Suffolk County Draft Plan Released

[The TransitMan]

16 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Back in the day, what were ridership patterns like on the S20 (in its Babylon - Sunrise Mall form)? Was it primarily picking up/dropping off riders coming to/from Sunrise Mall, or was there some turnover?

What I'm particularly interested in is transfer activity between the S1 and S20 (I know it isn't quite a fair comparison since Montauk Highway isn't that close to the areas up by Oak Street and John Street, but just to get an idea of how many people in that general area are seeking access to NY-110). Most of the other connections which were previously available at Sunrise Mall are now available at Amityville LIRR station, but the one big benefit at Amityville (for a Montauk Highway route) is the connection to NY-110, which was available on the S20, but not the N19. 

Well at least they're using regular buses on the 10. Saw #7017 on the 10 this morning. Eh, it's Sunday I know but still I was expecting an ARBOC?

[The TransitMan]

So I was in Riverhead last night while waiting for the 9:32 train to Ronkonkoma and I must say that seeing buses after at least 8 PM is very weird to me. Also, they are now rerouted to stop at the train station...again. The 62 (westbound), 66 (BOTH directions), 80 (loop-de-loop...LOL) and 92 (westbound) ALL stop across the street from the station. Only the 58 (westbound) stops in front of the station like before. Not sure if the 92 (eastbound) stops in front of the station...looks like it as I saw a sign that says that attached to the old bus stop. Should have taken a picture of that.

By the way, the last stop for the 66 in Riverhead is Peconic Bay Medical Center. I THOUGHT per the schedule it was Riverhead LIRR...apparently not. The 58 sits in the parking lot...like what #1037 did last night (that bus...WHOA! What a sound!) Honestly, I like that arrangement better AND the 66 does carry although that could stay 30 minutes ALL day. The last two westbound trips on the 92 should start from Bridgehampton. When I got on in Southampton, the driver had to close his partition...which means the bus was empty. LOL! 

Edited December 5, 2023 by The TransitMan

[checkmatechamp13]

@The TransitMan Starting the last two trips at Bridgehampton would mean that East Hampton and Sag Harbor see their last buses shortly after 5pm...not acceptable given that one of the main selling points of this new network was later evening service.

For the 66, how long of a layover does the B/O take at the medical center and at Riverhead? If the bus goes out as the next trip, that means there is roughly a 20 minute layover on weekdays (and a 59 minute layover on weekends). 

[The TransitMan]

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@The TransitMan Starting the last two trips at Bridgehampton would mean that East Hampton and Sag Harbor see their last buses shortly after 5pm...not acceptable given that one of the main selling points of this new network was later evening service.

For the 66, how long of a layover does the B/O take at the medical center and at Riverhead? If the bus goes out as the next trip, that means there is roughly a 20 minute layover on weekdays (and a 59 minute layover on weekends). 

Well then maybe the LAST trip because that ridership going towards Orient Point is basically dead. Maybe in the summer would be different. As for the layover in Riverhead, there's a 7-11 and Dunkin Donuts with the hospital for a restroom so since #7029 (66) past by the station, then came back to pick up on it's way to Patchogue...it took about maybe 15? Remember, this was the 9 PM bus to Patchogue. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by The TransitMan

[IAlam]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:25 AM, Mtatransit said:

I can understand Amityville and Riverhead as those are mostly terminating routes 

But Smith Haven just doesn’t work… not only is the bus loading area utter confusion, (what’s with the county not installing signs anyways) but you also can’t time the routes entering Smith Haven properly. There is just too many through routes

CI and Brentwood I am conflicted. I do believe we should have atleast one pulse point here to provide connections between different directions, but having pulse points at both is too much

The 4 should either fit into Brentwood or Central Islip. It shouldn’t need to make both

I made my first trip not too long ago and this. The connections there feel like a mess.

On 11/23/2023 at 9:42 AM, B35 via Church said:

Well hell, if the wait times are still/generally too long, then how bad was it before (as in, compared to the first time you went out there) ?

Even with all the cuts to the system, SCT's bus system is still too large to organically pull off timed connections at multiple/major xfer points in the network.... While well-intentioned, it's just not realistic.... Weird feeling, but in regards to this particular facet of the new network, I'm sitting back reading this sneering & chortling, while concurrently irritated.....

Back when you & @Mtatransit were stoked, or otherwise (apparently) optimistic about these timed connections, the very thing you're now reporting here with this, is what I figured was going to end up happening - having buses sitting idle for minutes on end, mid-route, in an attempt to make these timed connections work... Too many variables at play to have it all be pulled off naturally smoothly, or otherwise within reason.... Speaking of which, I'd go as far as to say it's unreasonable to riders that aren't seeking those particular mid-route connections; I would personally be livid if I was sitting at one stop for 10 minutes in an attempt to guarantee a connection (I'd say 5 is even pushing it, but that's the greatest amount of leeway I'd give it)... Like how much time is some poor rider on the #4 traveling between say, Deer Park & Smith Haven, having being pissed away sitting at Brentwood and at Central Islip waiting for connections that he/she doesn't need.....

To me, all it shows is how the powers that be, views the bus system.... The new network is not *the little engine that could* (so to speak)... It is not small at all, but it appears to me that the decision makers in all this, views SCT as some small bus network....

My plan was to ride the new system the first week of the new year (while I'm off work), but the more I read your posts/reports & listen to pinepower's videos regarding the new network, I want no part of this crap.

From my experience during less busy hours buses are running early so they're usually staying at a previous pulse point longer than scheduled and then catching up. But then during rush hours the buses are stuck in traffic and are unable to keep up with the schedule anymore. I missed 2 pulses back to back and saw a couple of other buses miss the pulse points too.

I will say Walt Whitman seems to be timed pretty well even though it's not a pulse point. Riverhead seems to be decent as well but you can have some buses come as early as 15-20 minutes before the pulse. 

[B35 via Church]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:00 PM, hounddriver said:

This new route system seems to be a joke from my observations,at least on the north shore. Every time I see a bus,it's nearly empty or empty. I think one of the biggest mistakes is routing the 5 off Jericho Tpke down Old Willets Path instead of continuing on Jericho(previous S58) leaving that stretch through Commack with no service....

I'd say the larger issue is the waning demand for Jericho Tpke (namely, west of Commack).... Over the years, I've seen it completely crap out on the n79, come damn close to doing so on the old S29, and significantly wane on the old S54.... Only route that had/maintained any sort of decent demand for / patronage along it, was the S58.... I always thought there should've been a route b/w Whitman & Smith Haven anyway.... The dilemma was always that simply extending the S58 to Whitman would've that much more unmanageable.... AFAIC, the need to have the S6 specifically run b/w Patchogue & Whitman Mall has waned....

On 12/3/2023 at 8:21 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Back in the day, what were ridership patterns like on the S20 (in its Babylon - Sunrise Mall form)? Was it primarily picking up/dropping off riders coming to/from Sunrise Mall, or was there some turnover?

What I'm particularly interested in is transfer activity between the S1 and S20 (I know it isn't quite a fair comparison since Montauk Highway isn't that close to the areas up by Oak Street and John Street, but just to get an idea of how many people in that general area are seeking access to NY-110). Most of the other connections which were previously available at Sunrise Mall are now available at Amityville LIRR station, but the one big benefit at Amityville (for a Montauk Highway route) is the connection to NY-110, which was available on the S20, but not the N19. 

Simply put, the S20, especially pre-2016, had way more people utilizing it anywhere b/w Copiague & Babylon (I don't ever remember the S20 getting great usage west of Sunrise, when it ended at the Kohl's in E. Massapequa).... Overall, I'd say the amt. of people [not going to Sunrise] & those that [were going to Sunrise], was about 40/60 back then.... Either way, S20's used to be PACKED...... In other words, the route wasn't nearly as close to being wholly reliant on Sunrise back then, than how it ended up becoming after a] those 2016 cuts (that featured the 1b, 35, 71, 90, etc) in general & b] specifically, when they turned the S20 into a loop route to replace the N19 routing east of Sunrise.... What also didn't help, was the decreasing popularity over the course of time of the Great South Bay shopping center; that place used to be a pretty big deal back then.... As an aside, the damage was already done when they decided to extend the S29 down to that shopping center... Just wasted mileage all around.

More to your concern/inquiry, TBH, I never really noticed much of anyone on the S20 from either end of the route xferring to the S1..... Now if people decided to take the train from Babylon to Amityville (instead of taking the S20) to get to the S1, IDK, but I wouldn't necessarily have doubted it..... Those from Sunrise (either of Suffolk patrons, or of folks coming off LIB's) that wanted the S1, would take the S33 for it instead... Why? Because the S20 stayed on Oak st. & didn't deviate to enter LIRR Amityville like the S33 did....

[checkmatechamp13]

@BM5 via Woodhaven

I'd take your proposed 80 and modify it slightly like so.

Basically, I'd have a 52A/52B setup. Buses would alternate between William Floyd Parkway and Titmus Drive, and then come back north on the opposite route. I'd run it hourly with a 90 minute cycle time and interline it with the 62. (I guess the only issue with that is that the 62 and 80 are contracted out to different companies, but I'm sure there could be a workaround with that).

[B35 via Church]

Back on MLK jr day, I finally went out to Suffolk County.... Killed two birds with one stone, with fanning the full n70 (which I haven't done in a good minute) & trying out the first SCT route I embarked on - the #12.... Rode that to Bay Shore, where I just jumped on the first thing that pulled up in service - which was the #7.... Rode that the full way, then doubled back on (another) #7 & took that to Brentwood.... At Brentwood (the first #7 I took), we sat there for exactly 20 mins due to a driver change... All the other routes had been pulled off after one of those SCT transport cars sped up to the front of the bus out of nowhere, that contained the b/o that eventually took us up to the VA medical center.... Speaking of which, that 20 minute wait seemed to serve a dual purpose - the driver change, and the fact that buses can't layover inside the hospital facility, due to the construction/renovation going on, that has it picking up/dropping off a a temporary bus stop (nice little tent setup they did for it btw, as an attempt to protect pax. from rain & snow - although it did nothing for the cold... lol)....

Unsatisfied with how the above trip got stymied (after the 2nd trip on the #7, I ended up taking the LIRR at Brentwood to Hicksville to do some NICE fanning, because.... mother nature called ), I did some SCT fanning yesterday.... On top of it, I got a free ride in the morning from Jamaica to Amityville (c/r never came up to the car that I was in, so I still have that ticket for maybe... a trip next week )....

So I ended up doing the #4 - #58 (to Riverhead) - #66 - #53 - #55 - #6 - n79 - n24 (east) - n15 (to RVC), then the LIRR, , and the B35 home.... Routes bolded, I rode the whole route of... I would bold the #55, but I can't figure out where that route ends at, on the northern end.... As soon as I crossed the street after getting off the #53, I saw a #55 in the distance... There was someone waiting for said #55 back to Patchogue, so it was the 2 of us standing there.... When we boarded the bus though, there were 2 other people already on it (one of which was some dude talking about conspiracy shit involving the Holocaust with the b/o; talking about fake or real gas chambers or some shit).... So I was like, where the hell does this thing start at? Because on the site, it supposedly starts at the PJ shopping plaza - meaning it & the #53 supposedly terminate there....

One thing I'll say right off the bat that, of the 4 rides that were over a hour long (#4, #58, #66, #6), none of them felt as long as they ended up being, time-wise.... The buses definitely move at a better pace.... Being perfectly honest though, while it definitely felt more like a cohesive network of routes (compared to the old network), I didn't feel like I was riding a public transportation system... Felt more like I was riding a private transportation system that's trying to make the jump into becoming a public transportation system.... That can be a good thing & a bad thing at the same time.

Just for shits & giggles I guess, few things:

• At Amityville, the #4 I ended up taking was the last bus to pull out, by a significant margin.... There was a #1 on layover, but it never went in service; not sure if there was an issue with the bus or what, because I did see the b/o circling around the bus, as if something was wrong.... The only bus that left on time was actually the #10... The #2 a] arrived out of nowhere, b] left early as shit (6 mins. to be exact), and c] sped o ff, almost hitting someone crossing the street... Not sure what her problem was.... Anyway, the lady I had on the #4 left late, to stop off to use the bathroom (which I wasn't tripping about).....
• Speaking of the #2, there was no way in hell I was taking an ARBOC from Amityville to Patchogue.... After having gotten off the #4 at Smith Haven though, I boarded the only bus that was standing waiting at the time (to get out the cold) - which was that #58... Which unfortunately, was also a damn ARBOC.... That ride was fu**ing brutal....
• The terminal situation at Riverhead... Confusing as shit.... I didn't know what the hell anything was (as in, what route was what, as all the buses were turned off & there were no signs on any of the poles... guess they blew off in the wind or something, IDK), nor what route in what direction was leaving from where.... I had to ask her (the driver of the #58 I had) where does the #66 stop... She told me to cross the street, but mentioned something about not knowing if that's a bus stopping at the hospital or not, and to go up the last bus (there were 4 buses on that side of the street standing idle) & ask {if that was a #66}..... In the interim, this cute, thick little cookie asked "you waiting for the #62", I said "nah, the #66".... She pointed behind her bus (which was the same bus that the driver on the #58 I had, told me to go ask... problem was, no driver was there - the doors were open though)....
  • Long story short, IDK what route that last bus in the line of 4 actually was, because the #66 I eventually took, pulled up behind that bus, from that small pocket proximate to Osborn av, proximate to the RR tracks... None of those 4 buses in question left before the #66 I ended up taking did..
• Apparently, the #11 & 17 interline (there's a paper on one of the ARBOC's I saw along the way , that had a paper 11 sign on one side of the doors, and a paper 17 sign on the first window next to the door.... Same apparently goes for the #2 & the..... 77Y.... *shrugs*
• The #58 had the most passenger activity out of all the routes I took.... The least was easily the #53 (the trip only transported 3 pax from end-to-end - myself included).... The ride I enjoyed the most was actually the #6.... The #55 driver I had was absolutely flying down rt. 112 though!.... I would say I got lucky with the #66, but at the same time, even with the old network, it always seemed like the EB S66 had more passenger activity along the way than the WB S66... When I got off the #66 at Patchogue, I'd say there were about 20-30 people waiting for the bus back east.... I'd say the entire trip garnered about 20 people total (4 of which, myself included, got off at Patchogue)....
• I made the right call getting off that n15 at RVC.... I would've been screwed if I'd have rode it full to Long Beach... It'd have had me waiting over an hour for that last n33 trip back to Far Rockaway... Also, there was (IMO, what looked to be) an asylum seeker that was acting erratically.... I was already sitting at the back of the bus, so I wasn't getting up to move to another seat (like this one other dude did).... Pacing back & forth, stretching out on the seats (dude was about the same height I am; 6'3", so I know that shit was uncomfortable), continually switching seats, continually taking off his shoes, to name a few things... I'm in the back doing my number puzzles, and dude pulls out a burgundy wool hat - as if to suggest that it's up for sale ... He didn't say anything the whole time; I'm not so sure if he even knew english..... But whatever.

Any questions, have at it.... Nothing else on my mind right this second that I can think of sharing

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church At one point earlier in the process, the maps mentioned which routes interlined. So the 52A/52B interline in Gordon Heights, the 11/17 interline in Hauppauge, and the 51 interlines with the 53/55 at Port Jefferson Shopping Plaza (evenings/weekends, the 51/53 interline and the 55 turns around on itself). Those were from earlier maps of the proposed network. 

Also, I forget if I mentioned it, but I know the 7 & 12 are interlined to a certain degree on weekends. And the 3 & 10 are interlined at Babylon. (Those two aren't mentioned on any old maps, similar to the 2 & 77Y that you mentioned).

My guess is that the 51 B/O changed his sign to 55 somewhere around Downtown Port Jefferson or over by the LIRR station just to make things easier for people heading south down NY-112. 

For the 2 & 77Y, my guess would be that the B/O takes a meal break in Yaphank (judging by the long layover on that end)

[B35 via Church]

54 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church At one point earlier in the process, the maps mentioned which routes interlined. So the 52A/52B interline in Gordon Heights, the 11/17 interline in Hauppauge, and the 51 interlines with the 53/55 at Port Jefferson Shopping Plaza (evenings/weekends, the 51/53 interline and the 55 turns around on itself). Those were from earlier maps of the proposed network. 

Also, I forget if I mentioned it, but I know the 7 & 12 are interlined to a certain degree on weekends. And the 3 & 10 are interlined at Babylon. (Those two aren't mentioned on any old maps, similar to the 2 & 77Y that you mentioned).

My guess is that the 51 B/O changed his sign to 55 somewhere around Downtown Port Jefferson or over by the LIRR station just to make things easier for people heading south down NY-112. 

For the 2 & 77Y, my guess would be that the B/O takes a meal break in Yaphank (judging by the long layover on that end)

Yeah, that crossed my mind also (about that #55 likely having been a #51 before the fact), but to be picking up pax. before you're supposed to be picking them up, has never sat well with me.... Reeks of favoritism... But while I agree with having gotten rid of ending buses at the PJ Ferry like the old S61 did, you create the situation where #51's don't layover on the northern end of the route - doing straight (as in, layover-less) interlines with #53's & #55's on weekdays, and with the #55 on weekends (now that I'm looking at the schedules here)... Come to think of it, the 2 stints that had me in Patchogue, I did not see a #51 at all.... The only time I saw a #51 was earlier in theday, after the #58 I took pulled out of Smith Haven....

In any case though, the #53 I took up there went OOS & made the left turn onto Chereb lane to turnaround or whatever.... Crazy enough, I forgot to write the bus number down... Was hoping that said #53 would arrive back at Patchogue during my wait for the #6 after I got off the #55... So I sat inside the LIRR waiting room (train fans would've loved seeing the two diesels at the station; one was on the opposite side/track at the station, and another train (that ended at Patchogue) pulled in, not too long after I went inside.... At least it's good that the MTA opened up the waiting rooms during these frigid temperatures (I also waited inside the waiting rooms at Amityville & at Rockville Centre btw)... But yeah, as I was about to board the #6, that same #53 driver I had stepped off the bus to stretch his legs or whatever... Both buses ended up pulling out at the same time.... So yeah, I lucked out in that regard.

The one thing that's still gotta get straightened out, is the situation with the bus stop signs.... When we got to Coram Plaza, I CTFU'd at the fact that they put up a fence between the sidewalk & the property, and got rid of the bus shelter as well.... That's one way to get rid of the riff-raff that used to congregate there.... At the same time though, there was no semblance of knowing that buses even stopped there!! None of those bus stop placards (which is so tacky to me) or nothing..... But throughout the day, I still saw shelters up where buses don't stop at anymore... Furthermore, it's odd that they have new bus stop signs along West st. NB in Patchogue; alongside the district court bldg. - that have the old bus route designations (S40, S54, S66, etc).... Like, what are we doing here....

Being that buses run later under the new network, I thought about prolonging the trip (by doing the #3 to the #5 to the #51 to get to the main line) after having gotten off the #6 at Whitman, but apparently I just missed the #3.... So I waited inside Whitman for a bit & eventually caught that n79... Of course I was the only one waiting for it... Of course I was the only passenger on the bus within Suffolk county.. SMH.... At least it picked up a fair amt. of pax along Manetto Hill.... I knew Indians moved out to Hicksville, but I didn't know as many also moved out to Plainview... Nobody got on or off along OCR though.... As much as I like the n79, I think it may be time to consider taking it away from Whitman & having it tap into that latent demand in Syosset....

[The TransitMan]

On 1/21/2024 at 11:17 PM, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, that crossed my mind also (about that #55 likely having been a #51 before the fact), but to be picking up pax. before you're supposed to be picking them up, has never sat well with me.... Reeks of favoritism... But while I agree with having gotten rid of ending buses at the PJ Ferry like the old S61 did, you create the situation where #51's don't layover on the northern end of the route - doing straight (as in, layover-less) interlines with #53's & #55's on weekdays, and with the #55 on weekends (now that I'm looking at the schedules here)... Come to think of it, the 2 stints that had me in Patchogue, I did not see a #51 at all.... The only time I saw a #51 was earlier in theday, after the #58 I took pulled out of Smith Haven....

In any case though, the #53 I took up there went OOS & made the left turn onto Chereb lane to turnaround or whatever.... Crazy enough, I forgot to write the bus number down... Was hoping that said #53 would arrive back at Patchogue during my wait for the #6 after I got off the #55... So I sat inside the LIRR waiting room (train fans would've loved seeing the two diesels at the station; one was on the opposite side/track at the station, and another train (that ended at Patchogue) pulled in, not too long after I went inside.... At least it's good that the MTA opened up the waiting rooms during these frigid temperatures (I also waited inside the waiting rooms at Amityville & at Rockville Centre btw)... But yeah, as I was about to board the #6, that same #53 driver I had stepped off the bus to stretch his legs or whatever... Both buses ended up pulling out at the same time.... So yeah, I lucked out in that regard.

The one thing that's still gotta get straightened out, is the situation with the bus stop signs.... When we got to Coram Plaza, I CTFU'd at the fact that they put up a fence between the sidewalk & the property, and got rid of the bus shelter as well.... That's one way to get rid of the riff-raff that used to congregate there.... At the same time though, there was no semblance of knowing that buses even stopped there!! None of those bus stop placards (which is so tacky to me) or nothing..... But throughout the day, I still saw shelters up where buses don't stop at anymore... Furthermore, it's odd that they have new bus stop signs along West st. NB in Patchogue; alongside the district court bldg. - that have the old bus route designations (S40, S54, S66, etc).... Like, what are we doing here....

Being that buses run later under the new network, I thought about prolonging the trip (by doing the #3 to the #5 to the #51 to get to the main line) after having gotten off the #6 at Whitman, but apparently I just missed the #3.... So I waited inside Whitman for a bit & eventually caught that n79... Of course I was the only one waiting for it... Of course I was the only passenger on the bus within Suffolk county.. SMH.... At least it picked up a fair amt. of pax along Manetto Hill.... I knew Indians moved out to Hicksville, but I didn't know as many also moved out to Plainview... Nobody got on or off along OCR though.... As much as I like the n79, I think it may be time to consider taking it away from Whitman & having it tap into that latent demand in Syosset....

You should check out Brentwood! Bro, those bus shelters along Brentwood Rd...GONE! Now it's just regular street lamps and such.. However, I do agree with you. They need to get a move on these bus stop signs. Especially on the NEW routes like the 52B and the updated 80. As for Patchogue, I'm not surprised that bus stop on West St is still like that. Just cater to the LIRR for the tourists if you ask me.

So there is a demand for service to Syosset? Really? I remember hearing about the MSBA bus route running up to Syosset but was discontinued years ago.

[hounddriver]

Why does the 58 stop at the Dennison Bldg in Hauppauge, but not the DMV-state office bldg where most passenger activity is,as well as transferring passengers?

[checkmatechamp13]

Tracking is now available: https://gisapps.suffolkcountyny.gov/sctransit/

[Trainmaster5]

Although I’ve been traveling to Suffolk County ( Brentwood ) since my inlaws moved here in 1981 I’ve only ridden one SCT bus in my lifetime and that was an exploration trip on the S1. Rode it from end to end just for the experience. I remember telling my father-in-law that as a Brooklynite I wanted nothing to do with a bus system that seemed to stop operating after 7 pm. LIRR had a single track at Brentwood and the station was located on the west side of Brentwood Road. No westbound trains between 4:23 and 7:23 pms on weekdays. Because I worked late pms on work trains in transit I had to get that 4:23 train or catch a ride to Babylon if I hadn’t driven out there to Brentwood. There were times I had to climb up onto the trailing diesel to make that train. The Conductor would read me the riot act after we stopped at Deer Park. When they upgraded the LIRR line to 2 tracks and relocated the station house they installed bus stops on both sides of Brentwood Road  although that 3 hour gap westbound remained and then I started paying attention to the bus routes down there. I think there were 3 routes prefixed with an S, 27, 41, and IIRC 47. There were 3 routes prefixed with a 3, A, B and D. I remember the 41 went to the VA hospital and the 3D was for Stony Brook Hospital. Even after reading B35’s adventures with SCT I still can’t see how the service was interconnected. In 40+ years of being around this area I travel to the South Shore Mall, Huntington Square and the Smith Haven Malls by car. I think I was spoiled by NYCTA bus service in Brooklyn and the city in general. Now with the new service out here in Suffolk I notice the 5 and 7 bus routes and I’ve seen a ARBOC (?) with a split 7/11 sign on the front door. The little jitney type buses have no numbers on the overhead signs which is bad enough but I drive through the Hauppauge Industrial area and I noticed old signs or missing new signs at some of the bus shelters or stops. Very tacky in my opinion. For all the fanners I thank you for enlightening me and keep up the good work. Carry on.

[B35 via Church]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:59 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church @BM5 via Woodhaven Out of curiosity, what would be your ranking of efficiency of the routes in the new network? (I'd personally consider the S52 to be a bit weaker than the S17). I'd say as follows (to clarify, when I say efficiency, I mean ridership relative to length and allocated frequency).....

Wanted to take some time with these rankings... Sorry for the delay.

I'd go:

#1, #4, #5, #7, #66, #51, #11, #2, #58, #6, #92, #55, #62, #12, #77Y, #52a. #52b, #53, #17, #77, #3, #10, #80 (loop), #15 (Robert Moses), #110 (Suffolk Clipper)

How I did this, was that I ranked all the 30 min. routes first, then I did a little plug & play (so to speak) with the hourly routes... The #77Y I have ranked as high as I have it, due to its shorter span (which I can't ignore, since you're tying allocated frequency into this inquiry regarding how these routes fare, in regards to efficiency).... If it had the same span as the #77, I'd rank it b/w the #10 & the #80..... Even with the few. amt of trips per day, running 5 days a week, I still have the Suffolk Clipper as the most inefficient route in the system - far too much dead mileage (highway time), carrying next to nobody in the process.... I'm not sure what the story is with the 10B & the 10C; if they still have them running, or what.... So for that reason, I omitted them from the rankings....

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* As far as the most efficient route in the system (considering frequency), I have to go with the S1.... While the #1 has lost ridership b/w SUNY Farmingdale & Whitman mall, while I do see the #4 ending up being the most utilized route in the system, I don't see the #4 blowing the #1 out of the water to make up for the fact that it travels about 5-6 miles longer than it, to say it's more efficient.... The weakest part of the #4 is the stint b/w Central Islip & Smith Haven (not inclusive).... The core of the route is b/w Wyandanch & Central Islip (inclusive).... I would have the #4 as being the most efficient route in the system if it ran b/w Amityville & Central Islip, or b/w Wyandanch & Smith Haven... But the totality of the #4 I can't say is more efficient than the totality of the #1... The portion of the #1 north of Whitman has always been underrated, and the portion of the #1 south of Farmingdale remains solid/heavily utilized as it's typically been....

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** The next 4 routes (#5, #7, #66, #51) are all in the same "tier" to me.... With the #5, what kept it out of the top tier is the portion east of the county offices... Both the #5 & the #7 look to travel around the same distance, and I think they'll generally have around or about the same amt. of ridership.... While being toss-ups, I have the #5 higher than the #7, because I see it garnering more usage b/w Babylon & Hauppauge, than I see the #7 doing so b/w Bay Shore & Jericho Tpke..... The reason I have the #66 slightly behind the #5 & the #7, is due to the portion b/w Riverhead & Mastic (not inclusive)... While it'll garner more ridership than those 2 routes, it also travels a further distance.....

Lastly in this tier, the thing with the #51 is that, while the connecting of dots (so to speak) looks good on paper, the outer-thirds of the route (meaning, b/w [Patchogue & Ronkonkoma] & b/w [Smith Haven & Pt. Jeff Station]) is the reason I'd say it's the least efficient of the 4 routes... The portion north of Smith Haven I find to be potentially too hit or miss... The old S60 worked up there b/c S58's & S62's were often delayed, not to mention it offered a 1 seat ride to Smith Haven and Port Jeff from Coram Plaza & Gordon Heights... The #51 (I would say stops dead, but it interlines with the #53 & #55) terminates in Pt. Jeff Station... The old S60 from Smith Haven didn't die in Pt. Jeff Station.... Not saying/implicating that the #51 should run to Gordon Hgts (no need for it to), but what I am saying is that the #51 b/w Smith Haven & Pt. Jeff. Station won't be remotely utilized as the old S60 was b/w that same stretch... On the opposite end of the thing (#51), while the stint b/w Ronkonkoma & Patchogue will loom convenient, I don't see it making the route more efficient....

----------------------------------------------------------

*** After the 1st tier (#1, #4) & 2nd tier (#5, #7, #66, #51), there's a big dropoff in efficiency with the rest of these routes - for differing reasons, of course.... I guess everything b/w the #11 & #53 (which, at 12 total routes, constitutes almost half the total routes in the new network) is all in one tier.... To start this off, the #11 was one of the trickier routes to rank... While I'm in limbo if it should be 1/2 hourly or not (which is the main reason I don't have it in that second tier), I have it ranked higher up in this lower tier, largely due to how compact it is... Quicker link than the #7 b/w Bay Shore & Brentwood, and I see it transporting (more of) the masses b/w Hauppauge & Brentwood - even moreso than the #5...

Being perfectly honest, with the #2, #6, & #58, I would rank them lower down if I didn't use the #92 as a sort of median in this whole thing... Even though I have the #6 ranked lower than the #2, I believe the #2 will end up losing ridership, partly because of the #6.... Couple that with the extension to Amityville from Babylon, and I don't at all see the #2 as one of the upper echelon ranked routes in the system, in terms of efficiency... I'll break it down - see, with the old network, you had a lot of folks taking S40's from Patchogue to Bay Shore for a] Bay Shore, itself, and b] points between Bay Shore & Brentwood... With the #6 directly running to Central Islip, the connection to/for a route going to(wards) Brentwood is that much more feasible & will take a considerably less amt. of time (than the old S40 from that end of the route, to the (S45, S41 or 3B)).... The saving grace for the #2 will be the portion b/w Babylon & East Islip.... Have it not be for Sayville, I'd "say" the #2 would almost be a complete dead zone east of the Southern State (well, the Heckscher state Pkwy. at that point) in terms of patronage... Basically what I'm getting at here is that I see the demand for the #2 in Patchogue considerably waning....

With that said about the #2, I believe the #6 is in even worse trouble..... The saving grace for the #6 is easily the southern half of the route... I was seriously concerned about the old S54 b/w Hauppauge & Whitman, and my sentiment/concern is no different, now that the route has a new route number.... While I'm not sure which of the 2 routes is longer than the other (don't think there's a significant difference either way), I still see the #2 garnering more overall usage than the #6 - and that is saying a lot.... I don't know when it started happening, but at some point, folks stopped taking S54's along Jericho Tpke in the numbers that they used to in the past.... It still gets a fair amt. of usage at Whitman itself, but once it leaves Whitman, the situation is not good at all; not all that much passenger activity before it hits the county offices.... I seriously believe looking at the totality of the #6, it's a route I see completely hanging on (by a thread) with straggler level ridership - including the southern half of the route.... The reason you keep it at half-hourly headways, is due to the coverage it offers in Western Suffolk County in general.... All that said, I'll still say that the #6 is an improvement over the old S54 (which is probably not saying much of anything at this point).....  As far as the #58, I threw it between the #2 & the #6 because 1] it's an hourly route (if it was 1/2 hourly, I'd have it as far back as I do the #17, if not further back), 2] from their respective terminus', I see the #58 garnering more usage than the #6, but not necessarily more than the #2 - that's how far I believe the S54 has fallen/#6 will continue to wane, #3] the sheer amt. of dead mileage east of Middle Island, coupled with the stint b/w Smith Haven & Brentwood... have it not been for that, I'd actually have the #58 just ahead of the #11 - putting it ahead of both the #2 & the #6.... Ultimately with these 3 routes, I feel like I'm splitting hairs (given the sheer distance they all cover), but I just wanted to give some nuance/an explanation....

The #55 & the #62 I have ranked where they are, for different reasons.... Both of those routes have taken a hit in terms of popularity over the years...... The old S61 & S62 used to be heavily sought after routes... The #55 these days, all things considered, is a solid hourly route (if this route was 1/2 hourly {like the S61 used to be during certain parts of the day}, I'd have it back there with the #10 & the #80 in terms of efficiency & frequency)... The demand for the #62 in general OTOH fell off a bigger cliff - especially between Pt. Jeff & Calverton.... While I didn't think they'd actually propose it, I was worried that they would (originally propose axing the #62)..... Needless to say, Riverhead & Pt. Jefferson has been keeping that route alive for ages, but now I believe the situation is that much more dire... The reason I don't have it lower down in the ranking is due to the fact that it ends in Smith Haven.... If they still had it running to industrial Hauppauge, I'd have it ranked back there with the #17 (which is what/where I'd also have the #58, if it were 1/2 hourly).... To sum it up, even given the mileage of the #58 compared to the shortened #62, I still have the #58 being more efficient than the #62, because I easily see it garnering that much more riders....

I still say continuing to have the #12 ending at SUNY Farmingdale stunts the route's growth... It should either run to Conklin/rt. 110 or to the Walmart in Farmingdale (also along rt. 110)..... From Bay Shore, it ceases being all that useful west of Deer Park av.... The #12 between SUNY Farmingdale & Deer Park (av) feels like the old S42 b/w Babylon & Bay Shore - a snoozefest.... Not that the old 2b was raking in the riders either, but at least it served more people's residences.... I don't see the #12 being all that useful in the network & it has no business running half-hourly (even if it offers a connection to NICE bus)... I don't think it would be too crazy a take to a] combine the southern half of the #12 with the northern portion of the #3, and b] have another route be the result of a combination of the northern half of the #12 & the southern portion of the #3.... In other words, a Bay Shore - Whitman route & a Babylon - SUNY Farmingdale (via Deer Park & Wyandanch), both running hourly.... I'm not necessarily/staunchly proposing this, but this map portrays what I'm saying with this.... Regardless, the #12 at 30 min. headways is not efficient at all....

There's not much separating the #12, #52a, #52b, and #53 in the rankings.... I swear what I'm about to say wasn't done on purpose - If the #12 was an hourly route, I'd have it ranked right where I currently have it! Less efficient than the #62 (because I don't see any part of the #12 performing remotely close to either the #62 b/w Calverton & Riverhead, or the #62 b/w Smith Haven & Pt. Jeff), but slightly more efficient than the #52a/b & the #53.... Even though I used the #92 as a median for the rankings (in terms of what route I should throw where - as in, to the left or to the right of it on the list), the #12 is the actual median in the list (I would have the 10b & 10c ranked lower than the #12)... Scary coincidence/consistency.... Anyway, I have the #53 where I have it in the back end of this 3rd tier, simply because it's the longer of the four routes (#12, #52a/b, #53) & I see it garnering less overall patronage of the four routes... I have the #52a ahead of the #52b simply because it serves Coram Plaza before serving (more of) Gordon Heights.... While I'd say Mooney Pond brings down the #52a's efficiency, the #52b serving Brookhaven Town Hall & serving less of Gordon Hgts. brings down its efficiency even further.... I get that they're interlined, but still......

AFAIC, the #52 should be one route running between Central Islip & Coram Plaza, via Expressway Plaza & via Gordon Heights, but that's neither here nor there....

----------------------------------------------------------
**** I think I've said enough about the #17 in other posts... The #15, even though it runs summers only, I still find to be immensely excessive at hourly headways all day.... Already spoke on the #110 in the first paragraph..... With that said, unless you or anyone else has any specific questions about what I have ranked in this ass-end tier of abhorrently abominable routes, I think I'm going to end this post right here

[B35 via Church]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:59 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

{S1  S4  S66  S2  S7  S11  S6  S51  S55  S12  S5  S58  S92? S53  S17  S52A/S52B  S3  S62  S10  S77/77Y  S80}

On 11/26/2023 at 3:43 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

{4  1  66   5  2  6  51  7  58  11  92  55  62  12  53  52A/52B  77/77Y  3  17 > 10 (barely though) ..... ... ....... ..... .....  80}

6 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

{#1, #4, #5, #7, #66, #51, #11, #2, #58, #6, #92, #55, #62, #77Y, #12, #52a. #52b, #53, #17, #77, #3, #10, #80 (loop), #15 (Robert Moses), #110 (Suffolk Clipper)}

Hmm... noticing both of y'alls list, the one thing that apparent to me is that you two placed more of a bias/more stock into overall ridership.... I put more stock in route mileage (not saying either is really right or wrong)..... As you probably know, I've long been a proponent of proposing (what I like to call) compact routes & have never been a proponent of just proposing routes I believe will garner high amt's of ridership, regardless of distance (hence why I coined the term "superroute")... So I'm always going to place more of a bias on distance, even if it's 50.0000000001 to 49.999999999 (lol).....

While the apparent consensus is that the #1 & the #4 are the two top dog's (so to speak), I'm actually shocked that you both have the #2 as high up on the list.... I was contemplating putting it (and the #6, for that matter) further down on my list....

------------------------------

What I am curious about is...

@checkmatechamp13 Why you have the #17 so high up on the list, and why/how you have the #55 ahead of the #5 (even if it's hourly) ?

@BM5 via Woodhaven To sum it up, how much more usage do you see the #4 ending up garnering, compared to the #1?

While I read your initial post, your point/snippet regarding the #1 & the #4 sticks out to me.... While I agree the potential of the #4 is nothing to ignore, something else that shouldn't be ignored is just how much longer the #4 is to the #1... If the question was solely regarding ridership (instead of basically ridership per mile, with respect to frequency), I'd agree that the #4 would be ranked first.... Be there as it may, the #1's patronage, even though (the S1) lost ridership, would likely still be close enough to the #4 to where it wouldn't be less efficient than it... The #1 would have to lose a shit ton of ridership (on top of what the S1 already ended up losing) - as quite frankly, there's only but so much ridership to be had out in Suffolk County (which sucks that there's as much of an anti-bus mentality out in the 'burbs in general, but it is what it is).....

I know you don't care for the #5 also going to Smith Haven, but the #5 & the #58 eating into that Brentwood - Smith Haven demand is something else that brings down the #4 in terms of efficiency - in the sense that it's that much less riders that would use it, have those other 2 routes not run b/w the 2 points....

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't think it would be too crazy a take to a] combine the southern half of the #12 with the northern portion of the #3, and b] have another route be the result of a combination of the northern half of the #12 & the southern portion of the #3.... In other words, a Bay Shore - Whitman route & a Babylon - SUNY Farmingdale (via Deer Park & Wyandanch), both running hourly.... I'm not necessarily/staunchly proposing this, but this map portrays what I'm saying with this.... Regardless, the #12 at 30 min. headways is not efficient at all....

Damn... Just realized I forgot to... actually make the damn map

I'll get to it later, after I come back.

On 1/24/2024 at 9:09 AM, The TransitMan said:

You should check out Brentwood! Bro, those bus shelters along Brentwood Rd...GONE! Now it's just regular street lamps and such.. However, I do agree with you. They need to get a move on these bus stop signs. Especially on the NEW routes like the 52B and the updated 80. As for Patchogue, I'm not surprised that bus stop on West St is still like that. Just cater to the LIRR for the tourists if you ask me.

So there is a demand for service to Syosset? Really? I remember hearing about the MSBA bus route running up to Syosset but was discontinued years ago.

Yep, I noticed it on my initial ride on the #7... The immediate area looks infinitely tidier & presentable!

As for Syosset, well there's always been demand for the more commercial part of Syosset, south of the RR station (as in, along Jericho Tpke, over there by S. Oyster Bay rd. & Underhill rd).... Problem with the old N94 (the route you're referencing) was that it ran in the opposite direction along Jericho Tpke. to serve the business parks... It literally did nothing to address the demand for the part of Syosset people wanted.... Those taxi's at the RR station (Syosset) continue to make a killing because of it.

On 1/24/2024 at 9:59 AM, hounddriver said:

Why does the 58 stop at the Dennison Bldg in Hauppauge, but not the DMV-state office bldg where most passenger activity is,as well as transferring passengers?

Something's gotta serve it... I guess.

Their thought process is likely something along the lines of *everyone can xfer at Brentwood*... Three cheers for.... pulse points?

On 2/3/2024 at 6:53 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Tracking is now available: https://gisapps.suffolkcountyny.gov/sctransit/

This is the rider navigator page (the page with all the interactive/individual route maps).... If this was the intent, then it isn't working (at least on my end) because I've been checking individual route maps at random throughout these past 2 weeks or so, and all of the maps remain static..... Static, as in, nothing is being shown as being in service/being tracked on any of the individual interactive maps....

On 2/17/2024 at 8:25 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Although I’ve been traveling to Suffolk County ( Brentwood ) since my inlaws moved here in 1981 I’ve only ridden one SCT bus in my lifetime and that was an exploration trip on the S1. Rode it from end to end just for the experience. I remember telling my father-in-law that as a Brooklynite I wanted nothing to do with a bus system that seemed to stop operating after 7 pm. LIRR had a single track at Brentwood and the station was located on the west side of Brentwood Road. No westbound trains between 4:23 and 7:23 pms on weekdays. Because I worked late pms on work trains in transit I had to get that 4:23 train or catch a ride to Babylon if I hadn’t driven out there to Brentwood. There were times I had to climb up onto the trailing diesel to make that train. The Conductor would read me the riot act after we stopped at Deer Park. When they upgraded the LIRR line to 2 tracks and relocated the station house they installed bus stops on both sides of Brentwood Road  although that 3 hour gap westbound remained and then I started paying attention to the bus routes down there. I think there were 3 routes prefixed with an S, 27, 41, and IIRC 47. There were 3 routes prefixed with a 3, A, B and D. I remember the 41 went to the VA hospital and the 3D was for Stony Brook Hospital.

Even after reading B35’s adventures with SCT I still can’t see how the service was interconnected. In 40+ years of being around this area I travel to the South Shore Mall, Huntington Square and the Smith Haven Malls by car. I think I was spoiled by NYCTA bus service in Brooklyn and the city in general. Now with the new service out here in Suffolk I notice the 5 and 7 bus routes and I’ve seen a ARBOC (?) with a split 7/11 sign on the front door. The little jitney type buses have no numbers on the overhead signs which is bad enough but I drive through the Hauppauge Industrial area and I noticed old signs or missing new signs at some of the bus shelters or stops. Very tacky in my opinion. For all the fanners I thank you for enlightening me and keep up the good work. Carry on.

Yep, those are ARBOC's - and they even resort to running them on some of the longer routes in the system too... That split sign you saw was likely a 17/11, since they both interline at the county offices in Hauppauge... I've done 3 fantrips out there now & each time I've seen that ARBOC with the 11/17 paper on the windows..... I understand it's going to take a good minute to get a bunch of signs up county-wide & do away with all the shelters that are no longer bus stops, but I'm still of the sentiment that it's been long enough for them to at least do away with these placards for bus stops... For me, it's those very placards that are tacky... Missing bus stop signage is flat out embarrassing (I get miffed at missing signage here in the city, b/c the DOT's damn quick to put up new signage for new routes (and/or for routes that's been altered.... they usually do it days before a new route/altered route change is set to be implemented)....

While I'd like to do trip reports for all my fantrips, the reality is that I feel like it's all for naught nowadays.... Hate to sound like the old man yelling at clouds here, but that's the one thing I do miss about the good old days in this online transit community... Of course not everyone, but back then, there was more of an interest from forum users when it came to checking out some fantrip someone did - whether it was in text form and/or picture/video form.... But if I feel compelled enough, I'll still do them from time to time.

Edited February 19 by B35 via Church

[The TransitMan]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yep, I noticed it on my initial ride on the #7... The immediate area looks infinitely tidier & presentable!

As for Syosset, well there's always been demand for the more commercial part of Syosset, south of the RR station (as in, along Jericho Tpke, over there by S. Oyster Bay rd. & Underhill rd).... Problem with the old N94 (the route you're referencing) was that it ran in the opposite direction along Jericho Tpke. to serve the business parks... It literally did nothing to address the demand for the part of Syosset people wanted.... Those taxi's at the RR station (Syosset) continue to make a killing because of it.

Actually, I was referencing to an older route...the N81 (source Wikipedia) and those "interesting" routes from the 1970s and 1980s. However, I forgot about the N94 as well and you're right ...it should have been addressed when it was in service. 

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church I think the main question boils down to how I ranked the 17 higher than the 62 and the 52A/B. Basically, it has to do with the length of the route. The 17 is relatively compact all things considered. It has Central Islip south of the LIRR tracks all to itself, and I think it does a decent job of combining the two halves of the old 3C in that area (Boulevard Avenue was a bit more centralized, but Lowell Avenue is still walking distance of the denser parts of Central Islip, and then it swings over towards Carleton Avenue and serves CI Town Centre, NYIT, and the courts, and then connects directly to the 2 on the southern end (albeit untimed). Compare that to the 52A/B, which are longer and less compact (realistically, I think most of the ridership will be Gordon Heights/Coram residents looking to connect with the LIRR at Ronkonkoma or with buses in Central Islip...maybe to a lesser extent some Central Islip passengers looking to go further east or out to say, Port Jefferson...that gets to be somewhat harder since besides the 51, the connecting routes all run hourly and you have to review the schedule closely to see whether the A or B is better for a given connection).

For the 62, the sheer length and amount of dead mileage brings down the ranking for me. 

From another perspective, the 17 is basically a straightened out 3C, whereas the 52A/B is basically a 6A rerouted to Gordon Heights and extended to Central Islip. The 3C was generally more efficient than the 6A and S62, so my thinking is that it generally applies to their restructured counterparts.

As for the 55 vs. the 5, I think the meandering route north of the LIRR (in Deer Park but especially north of Brentwood...not to mention the other alternatives between Brentwood & Hauppauge or Brentwood and Smith Haven) really bring efficiency down in that regard. (To put things into perspective, the 5 is about twice as long as the 55, and twice as frequent...I don't think the 5 gets four times the ridership as the 55 to make up for the extra resources needed to operate it). 

[hounddriver]

This new Suffolk revamped system should've been planned by people with transit experience & knowledge of Suffolk County. Besides empty buses running late at night, & almost no new bus stop signage to inform riders or prospective new riders where to catch the bus, they have routes going in & out of the Dennison & State Office Bldgs all day Sat. & Sun. when there's nothing open there. At least the old system had routes bypassing there on weekends with modified routing. Didn't anyone think of this?

[checkmatechamp13]

Buses running later at night was one of the main selling points of the new system. Even if the last bus is empty, it's existence helps boost ridership earlier in the day by assuring passengers that if there's an issue and they have to stay late at work or whatever the case may be, there will still be transportation to get home. (Plus, the buses don't run super-late...you have to get on an LIRR train by 8:30pm or so in order to catch the last round of buses from most of the hubs)

The old system had most routes ending before 7pm...that's unacceptable to leave people stranded that early in the evening.

Edited February 21 by checkmatechamp13

[The TransitMan]

Beginning on March 3rd, Route #1 reverts back onto NYS 110. That routing by Huntington Hospital...added minutes to the line, which I knew wouldn't last long. www.sct.org

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church 

1] I think the main question boils down to how I ranked the 17 higher than the 62 and the 52A/B. Basically, it has to do with the length of the route. The 17 is relatively compact all things considered. It has Central Islip south of the LIRR tracks all to itself, and I think it does a decent job of combining the two halves of the old 3C in that area (Boulevard Avenue was a bit more centralized, but Lowell Avenue is still walking distance of the denser parts of Central Islip, and then it swings over towards Carleton Avenue and serves CI Town Centre, NYIT, and the courts, and then connects directly to the 2 on the southern end (albeit untimed). Compare that to the 52A/B, which are longer and less compact (realistically, I think most of the ridership will be Gordon Heights/Coram residents looking to connect with the LIRR at Ronkonkoma or with buses in Central Islip...maybe to a lesser extent some Central Islip passengers looking to go further east or out to say, Port Jefferson...that gets to be somewhat harder since besides the 51, the connecting routes all run hourly and you have to review the schedule closely to see whether the A or B is better for a given connection).

For the 62, the sheer length and amount of dead mileage brings down the ranking for me. 

From another perspective, the 17 is basically a straightened out 3C, whereas the 52A/B is basically a 6A rerouted to Gordon Heights and extended to Central Islip. The 3C was generally more efficient than the 6A and S62, so my thinking is that it generally applies to their restructured counterparts.

2] As for the 55 vs. the 5, I think the meandering route north of the LIRR (in Deer Park but especially north of Brentwood...not to mention the other alternatives between Brentwood & Hauppauge or Brentwood and Smith Haven) really bring efficiency down in that regard. (To put things into perspective, the 5 is about twice as long as the 55, and twice as frequent...I don't think the 5 gets four times the ridership as the 55 to make up for the extra resources needed to operate it). 

1] I agree with BM5 Woodhaven, where he said something to the effect of the #52a/b (at least the western/shared portion of the 2 routes) having more going for it.... Just like there was a need for a route like the #4 b/w Deer Park & Central Islip along the main line, there's also a bit of a need to connect Central Islip & Ronkonkoma along the main line.... I'd say you're grossly underestimating the #52a/b if you think most of the usage is going to come from Coram & Gordon Heights; those are hardly the folks commuting to/from the rail... The western/shared portion of the #52a/b I undoubtedly see garnering a lot more usage than either of the individual portions of the #52a/b (as in, east of SCCC Selden).... Basically, I see total #17 usage & total (individual) usage of the #52a & #52b being all washes.... The #52a/b isn't that much longer than the #17 for me to have ranked it ahead of them... With the #52a & #52b individually being hourly routes & the #17 being a 30 min. route, for me, that pushes the #17 back even further in the rankings...

I can see the case for wanting to rank the #62 below the #17, but I can't ignore having the #17 as a half-hourly route... I think 30 min. service for most of the route is that unwarranted - even for however compact it might be to you or anyone else (while it's shorter than most the routes in the network, I personally don't think it's all that compact, as there's too much of the route I see hardly getting much usage.... North of the main line, usage-wise, I see it being the weakest of the options getting to/from the county offices)....

Outside of service to the court complex, I'm beginning to think they made the #17 a 30 min. route, just so that they can interline it with the #11.

2] Oh, I actually do think it'll garner significantly more usage than the #55..... It's more due to the downfall of the old S61, than the potential I (still) see for the totality of the #5 - even with that empty mileage b/w Deer Park av & once it leaves Pilgrim Psych. center (which I see them doing eventually doing something with).... I'd say it started happening before the fact, but it does seem like ever since they fixed up downtown Patchogue, demand for the old S61 in general fell off a cliff... Similar to what happened with the demand for the old S29 north of Deer Park (around Grand Blvd.) falling off a cliff once they "simonized" (as I like to call it) Whitman mall...

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church Personally, I think the 17 stint north of the LIRR would be better tied into the 5. (So I would have the 5 run from Pilgrim straight to Hauppauge, and then to Central Islip, while the 17 would just run from Central Islip LIRR to Islip LIRR station). To cover the portion north of Hauppauge, I would have the 11 run to Smith Haven. There's no need for 3 routes from Brentwood to Hauppauge (5, 11, 58) and 3 routes from Brentwood to Smith Haven (4, 5, 58), and nothing should be ending in Hauppauge (evening/weekend ridership is basically nonexistent)

The connections that the 5 currently makes at Brentwood can be made in either Hauppauge, Central Islip, or Deer Park. The savings from this would be reinvested into an hourly route down Udall Road (basically, a short-turn of the old S27...it could go to Tanger Deer Park or Deer Park LIRR, either one is fine by me)

I'd also try my hand at combining the 52A/B with the southern part of the 17, and see if the connections to points east would help draw more ridership from that section of Central Islip.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 2/18/2024 at 2:48 PM, B35 via Church said:

Hmm... noticing both of y'alls list, the one thing that apparent to me is that you two placed more of a bias/more stock into overall ridership.... I put more stock in route mileage (not saying either is really right or wrong)..... As you probably know, I've long been a proponent of proposing (what I like to call) compact routes & have never been a proponent of just proposing routes I believe will garner high amt's of ridership, regardless of distance (hence why I coined the term "superroute")... So I'm always going to place more of a bias on distance, even if it's 50.0000000001 to 49.999999999 (lol).....

While the apparent consensus is that the #1 & the #4 are the two top dog's (so to speak), I'm actually shocked that you both have the #2 as high up on the list.... I was contemplating putting it (and the #6, for that matter) further down on my list....

For me I tried to consider both route mileage and ridership with frequency as much as possible. It made it a little hard at times given that I think that some routes are more or less in the same general area (which ended up happening a bit more than expected).  I suppose the ranking comes out more towards ridership since most of those tie-breaking decisions on my end ultimately came down to route potential, but that's how I approached it.

Route 2 was one of the tougher ones to rank, because between it, the 6, 7 and 51 I figured they will eventually be around the same (for different reasons). However I didn't see either 2 or 6 doing worse than the 51 overall. What bumped up the 6 was the connection at Central lslip LIRR to other routes and the Ronkonkoma, and it being an airport connection. I think it will take more time for the Airport portion to pick up but I can see it eventually being used decently. However, with the 2 the main thing was that given that the route now provides connections to NICE Bus, you might eventually see more ridership on the route. Especially since it's absolute garbage to get down to the Babylon Branch if you're not near it on public transit. Also while the shift of riders from the former S42 and S20 to Route 2 plus any new riders who start/end their trips west of Babylon due to the new frequencies/coverage will be relatively low, collectively they'll add enough to where I believe it gives the 2 the edge over the 6.

While the 51 is a route with some particularly strong segments and more streamlined service than the previous network, I think the existing section between Smith Haven and Patchogue drags it down considerably. Now IDK what the ongoing redevelopment around Ronkonkoma LIRR will do going forward, but I suppose it'll boost it up a bit. I also suppose the direct connection from Stony Brook to the Ronkonkoma Branch could be somewhat enticing for some in the long run (instead of only having the PJ Branch as a suitable option). However the LIRR's dicking around of service post-ESA and service patterns (to keep it short, SMFH) will probably hurt those numbers. Basically, I see whatever the 51 currently has as being more or less the case further down the line, with maybe a small bump. 

On 2/18/2024 at 2:48 PM, B35 via Church said:

What I am curious about is...

@BM5 via Woodhaven To sum it up, how much more usage do you see the #4 ending up garnering, compared to the #1?

While I read your initial post, your point/snippet regarding the #1 & the #4 sticks out to me.... While I agree the potential of the #4 is nothing to ignore, something else that shouldn't be ignored is just how much longer the #4 is to the #1... If the question was solely regarding ridership (instead of basically ridership per mile, with respect to frequency), I'd agree that the #4 would be ranked first.... Be there as it may, the #1's patronage, even though (the S1) lost ridership, would likely still be close enough to the #4 to where it wouldn't be less efficient than it... The #1 would have to lose a shit ton of ridership (on top of what the S1 already ended up losing) - as quite frankly, there's only but so much ridership to be had out in Suffolk County (which sucks that there's as much of an anti-bus mentality out in the 'burbs in general, but it is what it is).....

I know you don't care for the #5 also going to Smith Haven, but the #5 & the #58 eating into that Brentwood - Smith Haven demand is something else that brings down the #4 in terms of efficiency - in the sense that it's that much less riders that would use it, have those other 2 routes not run b/w the 2 points....

To answer your question regarding Route 4, even though I have the 4 ahead of the 1 it's not a situation where it's running laps ahead. That's also why I say in my rankings post that I could see the 4 beating out the 1. Overall I would put them around the same but the 4 has the advantage way I see it. Potential gains on the Amityville-Brentwood section in particular is what led to my ranking. With Amityville, Wyandanch, Deer Park and Brentwood now having more frequent and later service (especially on weekends - those last S33 buses from Sunrise during the 4-5 PM hours were early but the worst part was that they didn't even travel the full route!), it will definitely be used. On top of that, I can see loads in that section beating out what you typically see on the 1. 

That's not to say the part eastern of Brentwood wouldn't do well either, but it would not be to the same degree as points west. That's where it would lower the overall efficiency of the entire 4 (and it's a decent chunk of the route as well). I'm aware that the 58 and 5 would chip in to Smith Haven ridership, however I don't see it being too much of an issue. For starters, I don't see the 5 in particular taking too much away from the 4 because of its indirect route. Maybe if they live near the 5 perhaps, but the 4 beats it out even with the Central Islip stopover. The 58 perhaps is more competitive with the 4, so maybe that can do some numbers, however I do not see it taking too much away either. Plus any ridership gains on that section west of Brentwood due to more frequent service and better connectivity with points west of Brentwood, would likely make up the losses in mall ridership to the 58.