Convert Lower Montauk Branch to Queens Super Express after East Side Access?

[Forest Park]

The "Lower Montauk Branch" is a 2-track LIRR branch from Jamaica to Long Island City Terminal(two blocks away from the train Vernon-Jackson station).

 

The tracks have not yet been electrified.

 

This ROW is really best for running trains to the currently underserved broad area of eastern Queens, such as south Jamaica , fresh meadows, Queensboro community college etc. The current Queens Blvd express has already reached full capacity.

 

Currently, only a few very empty west-bound (less than 5 I think) LIRR diesel trains in the morning and they return to eastern LI at afternoon. Sometimes there is freight trains. Maybe no one will ride those trains once LIRR east side access is into use.

 

Also, currently many long island commuters take LIRR to Woodside, just to transfer to to their workplace on the east side. After EAS, train will shaft off this burden, so the capacities freed out can be used for transporting from Manhattan to Long Island City( vernon jackson) station.

 

Why not convert this line to Queens Super Express Line, just have to install electric rails and subway standard signals.

 

One possible configuration is: The new subway (assume letter "(H)") line runs from Long Island City Terminal non-stop until the (E)/(J)/(Z) Sutphin Blvd station, then through a few blocks new tunnel under Sutphin blvd to merge with the 4 track line and run express to Jamaica-179St,

 

 

and run further local stops in newly-built Hillside ave extension tunnel, place a stop at intersection of Grand Central parkway and Clearview Expwy, and the final stop at springfield Blvd & Hillside Ave. From these two stations,

connect with private operated highway 'jitney's to the vast area of Eastern Queens. Private 'jitney's can operate well there, because unlike the I-678, Clearview Expwy and Cross island Pkwy are seldom congested.

 

 

 

If it's better to connect to other subway lines---

 

At intersection of Lower montauk line tracks and the M train EL, a new station (I would name it "Glen Ridge Junction", because there is Glen Ridge Park nearby) can be built, both new '(H)' and stops there, to allow transfer between new '(H)' and , and also, there is an existing single track from Glen Ridge Junction to the train Wilson Ave station, on which an airtrain-like shuttle can run to bring passengers between and new '(H)' trains. This is definitely welcomed by people on the M and L line because it add express options for and which are currently without express service.

 

 

What's your idea?

[Roadcruiser1]

Impossible the LIRR is a federally regulated FRA railroad line. You can't run a subway with a railroad line. The signals and the lights are different. A possible solution is to build subway tracks and stations alongside the LIRR tracks which is possible, but with this economy it's impossible. Also it can't just be a Queens line it has to be hooked to Manhattan thats where all the LIRR commuters want to go. Your idea of sending it along with the LIRR to access Manhattan is also impossible. Though even if this happens there should be a local/express/superexpress service to make it competitive but all of it is fictional due the economy and the (MTA)'s financial situation.

[Forest Park]

Impossible the LIRR is a federally regulated FRA railroad line. You can't run a subway with a railroad line. The signals and the lights are different.

I think you didn't get my point: Let the LIRR sell this line to NYCTA, just like the Rockaway Branch, part of which is converted to and Shuttle service. They installed new Subway-standard 3rd rail and replaced the signal with Subway signals, and LIRR trains no longer runs there.

 

Anyway, LIRR has so few riders on that line, and they hate all Zone 1&3 stations except the important ones. Long Island City is not anything important to LIRR.

 

A possible solution is to build subway tracks and stations alongside the LIRR tracks which is possible, but with this economy it's impossible.

 

Also it can't just be a Queens line it has to be hooked to Manhattan thats where all the LIRR commuters want to go..

At LI City, The passengers transfer to train to Manhattan, Just like transfer between court Sq and 23rd St- Ely.

 

Your idea of sending it along with the LIRR to access Manhattan is also impossible. Though even if this happens there should be a local/express/superexpress service to make it competitive but all of it is fictional due the economy and the (MTA)'s financial situation.

 

Yeah, now the financial is bad, but what after several years?

[Roadcruiser1]

You can do that but it is a freight line too. Where is the LIRR going to run the freight then. You also understand the (G)'s current situation right. People around there want Manhattan and they don't want a two seat ride. They demand a one seat ride. Why don't you connect the new line to 34th Street which is one of the most crowded and busiest streets in the US without a subway line. The tourist and people overload the buses due to tourist attractions like the Empire State Building. If you do that then it would be pretty useful.

[Forest Park]

You can do that but it is a freight line too. Where is the LIRR going to run the freight then. You also understand the (G)'s current situation right. People around there want Manhattan and they don't want a two seat ride. They demand a one seat ride. Why don't you connect the new line to 34th Street which is one of the most crowded and busiest streets in the US without a subway line. The tourist and people overload the buses due to tourist attractions like the Empire State Building. If you do that then it would be pretty useful.

 

There are very few freight train everyday, no more than passenger trains. Run the small amount of freight with trucks on LIE.

 

For 34St, Because

1. there are LIRR tunnels under 34th St, it's costly to dig another tunnel

 

2. For the crowded and space-limited 34th St, a quiet lightrail smaller but more frequent than subway is better.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[FamousNYLover]

Yeah. I agree.

When I was on , I saw freight train using tracks near 74th St-Broadway.

[Roadcruiser1]

It's the same as the Bay Ridge Branch. That is why the Triboro Rx (X) is pratically impossible to create. The Triboro Rx is suppose to utilize almost the same tracks as your proposal and it is not possible to create. Just look it up and then you will find out. A better idea is to create more passenger services, but again people are already complaining about the noise. Increase the passenger services by adding more trains and then you are raising some hell down there. Listen it's going to be the same with the Triboro Rx the only way there is going to be stations and passenger services on the Bay Ridge Branch is to run LIRR passenger trains on it.

[metsfan]

No.

 

- A

[Matt91]

You're also not taking into account the deadheads and equipment moves to/from LIC yard, and the fact it's a potential backup route for the diesels. Just because the line sees no passenger service (there was no ridership even when the stations were open) doesn't mean it isn't important

[R32 3348]

It's the same as the Bay Ridge Branch. That is why the Triboro Rx (X) is pratically impossible to create. The Triboro Rx is suppose to utilize almost the same tracks as your proposal and it is not possible to create. Just look it up and then you will find out. A better idea is to create more passenger services, but again people are already complaining about the noise. Increase the passenger services by adding more trains and then you are raising some hell down there. Listen it's going to be the same with the Triboro Rx the only way there is going to be stations and passenger services on the Bay Ridge Branch is to run LIRR passenger trains on it.

The Triboro RX is not impossible to create. The entire ROW already exists, and almost all of it is built to a width of 4 tracks. Most of it only has 1 track installed. You can install two other tracks for subway use and leave the other track for freight service (or install another freight track too for more convenience). Besides, the themselves proposed the idea not too long ago...

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[R32 3348]

Very little is 4 tracks, and the MTA doesn't even own it north of Fresh Pond.

I meant built to a width of 4 tracks, not with 4 tracks installed. Either way, even if we were to have Triboro RX service it wouldn't be for a very long time...

[KGTeleport]

There are a couple of places where the ROW really can only take two tracks. Fencing one off as freight-land, this is enough to make running a reasonably frequent service very difficult.

[Roadcruiser1]

Yes but there are several problems with the Triboro Rx which I am going to point out on the list below.

 

The problems are:

*The (MTA)/LIRR doesn't own the entire right of way. CSX and Amtrak owns most of it for their Northeast Corridor.

*There is no way in hell that Amtrak or CSX would give up their section of track for LIRR or subway service.

*Even if they do there is only one free track on the Hell Gates Bridge so it won't be viable for the people in the Bronx to wait for a subway train.

*Not just that the can't convert the entire track line into a subway line because freight trains use those lines. If they were shut down then people would have to rely on trucks to ship their cargo and we already have traffic problems.

 

So...

 

The only way there would be passenger service is to keep it as a railroad by using the LIRR, and the LIRR would have to get permission to use the right of way of Amtrak/CSX. Once that happens LIRR trains can run from 59th Street Brooklyn to 145th Street Manhattan. Not just that it could share tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge which would allow it to run in a 2 track configuration. A recent study shows that 76,000 people would use this service. If this is a LIRR passenger line it might have a bit less daily ridership A) It's a LIRR service which is expensive The stations would be place farther apart. Though even if it's an LIRR service I believe somewhere between 40-50,000 people might use it daily to get to work.

[Forest Park]

There are a couple of places where the ROW really can only take two tracks. Fencing one off as freight-land, this is enough to make running a reasonably frequent service very difficult.

 

Maybe at those couple places MTA can build EL just above the current tracks to run subway? I mean concrete EL, cuz no one wants to live around Roosevelt ave style ELs.

 

Also, running frequent service with one track is in fact possible with computer controlled short "streetcar". Segment ABABABABAB ... and you just need small land around the stop between A and B. Just make the "streetcar" fast enough between stops to meet demand.

[mark1447]

Im getting sick and tired of seeing all of these fantasy maps. Mainly foamers make them, Like its gonna happen. smh

 

Not all fantasy maps suck, but only some that don't make sense or are a waste.

[MattTrain]

Im getting sick and tired of seeing all of these fantasy maps. Mainly foamers make them, Like its gonna happen. smh

 

Then don't look at them, simple as that.

[mark1447]

Then don't look at them, simple as that.

 

I dont look at the them(depending on what is interested), for a second i thought this was suppose to be about LIRR planning to do something useful with that ROW that runs below the mainline.

[FamousNYLover]

If there was no freight track lines, they have to shipped by freight trucks, freight ships, cargo planes.

I agree those tracks should leave alone.

It will be major chaos without freight trains.

[Forest Park]

Anyone who know why LIRR is much more expensive than subway, even if they travel same distances?

 

Is it because the occupancy is much lower at off peak times, and the demand is more rigid, and the distance is far as well as cost? I believe TRX will have many riders because nowadays outer-borough jobs are increasing faster than Manhattan.

 

 

Yes but there are several problems with the Triboro Rx which I am going to point out on the list below.

 

The problems are:

*The (MTA)/LIRR doesn't own the entire right of way. CSX and Amtrak owns most of it for their Northeast Corridor.

*There is no way in hell that Amtrak or CSX would give up their section of track for LIRR or subway service.

*Even if they do there is only one free track on the Hell Gates Bridge so it won't be viable for the people in the Bronx to wait for a subway train.

*Not just that the can't convert the entire track line into a subway line because freight trains use those lines. If they were shut down then people would have to rely on trucks to ship their cargo and we already have traffic problems.

 

So...

 

The only way there would be passenger service is to keep it as a railroad by using the LIRR, and the LIRR would have to get permission to use the right of way of Amtrak/CSX. Once that happens LIRR trains can run from 59th Street Brooklyn to 145th Street Manhattan. Not just that it could share tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge which would allow it to run in a 2 track configuration. A recent study shows that 76,000 people would use this service. If this is a LIRR passenger line it might have a bit less daily ridership A) It's a LIRR service which is expensive The stations would be place farther apart. Though even if it's an LIRR service I believe somewhere between 40-50,000 people might use it daily to get to work.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Roadcruiser1]

Oh yeah for you people that want to convert the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch into part of the Triboro RX route the line isn't electrified. The line was electrified in 1927, but they turn it off in 1968 and haven't maintained it since. So you would need a lot of new and expensive equipment. The other sections owned by Amtrak and CSX are only electrified around the Hell Gate Bridge area. So you would need to electrify those tracks too. Don't forget about the new stations and tracks even if it is going to be an LIRR passenger route.

 

Also since you asked why commuter rail lines like the LIRR and the MNRR is so expensive from a subway line and the differences check the stuff below:

 

Commuter Rail

 

Commuter rail may be defined as a type of passenger train transit service that utilizes diesel-electric or electrically propelled trains, operating over existing railway trackage on the same rights-of-way used by intercity railway freight and passenger trains. Common practice in the United States and Canada is to use trains of coaches drawn by diesel-electric locomotives, as opposed to electrified multiple-unit equipment. Some commuter rail service is provided by self-propelled diesel-powered coaches. Fare collection is typically on board the train by cash or ticket, and boarding is normally from low platforms.

 

Commuter rail normally accommodates mainly the longest-distance trips made within metropolitan regions during weekday peak travel periods at high overall average operating speeds of typically between 30 and 50 miles per hour, with relatively few station stops. Typical commuter rail routes range from 20 to 50 miles in length. Because the railway track usually is shared with intercity freight and passenger trains, commuter rail normally requires neither the acquisition of new right-of-way nor the construction of new main-line trackage. However, for safety and operational reasons, locomotives and cars must be manufactured to main-line railway standards with respect to size and strength. These characteristics, together with the relatively long station spacings of two to five mites, characterize commuter rail as having the ability to provide a very high level of riding comfort for passengers.

 

Commuter rail is the oldest of all railway passenger transit modes, but presently exists only in corridors with substantial concentrations of passenger-trip origins in the outlying suburban areas of a corridor with destinations in the central business district of the corridor. The closest operating commuter rail system to Southeastern Wisconsin is the system centered on the central business district of the City of Chicago and operated by Metra. Metra is the Commuter Rail Division of the Regional Transportation Authority of Northeastern Illinois. The Metra system is one of the largest commuter rail systems in North America, and is generally regarded as among the best managed and most cost-effective. Metra, as well as some other existing commuter rail systems in the United States and Canada, has made efforts to attract off-peak as well as peak-travel-period ridership and markets its service to attract passengers using the private automobile to the railway service. Extensive park-ride facilities are usually associated with commuter rail services. Some existing systems, including Metra, have begun to give consideration to finding ways of serving non-central-business district-oriented trips in metropolitan areas. Typical commuter rail frequency of service on individual routes may be every 30 minutes in the peak travel direction during weekday peak travel periods, with midday, evening, and weekend service frequencies varying from one to three hours where such non-peak service is operated at all.

 

In the United States and Canada, commuter rail systems are found only in the largest metropolitan areas. Large-scale commuter rail operations, which include frequent peak-period service and a base service during non peak periods and weekends, are found in the Boston, Chicago, Montreal, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Toronto areas. Other commuter rail operations with service provided principally during weekday peak periods operate in the Baltimore and Washington, D.C., areas. New commuter rail operations which include peak-period service and some limited nonpeak weekday service have commenced operations within the last 10 years in the Dallas, Los Angeles, Miami, New Haven, and San Diego areas. Specialized commuter rail services that function more as local-area shuttles have also commenced operations in the southern New Jersey and Syracuse areas. The potential for commuter rail services continues to be considered in a number of other metropolitan areas, including the Atlanta, Cleveland, New Orleans, Oakland, St. Louis, Seattle, and Tampa areas. In other countries, commuter rail is often referred to as "regional rail to emphasize the length of the lines involved and to emphasize the high level of service provided throughout the entire day, as opposed to the mainly peak-travel-period, peak-direction service typicaily provided by existing commuter rail systems in the United States.

 

Heavy Rail/Subway

 

Heavy rail may be defined as a type of urban passenger transportation service that utilizes electrically propelled trains of cars operating over fully grade-separated rights-of-way. Heavy rail may best be envisioned as high-capacity, semiautomated trains of four to 10 cars powered by electricity from a third rail. Because heavy rail systems require an exclusive, completely grade-separated alignment, extensive subways and elevated structures are needed, both of which are costly and disruptive to construct. Fare collection is typically done at stations, and boarding is from high level platforms.

 

The trackage used for heavy rail operations is not shared with freight and other railway passenger trains. Like light rail, heavy rail systems are intended to accommodate all types and lengths of passenger trips within the most densely developed portions of metropolitan areas during weekday peak travel periods, as well as during midday and evening off-peak travel periods and on weekends. Typically, heavy rail routes range from five to 15 miles in length. Normal station spacing for such systems ranges from one-half mile to two miles. Typical average overall speeds may range from 25 to 40 miles per hour. Frequency of service on heavy rail systems typically ranges from five to 10 minutes during peak travel periods, and from 10 to 20 minutes during other times of the day. Extensive park-ride facilities may be provided at outlying stations, but substantial numbers of riders access heavy rail facilities by walking to stations or using feeder bus service. Unlike commuter rail, which utilizes existing railway trackage already in place, the development of a heavy rail system typically requires the acquisition or dedication of new rights-of-way and the construction of new trackage. Unlike light rail, which is intended to operate primarily at surface level, heavy rail requires fully grade-separated elevated or subway locations. Thus, the capital cost of implementing a heavy rail route will normally be much greater than the capital cost of either a commuter rail or light rail route.

 

Within the United States and Canada, examples of heavy rail systems include the Chicago Transit Authority, or "El," the New York City subway system, Metro in Washington, D.C., MARTA in Atlanta, the Red Line in Los Angeles, and BART in San Francisco and Oakland.

[Trainmaster5]

Federal law wouldn't allow a railroad to share a ROW with subways IIRC. PATH and SIR are considered railroads. NYCT is not.

[SoSpectacular]

Anyone who know why LIRR is much more expensive than subway, even if they travel same distances?

 

Is it because the occupancy is much lower at off peak times, and the demand is more rigid, and the distance is far as well as cost? I believe TRX will have many riders because nowadays outer-borough jobs are increasing faster than Manhattan.

 

You've also got to take into account the superior ride quality and the upkeep of the trains the LIRR uses, plus it moves VERY fast and makes little stops along the way.