Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Q43LTD]

1 hour ago, Ex696 said:

So the current B57 is the best form of it, and only a frequency increase is needed?

 

I was ok with the going from Downtown Brooklyn to Maspeth

[checkmatechamp13]

4 hours ago, Ex696 said:

So the current B57 is the best form of it, and only a frequency increase is needed?

I think that connection to Jackson Heights would be beneficial. The current B57 terminal is somewhat of a stub. 

[Ex696]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The current B57 terminal is somewhat of a stub. 

Do you believe that having a stub as a terminal is okay in certain cases or all routes should terminate at places with demand?

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, Ex696 said:

Do you believe that having a stub as a terminal is okay in certain cases or all routes should terminate at places with demand?

Sometimes a stub is necessary. As long as you can transfer to go further in the same direction. What I don’t like are stubs like the B45 and B65 where you can’t go further or when they extended the B67 to terminate just outside Williamsburg Bridge Plaza where you could have had many transfers. They did that only to save a bus which is penny wise and pound foolish.

[B35 via Church]

15 hours ago, Ex696 said:

So the current B57 is the best form of it, and only a frequency increase is needed?

AFAIC, the current B57 from end to end is a massive waste of resources; the SB B57 is more or less an afterthought past Downtown Brooklyn; you don't see any real collective of riders specifically waiting for B57's in Downtown seeking SB service.... On top of it, it's usually stragglers left on the bus after it serves Downtown Brooklyn.... The masses in Downtown that are seeking service towards Cobble Hill, etc. essentially all gun for the B61.... So I'm most definitely not defending the current B57, if that's what you're trying to get at...

I would only run the thing between Downtown Brooklyn & Flushing/Metropolitan av., at current headways.... I've always thought that the fact that service runs separately on uni-directional streets (Smith/Court) was a huge deterrent to Cobble Hill & Carroll Gardens patrons on the old B75 & the current B57..... Usage was never great on the B75 on that stretch (either direction) either.....

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think that connection to Jackson Heights would be beneficial. The current B57 terminal is somewhat of a stub. 

It's definitively a stub, no doubt about it... The patrons of the area will tell you that.

Aside from that, while I'm not all too high on the proposed B57, what I will say (if I haven't elsewhere on here already) is that the proposed B57 is a better use of resources than the current B57.....

5 hours ago, Ex696 said:

Do you believe that having a stub as a terminal is okay in certain cases or all routes should terminate at places with demand?

Interesting (as in, good) question....

I'd say in very very rare cases like the Bx36 in Soundview (even with the new routing, it's still a highly utilized route that doesn't need to run down to Clason Pt. with the Bx27/39 or to Castle Hill/Zerega with the Bx22)... Or maybe like with the Q49, where it doesn't need to pan east towards Flushing, nor northwards towards Ditmars Blvd (or LGA for that matter).... There's some that's done for logistical reasons like the Bx1 in Kingsbridge & the B35 in Brownsville, but even those are on the wrong side of the threshold of stub terminals IDRC for....

10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Sometimes a stub is necessary. As long as you can transfer to go further in the same direction.

What I don’t like are stubs like the B45 and B65 where you can’t go further or when they extended the B67 to terminate just outside Williamsburg Bridge Plaza where you could have had many transfers. They did that only to save a bus which is penny wise and pound foolish.

IDC for either of the two types mentioned... Stubbing a route somewhere because there happens to be another route that runs further in that same direction, doesn't cut it for me...

For instance, the M55 should at least run to 59th (regardless if there's a multitude of routes running up/down 5th/6th).... Nobody on the Q18 cares that the Q67 continues down 69th st. to get to the .... LMFAO at the fact they stubbed the newest rendition of the Bx30 at Pelham Parkway (when riders are clearly still taking the Bee Line routes along Boston Rd. to get to Fordham Plaza)...

[SubBus]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

AFAIC, the current B57 from end to end is a massive waste of resources; the SB B57 is more or less an afterthought past Downtown Brooklyn; you don't see any real collective of riders specifically waiting for B57's in Downtown seeking SB service.... On top of it, it's usually stragglers left on the bus after it serves Downtown Brooklyn.... The masses in Downtown that are seeking service towards Cobble Hill, etc. essentially all gun for the B61.... So I'm most definitely not defending the current B57, if that's what you're trying to get at...

I would only run the thing between Downtown Brooklyn & Flushing/Metropolitan av., at current headways.... I've always thought that the fact that service runs separately on uni-directional streets (Smith/Court) was a huge deterrent to Cobble Hill & Carroll Gardens patrons on the old B75 & the current B57..... Usage was never great on the B75 on that stretch (either direction) either.....

It's definitively a stub, no doubt about it... The patrons of the area will tell you that.

Aside from that, while I'm not all too high on the proposed B57, what I will say (if I haven't elsewhere on here already) is that the proposed B57 is a better use of resources than the current B57.....

 

What do you think of the proposed B27?  I think it's the modern version of the B75 that goes west towards Red Hook...(B77)

Edited October 23, 2023 by SubBus

[Ex696]

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

the M55 should at least run to 59th

But Bryant Park isn't really a stub, though?

[Ex696]

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

On top of it, it's usually stragglers left on the bus after it serves Downtown Brooklyn.... The masses in Downtown that are seeking service towards Cobble Hill, etc. essentially all gun for the B61

On the topic of the B61, it's only change, besides the obligatory stop removal, is the truncation to Bartel Pritchard Square. Is that a bad idea, despite being a short distance from its current terminus at 20th Street.

[B35 via Church]

19 hours ago, SubBus said:

What do you think of the proposed B27?  I think it's the modern version of the B75 that goes west towards Red Hook...(B77)

I would do more with it.... One solution would be to run it to WBP; especially being that they have the proposed B62 bypassing it.

6 hours ago, Ex696 said:

But Bryant Park isn't really a stub, though?

The M55 terminates on 44th/6th... Ever since they split up the penultimate rendition of the M5 (Washington Hgts - South Ferry) into the current M5 & the current M55, the NB M7 in Midtown has seen a noticeable spike.... Although 42nd st. in general is a major street, folks riding along 6th are not getting on/off 42nd to the tune you might think they would.... 57th st & Columbus Circle easily sees more passenger activity on the M5 & M7 than 42nd on the M5/M7/M55.... So the way they ended up splitting the southern portion (as in, the current M55) of that rendition of the M5 in question, is a stub.... The M55 would be far more useful if it ran up to 59th, then stubbing over there 2 blocks north of 42nd.....

6 hours ago, Ex696 said:

On the topic of the B61, it's only change, besides the obligatory stop removal, is the truncation to Bartel Pritchard Square. Is that a bad idea, despite being a short distance from its current terminus at 20th Street.

...to have that proposed B81 run past Pritchard Sq.  to cover the rest of PPW.

Regardless of that proposed B81 though, stopping the B61 dead at Pritchard Sq. is justified.... It's where the current B61 commonly tanks out.... The only problem I have with the proposed truncation is that it shouldn't terminate on the movie theater side of Pritchard Sq... It should terminate on the same side of Pritchard Sq,  to where riders can feasibly xfer to the B68....

[Ex696]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

especially being that they have the proposed B62 bypassing it.

Is there high ridership for the B62 there?

 

 

 

Also, is giving the Paerdegat branch of the B17 to the B60 good, alongside the bisection at Fulton Street? Or should a different route have been considered for a split instead?

[Q43LTD]

Seems to me like 9 St in Brooklyn is comparable to 42 St in Manhattan having "too much bus" so to speak

[B35 via Church]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:00 PM, Ex696 said:

Is there high ridership for the B62 there?

Moderate usage.

The point is that, with the proposed B62 bypassing WBP (due to racking up mileage to run up to the Astoria projects, among other things) & the proposed B53 turning off at Greenpoint av, there's nothing directly connecting WBP & LIC.... The irony here is that the lack of a connection from off the old B61 (Queens Plz - Red Hook) at WBP spurred complaints back then (hence, the current B62's diverting to serve WBP)... Doesn't help that the proposed B53 serves the waterfront, over directly serving commercial Bedford av. on top of it.....

[Ex696]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Doesn't help that the proposed B53 serves the waterfront, over directly serving commercial Bedford av. on top of it.....

True, but was the B32 necessary in the first place? I feel like the ridership is abysmal, the headways are horrid, and it ending near Court Square instead of Queens Plaza feels like it was set up fail.

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Ex696 said:

True, but was the B32 necessary in the first place? I feel like the ridership is abysmal, the headways are horrid, and it ending near Court Square instead of Queens Plaza feels like it was set up fail.

No, the waterfront didn't need its own route.... Astoria doesn't need a direct route to Downtown Brooklyn, either.....

For all I care, they can do away with the waterfront service; the weakest portion of the current B32 is the Williamsburg segment..... The Greenpoint segment gets its riders, as current B62 service/reliability is abysmal......

At the same time, I still say they're ignoring the need for connecting WBP - LIC, just as much as they're ignoring the need to connect Astoria - 21st st & QBP (both the proposed B62 & proposed Q69 bypass it)....  It's one thing to try to declutter an area (QBP), but if you're sending buses directly to areas where there's even less of a demand to (B62 from Astoria to Downtown Brooklyn & Q69 to Hunters Point Ferry, both skipping QBP in the process), it defeats the purpose.... The current Q101 goes directly to Manhattan, but I would honestly like to see how a 21st st. service running to Manhattan would fare.....

[Robert Spire]

44 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

No, the waterfront didn't need its own route.... Astoria doesn't need a direct route to Downtown Brooklyn, either.....

For all I care, they can do away with the waterfront service; the weakest portion of the current B32 is the Williamsburg segment..... The Greenpoint segment gets its riders, as current B62 service/reliability is abysmal......

At the same time, I still say they're ignoring the need for connecting WBP - LIC, just as much as they're ignoring the need to connect Astoria - 21st st & QBP (both the proposed B62 & proposed Q69 bypass it)....  It's one thing to try to declutter an area (QBP), but if you're sending buses directly to areas where there's even less of a demand to (B62 from Astoria to Downtown Brooklyn & Q69 to Hunters Point Ferry, both skipping QBP in the process), it defeats the purpose.... The current Q101 goes directly to Manhattan, but I would honestly like to see how a 21st st. service running to Manhattan would fare.....

We had a 21st Street service running to Manhattan, the QM22. When it started in 1988 (as an unsubsidized route along with today's QM24, QM25 and QM34 which were also unsubsidized) it had a 7:15, 7:30, 7:45, 8:00, 8:15, 8:35, 9:00 to 6th Avenue and a 7:20, 7:40, 8:00 trip to 3rd Avenue. Eventually trips were taken off the QM22 and given to the QM24 which by 1990 actually carried more riders than other subsidized express routes. When Triboro Coach got the subsidy in 1990 (the QM22 riders have the QM24 riders who fought to thank for that routes survival), they had to do a "spending reduction plan" and as part of that plan, they found out it was the one 6th Avenue and one 3rd Avenue that carried and that's how the QM22 got the schedule it did from 1990 until it was cut in 2010. The other issue is that Astoria has gentrified so much that the target market for a Manhattan to Astoria service either uses the subway or ubers/lyfts on the regular. Since uber and lyft came on the scene, the issue of taxi drivers refusing to serve Astoria is no longer an issue. 

[Ex696]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The current Q101 goes directly to Manhattan, but I would honestly like to see how a 21st st. service running to Manhattan would fare.....

Didn't the Q100's predecessor, the Q101R, go to Manhattan? Have the demographics changed enough when that run that ridership might be different?

[Q43LTD]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:06 PM, B35 via Church said:

For instance, the M55 should at least run to 59th (regardless if there's a multitude of routes running up/down 5th/6th).... Nobody on the Q18 cares that the Q67 continues down 69th st. to get to the .... LMFAO at the fact they stubbed the newest rendition of the Bx30 at Pelham Parkway (when riders are clearly still taking the Bee Line routes along Boston Rd. to get to Fordham Plaza)...

[checkmatechamp13]

11 hours ago, Ex696 said:

Didn't the Q100's predecessor, the Q101R, go to Manhattan? Have the demographics changed enough when that run that ridership might be different?

The Q100 is the exact same route as the Q101R. (I know they added the 21st Street stops at some point, maybe around the time they changed the number). It was the Q101 itself that went to Rikers and was eventually cut back to 19th & Hazen and a separate route created that connected the subway stations in Long Island City to Rikers Island (with the transfer point at 19th & Hazen for anyone who still needed to make connections from the Q101)

[B35 via Church]

12 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

We had a 21st Street service running to Manhattan, the QM22. When it started in 1988 (as an unsubsidized route along with today's QM24, QM25 and QM34 which were also unsubsidized) it had a 7:15, 7:30, 7:45, 8:00, 8:15, 8:35, 9:00 to 6th Avenue and a 7:20, 7:40, 8:00 trip to 3rd Avenue. Eventually trips were taken off the QM22 and given to the QM24 which by 1990 actually carried more riders than other subsidized express routes. When Triboro Coach got the subsidy in 1990 (the QM22 riders have the QM24 riders who fought to thank for that routes survival), they had to do a "spending reduction plan" and as part of that plan, they found out it was the one 6th Avenue and one 3rd Avenue that carried and that's how the QM22 got the schedule it did from 1990 until it was cut in 2010. The other issue is that Astoria has gentrified so much that the target market for a Manhattan to Astoria service either uses the subway or ubers/lyfts on the regular. Since uber and lyft came on the scene, the issue of taxi drivers refusing to serve Astoria is no longer an issue. 

I certainly remember the Qm22.... (I) should've been more specific, by stating that I wonder how a local route would fare.....

10 hours ago, Ex696 said:

Didn't the Q100's predecessor, the Q101R, go to Manhattan? Have the demographics changed enough when that run that ridership might be different?

The Q101R was carved from the old rendition of the Q101 that ran from Manhattan to Rikers Island... When the Q101R was created:

• the Q101 remained running to Manhattan, but got cut back to 19th av.
• it (the Q101R)  got a] bumped over to 21st st. & b] ran no further south than QBP

So in short, the Q101R never ran to Manhattan & the Q101 always ran along Steinway st.... Neither of the old routings fulfilled my inquiry/inquisitivity...

7 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

On 10/22/2023 at 6:06 PM, B35 via Church said:

**Quoted post**

Your reply to my post is blank.

[Ex696]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

So in short, the Q101R never ran to Manhattan & the Q101 always ran along Steinway st.... Neither of the old routings fulfilled my inquiry/inquisitivity...

Is there high turnover at 21st Street-Queensbridge that may justify a 21st Street route to Manhattan?

[Q43LTD]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:30 PM, B35 via Church said:

The M55 terminates on 44th/6th... Ever since they split up the penultimate rendition of the M5 (Washington Hgts - South Ferry) into the current M5 & the current M55, the NB M7 in Midtown has seen a noticeable spike.... Although 42nd st. in general is a major street, folks riding along 6th are not getting on/off 42nd to the tune you might think they would.... 57th st & Columbus Circle easily sees more passenger activity on the M5 & M7 than 42nd on the M5/M7/M55.... So the way they ended up splitting the southern portion (as in, the current M55) of that rendition of the M5 in question, is a stub.... The M55 would be far more useful if it ran up to 59th, then stubbing over there 2 blocks north of 42nd.....

They can't send the M55 to Columbus Circle or Central Park South. The plan was not to revive the M6

On 10/22/2023 at 6:06 PM, B35 via Church said:

For instance, the M55 should at least run to 59th (regardless if there's a multitude of routes running up/down 5th/6th).... Nobody on the Q18 cares that the Q67 continues down 69th st. to get to the .... LMFAO at the fact they stubbed the newest rendition of the Bx30 at Pelham Parkway (when riders are clearly still taking the Bee Line routes along Boston Rd. to get to Fordham Plaza)...

Funny about the Q18...wasn't supposed to be the 69 St route in the original redesign going to Middle Village? As far as the Bx30, it's like the 1984 revamp on crack. Either keep it at Norwood or send it to Fordham Plaza. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Q43LTD
Additional thoughts

[B35 via Church]

52 minutes ago, Ex696 said:

Is there high turnover at 21st Street-Queensbridge that may justify a 21st Street route to Manhattan?

SB direction is mostly dropoffs, NB direction is much more of a mix of boardings & dropoffs.... NB direction has higher turnover than the SB direction, but turnover in general is quite low, as again, SB direction is mostly dropoffs & the NB direction is more boardings than dropoffs.....

Usage in general is high, turnover is not (high)....

7 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

They can't send the M55 to Central Park South or Columbus Circle. The plan was not to revive the M6 lol kind of similar to what they did to the B37

They most certainly could.... They just don't want to run the M55 to Columbus Circle for that reason.... IDK how else to describe the M55, other than the fact that it just, well, exists.... That isn't to say nobody rides it, but I don't really see too many people specifically gunning for/relying on it; it's more or less just another bus (like, if it shows up, great, f*** it, I'll take it... That sort of thing).... The M5 GWB - South Ferry rendition of the route had more riders using it south of Greenwich Village, than is currently occurring/ongoing with the M55....

The situation with the B37 doesn't compare, though... The refraining of reviving the former B37 routing past Atlantic had to have been for performance related reasons; buses along Livingston even during rush hours carried air back when it ended with the B45.... It's not that they didn't fully revive the old B37 because they didn't want to have egg on their face (so to speak); as if to say Livingston was just bustling with ridership, thus, they should've left it alone... Lol....

22 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Funny about the Q18...wasn't supposed to be the 69 St route in the original redesign going to Middle Village?

As far as the Bx30, it's like the 1984 revamp on crack. Either keep it Norwood or send it to Fordham Plaza. 

- Not sure what you're asking there, TBH.... All I'm going to say here is that they had the proposed QT78 in the original draft running down 69th from Broadway to Metropolitan, serving Metropolitan av , to end at Fresh Pond rd... Of course, they also had this route going to Roosevelt Island

- Lol, yeah, basically.... I'd have just left the thing at Norwood.

[Ex696]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

the NB direction is more boardings than dropoffs.....

Why are there a decent amount of dropoffs NB there?

[Robert Spire]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I certainly remember the Qm22.... (I) should've been more specific, by stating that I wonder how a local route would fare.....

The Q101R was carved from the old rendition of the Q101 that ran from Manhattan to Rikers Island... When the Q101R was created:

• the Q101 remained running to Manhattan, but got cut back to 19th av.
• it (the Q101R)  got a] bumped over to 21st st. & b] ran no further south than QBP

So in short, the Q101R never ran to Manhattan & the Q101 always ran along Steinway st.... Neither of the old routings fulfilled my inquiry/inquisitivity...

Your reply to my post is blank.

The Q101R when started under Steinway Transit did run to Manhattan. It was Queens Surface in the early 1990s that got it cut back to Queens Plaza. 

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, Ex696 said:

Why are there a decent amount of dropoffs NB there?

1. You have the folks getting off for the projects themselves, and...
2. You have the folks xferring b/w the (Q66/69/100) & (the Roosevelt Island bound Q102 or the NB Q103)
   • For the RI bound Q102, a decent amount of people don't bother with the hassle of trying to get from Queens Plaza south to Queens Plaza north (whether via the QBP overpass, or actually crossing the street{s}) to catch it... They find it more feasible to take a bus that's (already) on the Queens Plaza south side (Q66/69/100) to 21st/41st & xfer to the RI bound Q102 there... Of the 3 routes, the Q69 sees the most NB dropoffs there, given that it backtracks to serve Court Sq (incl. the schoolkid usage at 21st/44th dr.as well).....

Few people bother walking from Queens Plaza to 21st/41st - even if they're on/along Queens Plaza north.