Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Trainmaster5]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:55 AM, Lawrence St said:

It worked back then, why wouldn’t it be able to work now?

Because it never ran to Manhattan. It only ran down to Willis Avenue and ended at the waterfront next to the El, which did enter Manhattan. BTW are you suggesting replacing the Dyre line with a more expensive railroad line ? I don’t think that’s going to go over well with the current ridership. My take. Carry on.

[Benny Kanner]

On the BMT 2nd Avenue Line the <I>, (I), , &  should run local, while the <Y> &  should run express. I also want an IND 3rd Avenue Line. On the IND 3rd Avenue Line, the <P> &  should run local, while the <O> & (O) should run express. The IND 3rd Avenue Line should be divided into two levels, the IND 3rd Avenue Elevated Line (serving the <P> & ) & the IND 3rd Avenue Subway Line (serving the <O> & (O). The BMT 2nd Avenue Line letters be the same color as the  & , while the IND 3rd Avenue Line letters should be pink. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Benny Kanner

[MTA Researcher]

Please Rate My Modified Proposal.

 

 
All times except Nights:

207 - Lefferts: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights:

All local

 

Weekdays:

BPB - WTC: Concourse/CPW/8 Av Lcl

Weekends:

145 - WTC

Nights:

No Service

 

All Times except Nights;

JC - Far Rock/Rock Park: QBL/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights:

JC - WTC via Local

2  trains run from Euclid Av - Rockaways during nights

 

Weekdays:

205 - CI: Concourse/CPW/6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

Weekends and Nights: via Concourse Lcl

 

Weekdays:

179 - CI: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - Culver Exp

Weekends and Nights via 63rd St and Culver Lcl

Weekdays:

71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl - 63rd St - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service

 
All Times:

JC - Broad St: Local

 

Weekdays:

Express between Marcy Av - Broadway Junction

Weekdays:
Metropolitan Av - Chambers St: All Local

Weekends and Nights:

Metropolitan Av - Essex St

 

All Times except Nights:

Astoria - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

Nights:

All Local

 

All Times except Nights:

71 Av - 95 St: QBL Lcl via 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (stops at 45 and 53 Sts with new switches south 36 St)

 

All Times:

168 - CI: CPW/Bway/4 Av Lcl via Montague St and West End

 

Weekdays:

West End Express

 Broadway Local

All Times except Nights:

96 St/2 Av - Euclid Av: Bway/Fulton St Lcl via Montague St

Nights:

96 St/2 Av - 34 St Herald Sq.

SUMMARY:

 

Before some of you roast me (looking at you @Vulturious regarding  ; let me say this: I don’t know where to place the   at without conflicting with other lines… unless SAS becomes a thing we are stuck with  under this proposal… Also @TMC pointed out something regarding the  not fully helping ease crowding on the  train…

 

Now under this proposal all Upper East/West Side trains go local in broadway while Queens bound trains connect to the Express tracks. This is done flipping the tracks around 57 St/7 Av. I know Queens needs midtown express given the fact it’s densely populated (looking at QBL,  and even Astoria). Sorry to say but with no 2 Av Express; 2 Av commuters will have to settle for Broadway Local.

 

Skip Stop is bad as opposed to having an express variant of  

 

Rate and if you disagree, give me feedback on what I missed, and I will try to accommodate. Comment On!

[Kamen Rider]

Simple answer... let them "conflict". The system was designed around interlining. 

 

Also, once again, ridership prefences are not taken into account and you basically are forcing anyone trying to get a very early flight out of Kennedy to switch to a shuttle. 

[MTA Researcher]

40 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Also, once again, ridership prefences are not taken into account and you basically are forcing anyone trying to get a very early flight out of Kennedy to switch to a shuttle

All right then,  to Far Rock it is then and  to Lefferts…

[Lex]

The idea that the  is somehow a failure for not doing much to siphon riders from the  is honestly an insane idea in no small part because the route is nonetheless reasonably popular, to say nothing of the fact that they're usually not that close together, anyway.

[MTA Researcher]

Well this just came to mind… *sigh* RIP Orange Q

 

 

All Times except nights 

207 - Lefferts: CPW/8 Av Fulton St Exp

Nights:

Euclid Av - Lefferts

 

Weekdays:

205 - Far Rock/Rock Pk: Concourse/CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Weekends: Via Concourse Lcl

Late Nights: Concourse/ Fulton St Lcl

 

All Times except Nights:

JC - WTC: QBL Exp - 8 Av Lcl

Nights: All Local

 

All Times except Nights:

168 St - Bay Ridge 95 St: CPW Lcl - 6 Av/4 Av Exp (stops at 45 and 53 Sts)

Nights:

Extended to 207 St

 
Weekdays:

BPB - CI: Concourse/CPW Lcl - 6 Av/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

Weekends and Nights: Cut back to 145 St

 
Weekdays:

179 St - CI: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - Culver Exp

Weekends and Nights via Culver Lcl

 

All Times: 71 Av - Metropolitan Av: QBL/6 Av Lcl via 63rd St (36 St in Queens Blvd becomes an express station)

 
All Times:

JC - Broad St: Local

 

Weekdays:

Espress between Marcy Av - Broadway Junction 

 
Weekdays:

71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 60 St - Bway/Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service

 

All Times except Nights:

96 St/2 Av - Euclid Av: Bway/Fulton St Lcl via Montague St

Nights: No Service

 
All Times except Nights:

Astoria - CI: Bway Exp - Brighton Lcl

Nights: All Local

 

All Times:

96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Lcl via Montague St and West End

 

Rate and Comment!

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:38 PM, Kamen Rider said:

Simple answer... let them "conflict". The system was designed around interlining. 

 

Also, once again, ridership prefences are not taken into account and you basically are forcing anyone trying to get a very early flight out of Kennedy to switch to a shuttle. 

Deinterlining is one of those things that require balance. There's a point where the number of tph you run is more important than options for riders, but most subway lines aren't at that point. I tend to believe a place like South Brooklyn doesn't need to be de-interlined because most of those lines do more than fine with a train only every 5 to 6 minutes, whereas de-interlining makes more sense on somewhere like Queens Blvd where you just need as many express tph into Manhattan as you can get.

A good direct comparison would be Lexinton Avenue Subway vs 8th Avenue subway. On the Lexington Avenue subway sending  trains to lower Manhattan and Brooklyn would be nice, but would constrain capacity on a line that needs as many tph as it can get. Meanwhile on 8th Avenue line, both the  (express) and  (local) merge to share the Cranberry tubes into Brooklyn; neither of these services need to be running at maximum capacity individually so the added option for riders makes sense.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Anyone ever get depressed that it's very possible that in our lifetimes, only a few "megaprojects" we discuss will ever be completed?

The only 2 subway megaproject I feel confident will get done in my lifetime is SAS Phase II, perhaps a Utica Av subway as an extension of the , and a few of the more minor MTA proposals (extending the  1 stop or adding 10th Av on the )

Like it's just sad to think even I may never live to see some form of a full SAS, 10th Avenue subway, Rockaway Beach Branch, more coverage in Queens, ect, after constantly dreaming of them my whole life.

 

Honestly, it'd be my dream job to get to a high enough position where I can make a change however small on these fronts, the issue is that that's often hard unless you're previously well connected with politics and stuff. As I go into college and choose what courses I want to take (and my ultimate life path), some sort of job around the subway is something I'm considering, especially if I could be that person who people look to at work because I'm so passionate about this issue.

While I haven't committed officially, the college I plan to go to has a very good Urban Studies department, and you can sort of custom-build your degree among multiple areas of study. I also want math to be some part of it cause I'm good at math and at my current HS, I've invested so much into taking courses like Statistics, Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, Math Research, and Number Theory; I wouldn't want to put those skills to waste.

[bobtehpanda]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:13 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Anyone ever get depressed that it's very possible that in our lifetimes, only a few "megaprojects" we discuss will ever be completed?

The only 2 subway megaproject I feel confident will get done in my lifetime is SAS Phase II, perhaps a Utica Av subway as an extension of the , and a few of the more minor MTA proposals (extending the  1 stop or adding 10th Av on the )

Like it's just sad to think even I may never live to see some form of a full SAS, 10th Avenue subway, Rockaway Beach Branch, more coverage in Queens, ect, after constantly dreaming of them my whole life.

 

Honestly, it'd be my dream job to get to a high enough position where I can make a change however small on these fronts, the issue is that that's often hard unless you're previously well connected with politics and stuff. As I go into college and choose what courses I want to take (and my ultimate life path), some sort of job around the subway is something I'm considering, especially if I could be that person who people look to at work because I'm so passionate about this issue.

While I haven't committed officially, the college I plan to go to has a very good Urban Studies department, and you can sort of custom-build your degree among multiple areas of study. I also want math to be some part of it cause I'm good at math and at my current HS, I've invested so much into taking courses like Statistics, Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, Math Research, and Number Theory; I wouldn't want to put those skills to waste.

To be quite frank, if that's your dream you probably won't achieve it.

Planners first, and foremost, are bureaucrats. They implement policies to fit officials' desires, but they do not have the mandate or the authority to start imposing their own ideas willy nilly. The primary problem with the MTA's building, is political, not technological, so if you want to fix that a better bet is probably to run for office.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

12 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be quite frank, if that's your dream you probably won't achieve it.

Planners first, and foremost, are bureaucrats. They implement policies to fit officials' desires, but they do not have the mandate or the authority to start imposing their own ideas willy nilly. The primary problem with the MTA's building, is political, not technological, so if you want to fix that a better bet is probably to run for office.

Yeah I acknowledge that; I wish there was some sort of formal committee that could design and recommend projects to politicians at the very least rather than the other way around. I think in basically any "creative" field (planning, architecture, art, design, etc), very few actually have any true sense of freedom; the ones that do are way way over-represented in media.

I tend to not be the best speaker/well-spoken person, and I'm just generally not a huge people person, so I think it'd be hard for me to ever have much of a political career. Even with politics though, people may have to sacrifice personal values to get the support of a political party and donors; otherwise you lose re-election. Very few can have freedom and keep their careers.

Honestly, the best thing I could do rn would be to get involved in an effort to turn get an initiative that restructures MTA on the ballot.

[bobtehpanda]

22 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Honestly, the best thing I could do rn would be to get involved in an effort to turn get an initiative that restructures MTA on the ballot.

That would require either the legislature to pass a law allowing a referendum, or amending the state constitution to allow voter-proposed initiatives.

The recent transit expansions in the US are funded by voter-proposed initiatives, which is mostly a thing in Western states.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

22 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That would require either the legislature to pass a law allowing a referendum, or amending the state constitution to allow voter-proposed initiatives.

The recent transit expansions in the US are funded by voter-proposed initiatives, which is mostly a thing in Western states.

Oh shoot, sometimes I wish NY was more like MI or CA when it comes to CITIZEN initiated - ballot initiatives; ik we have city-wide initiatives but that causes logistical issues since a lot of the MTA is outside the 5 boroughs and it's mainly a state run thing.  

Best bet might be to hope NYC grows faster than the rest of the state and eventually becomes a close to or an majority of the legislature on it's own. Right now, upstate and L.I. Ds + Rs can often shoot down a lot of NYC priorities.

[Benny Kanner]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:13 PM, MTA Researcher said:

Please Rate My Modified Proposal. 

All times Getty Square-Prospect Street to Far Rockaway Loop: Inwood/Central Park West/8 Av/Fulton Street/Liberty Avenue Express & Rockaway local

 

All times Spuyten Duyvil-236th Street to Hamilton Beach: Inwood/Central Park West/8 Av/Fulton Street/Liberty Avenue express & Rockaway local

 

All times Inwood-215th Street to Freeport-Mill Road: Inwood/Central Park West/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Liberty Avenue local & Merrick express

 

All times Inwood-215th Street to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard: Inwood/Central Park West/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Liberty Avenue local

 

All times South Hempstead-Southern State Parkway to Bayonne Bridge: Peninsula Boulevard/Merrick local, Queens Boulevard express & 8th Avenue/Union Street/Brighton/Fort Hamilton Parkway/Verrazzano Narrows Bridge/Staten Island Expressway/Clove Road local

 

All times Roy Wilkins Park-Foch Boulevard to Bard Avenue: Merrick local, Queens Boulevard express & 8th Avenue/Union Street/Brighton/Fort Hamilton Parkway/Verrazzano Narrows Bridge/Staten Island Expressway/Clove Road local

 

All times Co-Op City to Clearview-Willets Point Boulevard: Concourse/Central Park West/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Liberty Avenue/Utopia Parkway local

 

All times Fordham Road to Euclid Avenue: Concourse/Central Park West/8th Avenue/Fulton Street local

 

All times Throgs Neck-Schurz Avenue to Tottenville-Hylan Boulevard: Throgs Neck/Bruckner Boulevard/Concourse/Central Park West local, 6th Avenue/Brighton/West End, & 86th Street/Verrazzano Narrows Bridge/Staten Island Expressway/Clove Road/Richmond Terrace/West Shore Expressway/Amboy local

 

All times Bedford Park Boulevard to Brighton Beach: Concourse/Central Park West local, 6th Avenue/Brighton express

 

New Hyde Park-Lakeville Road to Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue: Hillside Avenue/Queens Boulevard express, 53rd Street/6 Avenue, & Culver local

 

 

Jamaica-179th Street to Ditmas Avenue: Hillside Avenue local, Queens Boulevard express, & 53rd Street/6 Avenue/Culver local

 

 

All times JFK Airport-TWA Hotel to Stuyvesant Heights-Bainbridge Street: Van Wyck Expressway/Queens Boulevard/53rd Street, 6th Avenue/Utica Avenue local

 

All times Jamaica-Atlantic Avenue to 2nd Avenue: Queens Boulevard/53rd Street/6th Avenue local

 

All times Forest Hills-71st Avenue to Coney Island-Surf Avenue: Queens Boulevard/Crosstown/Culver/Ocean Parkway local

 

All times Court Square to Church Avenue: Crosstown/Culver/Ocean Parkway local

 

(LIGHT GREEN)

All times Upper West Side-Broadway to Prince's Bay-Hylan Boulevard: 86th Street (Manhattan)/Roosevelt Island/Crosstown/Culver/West End/86th Street (Brooklyn)/Verrazzano Narrows Bridge, Staten Island Expressway/Clove Road/Richmond Terrace/West Shore express, & Prince's Bay local

 

(LIGHT GREEN)

All times Upper West Side-Broadway to Neptune Avenue: 86th Street/Roosevelt Island/Crosstown/Culver local

 

<U> (LIGHT GREEN)

All times Colonial Heights-Verona Avenue to Coney Island-West 24th Street: Central Park Avenue local, Webster Avenue express, Randalls Island local, Crosstown/Culver/Ocean Parkway express, & Surf Avenue local

 

 (LIGHT GREEN)

All times Brooke Avenue to Coney Island-West 24th Street: Central Park Avenue local, Webster Avenue express, Randalls Island local, Crosstown/Culver/Ocean Parkway express, & Surf Avenue local

 

<I> (TURQUOISE)

All times Battery Park to Inwood-Cypress Road: 2nd Avenue/Broadway (Queens) local, Queens Boulevard/Rockaway express, & Sheridan Boulevard local

 

(I) (TURQUOISE)

All times Battery Park to Forest Park-Myrtle Avenue: 2nd Avenue/Broadway (Queens) local, Queens Boulevard express, & Rockaway local

 

All times Manhattanville-Saint Clair Place to Bloomfield-Edward Curry Avenue: 125th Street/2nd Avenue local & North Shore express

 

All times Manhattanville-Saint Clair Place to Saint Joseph's Avenue: 125th Street/2nd Avenue local/North Shore local

 

<Y> (TURQUOISE)

All times Crotona Park-Wilkins Avenue to Island Park-Austin Boulevard Concourse local, 2nd Avenue express, & Nassau Street/Brooklyn Bridge/Fulton Street Elevated/Liberty Avenue Elevated/Merrick/Island Park local

 

(TURQUOISE)

All times 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Springfield Boulevard: Concourse local, 2nd Avenue express, & Nassau Street/Brooklyn Bridge/Fulton Street Elevated/Liberty Avenue Elevated/Merrick local

 

 

All times West Hempstead-Sycamore Street to Bulls Head-Victory Boulevard: Hempstead Turnpike/Jamaica Elevated/Williamsburg Bridge/Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (Brooklyn), North Shore express, & Doctor Martin Luther King Junior Expressway local

 

 

 
All times Jamaica-168th Street to Oakland Avenue: Jamaica Elevated/Williamsburg Bridge/Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (Brooklyn)/North Shore local

 

All times Bronx Park to Dyker Beach Park-86th Street: White Plains Road/College Point Boulevard/Northern Boulevard/Queens Boulevard/53rd Street/6th Avenue/Jamaica Elevated/Lexington Avenue Elevated (Brooklyn)/Myrtle Avenue Elevated/Manhattan Bridge/Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (BROOKLYN)/Sea Beach/12th Avenue Elevated local

 

 

(BROWN)

All times College Point-5th Avenue to Fort Hamilton Parkway: White Plains Road/College Point Boulevard/Northern Boulevard/Queens Boulevard/53rd Street/6th Avenue/Jamaica Elevated/Lexington Avenue Elevated (Brooklyn)/Myrtle Avenue Elevated/Manhattan Bridge/Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (BROOKLYN)/Sea Beach local

 

<X> (BROWN)

All times Pelham Bay Park to Lawrence: Fordham Road-Pelham Parkway local & 9th Avenue/Nassau Street/Williamsburg Bridge/Jamaica Elevated/Rockaway Boulevard express

 

(BROWN)

All times Inwood-207th Street to 133rd Avenue: Inwood local, 9th Avenue/Nassau Street/Williamsburg Bridge/Jamaica Elevated express, & Rockaway Boulevard local

 

All times Bayside-Northern Boulevard to Clove Lake Park: Springfield Boulevard/Hillside Avenue/Archer Avenue local, Jamaica Elevated express, Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (BROOKLYN) local, & Forest Avenue express

 

All times Jamaica Center to Tompkinsville-Victory Boulevard: Archer Avenue local, Jamaica Elevated express, & Williamsburg Bridge/Nassau Street/Governors Island/Bergen Street/7th Avenue (BROOKLYN)/Forest Avenue local

 

All times Harlem-135th Street to Canarsie Pier: Madison Avenue/86th Street/West End Avenue/10th Avenue/14th Street/Canarsie local

 

All times 34th Street-Hudson Yards to Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway: 10th Avenue/14th Street/Canarsie local

 

<S> (CANARSIE GRAY)

All times Harlem-125th Street to Tottenville-Bentley Street: 1st Avenue/86th Street/West End Avenue/10th Avenue local, 14th Street/Canarsie express, Bay Ridge local, & North Shore/West Shore Expressway/Amboy express

 

(CANARSIE GRAY)

All times 18th Street to Brooklyn Army Terminal: 10th Avenue local, 14th Street/Canarsie express, & Bay Ridge local

 

 

All times Fordham Plaza to Manhattan Beach-MacKenzie Street: 3rd Avenue Elevated/Saint Ann's Avenue Elevated/Randalls Island/LaGuardia/Astoria/60th Street/Broadway/Manhattan Bridge local, 4th Avenue/Sea Beach/Brighton express, & Manhattan Beach local

 

 

 

All Times Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard to 8th Avenue: Astoria/60th Street/Broadway/Manhattan Bridge local, 4th Avenue express, & Sea Beach local

 

 

All times Crocheron Park-217th Street to Seagate-West 36th Street: Crocheron Avenue/Flushing/Astoria Boulevard Connection/LaGuardia local, Astoria express, 60th Street local, Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge/Brighton/Surf Avenue local

 

All times Ditmars Boulevard-111th Street to Newkirk Plaza: LaGuardia local, Astoria express, 60th Street local, Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge/Brighton

 

 

All Times Little Bay Park-Cross Island Parkway to Graniteville-Richmond Avenue: Malba/College Point Boulevard local, Northern Boulevard express, 60th Street/Broadway/Montague Street/4th Avenue/Bay Street/Victory Boulevard/Watchogue Road local

 

 

All times Willets Point-World's Fair Marina to Bay Ridge-Shore Road: Northern Boulevard express, 60th Street/Broadway/Montague Street/4th Avenue local

 

All Times StarlightPark-174th Street to Travis-Wild Avenue: Manida Street/Manida Street Bridge/Rikers Island Bridge/Astoria/60th Street/Broadway/Montague Street/4th Avenue/West End/15th Avenue/86th Street/Verrazzano Narrows Bridge/Staten Island Expressway/Clove Road/Victory Boulevard local

 

 

All Times Rikers Island to Dyker Heights-10th Avenue: Rikers Island Bridge/Astoria/60th Street/Broadway/Montague Street/4th Avenue/West End/15th Avenue/86th Street local

 

<O> (MAGENTA)

All Times Spuyten Duyvil to New Dorp Beach: Van Cortlandt Park South local, Concourse/3rd Avenue express, Governors Island, North Shore local, & Seaview express

 

(O) (MAGENTA)

All Times Spuyten Duyvil to Midland Beach-Lincoln Avenue: Van Cortlandt Park South local, Concourse/3rd Avenue express, & Governors Island/North Shore/Seaview local

 

<P> (MAGENTA)

All Times Colonial Heights-Alta Vista Drive to South Ferry: Bronx River Parkway Elevated/Webster Avenue Elevated/3rd Avenue Elevated local

 

(MAGENTA)

All Times Palmer Avenue to South Ferry: Bronx River Parkway Elevated/Webster Avenue Elevated/3rd Avenue Elevated local

[TDL]

For post-Yankee game specials, to provide consistency and branding, the MTA should run any extra game specials as  trains, the Y bullet being inside a baseball ⚾️. It would make limited stops after Yankee Stadium. It would stop at 125th St, 59th St, 42nd St-PABT, and terminate at 34th-Penn. They would then run in service as  trains to 205th Street, then resume normal service. Limited service can be run from 34th Penn prior to games, terminating at 161-Yankee, and running light to Bedford Park Blvd to resume southbound  service.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, TDL said:

For post-Yankee game specials, to provide consistency and branding, the MTA should run any extra game specials as  trains, the Y bullet being inside a baseball ⚾️. It would make limited stops after Yankee Stadium. It would stop at 125th St, 59th St, 42nd St-PABT, and terminate at 34th-Penn. They would then run in service as  trains to 205th Street, then resume normal service. Limited service can be run from 34th Penn prior to games, terminating at 161-Yankee, and running light to Bedford Park Blvd to resume southbound  service.

Hate to break it to you, but those  bullets don't exist outside of the R32's which aren't in service no longer. Besides, normally the MTA just doesn't care what bullet is used, most times it's on "SPECIAL" for special service or it's just in between 2 different bullets like the and .

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Idk if someone else here might be able to second this, but my dad's friend who works at MTA HQ in Lower Manhattan (on some logistical stuff) said there's been a recent revival of Utica Avenue Subway talk ever since the MTA released that study right before COVID and things went cold, and there will hopefully be something significant in the 2025-2029 budget.

The original study said they were basically investigating 4 options:

-BRT

-Light Rail

-A Utica Avenue Subway via Eastern Parkway as an extension of the current  or  (elevated or underground) 

-A Utica Avenue Subway via Fulton St  (elevated or underground)

From the report, some form of a Utica Avenue subway as an extension of the seems the strong favorite. The reason I say this is because so much of the report focusses on potential other Eastern Parkway projects that would be good to get gone if you're going to build Utica Avenue Subway (new Brooklyn yard, fixing Rodgers Junction, ect).  One thing that is unclear is if the MTA would go elevated or underground - hopefully if they do go underground, it's not a crazy expensive ultra-deep level style like SAS, especially since this is a lower density residential area.

The other options all have issues. BRT likely doesn't do enough to fix the underlying problem, and the initial report says that MTA sees Light Rail as having comparable benefits to BRT but more expensive, and adding a branch to IND Fulton line would likely require a weird set-up at Utica Av and put an impossible demand on Cranberry to handle like 5 different services

I think the IRT Eastern Pkwy extension is the superior option if your only goal is to provide Utica Avenue a subway, but In an ideal world, I think Utica Avenue should be part of a megaproject that re-vitalizes some form of the South 4th St subway, increasing transit access to growing Williamsburg and providing redundancy for the aging Broadway el, and helping to alleviate  crowding. This would also provide Southeast Brooklyn a more direct line to midtown. It would also just provide a really efficient link between multiple train lines.

I doubt the MTA would do this, but one thing they could do is just build Utica Avenue subway as a new "" shuttle line between Fulton St - Utica Avenue (current IND shell) and Flatubsh Av - Utica, but with provisions for Phase II to build a South 4th St subway to send it to the city. I just don't see how you could add a through-running Utica branch to Fulton St Line with only Cranberry tubes into the city and the existing Utica Av set up.

 

Also worth noting that Eastern Pwky may be the best option but isn't perfect. You'd be forced to address Rodger's junction and would be adding another branch to Eastern Pwky, plus only the local tracks have access to the Utica Av provisions; if you were to have the  go to Utica and the  go to New Lots, you'd need a new yard for the , and to have the  go Utica you'd need a completely new set up. This Utica Av subway wouldn't have transfers to any other subway line and only serves the lower part of Utica Av. Finally, the future of the NYC subway seems to be more towards the larger and more common B-divison cars.

Edited April 23, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[Vulturious]

3 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I doubt the MTA would do this, but one thing they could do is just build Utica Avenue subway as a new "" shuttle line between Fulton St - Utica Avenue (current IND shell) and Flatubsh Av - Utica, but with provisions for Phase II to build a South 4th St subway to send it to the city. I just don't see how you could add a through-running Utica branch to Fulton St Line with only Cranberry tubes into the city and the existing Utica Av set up.

Well, one of the proposals the IND made for the Second System was for the Utica Av line to connect to the South 4 St line that also would've had direct connections to both 6 and 8 Av lines. I mean you already have a showcasing of provisions to the Worth St connection that also currently exists. This begs the question on whether this would actually be considered which if I'm going to be honest here, the has a better chance seeing that extension than the South 4 St line ever could.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

7 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Well, one of the proposals the IND made for the Second System was for the Utica Av line to connect to the South 4 St line that also would've had direct connections to both 6 and 8 Av lines. I mean you already have a showcasing of provisions to the Worth St connection that also currently exists. This begs the question on whether this would actually be considered which if I'm going to be honest here, the has a better chance seeing that extension than the South 4 St line ever could.

I don't think it will be considered sadly. With the recent MTA megaprojects, they often look at them at very face value rather than thinking about how it could tie into the larger system long term.

Another thing I've noticed is with these MTA reports on megaprojects, they seem to intestinally exclude anything more robust than the one they tunnel-vision for. A good example would be with SAS; the original report from the early 2000s listed alternatives like BRT, light rail, jitney vans (lol), a line only North of 63rd St, and converting Lexington Avenue to B-division, but didn't list more robust alternatives like a quad-track subway or a line that somehow had a whole new branch into Brooklyn or Queens. The current SAS proposal with the  and  was the best and most significant option on that list, but still far from perfect as many have discussed.

From their initial winter report, it seems the MTA has tunnel-vision for Utica Avenue being an extension of Eastern Parkway. Not only is it the most robust option listed (tied with Fulton St extension), but the report talks so much about the Eastern Parkway line in general, even in areas that don't serve Utica Av. To me, it seems like they just wanna do a whole Eastern Parkway line enhancing megaproject, that would fix Rodgers, add a new yard, perhaps extend the current  a stop past new lots, and yes build some form of Utica Av subway as a branch. Another thing that needs to be addressed imo is the Nostrand Av line needs a better terminal, and this can be done without actually extending the line.

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This would be my personal like 50-60 year MTA expansion plan, largely building off of existing infrastructure.

Second Avenue Subway: Fully complete, with SAS taking over the  and  over the Manhattan Bridge. The  would run on a separate pair of express tracks under the . The  is also extended along 3rd Avenue in the Bronx. There is also a service, here labeled "blue W" that would go via the QBLVD to the Rockaway Branch. The 125th St crosstown would also be built and be served by SAS locals .

Utica Avenue Subway:  use existing provisions to go into Brooklyn along the never Completed South 4th St route, then turn down Utica Avenue. There would be no express tracks for this route, though should be built with provisions for express tracks, especially on the South 4th Section.

Connecting Broadway to Fulton St Line via the Transit Musuem (Hoyt St). There are currently provisions that allow this tunnel to be built on both ends, and the  would take over the 's job in Montague and along 4th Av. This would eliminate the Fulton line being constrained by Cranberry tubes, and the  would run as an express to Lefferts. Generally speaking, trains from Cranberry would be Fulton Express and trains from Broadway would be Fulton Local.

 to Laurelton. This would create a higher capacity terminal, add a new yard, and expand access, taking burden off the busses.

 up 10th Avenue. Again, this would allow for more tph on the  along with a reconstruction of the Canarsie terminal, and fill in the West Side transit desert. You could also do a larger project to increase the  to 600ft 10 car trains.

Astoria extension to the Airport. Pretty self-explanatory

 extension to Springfield.

Other service changes:

 train would go back to being brown, terminating at Chambers St to allow for 6th Avenue expresses to serve the new South 4th St line.

A new  service which is basically an  local. This service would be the same as the old  train except it runs all the way down to Church Av, functioning as a Culver Local. This would allow the  to be a dedicated Culver Express.

10th Avenue stop on the

Rebuilding Rodgers Junction, 149th St Junction, and making Flatbush Av-Brooklyn College a higher capacity terminal.

 

Some of these projects are much more realistic than others, but I think each thing on this list serves an important purpose in improving some aspect of the system while still thinking about the indirect impacts on the rest of the system.

 

Overall, I feel like this does a good job at both filling in transit deserts while also solving overcrowding on existing subway lines, and addressing the main bottlenecks of the current system. It also helps to increase intra-Brooklyn-Queens connectivity. One thing I think this plan is missing is some sort of new Queens line that alleviates both Flushing and QBLVD all while expanding access, but what exactly that route looks like needs more research on my part. It likely wouldn't be an interlined branch with the rest of the system though. Other extensions such as  to Hollis or  extension down Nostrand Avenue would be nice, but for the sake of this they are lower priority.

[TDL]

On 4/20/2023 at 11:29 PM, Vulturious said:

Hate to break it to you, but those  bullets don't exist outside of the R32's which aren't in service no longer. Besides, normally the MTA just doesn't care what bullet is used, most times it's on "SPECIAL" for special service or it's just in between 2 different bullets like the and .

It would be a new special bullet- a baseball with a Y inside it. Just for consistency so riders know where the train is going.

[Vulturious]

6 hours ago, TDL said:

It would be a new special bullet- a baseball with a Y inside it. Just for consistency so riders know where the train is going.

It's not really worth adding that bullet overall, the only trains that are coming from Yankee Stadium are just the R68/A's. And depending on what NTT's Concourse gets after more R211's come in, the crew onboard that special train would just sign it up to whatever line is running around so most likely the  or  to whatever terminal they're heading to.

[TDL]

18 hours ago, Vulturious said:

It's not really worth adding that bullet overall, the only trains that are coming from Yankee Stadium are just the R68/A's. And depending on what NTT's Concourse gets after more R211's come in, the crew onboard that special train would just sign it up to whatever line is running around so most likely the  or  to whatever terminal they're heading to.

It may not be worth it operationally, but for marketing, they might just consider it. Plus it would add a connection to Penn Station that doesn't exist currently.

[ActiveCity]

I'm surprised that there's no talk about the IND Worth St line. In my opinion, phase 1 should be from Canal Street, to Pitt and Grand Streets. The additional phases that follow should be up for debate regarding where the line should go and end.

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2 hours ago, ActiveCity said:

I'm surprised that there's no talk about the IND Worth St line. In my opinion, phase 1 should be from Canal Street, to Pitt and Grand Streets. The additional phases that follow should be up for debate regarding where the line should go and end.

I think it'd just be extremely logistically complicated when there are clearer connections for a line coming from Williamsburg area; rmbr you'd be navigating 3 different underground quad track trunks, relatively narrow streetways with skyscrapers on either side, and ofc all the other underground infrastructure. WTC could handle 18tph on the  with CBTC, but with very little margin for error; long-term you'd prolly want to figure out a way to increase terminating capacity or have more QBLVD expresses via 6th Avenue than 8th.