BREAKING: MTA will test platform doors at Times Sq, 3rd Av & Suphtin Blvd

[Lawrence St]

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-to-pilot-platform-doors-at-three-stations/?fbclid=IwAR0IjqAMBczRWnENeI39zxZ8awOjy07LG05HcYw_SWNXBKif8S7hpqBlHhc
 

I guess MTA finally gave in to the pressure.

[paulrivera]

Sutphin and Archer makes the most sense, since there's no support beam to hang onto and it's a wide platform.

Also, note that all three of these stations are on lines that have CBTC already enabled.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

Sutphin and Archer makes the most sense, since there's no support beam to hang onto and it's a wide platform.

Also, note that all three of these stations are on lines that have CBTC already enabled.

The does not have CBTC enabled north of 71st St, unless they expanded the program limits?

[Vulturious]

17 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

Sutphin and Archer makes the most sense, since there's no support beam to hang onto and it's a wide platform.

Also, note that all three of these stations are on lines that have CBTC already enabled.

The does not have CBTC enabled north of 71st St, unless they expanded the program limits?

I'm gonna go and phrase that better (probably):

All three of these stations are lines with only one type of train car on each line. 

Obviously the  has R143's, but they're relatively the same.

[4 via Mosholu]

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-to-pilot-platform-doors-at-three-stations/?fbclid=IwAR0IjqAMBczRWnENeI39zxZ8awOjy07LG05HcYw_SWNXBKif8S7hpqBlHhc
 

I guess MTA finally gave in to the pressure.

They do not need Platform Screen Doors; they really need stainless steel barriers that would fit in conjunction with the doors, beginning with the Interborough. To be honest, I would have waited a bit longer for the Independent and Brooklyn Manhattan Transit to become fully New Tech before even thinking about these types of security measures.

[Vulturious]

56 minutes ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

They do not need Platform Screen Doors; they really need stainless steel barriers that would fit in conjunction with the doors, beginning with the Interborough. To be honest, I would have waited a bit longer for the Independent and Brooklyn Manhattan Transit to become fully New Tech before even thinking about these types of security measures.

It's not even just B division lines, A division lines couldn't get them anyway because of the door positions being different on the R62/A and R142/A. Hopefully, if the MTA were to expand upon the R211 order, maybe all the old tech won't be around to interfere. Although, it's definitely going to take a while until we see anything done for both, even longer for A division.

[LGA Link N Train]

On 2/23/2022 at 1:19 PM, Lawrence St said:

The does not have CBTC enabled north of 71st St, unless they expanded the program limits?

Some company called Mitsubishi Electric won a bid to install CBTC Ground Equipment between Union Turnpike and Jamaica-179th. I assume the Archer Avenue Branch would be included in this though thats a different topic for a different day, here if you want to read it:

https://railf.jp/news/2022/02/22/010000.html

 

Now in regards to PSD's, I guess they make sense for these 3 stations. The  and are entirely CBTC while the is still in the process of getting CBTC throughout its line and all run NTT's. The real question would be is if these trains get half height or full height PSD's. Either way, all of this seems to be reactive in typical fashion.

[Lex]

30 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Some company called Mitsubishi Electric won a bid to install CBTC Ground Equipment between Union Turnpike and Jamaica-179th. I assume the Archer Avenue Branch would be included in this though thats a different topic for a different day, here if you want to read it:

https://railf.jp/news/2022/02/22/010000.html

 

Now in regards to PSD's, I guess they make sense for these 3 stations. The  and are entirely CBTC while the is still in the process of getting CBTC throughout its line and all run NTT's. The real question would be is if these trains get half height or full height PSD's. Either way, all of this seems to be reactive in typical fashion.

I guess you're not familiar with the propulsion systems of the railroads' rolling stock starting from the M7s...

[LGA Link N Train]

5 minutes ago, Lex said:

I guess you're not familiar with the propulsion systems of the railroads' rolling stock starting from the M7s...

I don't pay too much attention to propulsion systems from the railroad side of things so no.

[Trainmaster5]

I have a question for you riders of the southbound Lexington Avenue service. Have any of you been aboard a  ,  or  train when there’s been a gap filler problem at Union Square ? We were instructed to bypass the station in that case and proceed to the next station when that happened in the latter part of my career. Originally we manually keyed open doors where it was safe to do so. I wonder what the procedure would be for today’s train crews ? Imagine being late for work or a flight and your train doesn’t stop? I wonder how that’s going to resolved ? Idle speculation. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I have a question for you riders of the southbound Lexington Avenue service. Have any of you been aboard a  ,  or  train when there’s been a gap filler problem at Union Square ? We were instructed to bypass the station in that case and proceed to the next station when that happened in the latter part of my career. Originally we manually keyed open doors where it was safe to do so. I wonder what the procedure would be for today’s train crews ? Imagine being late for work or a flight and your train doesn’t stop? I wonder how that’s going to resolved ? Idle speculation. Carry on.

I've used that station many times, and while there have been slight delays with the gap fillers deploying, they've never been an issue for me so far.

[Lex]

18 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've used that station many times, and while there have been slight delays with the gap fillers deploying, they've never been an issue for me so far.

Maybe, but there were multiple instances of failure even during the years I frequented that station (not when I specifically went to that station, but that was by sheer luck).

[Trainmaster5]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've used that station many times, and while there have been slight delays with the gap fillers deploying, they've never been an issue for me so far.

Count yourself among the lucky ones. At least they deployed in your experience. I’m talking about cases when they don’t deploy, period. Remember that we’re talking about electrical components functioning properly in a steel dust, unclean environment. I haven’t looked at the roadbed in the areas where they want to install the screen doors but with the history of preventive maintenance I’ve seen during my career I have my doubts about the viability of the project. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[darkstar8983]

33 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've used that station many times, and while there have been slight delays with the gap fillers deploying, they've never been an issue for me so far.

yes - if they don't deploy or get stuck, one of two things happen:

1. If the gap fillers don't extend outwards to meet the train, the trains must skip Union Square and proceed to the next southbound station.

2. If the gap fillers do not retract as the train exits, the train cannot move and might damage the gap fillers, forcing reroutes on southbound Lexington service (either  train to the local track from Union Square to Brooklyn Bridge or the  express between these two stations, with the  rerouted southbound via 7 Av). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

Maybe, but there were multiple instances of failure even during the years I frequented that station (not when I specifically went to that station, but that was by sheer luck).

And what time period was this? I actually used to frequent that station a lot, even after I stopped working in Chelsea because I'd go down there for lunch. 

47 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

yes - if they don't deploy or get stuck, one of two things happen:

1. If the gap fillers don't extend outwards to meet the train, the trains must skip Union Square and proceed to the next southbound station.

2. If the gap fillers do not retract as the train exits, the train cannot move and might damage the gap fillers, forcing reroutes on southbound Lexington service (either  train to the local track from Union Square to Brooklyn Bridge or the  express between these two stations, with the  rerouted southbound via 7 Av). 

Yes, I'm well aware...

55 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Count yourself among the lucky ones. At least they deployed in your experience. I’m talking about cases when they don’t deploy, period. Remember that we’re talking about electrical components functioning properly in a steel dust, unclean environment. I haven’t looked at the roadbed in the areas where they want to install the screen doors but with the history of preventive maintenance I’ve seen during my career I have my doubts about the viability of the project. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Have there been lots of issues with it in the last several years? I use that station occasionally now, but when I worked in Chelsea, that was my station often.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And what time period was this? I actually used to frequent that station a lot, even after I stopped working in Chelsea because I'd go down there for lunch. 

This was definitely between September 2011 and June 2016.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

This was definitely between September 2011 and June 2016.

Which explains why I never had an issue. I worked in that area for a few years, then started in Midtown and stopped coming down for lunch regularly before then. Makes sense that there would be issues. Those things look ancient.

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

This was definitely between September 2011 and June 2016.

The first time I encountered the problem was back in the sixties when Alexander’s opened the store at 58th and Lexington. I worked there after school and one night I decided to take the train to Union Square to transfer to my Brighton line. Train pulled in and nothing happened at first. Finally the C/R and the M/M walked the platform keying open certain doors. Very time consuming. From that time on I’d take the BMT exclusively from 59th St. When I got to RTO in the early eighties and worked Lexington Avenue the procedure was still done that way. Eventually we were told to bypass the stop completely, especially during rush hours, when any delay would cause major congestion on the southbound trains, local and express. Remember that we’re talking about ancient equipment. There used to be gap fillers at the southern ends of the Brooklyn Bridge station, too. That’s before my time in RTO. That’s my concern about platform screen doors in general. The agency is broke. Why add any new expense to the bottom line when the doors weren’t needed for the last 118 years or so ? My take. Carry on.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 2/27/2022 at 5:56 PM, darkstar8983 said:

yes - if they don't deploy or get stuck, one of two things happen:

1. If the gap fillers don't extend outwards to meet the train, the trains must skip Union Square and proceed to the next southbound station.

2. If the gap fillers do not retract as the train exits, the train cannot move and might damage the gap fillers, forcing reroutes on southbound Lexington service (either  train to the local track from Union Square to Brooklyn Bridge or the  express between these two stations, with the  rerouted southbound via 7 Av). 

I found myself in situation #1 a few times in 2016 or 17. Lucky for me I happened to be getting off at the next southbound station (Brooklyn Bridge).

Now, as for PSD’s, I can see doing them at the three pilot stations because only one type of subway car runs the lines that use those three stations (well, the  uses some R160s in addition to R143s, but both classes have identical door arrangements). But what are they going to do for the lines with two or more cars with different door arrangements? The R143/160/179 cars have a different side door arrangement from the R46 and 68 cars and the R211s will have wider doors than the other cars. The R62 class have different door arrangements from the R142/188 cars. With PSD’s, you’ve got to be sure they line up correctly with the train’s doors because if they don’t, then the passengers on the train will be trapped and those on the platform won’t be able to board the train. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[darkstar8983]

15 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I found myself in situation #1 a few times in 2016 or 17. Lucky for me I happened to be getting off at the next southbound station (Brooklyn Bridge).

Now, as for PSD’s, I can see doing them at the three pilot stations because only one type of subway car runs the lines that use those three stations (well, the  uses some R160s in addition to R143s, but both classes have identical door arrangements). But what are they going to do for the lines with two or more cars with different door arrangements? The R143/160/179 cars have a different side door arrangement from the R46 and 68 cars and the R211s will have wider doors than the other cars. The R62 class have different door arrangements from the R142/188 cars. With PSD’s, you’ve got to be sure they line up correctly with the train’s doors because if they don’t, then the passengers on the train will be trapped and those on the platform won’t be able to board the train. 

The R211s having wider doors shouldn't be a problem because they will be positioned at thee same locations as the doors on the R143s, R160s, and R179s. Doors will just be  4 inches wider from the center of the doors, which will probably accommodate the screen doors since most likely platform screen doors are supposed to be wider than subway train doors by custom to account for slight deviations in stopping patterns for trains.

[bobtehpanda]

On 2/23/2022 at 4:22 PM, Vulturious said:

It's not even just B division lines, A division lines couldn't get them anyway because of the door positions being different on the R62/A and R142/A. Hopefully, if the MTA were to expand upon the R211 order, maybe all the old tech won't be around to interfere. Although, it's definitely going to take a while until we see anything done for both, even longer for A division.

Vertical PSDs exist for different door configurations:

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by bobtehpanda

[Vulturious]

4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Vertical PSDs exist for different door configurations:

 

I'm not ruling out the possibility of Vertical doors, I'm just saying the chances of the MTA ever going for that idea is kind of low. Let's remember that all three stations that are getting PSD's are lines that are uniformed with one type of train (technically the  has two train fleets, but they're the same exact door position with each other). Let's also remember that the R211's are coming in even with the doors being wider, they're the in same positions as other NTT 60 footers. The R68/A's are probably going to stick around, but if there's a chance the MTA wants to streamline everything to CBTC and expand upon the order, the R211's would help with the whole issue of certain non-compatible trains running around. There's also the R262's that are going to replace the R62/A's so that wouldn't be much of an issue for A division. 

[Lawrence St]

On 2/27/2022 at 5:42 PM, Lex said:

Maybe, but there were multiple instances of failure even during the years I frequented that station (not when I specifically went to that station, but that was by sheer luck).

 

On 2/27/2022 at 5:09 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

I have a question for you riders of the southbound Lexington Avenue service. Have any of you been aboard a  ,  or  train when there’s been a gap filler problem at Union Square ? We were instructed to bypass the station in that case and proceed to the next station when that happened in the latter part of my career. Originally we manually keyed open doors where it was safe to do so. I wonder what the procedure would be for today’s train crews ? Imagine being late for work or a flight and your train doesn’t stop? I wonder how that’s going to resolved ? Idle speculation. Carry on.

That was a major problem at the original South Ferry. At least 4 times have the fillers had a problem at South Ferry where we had to loop around and get off at Rector St.

[R10 2952]

Aside from issues that were already mentioned in years past each time platform screen doors have been brought up on these boards, I'll raise another one.  Fire.  Last place I would want to be in that scenario is-

a) a train in the station that's on fire and can't be evacuated because some extraneous wall-to-wall glass doors are stuck and won't open.

b)  a fire on the platform blocking exits and passengers can't be evacuated for the same reason as above.

 

A safety issue, and a liability issue.  Food for thought. 

[rbrome]

15 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Aside from issues that were already mentioned in years past each time platform screen doors have been brought up on these boards, I'll raise another one.  Fire.  Last place I would want to be in that scenario is-

a) a train in the station that's on fire and can't be evacuated because some extraneous wall-to-wall glass doors are stuck and won't open.

b)  a fire on the platform blocking exits and passengers can't be evacuated for the same reason as above.

 

A safety issue, and a liability issue.  Food for thought. 

This is a solved problem with PSDs. All PSDs I have seen around the world have crash bars on the track side just like any emergency exit door, that let the doors swing open. Usually all panels have this, even ones that are usually stationary (the non-sliding parts). You can see this if you look carefully at the PSDs on the AirTrains here in NYC. 

As for escaping from platform to tracks, that's generally not something you want to happen. The tracks are always a dangerous place for people. I don't believe the tracks are currently considered a viable "emergency exit" for fire safety purposes, so in that sense there will be no change there. Although I'm sure PSDs could be fitted with emergency door releases on the platform side if that were deemed necessary. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by rbrome