Avenue. Then, This can cause higher frequency towards those 4 lines. ,  and  trains will rule via 4th Avenue,  and  trains will be running 4th Avenue Express, No changes to the  line since this will be running via Bay Ridge. With Rush Hour Select  trains, This can be going the same route as the or to 86th street as usual. (Probably.)

 

 trains will be running along Sea Beach while the  continue its way towards West End.

 

Now for the Eastern Parkway Line on Brooklyn

It's easy to De-Interline

 

 and  trains to Flatbush Avenue Hence, They run local,

 To New Lots Avenue and  trains terminating at Crown Heights. Making Probably either  trains run Local or  trains, Eh Idk. Either way wouldn't do much.

This can relive congestion towards  and  trains, And making two local lines going to Flatbush causes more reliability in service.

 

 via 53rd like old times is better than 63rd I agree on that

I would make  and  trains run Via 63rd so this can relieve interlining from 36th Street. Especially. And  and  trains running along 53rd St.

(Could cause more interlining on Lexington Av - 63rd /shrug)

 trains shouldn't be cut on Whitehall, It should serve Brooklyn at is it.

 

LGA Link Extension along Astoria is necessary in my own proposal as well so it can relieve crowds on both Q70, and M60 Select Bus Services. And probably bringing back  astoria express since it has a purpose along the extension.

 

yes.

But if you run the  via 63rd, then it would have to enter 57th and 7th on the express tracks, so that would be one hell of a merge point if the  stays local in Manhattan. I’d either leave the  as is, or remove it from the QB line and replace it with a ( V ) via 34th St (or another crosstown street in Midtown Manhattan) like @Vulturious outlined a few posts up thread.

Edited April 5, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[subwaykid256]

Seems like the only de-interlining we can agree on is swapping the for 53 st and to 63 st. but unfortunately the MTA wont do it because it means having to make the run 24/7. Past Myrtle/Delancey-Essex. I mean isnt there anyway we can cut back the on weekends to Whitehall/34 st so the can run to Queens during weekends.

but then again the does have the better transfer points which i understand why its given preference.

Same with De-interlining plans with the . I think the  would make a good alternative for either Sea Beach or Bay Ridge if were putting both the  at Brighton since they prefer Bway lines over 6 av. But the MTA doesn't seem willing to let the  or run on weekends.

 

 

[Vulturious]

45 minutes ago, subwaykid256 said:

Seems like the only de-interlining we can agree on is swapping the for 53 st and to 63 st. but unfortunately the MTA wont do it because it means having to make the run 24/7. Past Myrtle/Delancey-Essex. I mean isnt there anyway we can cut back the on weekends to Whitehall/34 st so the can run to Queens during weekends.

but then again the does have the better transfer points which i understand why its given preference.

Same with De-interlining plans with the . I think the  would make a good alternative for either Sea Beach or Bay Ridge if were putting both the  at Brighton since they prefer Bway lines over 6 av. But the MTA doesn't seem willing to let the  or run on weekends.

 

 

You don't have to run the  24/7 outside the Eastern Division, the  could just keep the same service during weekends and late nights and have the  cover for it other times like it did for the  in Manhattan when it was only a shuttle along West End. 

[Wallyhorse]

33 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

You don't have to run the  24/7 outside the Eastern Division, the  could just keep the same service during weekends and late nights and have the  cover for it other times like it did for the  in Manhattan when it was only a shuttle along West End. 

Right.  As I have said before in my ideas of moving the  to Nassau and making the a full-time line (moving it to QBL to replace the in Queens and Broadway full-time, part of that would be nights and weekends having such an  run to Metropolitan Avenue in place of the  as it would absorb both the weekend and late night shuttles (during the week, with the abandoned northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery reopened so the  can run to the Willy B on those tracks so during the week, this version of the  terminates at Canal Street, usually on what is currently the northbound track but would become in this setup the "southbound express" track). That would suffice, especially in this, the  becomes a 24/7 Broadway local from Whitehall to 71st-Continental (with in rush hours, some trains ending and beginning at 9th Avenue on the  in Brooklyn). 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, subwaykid256 said:

Seems like the only de-interlining we can agree on is swapping the for 53 st and to 63 st. but unfortunately the MTA wont do it because it means having to make the run 24/7. Past Myrtle/Delancey-Essex. I mean isnt there anyway we can cut back the on weekends to Whitehall/34 st so the can run to Queens during weekends.

but then again the does have the better transfer points which i understand why its given preference.

Same with De-interlining plans with the . I think the  would make a good alternative for either Sea Beach or Bay Ridge if were putting both the  at Brighton since they prefer Bway lines over 6 av. But the MTA doesn't seem willing to let the  or run on weekends.

 

 

“This is the way we’ve always done it” is and has long been the curse of the MTA. The  could certainly cover for the  on weekends/overnight if it’s rerouted to 63rd St, but whether the MTA would be willing to do that now is anyone’s guess, given their unwillingness to change. Same with cutting the  at Whitehall and running the  to Brooklyn in its place.

On 4/4/2022 at 10:52 AM, nightrider said:

I think that instead of converting Fordham and BPB-Lehman College into express stops, the TA can just add a switches on from the downtown track to the express track north of the station, as they don't exist. The current layout requires the train to leave the station before switching tracks, which makes it a logistics nightmare for signal operators. Then have the rush-hour locals terminate at Burnside Av, and continue to Woodlawn. Make it similar to the /  on the Pelham Line. It would alleviate the capacity problems that exist at Woodlawn. The biggest problem I find with the was how crowded it got during rush hour for Bronx Riders when it reached 161st St. The only downside are for riders that only ride along Jerome and have to switch between trains on Burnside.  So the would be Woodlawn, Mosholu, BPB, Kingsbridge, Fordham, 183 St, Burnside, 149 St, 125th. The would be Burnside, 176 St, Mt Eden, 170 St, 167 St, 161 St, 149 St, 138 St, 125 St.

I agree that converting Fordham to an express stop would be a nightmare considering how close the buildings are to the elevated structure in the area.

But if you do a zoned express with locals turning at Burnside, then every station on the  line other than Burnside and 149th will see a major cut in service resulting in more crowded trains. And most of the stations north of Burnside are major transfer points between the  and buses from all over The Bronx and Westchester. The  /  setup isn’t bad because the  is local in Manhattan and doesn’t interline with any other trains, so there can be respectable frequencies at the Bronx local stations and the stations north of Parkchester. A  /  setup would be much less fortunate due to having to share with the .

[subwaykid256]

Some de-interlining ideas I'm trying with but i need to know if I have the late night  shuttle and The both terminating at Whitehall St at the same time or is the middle track the only option for terminating trains.

 

now a 24/7 line Runs via Sea Beach terminates at 36 St/Atlantic Av-Barclays Center weekends/late nights

 As is

 as discussed running along 53 St

as discussed running along 63 st and runs 24/7

Brighton Express runs weekdays only

As is

 Runs late night shuttle pattern in weekends

as is but 24/7 service

as is but if necessary shorter frequencies to make room for on weekends

As is and higher frequencies

 Harlem-148 St - Flatbush Av Brooklyn College. Weekend service cut back to South Ferry Station and shorter frequencies if needed

 Extended to New Lots Av at all times

 Rerouted to Crown Hts Utica Av weekdays. (May run on Future Utica Av line) Weekend/Late night service the same

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, subwaykid256 said:

Some de-interlining ideas I'm trying with but i need to know if I have the late night  shuttle and The both terminating at Whitehall St at the same time or is the middle track the only option for terminating trains.

 

now a 24/7 line Runs via Sea Beach terminates at 36 St/Atlantic Av-Barclays Center weekends/late nights

 As is

 as discussed running along 53 St

as discussed running along 63 st and runs 24/7

Brighton Express runs weekdays only

As is

 Runs late night shuttle pattern in weekends

as is but 24/7 service

as is but if necessary shorter frequencies to make room for on weekends

As is and higher frequencies

 Harlem-148 St - Flatbush Av Brooklyn College. Weekend service cut back to South Ferry Station and shorter frequencies if needed

 Extended to New Lots Av at all times

 Rerouted to Crown Hts Utica Av weekdays. (May run on Future Utica Av line) Weekend/Late night service the same

Not going to focus on the IRT portion of things because they're honestly better off not being touched in my opinion. Anyway, there are other issues with this whole thing that needs to be addressed:

•  via Sea Beach, while I don't mind that one bit, having the  terminate at Atlantic wouldn't really be that bad of a thing, although riders along Sea Beach are definitely going to want to keep their direct access to Manhattan, same thing with West End.
• Speaking of West End,  trains are going to have to run local along 4 Av to compensate for the  pretty much short turning. 
• The  cannot run along 63 St while also being 24/7. It's better to have the  be replaced by the  during other times because the  is in simple terms a bonus line. The only other way to run the  outside of the Eastern Division 24/7 via 63 St is if all stations the  serves had increased in length.
• The  and  are going to have issues trying to terminate at Whitehall St if that's the case. If your leaving the  running to Whitehall 24/7 while also having the  run late night service every other time, no train is going to be able to get in. Whitehall St is set up to basically short turn trains on both sides of the stations on the middle track, the outer tracks cannot be accessed at all and can only be used for through service. It's also in a way pretty dumb to leave the both the  and  terminating at the same station forcing riders to transfer over to another line either going into Brooklyn or continuing up Lower Broadway. It's also better to keep the  as the service along QBL with the two other different Manhattan trunk line locals. 

[Vulturious]

So this was an idea I thought up of with others on this thread a while back discussing how service could run de-interlined, more specifically a de-interlined B division service (this idea takes inspiration from Vanshnook as well).

B Division De-interlining plan:

•  Inwood-207 St to Rockaways/Lefferts Blvd [CPW/8 Av Exp, via Cranberry St, Fulton St Exp, via JFK Airport]
•  Norwood-205 St to Euclid Av [Concourse Peak Exp, CPW/8 Av Exp, via Cranberry St, Fulton St Local]
•  Jamaica Center to Coney Island [QBL Exp, via 53 St, 8 Av local, via Rutgers St, Culver Local]
• (Blue) 168 St to Metropolitan Av [CPW/8 Av Local, via Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn-Broadway Local,  Myrtle Av Local]
•  Forest Hills-71 Av to Bay Ridge-95 St [QBL Local, via 63 St, 6 Av Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, 4 Av Exp/Local]
•  145 St/Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island [Concourse Peak Local, CPW Local, 6 Av Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, 4 Av Exp, Sea Beach Local]
•  Jamaica-179 St to Chambers St-WTC [QBL Exp, via 53 St, 6 Av Local]
•  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island [Astoria Peak Exp, via 60 St, Broadway Local, via Montague St, 4 Av Local, West End Peak Exp]
•  96 St-2 Av to Coney Island [2 Av Local, Broadway Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Local]
•  Forest Hills-71 Av to City Hall/Bay Parkway [QBL Local, via 60 St, Broadway Local, via Montague St, 4 Av Local, West End Local]
• () 96 St-2 Av to Brighton Beach [2 Av Local, Broadway Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Exp]

Here are some of how the changes would look like:

I'm not sure how all these services would operate outside of rush hour and weekday. The only services I know for sure of how they will run is the following:

•  Late nights, replaces  trains in Brooklyn, runs express between Canal St and 145 St.
•  stays the same, replaced by  trains with  trains extended to Norwood-205 St.
•  Late nights, runs via 63 St and 6 Av (basically normal  service, but to Jamaica Center).
•  Late Nights, runs local in Brooklyn and terminates at Whitehall St (basically runs Late night  service).
•  Rush hours to Bedford Park Blvd, other times to 145 St. Late nights, replaces  trains to Norwood-205 St.
•  Late nights, runs local in Queens and via 53 St (basically normal  service but to Jamaica-179 St).
•  Late nights, runs local in Manhattan.
•  Late nights, no service.
•  Late nights and weekends, no service.

The  is complicated and I'm not really too sure how to run it outside of weekday service. The  and  swapping is odd for sure, but there isn't any other way running service that isn't needed during late nights. I would've kept the  running local via 63 St, but that would be losing direct service to Queens Plaza and with the  running express, I had to swap them. The  is also complicated for weekend service, the only way I could think of running it would be to run to truncate it to 21 St-Queensbridge during weekends. At least that wouldn't complicate things further. The  replacing  trains during late nights is also odd, but it would basically run something like how the  would run during late nights which replaces  trains during those times so it's not that far of a stretch.

[mrsman]

6 hours ago, Vulturious said:

So this was an idea I thought up of with others on this thread a while back discussing how service could run de-interlined, more specifically a de-interlined B division service (this idea takes inspiration from Vanshnook as well).

B Division De-interlining plan:

•  Inwood-207 St to Rockaways/Lefferts Blvd [CPW/8 Av Exp, via Cranberry St, Fulton St Exp, via JFK Airport]
•  Norwood-205 St to Euclid Av [Concourse Peak Exp, CPW/8 Av Exp, via Cranberry St, Fulton St Local]
•  Jamaica Center to Coney Island [QBL Exp, via 53 St, 8 Av local, via Rutgers St, Culver Local]
• (Blue) 168 St to Metropolitan Av [CPW/8 Av Local, via Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn-Broadway Local,  Myrtle Av Local]
•  Forest Hills-71 Av to Bay Ridge-95 St [QBL Local, via 63 St, 6 Av Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, 4 Av Exp/Local]
•  145 St/Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island [Concourse Peak Local, CPW Local, 6 Av Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, 4 Av Exp, Sea Beach Local]
•  Jamaica-179 St to Chambers St-WTC [QBL Exp, via 53 St, 6 Av Local]
•  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island [Astoria Peak Exp, via 60 St, Broadway Local, via Montague St, 4 Av Local, West End Peak Exp]
•  96 St-2 Av to Coney Island [2 Av Local, Broadway Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Local]
•  Forest Hills-71 Av to City Hall/Bay Parkway [QBL Local, via 60 St, Broadway Local, via Montague St, 4 Av Local, West End Local]
• () 96 St-2 Av to Brighton Beach [2 Av Local, Broadway Exp, via Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Exp]

Here are some of how the changes would look like:

I'm not sure how all these services would operate outside of rush hour and weekday. The only services I know for sure of how they will run is the following:

•  Late nights, replaces  trains in Brooklyn, runs express between Canal St and 145 St.
•  stays the same, replaced by  trains with  trains extended to Norwood-205 St.
•  Late nights, runs via 63 St and 6 Av (basically normal  service, but to Jamaica Center).
•  Late Nights, runs local in Brooklyn and terminates at Whitehall St (basically runs Late night  service).
•  Rush hours to Bedford Park Blvd, other times to 145 St. Late nights, replaces  trains to Norwood-205 St.
•  Late nights, runs local in Queens and via 53 St (basically normal  service but to Jamaica-179 St).
•  Late nights, runs local in Manhattan.
•  Late nights, no service.
•  Late nights and weekends, no service.

The  is complicated and I'm not really too sure how to run it outside of weekday service. The  and  swapping is odd for sure, but there isn't any other way running service that isn't needed during late nights. I would've kept the  running local via 63 St, but that would be losing direct service to Queens Plaza and with the  running express, I had to swap them. The  is also complicated for weekend service, the only way I could think of running it would be to run to truncate it to 21 St-Queensbridge during weekends. At least that wouldn't complicate things further. The  replacing  trains during late nights is also odd, but it would basically run something like how the  would run during late nights which replaces  trains during those times so it's not that far of a stretch.

Vulturious, 

I do have to say that your plan seems to check all the boxes as far as limiting the number of merges, providing means for increasing service, and providing a means for most trips that are currently available to stay available.  You eliminate the merging conflicts in the DeKalb area, clean up the  merge along the Broadway line.  While some merging still exists along CPW, it only affects the CPW local.  The Canal st merge on the 8th Ave line is eliminated. 

You also have employed vanshnook's idea of routing the 4th Ave local to the West End line and bringing the 6th Ave expresses to Bay Ridge and Sea Beach.  This cleans up the merges along the 4th Ave line.  It should certainly be noted that a small downside is that West End riders lose their direct access to the Bridge (basically express trains to Midtown that save a ton of time by skipping Downtown Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan), but it is somewhat necessary in order to clean up the merges in this area.  It should also be noted that routing  trains to Bay Ridge do require the addition of a new switch, which vanshnook talks about and which you have shown in your pictures.

Let's rethink the off-peak services for a minute:

 24/7.  [A] will service the stops between 145th and 168th nights and weekends.  [A] will also run local in Brooklyn late nights.  I also like using  to differentiate Lefferts from Rockaway services, but that isn't critical to the discussion of your plan.  [H] would be an [A] in every other way, except its southern destination.

 As you've stated, runs all times except late nights.  [A] will replace [C] during those hours, with [D] handling the Bronx segment during late nights.

 24/7.  You have presented a bit of a conundrum in your descritpion of late night service patterns.  I don't think it is wise to have a regular switch where [E] runs on 8th Ave all times except late night and [F] runs on 6th Ave all times execpt late night.  It is too confusing.  People expect blue trains on 8th and orange trains on 6th.  Let's see if we can do something else to keep it consistent.  Let's start [E] at 179th and [F] at Jamaica Center.  During normal hours, [F] will be express between Briarwood and Forest Hills, while [E] runs local, and yes some rush hour [F] trains will run express to 179th in a similar fashion to today's  .  During normal hours, both [E] and [F] will run express on QBL, through 53rd, with [E] onto 8th Ave local and eventually to Culver line and [F] onto 6th Ave local and eventually to WTC.  During late night hours, [F] will run express along QBL and 63rd, but [E] will run local along QBL and 53rd and Culver.  So in my mind, it seems that the solution is just to flip the eastern terminus of both lines, [E] 179th to Coney Island via 8th Ave local and Culver and [F] Jamaica Center to WTC via 6th Ave local.  This is today's service, except that we switch the middle portion (and the naming). 

 BLUE. [M] should run to 168th on weekdays.  [M] should run to Chambers nights and weekends.  [M] shuttle to Myrtle/Broadway late nights.  When [M] runs to Chambers, it should be only one extra transfer for [M] passengers to complete their normal trips, below 145th.  They can transfer to [E] at Essex to continue on the 8th Ave local and a new transfer at Bowery to Grand will allow [M] passengers to transfer to [D] for trips along CPW. 

 All times except late nights.  Late night service to Whitehall may be the only way to adequately serve Bay Ridge at night.  I don't like orange train on the Broadway route, but I think the unique nature of the service will still be OK.  Obviously, any Bay Ridge passenger during late nights can transfer to [D] for Bridge and 6th Ave service and the Queens portion o this line will be handled by [F] for services along 63rd and [E] for QBL local service.  Transfer from [D] to [F] can occur all along the 6th Ave line and transfers from [D] to [E] can occur at Broadway-Laffayette, W4th, or 7th Ave/53rd.  I do think  that the full length from Forest Hills to Bay Ridge does need to run on weekends.

 24/7.  The northern terminal will change based on the timeframe.  Bedford Park Blvd during rush hours, 145th during mid-day and weekend.  Norwood during late nights when the [C] isn't running.

 24/7.  See discussion for [E] train for details.

 24/7.  Astoria- Broadway local - 4th Ave local - West End local.  I am thinking that the Astoria exp you mentioned was an error, as I don't see any other train handling Astoria local.  I also think it would be better for [N] to be the West End local, since it is a 24/7 route.  [N] should always run to Coney Island, since CI Yard is the only yard serving this route.

 24/7.  2nd - Broadway express - Brighton local.

 No late night service.  QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - 4th Ave local - West End (rush hour) express.  [R] has acces to the Jamaica Yard, so running [R] to either 9th Ave or Bay Parkway for rush hour should be fine.  It would seem easier to run the West End express from Bay Parkway, to avoid merges with [N].

 As this is identical to [Q] except for the rush hour express along Brighton line, let's call this Q-diamond.  This will allow all letters [T] through [Y] for future services.  To some extent, if [K] remains unused, on a nomenclature basis it would make sense to rename [Z] to [K] which would allow J, K, L, and M to represent the BMT Eastern Division services and then allow [Z] for future services as well, but this nomenclature change isn't critical for discussion of your plan.

[mrsman]

Apologize for the bolding above, that was inadvertent.  Also, a further note about night/weekend  service to Chambers.  Under this arrangement,  passengers will be able to access most of Manhattan below 125th with only one transfer.

At Essex, a transfer to  which has access to 8th Ave and 53rd.

At Bowery, a NEW transfer to  for access to 6th Ave express stations, 63rd st line, and CPW local stations.  Only 6th/14th and 6th/23rd are not accessible with one transfer.

At Canal, a transfer to  for access to Lexington Ave stations, and all Broadway stations.

At Chambers, access to  to also allow for access to the Lexington Ave express.

To reach the Financial District, there is access to  at Chambers,  at every Manhattan stop, and  at Canal.

For the most part, the missing Manhattan stations that are only accessed via  are generally walkable from one of the other lines.  The furthest ones are the  stations north of 66th, Hudson Yards, the Tribeca and West Village area, and the stations along  other than 8th/14th and Union Square.

[mrsman]

Referring back to my earlier post.

My service plan comment to Vulturious's post from three posts ago had the folllowing for the trains servicing CPW:

 Inwood-207 to Lefferts OR Rockaways.  8th Ave express-Fulton express.  24/7.  Late nights local in Brooklyn.  Nights and weekends servicing stops between 145th and 168th.

 Norwood-205 to Euclid.  Concourse express during rush hour.  8th Ave express-Fulton local.  All times except late nights.

[M] 168th to Metropolitan Ave.  8th Ave local.  Weekdays. [Nights and weekends [M] will go to Chambers instead.]

 Bedford Park Blvd to Bay Ridge.  CPW local and 6th Ave express.  Rush hour service to BPB.  Weekday and weekend service to 145th.  Late Night service to Norwood-205 to replace  .  

While the above is pretty good, I do think that the following alternative may also be considered.  The alternative will be more in line with the service plan that now exists, at least with respect to CPW.  Inwood trains will run express on CPW, except late nights.  A local service will run to 168th at all times except late nights.  The Concourse will have one service at all times except rush hour, but that service will service every Bronx stop, but run express on CPW, even late nights.  The second Concourse service will run local during rush hour, and will not run at all at other times.  That second service may run to 145th, or may not run at all, if there is sufficient local service running to 168th to take its place.  At least one 8th Ave service and one 6th Ave service will operate even during late nights.

With that in mind, I present the following:

 Inwood-207 to Lefferts OR Rockaways.  CPW express-8th Ave express-Fulton express.  All times except late nights.

 Norwood-205 to Euclid.  Concourse express during rush hour.   CPW express-8th Ave express-Fulton local.  Late nights,  service will be extended to service Lefferts and Far Rockaway.   will run express along CPW and 8th Ave at all times.

[M]  Rush hours: Bedford Park Blvd - Metoropolitan via Concourse-CPW-8th Ave local.  Weekday mid-day: 145th-Metropolitan via CPW-8th Ave local.  Night/weekend: Chambers - Metropolitan via Centre St BMT subway.  Late nights Myrtle/Broadway - Metropolitan shuttle.

 168th to Coney Island.  CPW Local-6 Av Exp-4 Av Exp-Sea Beach Local.   will run 24/7, but late nights it will be extended to Inwood-207.

The above changes mean that now  will run to Forest Hills, as follows:

 Forest Hills to Bay Ridge.  QBL local - 63rd - 6th Ave express - 4th Ave express.  All times except late nights.  Late nights Whitehall-Bay Ridge via 4th Ave local.

[subwaykid256]

Future De-interlining Proposal

Second Avenue Subway

 Crosstown via 125 st. Terminating at 125/St Nicholas 

 Phase 4 is scrapped and replaced by new tracks that will interline the Chrystie St Connection with the Downtown Nassau Line

I propose after Houston St the makes stops Between Bowery and Broad St then use the Montague Tunnel where it will then run via Sea Beach line

where as the runs Brighton Express while the runs to Bay Ridge

 terminates at Whitehall St with 

[Vulturious]

8 hours ago, subwaykid256 said:

Future De-interlining Proposal

Second Avenue Subway

 Crosstown via 125 st. Terminating at 125/St Nicholas 

 Phase 4 is scrapped and replaced by new tracks that will interline the Chrystie St Connection with the Downtown Nassau Line

I propose after Houston St the makes stops Between Bowery and Broad St then use the Montague Tunnel where it will then run via Sea Beach line

where as the runs Brighton Express while the runs to Bay Ridge

 terminates at Whitehall St with 

While the idea of a  going to South Brooklyn isn't a bad idea and I do love the Crosstown 125 St service, I don't think this plan is all too good in terms of execution, let's start off with the benefits. Having the  run along the Nassau St line has been proposed before, it's at least allows for more transfers to other services compared to it's 4th phase. You have a full transfer connection to all of Lexington Av at Chambers St station, a transfer to all of Broadway service at Canal St, as well as a connection to both the  and  at Fulton St with another transfer to the . Another benefit is Nassau St has a direct service to run to Midtown as well as uptown services that runs along the east side of Manhattan, this is really big and adds redundancy.

Although now comes the more questionable and downside part of the whole proposal. Starting off with the downside, with Phase 4 gone, that also means Grand St loses that direct transfer to the SAS. It is probably not that big of a lose since most people that take the  and  wanting service along the east side would usually just transfer over to the  anyway or transfer to the . Another downside is there is still interlining involved here. The only way for the  from what I'm seeing to get to Bay Ridge is for it to switch to the local tracks along 4 Av either still stopping at Dekalb Av, skipping that stop but switching at 36 St, or at 59 St. If trains are still stopping at Dekalb Av, that would mean interfering with the  and . The  would have to stop on the same tracks at Dekalb so that's a no go.  trains would have to continue to 36 St, however that is also a no go because what is running express south of 36 St? Only other area is 59 St, but you end up having direct crossovers between both the  and  because the  would still be running express with the  local. 

This is questionable as something isn't being solved here, 4 Av is still a line that would be affected with interlining. The other questionable and downside thing is the  and , I've said this before on one of your recent posts and I guess I'll have to say it again here, how are the  and  going to terminating together? There is only one track for trains to terminate at Whitehall St. One could say you can simply add a switch, but then what is solving the dilemma with the ? Currently, both the  and  swap crews which allows for  trains access to Coney Island Yard. I highly doubt Jamaica can handle having to deal with another line since there is already another line that Jamaica is dealing with, that being the  now. 

All in all, I don't think much is being solved here, I definitely don't think the system is de-interlined either. The idea in general isn't bad, but the execution of how this being done is definitely not going to make it any easier to run the system.

[ActiveCity]

Remove the and completely. The and will replace them.

[Vulturious]

41 minutes ago, ActiveCity said:

Remove the and completely. The and will replace them.

Replace what and how?

[R68ACTrain]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:59 AM, mrsman said:

 

 24/7.  The northern terminal will change based on the timeframe.  Bedford Park Blvd during rush hours, 145th during mid-day and weekend.  Norwood during late nights when the [C] isn't running.

 

I don't the  should change terminals based off the time. That should be the . Being that the 's frequency is lower than the 's, it wouldn't be logical to have the  to the Bronx all times.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

10 hours ago, Vulturious said:

While the idea of a  going to South Brooklyn isn't a bad idea and I do love the Crosstown 125 St service, I don't think this plan is all too good in terms of execution, let's start off with the benefits. Having the  run along the Nassau St line has been proposed before, it's at least allows for more transfers to other services compared to it's 4th phase. You have a full transfer connection to all of Lexington Av at Chambers St station, a transfer to all of Broadway service at Canal St, as well as a connection to both the  and  at Fulton St with another transfer to the . Another benefit is Nassau St has a direct service to run to Midtown as well as uptown services that runs along the east side of Manhattan, this is really big and adds redundancy.

Although now comes the more questionable and downside part of the whole proposal. Starting off with the downside, with Phase 4 gone, that also means Grand St loses that direct transfer to the SAS. It is probably not that big of a lose since most people that take the  and  wanting service along the east side would usually just transfer over to the  anyway or transfer to the . Another downside is there is still interlining involved here. The only way for the  from what I'm seeing to get to Bay Ridge is for it to switch to the local tracks along 4 Av either still stopping at Dekalb Av, skipping that stop but switching at 36 St, or at 59 St. If trains are still stopping at Dekalb Av, that would mean interfering with the  and . The  would have to stop on the same tracks at Dekalb so that's a no go.  trains would have to continue to 36 St, however that is also a no go because what is running express south of 36 St? Only other area is 59 St, but you end up having direct crossovers between both the  and  because the  would still be running express with the  local. 

This is questionable as something isn't being solved here, 4 Av is still a line that would be affected with interlining. The other questionable and downside thing is the  and , I've said this before on one of your recent posts and I guess I'll have to say it again here, how are the  and  going to terminating together? There is only one track for trains to terminate at Whitehall St. One could say you can simply add a switch, but then what is solving the dilemma with the ? Currently, both the  and  swap crews which allows for  trains access to Coney Island Yard. I highly doubt Jamaica can handle having to deal with another line since there is already another line that Jamaica is dealing with, that being the  now. 

All in all, I don't think much is being solved here, I definitely don't think the system is de-interlined either. The idea in general isn't bad, but the execution of how this being done is definitely not going to make it any easier to run the system.

Maybe in this case, you might run a variant of the Vanshnook plan with the  to/from Bay Ridge (local to 36th; express 36th to Atlantic/Pacific), the  via the Sea Beach Line and the  as the 4th Ave local via the West End Line with a peak direction  express between Bay Pkwy and 9th Ave. You’d then terminate just the  at Whitehall and eliminate the  entirely.

Personally, I’m not really a fan of extending the  to South Brooklyn because it would require either duplicating or replacing the existing  or  services in South Brooklyn. But is there any kind of real advantage in the  replacing any one of those five services?

On 4/10/2022 at 3:41 AM, Vulturious said:

So this was an idea I thought up of with others on this thread a while back discussing how service could run de-interlined, more specifically a de-interlined B division service (this idea takes inspiration from Vanshnook as well).

(proposal)

Here are some of how the changes would look like:

(maps)

I'm not sure how all these services would operate outside of rush hour and weekday. The only services I know for sure of how they will run is the following:

(proposal)

The  is complicated and I'm not really too sure how to run it outside of weekday service. The  and  swapping is odd for sure, but there isn't any other way running service that isn't needed during late nights. I would've kept the  running local via 63 St, but that would be losing direct service to Queens Plaza and with the  running express, I had to swap them. The  is also complicated for weekend service, the only way I could think of running it would be to run to truncate it to 21 St-Queensbridge during weekends. At least that wouldn't complicate things further. The  replacing  trains during late nights is also odd, but it would basically run something like how the  would run during late nights which replaces  trains during those times so it's not that far of a stretch.

I honestly think this entire service plan overall is complicated. What advantage is there in the  going to Forest Hills over the ? Why have an ( M ) via 8th Ave to/from 168th and Broadway?

On 4/10/2022 at 7:53 PM, mrsman said:

Referring back to my earlier post.

My service plan comment to Vulturious's post from three posts ago had the folllowing for the trains servicing CPW:

(proposal)

While the above is pretty good, I do think that the following alternative may also be considered.  The alternative will be more in line with the service plan that now exists, at least with respect to CPW.  Inwood trains will run express on CPW, except late nights.  A local service will run to 168th at all times except late nights.  The Concourse will have one service at all times except rush hour, but that service will service every Bronx stop, but run express on CPW, even late nights.  The second Concourse service will run local during rush hour, and will not run at all at other times.  That second service may run to 145th, or may not run at all, if there is sufficient local service running to 168th to take its place.  At least one 8th Ave service and one 6th Ave service will operate even during late nights.

With that in mind, I present the following:

(proposal)

I personally am not a fan of any proposal that reroutes the  or  to Forest Hills or has the  return to being a full time Broadway local train. I just don’t see how any of these would be an improvement over the current services in Queens or the current  Broadway Local.

Edited April 12, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I honestly think this entire service plan overall is complicated. What advantage is there in the  going to Forest Hills over the ? Why have an ( M ) via 8th Ave to/from 168th and Broadway?

The fact the  already has full length service compared to the , it also runs express in both Manhattan and in Brooklyn. The M's job currently is really just to help riders go from Brooklyn-Broadway and Myrtle Av going uptown as well as riders from QBL into Manhattan. The  wouldn't have an issue handling all of the M's riders and riders from Brooklyn-Broadway and Myrtle Av still have a direct access heading uptown, but this time via 8 Av and to CPW still doing that job. 

[subwaykid256]

On 4/11/2022 at 11:43 AM, Vulturious said:

While the idea of a  going to South Brooklyn isn't a bad idea and I do love the Crosstown 125 St service, I don't think this plan is all too good in terms of execution, let's start off with the benefits. Having the  run along the Nassau St line has been proposed. Dekalb so that's a no go.  trains would have to continue to 36 St, however that is also a no go because what is running express south of 36 St? Only other area is 59 St, but you end up having direct crossovers between both the  and  because the  would still be running express with the  local. This is questionable as something isn't being solved here, 4 Av is still a line that would be affected with interlining. The other questionable and downside thing is the  and , I've said this before on one of your recent posts and I guess I'll have to say it again here, how are the  and  going to terminating together? There is only one track for trains to terminate at Whitehall St. One could say you can simply add a switch, but then what is solving the dilemma with the ? Currently, both the  and  swap crews which allows for  trains access to Coney Island Yard. I highly doubt Jamaica can handle having to deal with another line since there is already another line that Jamaica is dealing with, that being the  now. All in all, I don't think much is being solved here, I definitely don't think the system is de-interlined either. The idea in general isn't bad, but the execution of how this being done is definitely not going to make it any easier to run the system.

Okay then so how about Building a Transfer Between Bowery & Grand St to make up for the lost cross transfer. And if having the run to Brooklyn would be too difficult how about for Phase 4 the simply just terminates at Broad St with the lines. I also had an idea to have a Teal M line after Phase 3 as well but the current M is popular

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, subwaykid256 said:

Okay then so how about Building a Transfer Between Bowery & Grand St to make up for the lost cross transfer. And if having the run to Brooklyn would be too difficult how about for Phase 4 the simply just terminates at Broad St with the lines. I also had an idea to have a Teal M line after Phase 3 as well but the current M is popular

I never said it would be too difficult, it's just how the execution of it is. You could end up having the  run to Bay Ridge instead, although that would lead no yard being an issue. If you wanted to have the  run to Coney, it would be better to run it via West End using Vanshnook's proposal of new switches north of 45 St. 

Bowery and Grand St are close enough, with the  running through Nassau St that should give the MTA more incentive to create a new transfer point that in my opinion has been kind of needed.

I think the creation of the  wouldn't be a bad idea, even if the current  is popular. The reason being is that the  for a long time been a flexible line that gave direct access to areas that hasn't had access before. It probably won't be that much of an issue rerouting it via SAS because riders would still have direct service heading into Midtown from Williamsburg, the only issue is not having that flexible connection to other lines compared to the .

[T to Dyre Avenue]

12 hours ago, Vulturious said:

I never said it would be too difficult, it's just how the execution of it is. You could end up having the  run to Bay Ridge instead, although that would lead no yard being an issue. If you wanted to have the  run to Coney, it would be better to run it via West End using Vanshnook's proposal of new switches north of 45 St. 

Bowery and Grand St are close enough, with the  running through Nassau St that should give the MTA more incentive to create a new transfer point that in my opinion has been kind of needed.

I think the creation of the  wouldn't be a bad idea, even if the current  is popular. The reason being is that the  for a long time been a flexible line that gave direct access to areas that hasn't had access before. It probably won't be that much of an issue rerouting it via SAS because riders would still have direct service heading into Midtown from Williamsburg, the only issue is not having that flexible connection to other lines compared to the .

I think the  would work well for riders who are headed to/from East Midtown. And it can serve as a secondary SAS  service. I suggested having the  continue into Queens via 63rd a couple years back in this thread, but it would be better to run it local like the current  because of its shorter trains. Or else lengthen Eastern Division platforms to fit 10-car trains. Which you’d have to do anyway if you want to run  trains via the  line in Lower Manhattan.

On 4/11/2022 at 11:46 PM, Vulturious said:

The fact the  already has full length service compared to the , it also runs express in both Manhattan and in Brooklyn. The M's job currently is really just to help riders go from Brooklyn-Broadway and Myrtle Av going uptown as well as riders from QBL into Manhattan. The  wouldn't have an issue handling all of the M's riders and riders from Brooklyn-Broadway and Myrtle Av still have a direct access heading uptown, but this time via 8 Av and to CPW still doing that job. 

I get your point about the ‘s shorter trains being an issue on QBL as a reason to substitute the   there. Though because the  is local and weekdays-only, it’s not quite as much of a problem as it would be if it were a QBL express. I suppose running the M via 8th/CPW local wouldn’t be much different than the current  (although the  runs trains of various length depending on whether it’s R46s or R179s, which isn’t a good thing).

Edited April 14, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[subwaykid256]

So I originally proposed to have the run to WillyBrg. But then idk how much space it would take up from the . So I prefer the Nassau St route. 

I also proposed a Flushing Av Line for the 

 

Jackson Hts - Roosevelt Av/74 St

Queens Blvd/74 St

Maurice-Calamus Avs/69 St

Grand Av/69 St

Fresh Pond Rd/Flushing Av

Metropolitan Av/Flushing Av

Wyckoff Av/Flushing Av 

Wilson - Knickerbocker Avs/Flushing Av 

Broadway - Bushwick Av/Flushing Av 

Nostrand  - Marcy Avs  (Flushing Av)

Bedford Av/Flushing Av

Classon Av/ Flushing Av

Clinton - Washington Avs/Flushing Av

Gold - Navy Sts/Flushing Av

Tillary St (intersection between Adams & Jay Sts) with OMNY

Henry St/Pierrepont St  with OMNY

connects to Montague St tunnel where makes stops from Broad St-Bowery then connects to SAS

Speaking of the I propose making them two separate lines. Maybe even making the teal so the can remain as is.

So heres my idea after Broadway Junction I propose an El consisting of three tracks and four new local stations to be built on Jamaica Av where the will take over 

Bushwick - Pennsylvania Avs/ Jamaica Av

Van Siclen Av/Jamaica Av

Ridgewood Av/Jamaica Av

Highland Blvd/Jamaica Av

Afterwards The connects to Cypress Hills and resume service to Jamaica Center

As for the it will make all stops between Broadway Junction and Crescent St. But instead of merging with the i also propose another three Track El via Fulton St-91 Av then via Rockaway Blvd to terminate at Cross Bay-Woodhaven Blvds with a transfer to the 

Eldert Lane/Fulton St-91 Av

Atlantic Av/Rockaway Blvd Proposal for new LIRR Station

101 Av/Rockaway Blvd

Ozone Park - Woodhaven - Cross Bay Blvd 

I propose only using Crescent St railing for reroutes and GO's

Edited April 14, 2022 by subwaykid256
editing proposals

[LGA Link N Train]

Extend the Franklin Shuttle Platforms from 180 Feet to 310 Feet in order for the stations to be able to accomodate Half Length (300 ft Trains) and for better integration with the rest of the B Division in terms of Rolling Stock.