BREAKING: MTA will test platform doors at Times Sq, 3rd Av & Suphtin Blvd

[Wallyhorse]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:38 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

The first time I encountered the problem was back in the sixties when Alexander’s opened the store at 58th and Lexington. I worked there after school and one night I decided to take the train to Union Square to transfer to my Brighton line. Train pulled in and nothing happened at first. Finally the C/R and the M/M walked the platform keying open certain doors. Very time consuming. From that time on I’d take the BMT exclusively from 59th St. When I got to RTO in the early eighties and worked Lexington Avenue the procedure was still done that way. Eventually we were told to bypass the stop completely, especially during rush hours, when any delay would cause major congestion on the southbound trains, local and express. Remember that we’re talking about ancient equipment. There used to be gap fillers at the southern ends of the Brooklyn Bridge station, too. That’s before my time in RTO. That’s my concern about platform screen doors in general. The agency is broke. Why add any new expense to the bottom line when the doors weren’t needed for the last 118 years or so ? My take. Carry on.

You also didn't have pols who wanted to look good by forcing this on the MTA with no understanding why this might not work and there would be unintended consequences. 

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

About time. This is super long overdue. MTA, out of all cities, needs to secure their tracks and tunnels as best as possible. 

 

The PDF document detailing each station with the platform doors being feasible or not is absolute BS. They said only 128 out of the 472 stations are feasibile, but that number can legitimately rise to at least 321 over time. 

 

There are legit stations with columns that are too close to the edge of platform to install a door, and some stations are too narrow in certain parts for you to install the doors in that area. 

 

Every station in NYC can receive platform barriers of some sort.

There are three types of barriers that can be used across the different MTA stations.

1. Full height platform doors. 

2. Half height platform gates. 

3. Vertical Rising Rope Barriers 

In a perfect MTA world, you'd install full height in as many stations as possible, but with the MTA let's just assume half height is the only option with their conductor operations. 

 

All underground stations and outdoor stations that are not elevated would receive platform gates as long as the columns are not too close to the end of the platform.

All elevated structures without structural integrity issues can receive the lightweight vertical rising rope barriers. 

 

Here's videos of Paris metro, an old metro system like NYC that's stepping their game up. They use platform doors on the entirety of three lines now, two of which are fully automated. 

Here's Line 1 with the half height platform gates: 

Here's Line 14 with the full height platform doors :

 

 

 

Now I'm curious, at stations like Newkirk Plaza on the , can you install platform gates in the cars #2-9 platform positions, and leave the car #1, car #10 platform area without a barrier? When Line 4 was getting its platform doors installed, there were various times where only half of the station had the doors up and trains were running normal operations, as seen below : 

 

 

 

 

[Eric B]

looks nice. But people and things (perhaps deliberately some times) would be getting caught in the space between the train and the screen doors! As much as I think we need them; I don't see how it could ever work!

Edited March 20, 2022 by Eric B

[GojiMet86]

51 minutes ago, Eric B said:

looks nice. But people and things (perhaps deliberately some times) would be getting caught in the space between the train and the screen doors! As much as I think we need them; I don't see how it could ever work!

People and things (perhaps deliberately some times) end up in our subway tracks on the open platforms we have!

Platform doors work fine in dozens upon dozens of other systems in the world. China has a ton of them, and all of those systems are overcrowded. Yet those incidents are very rare. Same in Japan. Same in Paris, which managed to retrofit its oldest line.

Deaths due to screen doors occur much less than what we have had in NY.

How many people have died or gotten injured in American airport shuttles? I can't ever recall hearing about such an incident at JFK.

It can work.

[R32 3838]

It can work when done right. Why do platform doors in a station that needs rehab (Supthin/Archer)

 

People in this community tend to lack common sense and not think.

 

All of the decisions   is making are due to political pressure.

We have stations and elevated structures falling apart, That should be more of the focus vs. platform screen doors.

[R10 2952]

38 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

It can work when done right. Why do platform doors in a station that needs rehab (Supthin/Archer)

People in this community tend to lack common sense and not think.

All of the decisions   is making are due to political pressure.

We have stations and elevated structures falling apart, That should be more of the focus vs. platform screen doors.

Thank you for bringing up the last two points.  Some people on these boards get so hung up on extraneous bells and whistles that they don't think about the bigger priorities.  The other day in the news a woman's car got hit by a piece of metal coming off an el.

All these structures in disrepair, but we're supposed to jump for joy at the prospect of idiot-proofing the system with fiberglass screens? Too many folks around here see a falling tree without seeing the entire damn forest fire. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by R10 2952

[GojiMet86]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Thank you for bringing up the last two points.  Some people on these boards get so hung up on extraneous bells and whistles that they don't think about the bigger priorities.  The other day in the news a woman's car got hit by a piece of metal coming off an el.

All these structures in disrepair, but we're supposed to jump for joy at the prospect of idiot-proofing the system with fiberglass screens? Too many folks around here see a falling tree without seeing the entire damn forest fire. 

I don't know if you've learned this, but not everything in life is a binary decision. You can have both infrastructure repairs and platform screen doors. Life is never Black and White. You can have both.

Also, preventing people from getting shoved off platforms or killing themselves throughout the years is not just bells and whistles. Nor is that "idiot" proofing. Or are you really implying that all these victims are complete buffons? Because it sounds like that to me...

[R10 2952]

2 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

I don't know if you've learned this, but not everything in life is a binary decision. You can have both infrastructure repairs and platform screen doors. Life is never Black and White. You can have both.

Also, preventing people from getting shoved off platforms or killing themselves throughout the years is not just bells and whistles. Nor is that "idiot" proofing. Or are you really implying that all these victims are complete buffons? Because it sounds like that to me...

Not with this agency you can't; I've been around long enough to see that.  With their shitty maintenance practices, screen doors will just become another thing that malfunctions and messes up travel.

As to your second point, it can sound however you want it to; platform screen doors are not going to give the pushers and the jumpers the mental health intervention they need.  That's the real solution needed.  Otherwise, the mentally deficient will just go somewhere else- they'll jump off buildings, or they'll push people in front of buses and trucks.

And then where does the slippery slope lead? Do we put up barricades on every curbside? Do we start mandating helmets for pedestrians? Do we replace all glass with plastic, and all metal utensils with wood?

Good intentions are cobblestones on the road to nowhere.  Accepting certain risks is the price we pay for living in a society.

Edited March 21, 2022 by R10 2952

[GojiMet86]

1 minute ago, R10 2952 said:

Not with this agency you can't; I've been around long enough to see that.  With their shitty maintenance practices, screen doors will just become another thing that malfunctions and messes up travel.

As to your second point, it can sound however you want it to; platform screen doors are not going to give the pushers and the jumpers the mental health intervention they need.  That's the real solution needed.  Otherwise, the mentally deficient will just go somewhere else- they'll jump off buildings, or they'll push people in front of buses and trucks.

And then where does the slippery slope lead? Do we put up barricades on every curbside? Do we start mandating helmets for pedestrians? Do we replace all glass with plastic, and all metal utensils with wood?

Good intentions are the paving blocks on the road to nowhere. 

 

No mention of the mental health of the train operators who have to live with the trauma of having run over a person, excuse me, an "idiot" in your terms, who was shoved into the tracks?

[Deucey]

37 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

And then where does the slippery slope lead? Do we put up barricades on every curbside?

Vegas did that at a few intersections on the Strip and built bridges to reduce car vs people collisions.

Transit systems around the world put up PSDs to reduce passenger track incursions. Dunno why anyone would be against anything that would reduce delays from someone getting hit by a train, but you do you.

[GojiMet86]

1 minute ago, Deucey said:

Vegas did that at a few intersections on the Strip and built bridges to reduce car vs people collisions.

Transit systems around the world put up PSDs to reduce passenger track incursions. Dunno why anyone would be against anything that would reduce delays from someone getting hit by a train, but you do you.

90+ years of people ending up in the tracks, intentional or not, delaying trains, traumatizing workers, etc. If the MTA does wind up doing it, it's fine. More like transit fans getting upset they may not get their photos. As a guy with a big Flickr collection, I'm okay with that.

If it doesn't do it, then it doesn't do it. But any legit reason not to do it should be due to actual physical limitations, not some exaggerated NIMBY-esque libertarian complaint.

About LV, the bridges are really there because the intersections are too busy, wide, and complicated. It's an unfortunate failure of urban planning that cars are over-prioritized over transit, biking, and walking.

[R10 2952]

39 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

No mention of the mental health of the train operators who have to live with the trauma of having run over a person, excuse me, an "idiot" in your terms, who was shoved into the tracks?

So you're just going to twist my words now, to fit your narrative?

 

3 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

90+ years of people ending up in the tracks, intentional or not, delaying trains, traumatizing workers, etc. If the MTA does wind up doing it, it's fine. More like transit fans getting upset they may not get their photos. As a guy with a big Flickr collection, I'm okay with that.

If it doesn't do it, then it doesn't do it. But any legit reason not to do it should be due to actual physical limitations, not some exaggerated NIMBY-esque libertarian complaint.

About LV, the bridges are really there because the intersections are too busy, wide, and complicated. It's an unfortunate failure of urban planning that cars are over-prioritized over transit, biking, and walking.

 

You know what, I don't need people pigeonholing me into categories that I've never even been in.  Fact is, I did raise a legitimate issue about platform screen doors a few pages back:

Quote

Aside from issues that were already mentioned in years past each time platform screen doors have been brought up on these boards, I'll raise another one.  Fire.  Last place I would want to be in that scenario is-

a) a train in the station that's on fire and can't be evacuated because some extraneous wall-to-wall glass doors are stuck and won't open.

b)  a fire on the platform blocking exits and passengers can't be evacuated for the same reason as above.

A safety issue, and a liability issue.  Food for thought. 

But if these points somehow make me a NIMBY, a libertarian, or a railfan of all things, then I guess we have nothing to discuss...

 

34 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Vegas did that at a few intersections on the Strip and built bridges to reduce car vs people collisions.

Transit systems around the world put up PSDs to reduce passenger track incursions. Dunno why anyone would be against anything that would reduce delays from someone getting hit by a train, but you do you.

We can disagree about things, but there's no need to be passive-agressive about it.

 

God forbid anyone should have a contrary opinion around here.

[R32 3838]

17 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

90+ years of people ending up in the tracks, intentional or not, delaying trains, traumatizing workers, etc. If the MTA does wind up doing it, it's fine. More like transit fans getting upset they may not get their photos. As a guy with a big Flickr collection, I'm okay with that.

If it doesn't do it, then it doesn't do it. But any legit reason not to do it should be due to actual physical limitations, not some exaggerated NIMBY-esque libertarian complaint.

About LV, the bridges are really there because the intersections are too busy, wide, and complicated. It's an unfortunate failure of urban planning that cars are over-prioritized over transit, biking, and walking.

 

In some cases yeah that's true but not all transit fans think like that. My issue is how it's being done. Instead of investing in more of a standardized way of doing things, They half ass it. I have no issue with the platform doors, My issue is the fact that this is more important than station rehabs. Supthin - Archer looks like a hell hole and other stations are in need of a need a rehab. Times sq on the is the only renovated station getting platform doors.

 

All of this is just putting lipstick on a pig instead of doing it right.

[MHV9218]

Generally speaking, I don't really understand why this is an essential problem now as opposed to any other point in the subway's history. Nothing against PSDs, but seems like a better use of money would be investing in social services and policing that would together reduce the number of people ending up on the tracks in the first place.

Edited March 21, 2022 by MHV9218

[GojiMet86]

1 minute ago, R10 2952 said:

So you're just going to twist my words now, to fit your narrative?

How many ways are there of twisting "idiot-proofing"? For starters, maybe don't exaggerate and write "idiot-proofing" when not all people winding up on the tracks are idiots.

 

1 minute ago, R10 2952 said:

You know what, I don't need people pigeonholing me into categories that I've never even been in.  Fact is, I did raise a legitimate issue about platform screen doors a few pages back:

But if these points somehow make me a NIMBY, a libertarian, or a railfan of all things, then I guess we have nothing to discuss...

This technology is used in dozens upon dozens of transit systems, foreign and domestic, yet you seem to think fire safety just, whoops, slipped hundreds of thousands of people's minds? Do you really think people are that daft about this issue? You don't think people around the world have come up with fire codes, regulations, and enforcements for this?

 

17 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

In some cases yeah that's true but not all transit fans think like that. My issue is how it's being done. Instead of investing in more of a standardized way of doing things, They half ass it. I have no issue with the platform doors, My issue is the fact that this is more important than station rehabs. Supthin - Archer looks like a hell hole and other stations are in need of a need a rehab. Times sq on the is the only renovated station getting platform doors.

All of this is just putting lipstick on a pig instead of doing it right.

Getting hung up on why one specific station hasn't gotten one does not mean it doesn't happen.

All signs point to the contrary. Station rehabs have been prioritized over the years, well-done or half-assed, with platform doors being dismissed time and time again until now.

 

22 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Generally speaking, I don't really understand why this is an essential problem now as opposed to any other point in the subway's history. Nothing against PSDs, but seems like a better use of money would be investing in social services and policing that would together reduce the number of people ending up on the tracks in the first place.

That should come out of the city's or state's pocket, not the MTA. It's not the transit authority's responsibility for treating mental illness.

[MHV9218]

9 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

That should come out of the city's or state's pocket, not the MTA. It's not the transit authority's responsibility for treating mental illness.

This is true, but the flip side of the same coin is that it shouldn't necessarily be the Transit Authority's responsibility for treating the consequences of mental illness, which is sort of what we're talking about here. As a large-scale investment you'd have a hard time convincing me it was a better, more equitable, or more productive use of money than installing ADA access, improving frequencies, repairing stations, etc. It's a moot point given how limited the scope of possible PSD stations is, according to that report (basically everything with platform-edge columns out of the running, so the whole early IRT, and then everything elevated for weight), but sort of an interesting question to consider.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

It can work when done right. Why do platform doors in a station that needs rehab (Supthin/Archer)

People in this community tend to lack common sense and not think.

All of the decisions   is making are due to political pressure.

We have stations and elevated structures falling apart, That should be more of the focus vs. platform screen doors.

Just because we support platform doors doesn't mean we support the methodology in the way the MTA is going about it. Obviously it would make sense to install platform doors at stations that have been rehabbed and modernized to accommodate the doors. The focus is still infrastructure improvements, but this is the perfect time to implement future technologies so that when future modernizing takes place, platform doors will be in the drawing board.

37 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

This technology is used in dozens upon dozens of transit systems, foreign and domestic, yet you seem to think fire safety just, whoops, slipped hundreds of thousands of people's minds? Do you really think people are that daft about this issue? You don't think people around the world have come up with fire codes, regulations, and enforcements for this?

 

That's really the logic...they really think NYC is the only place with a subway system. They think other transit systems are daft about the issue, don't have fire codes, regulations or no type of enforcement.

Its just a stubborn mindset, and its the exact reason why the MTA is the way it is today.

[GojiMet86]

48 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

This is true, but the flip side of the same coin is that it shouldn't necessarily be the Transit Authority's responsibility for treating the consequences of mental illness, which is sort of what we're talking about here. As a large-scale investment you'd have a hard time convincing me it was a better, more equitable, or more productive use of money than installing ADA access, improving frequencies, repairing stations, etc. It's a moot point given how limited the scope of possible PSD stations is, according to that report (basically everything with platform-edge columns out of the running, so the whole early IRT, and then everything elevated for weight), but sort of an interesting question to consider.

This isn't just a mental health or a crime thing. People do sometimes collapse near the edge for health reasons. There would be significantly less garbage in the tracks, reducing the risk of fires. No shopping carts to screw up sevice. Restricted access to prevent people from entering places they aren't supposed to be in. People would be breathing less rail shavings, which is still a thing. And if overcrowding ever returns, that would dramatically reduce 12-9s. It's not a coincidence that for years the Lexington line saw higher 12-9s than other lines.

This is the same MTA that said a Rockaway revival would be $10 billion, only for someone to dig a little deeper and say it could cost $3B. It's the same MTA that refuses to open closed exits for fear of activating ADA requirements. It's the same MTA that said no to gangways, now the R211s will have them. It takes political pressure (or bullying) to force it to do something. I take the report with a pinch of salt.

It was supposed to try PSDs on the shuttle in 2016 at Times Square, then it was stopped. Then there was supposed to be that pilot on the back in 2017, but it was postponed.

This is the classic MTA M.O. It says it can't be done, until something forces its hand. Then viola, it's there and they get to celebrate their "innovation".

If NYC is ever able to build a completely new subway line, then it really should have PSDs. There wouldn't be an excuse then.