Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[xD4nn]

26 minutes ago, Fire Mountain said:

F***! Good point. Forgot about that for a second 🤦🏾‍♂️ 

 

The 73 and 75 would be ending at the actual intersection of 56th Avenue and 223rd Street where the 30 currently lays over and then spin around the block passing Cardozo while the 27 would continue inside the college loop along with the 78

The 75 shouldn’t even end at QCC. It should end at Little Neck. QCC is way too overserved for a community college and those Q30 short turns carry air at QCC outside of school dismissal hours.

[Fire Mountain]

53 minutes ago, xD4nn said:

The 75 shouldn’t even end at QCC. It should end at Little Neck. QCC is way too overserved for a community college and those Q30 short turns carry air at QCC outside of school dismissal hours.

I hear what you saying, but if they do that, where you think the 88 should end up? If you ask me, they can send the 88 to 230th Street instead of the 27 and then keep the 26 at Francis and Hollis Court while the 27 remains as it is. Back to the 75, traffic wise nothing will change since it lets up past Springfield on the service road 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Fire Mountain

[Q43LTD]

Just now, Fire Mountain said:

I hear what you saying, but if they do that, where you think the 88 should end up? If you ask me, they can send the 88 to 230th Street instead of the 27 and then keep the 26 at Francis and Hollis Court while the 27 remains as it is. Back to the 75, traffic wise nothing will change since it lets up past Springfield on the service road 

I would rather the 26 end at Oakland Gardens and not give it 24 hour service 

[Fire Mountain]

11 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

I would rather the 26 end at Oakland Gardens and not give it 24 hour service 

I prefer that too, however if they for some reason send the 75 to LN instead of the 88, that would be the next logical terminal for the 88 since it would stay on 73rd Avenue. 24 hours seems a drag. Maybe 5am - 12:30am?

[Fire Mountain]

And while we at it, in terms of Little Neck, who else besides me thinks the Q12 should just be extended to Horace Harding and LNP? Yea the 45 will run down LNP, but who cares bout that route let’s be real 🤷🏾‍♂️ lol but seriously, this could benefit for people working at the plaza over there (like me and a few others I know)

[Q43LTD]

17 minutes ago, Fire Mountain said:

I prefer that too, however if they for some reason send the 75 to LN instead of the 88, that would be the next logical terminal for the 88 since it would stay on 73rd Avenue. 24 hours seems a drag. Maybe 5am - 12:30am?

But, the does the 26 get extended west to College Point? Do the 27 and 88 stay as is? 

[Fire Mountain]

38 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

But, the does the 26 get extended west to College Point? Do the 27 and 88 stay as is? 

Yes. If they want to replace the 65 so bad, let’s bring the 26 up there. Could work. 27 stays as it is and the 88…. I don’t know…. We already have the 78 and 27 via Springfield so…..

Edited September 26, 2023 by Fire Mountain

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 hours ago, xD4nn said:

QV has nothing to trade out in favor of the Q27 and as transitman stated, artics will not do well in the QCC loop.

Why not? The artics have a tighter turning radius than standards.

[xD4nn]

6 hours ago, Fire Mountain said:

I hear what you saying, but if they do that, where you think the 88 should end up? If you ask me, they can send the 88 to 230th Street instead of the 27 and then keep the 26 at Francis and Hollis Court while the 27 remains as it is. Back to the 75, traffic wise nothing will change since it lets up past Springfield on the service road 

The 88 should just stay the same. No point of it being extended to LNP. Just makes everything worse

[xD4nn]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Why not? The artics have a tighter turning radius than standards.

Length still matters and I it's a very tight space...

[Cait Sith]

19 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

They wanted to streamline service in Richmond Hill and South Ozone Park. 

 

16 hours ago, Fire Mountain said:

If the 41 had better service along 111th avenue back in the day than it does now along 109th, then that was a stupid move they made….

Then again, the MTA’s known at times for making stupid route decisions

Speaking of stupid decisions, anyone else thinks the Q26 should just be extended up College Point (If they really wanna replace the 65 so bad), and the 27 should be left untouched? I was never really fond of the 26 going down to Cambria replacing the 27. Yes, they have the 78, but if they gonna have the 26 run local via Springfield with the 78, then shouldn’t they just leave the 27 running there instead? I just think THAT would make better sense

Streamlining was not the reason.

The Q41 was moved to 109th to straighten out the route. The routing to 111th southbound required buses to make more turns just to get to 111th, when buses can just go onto 109th to speed up trips. It also eliminated the need for Q41s to use 111th Street to get onto 109th.

The only difference between 109th and 111th is that 111th has less traffic lights to some extent.

Q41s are more often packed between Jamaica and Rockaway Blvd, with some ridership remaining between Rockaway Blvd and Howard Beach(not as much, but there's still a decent number of people). Very rarely is it ever that empty unless it bunches.

[Fire Mountain]

2 hours ago, xD4nn said:

The 88 should just stay the same. No point of it being extended to LNP. Just makes everything worse

Soooo….. have the 27, 78, AND the 88 go down Springfield?

[Q43LTD]

Isn't that overkill for Springfield? 

[IAlam]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:23 PM, Fire Mountain said:

Random thought: So I take the Q27 a lot (I’m actually on one right now as I type this), and I notice how the 27’s stay super frequent, so here’s my question? Who else thinks the 27 should just start running on articulated buses? I always see the 27’s bunched up during the day and not all of the time is it due to traffic.  It would be dope if they have the 27 start doing so once this redesign happens. If it stays in CP (which I hope it doesn’t), it could also help cause the 65s themselves always be crowded along CP Boulevard no matter the time of day 

Would say the same for the 17, but the only time that bus is crowded is between Main St and 188th and 30-40% of the time it be the kids getting out of school…

The Q27 including the proposed version is not a very artic-friendly route. Even with the narrow turning radius the rear doesn't follow the front and has a wider radius. It runs a greater risk of hitting something or being unable to maneuver around a double-parked car.

[Lawrence St]

33 minutes ago, IAlam said:

The Q27 including the proposed version is not a very artic-friendly route. Even with the narrow turning radius the rear doesn't follow the front and has a wider radius. It runs a greater risk of hitting something or being unable to maneuver around a double-parked car.

I think you vastly under-estimate how good artics are. There's an operator up here who takes an artic on the W30 route, with the tightest turns in all of the county and does it without breaking a sweat.

[danielhg121]

The 27 should get artics but it really can't handle them routing-wise. Even if the route was shifted to CS and they had a extra artics for the 27, they still wouldn't put artics on that route. Think about Holly Ave and 46 Ave, there are some areas where buses cannot even pass side by side and sometimes drivers will double park so if the bus operator needs to manuever around it, the overhang on the backend might sideswipe the vehicle. Going into QCC, it's alright tight going in there with 40 footers coming in and out but with artics, it'll need a bit more space. The 27 is also a very frequent line so you already know the union will be up in arms over the frequencies being slashed. 

[IAlam]

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I think you vastly under-estimate how good artics are. There's an operator up here who takes an artic on the W30 route, with the tightest turns in all of the county and does it without breaking a sweat.

Bee Line is a whole different system with different operating conditions the W30 isn't the Q27. The basically throw artics on any line because those buses have the same turning radius as a 35ft xcelsior. But that doesn't take into account the operational hazards. You're comparing apples to oranges The W30 goes down quiet streets without as much traffic or double-parked cars. The Q27 is dealing with a high-frequency bus, on roads with a decent amount of traffic and double-parked cars. 

[Fire Mountain]

1 hour ago, IAlam said:

The Q27 including the proposed version is not a very artic-friendly route. Even with the narrow turning radius the rear doesn't follow the front and has a wider radius. It runs a greater risk of hitting something or being unable to maneuver around a double-parked car.

 

54 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

The 27 should get artics but it really can't handle them routing-wise. Even if the route was shifted to CS and they had a extra artics for the 27, they still wouldn't put artics on that route. Think about Holly Ave and 46 Ave, there are some areas where buses cannot even pass side by side and sometimes drivers will double park so if the bus operator needs to manuever around it, the overhang on the backend might sideswipe the vehicle. Going into QCC, it's alright tight going in there with 40 footers coming in and out but with artics, it'll need a bit more space. The 27 is also a very frequent line so you already know the union will be up in arms over the frequencies being slashed. 

Ok but is it really necessary to keep having 2-3 27’s TOGETHER (Bunched up in other words) running every 10 minutes? That’s what keep happening during the day 🤷🏾‍♂️ I’m just saying, the MTA needs to fix that right there. And in the proposed routing, the 27 will be rerouted off holly avenue and travel along a wider Sanford avenue and then parsons (which isn’t as tight as holly avenue is, but somewhat close) and as far as the loop, fair point, but still. 

[Fire Mountain]

2 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Isn't that overkill for Springfield? 

That’s what I’m saying. It’s no point for the 27, 78, AND 88 to all go down Springfield….. 

Maybe have the 88 go to QCC instead with the 73 and the 75 go to Lil Neck 

[xD4nn]

28 minutes ago, Fire Mountain said:

That’s what I’m saying. It’s no point for the 27, 78, AND 88 to all go down Springfield….. 

Maybe have the 88 go to QCC instead with the 73 and the 75 go to Lil Neck 

Wouldn’t be a bad idea. If the Q73 does stay intact in the final plan I wonder what depot it would go to. Stengel seems like a logical answer.

[N6 Limited]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:37 AM, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, why go to the if it's currently cumbersome to do so - Especially when the is less out of the way for SE Queens residents than the is !

On top of that, if they're having all these red routes & purple routes in the SE Queens region drawn up with a purpose of getting to Jamaica area subways faster, why even consider the ?

What you're not opining on here, is to what extent would current commuters resort to passing up the , for the sake of avoiding Jamaica to get to the Lefferts line.... Sorry not sorry, but latent demand, trumps the notion of *possibilities* & *options*..... Throwing shit on a wall & hoping that it sticks isn't, or shouldn't be how we go about drumming up a bus network (not saying that you're exactly saying that, but I'm still making that point for the purpose of emphasis)..... Who are (as in, How many of) these people in SE Queens that's been vying for direct service to the over the years - and especially for how long......

I’m not saying that people are going to abandon the  in droves, but there will be riders using the bus for the connection the .

It’s about choices. Think about it this way, If I’m at Farmers and Linden. I can take the Q3 to the  , Q4 to the  or Q51 to the  .

If Im headed to Utica Ave from the same location and the  is not running , then I can go directly to the  . 

If I’m leaving QCM and the QBL is crap, I can take the Q52/53 to the Q51 with one transfer.

How are you determining latent demand for these routes?

 

On 9/25/2023 at 12:28 AM, Fire Mountain said:

Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking. I don’t know exactly where I would place the 51 as far as west of Merrick Boulevard, but I most definitely think it will benefit riders if it ran east to Green Acres. Maybe if they terminate it at the Rockaway Station, despite how ridership May be low towards that area. It will be a better fit than to gateway in all honesty 🤷🏾‍♂️

 It would be interesting if it was extended down Hook Creek Blvd to Green Acres. The extension to Gateway is to provide a trip generator and allow connections. Someone along the B6 may need to go to SE Queens, and vice versa. 

On 9/25/2023 at 9:41 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

3rd portion (Rockaway Blvd to Gateway Mall).

I honestly don’t think too many people from Queens are interested in going to Gateway as most people go to Queens Center Mall and if you are in SE you go to Green Arces. Along the western portion of the route I see the route primarily being used by employees from the mall and those who are traveling local along that part of the route with ridership tanking at Rockway Blvd for the most part. Once again outside of a handful of people and a few employees, I don’t see buses being packed going to Gateway and the Q8 is proof that Queens residents aren’t too crazy about Gateway.  

From the various posts others have made so far, I think there is too much focus on Gateway being the western terminal and if there will be high turnover there. The Q51 is proposed to be a crosstown route that has to terminate somewhere. That being said, Gateway is a trip generator, with a few connecting routes, and as such it will not be the end destination for everyone heading there.  The Q8 is too packed and slow to make the trip from Jamaica unless you really had to, so it may not be the best gauge for potential ridership. The Q51 would be a faster “Crosstown(SBS)” and connect to numerous routes along the way. Whenever I use the Belt Parkway, there are a lot of cars using Exit 15 (Erskine St) going to/from Queens, so there is some demand, even if by car/FHV.

 

 

 

 

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Fire Mountain said:

Ok but is it really necessary to keep having 2-3 27’s TOGETHER (Bunched up in other words) running every 10 minutes? That’s what keep happening during the day 🤷🏾‍♂️ I’m just saying, the MTA needs to fix that right there. And in the proposed routing, the 27 will be rerouted off holly avenue and travel along a wider Sanford avenue and then parsons (which isn’t as tight as holly avenue is, but somewhat close) and as far as the loop, fair point, but still. 

The thing about bunching on the Q27 in my experiences, is that even if you miss out on any of the bunched trips, you're never really waiting all that long for the next bus.... To a greater extent, that very phenomenon used to occur over here with the B35 before the artic conversion.... Not that it'd happen (for reasons already mentioned), but the Q27, if it were to be converted, I think a ton of service would be cut from it....

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

I’m not saying that people are going to abandon the  in droves, but there will be riders using the bus for the connection the .

It’s about choices. Think about it this way, If I’m at Farmers and Linden. I can take the Q3 to the  , Q4 to the  or Q51 to the  .

If Im headed to Utica Ave from the same location and the  is not running , then I can go directly to the  . 

If I’m leaving QCM and the QBL is crap, I can take the Q52/53 to the Q51 with one transfer.

How are you determining latent demand for these routes?

I understand what the concept of choices/options/possibilities entail, that's not the issue here.... Again, the issue here is one of scope; you are & have been going rather hard for this Q57 to the bit & judging by your prior replies on this issue, it is as if you're conveying there's going to be this significant change in rider habits of that region of Queens.... I don't expect you to give an exact figure or percentage, but it's something to be said when you appear to be hell bent on any facet of the current network waning to support anything being proposed in this redesign... There are most certainly current commuting patterns that are a pain in the ass, but the commute to the for a SE Queens resident isn't one of them.... Not even remotely.

To your question, I pay very close attention to (and take mental notes of) riders' complaints across multiple internet mediums (not just those on forums, but on blogs & on social media as well)... Not so much anymore, but I used to engage in e-mail correspondence with members of various community boards & those that would go to the meetings as well... Also, call this nosy or whatever, but I do hone in on people's transit related conversations while out & about when I'm on some bus or train....

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

From the various posts others have made so far, I think there is too much focus on Gateway being the western terminal and if there will be high turnover there. The Q51 is proposed to be a crosstown route that has to terminate somewhere. That being said, Gateway is a trip generator, with a few connecting routes, and as such it will not be the end destination for everyone heading there.  The Q8 is too packed and slow to make the trip from Jamaica unless you really had to, so it may not be the best gauge for potential ridership. The Q51 would be a faster “Crosstown(SBS)” and connect to numerous routes along the way. Whenever I use the Belt Parkway, there are a lot of cars using Exit 15 (Erskine St) going to/from Queens, so there is some demand, even if by car/FHV.

You don't get high turnover at a terminal; you mean high usage.... Anyway, I'd say it's merely a case of Queens patrons simply not trying to get to Gateway like that; especially enough to warrant a bus route running there from Cambria Heights.

[Q43LTD]

7 hours ago, xD4nn said:

Wouldn’t be a bad idea. If the Q73 does stay intact in the final plan I wonder what depot it would go to. Stengel seems like a logical answer.

Maybe Queens Village, but you can never predict the MTA 

[N6 Limited]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I understand what the concept of choices/options/possibilities entail, that's not the issue here.... Again, the issue here is one of scope; you are & have been going rather hard for this Q57 to the bit & judging by your prior replies on this issue, it is as if you're conveying there's going to be this significant change in rider habits of that region of Queens.... I don't expect you to give an exact figure or percentage, but it's something to be said when you appear to be hell bent on any facet of the current network waning to support anything being proposed in this redesign... There are most certainly current commuting patterns that are a pain in the ass, but the commute to the for a SE Queens resident isn't one of them.... Not even remotely.

To your question, I pay very close attention to (and take mental notes of) riders' complaints across multiple internet mediums (not just those on forums, but on blogs & on social media as well)... Not so much anymore, but I used to engage in e-mail correspondence with members of various community boards & those that would go to the meetings as well... Also, call this nosy or whatever, but I do hone in on people's transit related conversations while out & about when I'm on some bus or train....

You don't get high turnover at a terminal; you mean high usage.... Anyway, I'd say it's merely a case of Queens patrons simply not trying to get to Gateway like that; especially enough to warrant a bus route running there from Cambria Heights.

I’m just pointing out that routing matters and connections help, because the Q112 keeps being used as a reference and the routing sucks.

Example. N22 and N24 both go between Jamaica and Roosevelt Field. N22 gets more usage because it’s faster, less traffic signals , less idle time. 
The 57 will be more direct and connect to LIRR/Air Train/ Etc. We’ll see how they address Liberty Ave traffic.

[Cait Sith]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I’m just pointing out that routing matters and connections help, because the Q112 keeps being used as a reference and the routing sucks.

Example. N22 and N24 both go between Jamaica and Roosevelt Field. N22 gets more usage because it’s faster, less traffic signals , less idle time. 
The 57 will be more direct and connect to LIRR/Air Train/ Etc. We’ll see how they address Liberty Ave traffic.