How Long Until Conductors Become Obsolete?

[Joel Up Front]

ATO is not the problem, and using safety as a reason not to implement vastly overdue reforms is disturbing and more pandering to security theatre, which everyone hates. The Metro collision was the result of the failure of a track circuit that had been improperly maintained, not ATO. The same scenario could have happened on the subway. It's important to remember that signalling and operation are interconnected, but not the same.

 

Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none.

 

CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul. In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made. CBTC will help relieve choke points such as the Cranberry Street Tunnel and improve headways on overcrowded lines such as the Lex and 7th Avenue. We cannot afford to continue procrastinating, especially by keeping redundant employees (the L should be on OPTO, but the TWU is being worthless as always).

 

 

 

Tokyo's combined subways carry over 8m people per day, and that's not counting the JR Lines. The JR Yamanote Line (the busiest in the world) serves 3-4m people per day. New York is around 5m for the whole system.

 

1) I don't know how CBTC would help reduce headways at all. The only thing I can think of that would reduce crowding on the Lex is the SAS being finished, and that's going to be a pipe dream if the ****ing stupid NIMBYs keep pissing and moaning along 2nd Avenue.

 

 

2) This is about New York's subway, not the DC Metro or Japan's subway(s). Shoving people into overpacked subway cars and watching as ATO causes more problems than it solves does not apply to New York's subway.

[RTOMan]

Tokyo's combined subways carry over 8m people per day, and that's not counting the JR Lines. The JR Yamanote Line (the busiest in the world) serves 3-4m people per day. New York is around 5m for the whole system.

 

Yes a system BUILT from the ground up, not using 100 year old technology and trying to combine it with 21st century technology. A fact that seems lost with a lot of people.

 

There is a difference, why do people keep using other cites as a comparison really?

[RTOMan]

Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none.

 

You mean those signs that say DO NOT PULL THE CORD and they pull the cord anyway?

[RTOMan]

And all of these "long overdue reforms" which the proponents of such always ignore the costs to implement are considerably higher than paying people to do it the old way. There is also the issue of steel-dust, dirt, and leaks which prevent these technologies from functioning properly at times. The results of the L line CBTC have definitely been sub-par considering how little it improved throughput. And when shit happens, it's going to be a blast running the entire L line in bypass with NO SIGNALS at all and everything limited to 10mph. But hey, this is the future right?

 

It's not security theater either, it's a legitimate use of personnel since people are not going to read those evacuation signs and even if they do, they still don't know anything about the third-rail or other dangers which they could encounter during an emergency. And it will be another example of when shit happens and a train full of passengers are left helpless.

 

Hey it works in Tokyo so it can work here right?

[SubwayGuy]

Hey it works in Tokyo so it can work here right?

 

Hey same reason people keep trying to get me to give a shit about soccer right? "It works in Europe" haha right RTO?

[SubwayGuy]

ATO is not the problem, and using safety as a reason not to implement vastly overdue reforms is disturbing and more pandering to security theatre, which everyone hates. The Metro collision was the result of the failure of a track circuit that had been improperly maintained, not ATO. The same scenario could have happened on the subway. It's important to remember that signalling and operation are interconnected, but not the same.

 

The same issue could not have happened on the subway because ATO allows faster operating speeds than humans are allowed to run under fixed block signalling. The signal system in DC "lost the train" which is impossible in NYC with fixed block signalling. Furthermore, because the ATO train in DC did not know there was something ahead, it plowed full speed into the other train. And the only saving grace was...a PERSON who worked on the train (a train operator) who applied the brakes in emergency as soon as she saw something was wrong and reduced the impact of the crash from what it would have been if the computers were allowed to run the whole shebang (emphasis on BANG).

 

You're right in that signalling and operation are interconnected but not the same, and that's why you build in as many human check points as possible. Either system is going to require a human. You either need a human to run the thing, or you need humans to come in and repair the computers when they break or when parts fail (which happens very often). You take your chances with the human running because the human running does not make catastrophic mistakes very often.

 

The conductor is not security theater. The conductor can see if a door indication circuit fails, and someone gets dragged. A T/O cannot see that since the T/O will be well into the tunnel by the time that gets noticed. A T/O cannot see a person get stuck between the platform and the gap up to 600 feet away, again they will be well into the tunnel. And if a passenger towards the rear of a train with a conductor notices a problem, they only have to run 300 feet to notify the train crew. Without a conductor they will have to run up to twice as far to notify the train crew, odds are by which time the train will already be moving to the next station and it will be too late to help the person who needs assistance.

 

And evacuation of trains has already been discussed. One person simply can't do it. You can't leave the public unattended on trains to check the emergency exit. You can't leave people unattended on the roadbed to assist other passengers in cars further back cross between cars (the elderly, disabled, etc.).

 

Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none.

 

So your solution for a conductor, who's paid to know the rules and instruct riders in case of an emergency, are a bunch of unpaid members of the public, who are now free to argue about who's in charge?

 

CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul. In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made.

 

If it works, why is it so bad? 5 million people get where they need to go every day with the current system, on or about on time. An umbrella is a damn piece of canvas on a stick and people still use that to stay dry. Say shoes are very BC, perhaps we should get rid of those with computers you wear on your foot that keep a specific temperature?

 

CBTC will help relieve choke points such as the Cranberry Street Tunnel and improve headways on overcrowded lines such as the Lex and 7th Avenue.

 

CBTC is a signal system. It has nothing to do with replacing operating employees with machines and trusting computers to run things. A CBTC train running in ATPM mode can be run by a train operator with a conductor with no problems. CBTC actually contains a safety feature that protects a train from "disappearing" like the one in Washington did. The problem with CBTC lies in its implementation because work trains and older equipment are incompatible with it.

 

We cannot afford to continue procrastinating, especially by keeping redundant employees (the L should be on OPTO, but the TWU is being worthless as always).

 

Conductors are not redundant employees. You can be the first person to be hit with a door when a T/O 600 feet away cannot see what you are doing in back. And no amount of television cameras is going to stop that because on a crowded platform people block the cameras and you can't see.

 

Tokyo's combined subways carry over 8m people per day, and that's not counting the JR Lines. The JR Yamanote Line (the busiest in the world) serves 3-4m people per day. New York is around 5m for the whole system.

 

OK, and? What is the point of this statement? Tokyo has nothing to do with NYC. Tokyo shuts down their subways every night. Tokyo has those "redundant employees" as you call them who literally push people onto trains wearing white gloves. You can't take the good without a bad. Every system does things that work for it and it alone, and NY is no exception.

[Donald]

It is very expensive to put modern technology in a 100 year old system.

 

Let me use an example: You have 2 houses that are both the same size. One is currently under construction and the other was built in 1910. To install central AC in the new house is cheap. To install it in the older house is substantially more expensive. It is always easier to install technology to begin with, not after the fact.

[Donald]

"If it works, why is it so bad? 5 million people get where they need to go every day with the current system, on or about on time. An umbrella is a damn piece of canvas on a stick and people still use that to stay dry. Say shoes are very BC, perhaps we should get rid of those with computers you wear on your foot that keep a specific temperature?"

 

I agree 101%. I hate it when people try to fix things that are not broken. Because whenever you try to fix something that is not broken, you end up breaking it. If the MTA could not even get their security cameras running properly, do we really want them touching the signals? I don't. I want those signals to stay in use until they die. If they last another 100 years, so be it. The wheel is one of the oldest inventions in the world, and we still use it.

[CenSin]

The wheel is one of the oldest inventions in the world, and we still use it.

You forget that the wheel is based on the simplest of all shapes—the circle. You can't make a better circle, but you sure can make better complex systems.

 

EDIT: For technological advances, I'm just going to say the way forward is the best way. These advances are investments that pay off again and again. On the other hand, every day it's not better is a lost opportunity whether it's the millions of productive hours lost from the collective riders due to slower trains using an older signaling system or the rides missed due to ancient Metrocard technology. The MetroCard was, in fact, nonexistent decades ago. Does that mean it was an unnecessary change and that we should've stuck with tokens which were already part of a working system?

[Trainmaster5]

You forget that the wheel is based on the simplest of all shapes—the circle. You can't make a better circle, but you sure can make better complex systems.

 

EDIT: For technological advances, I'm just going to say the way forward is the best way. These advances are investments that pay off again and again. On the other hand, every day it's not better is a lost opportunity whether it's the millions of productive hours lost from the collective riders due to slower trains using an older signaling system or the rides missed due to ancient Metrocard technology. The MetroCard was, in fact, nonexistent decades ago. Does that mean it was an unnecessary change and that we should've stuck with tokens which were already part of a working system?

 

IIRC the token was a perfect circle, too. More reliable than a Metrocard can ever be. You've already answered your own question IMO.

[Donald]

With a token, the turnstile always accepted it. You did not have to stand there and keep dropping your token in 3 times liek you have to keep swiping a Metrocard 3 times.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

"It's shameful how far behind the NYC subway system is comparative to other major cities systems."

 

How so? In most other systems, the last train leaves at midnight. You want to have absolutely no service between midnight and 6 A.M.?

 

And most other systems have NO express tracks. No offense, but it sounds to me that you have not rode any other transit systems lately.

 

Europe is years ahead of us with high speed rails and when things need to be shut down they shut them down and get the work done.

 

And there were plenty of over night trains too. Sitting in my apartment in Florence (Italy) late one night, I decided out of nowhere to go to Milan. I checked for trains online, went and caught a bus to the train station and got on a 2AM train out of Florence and was in Milan by 6AM. EuroStar Italia can get you from Milan to Rome in 3 hours and I even had friends that would take regular trips via train from Italy up to Copenhagen in Denmark. :cool:

 

The Swiss and Germans are known for their punctual, efficient trains. EuroStar from places like Paris to Brussels are quick, clean and cost effective and are being expanded.

 

The MTA just drags its feet way too much.

 

Canada also has good clean transportation (i.e. Montrél, Ottawa, Toronto, etc.)

[Law]

Europe is years ahead of us with high speed rails and when things need to be shut down they shut them down and get the work done.

 

And there were plenty of over night trains too. Sitting in my apartment in Florence (Italy) late one night, I decided out of nowhere to go to Milan. I checked for trains online, went and caught a bus to the train station and got on a 2AM train out of Florence and was in Milan by 6AM. EuroStar Italia can get you from Milan to Rome in 3 hours and I even had friends that would take regular trips via train from Italy up to Copenhagen in Denmark. :cool:

 

The Swiss and Germans are known for their punctual, efficient trains. EuroStar from places like Paris to Brussels are quick, clean and cost effective and are being expanded.

 

The MTA just drags its feet way too much.

 

Canada also has good clean transportation (i.e. Montrél, Ottawa, Toronto, etc.)

 

He was talking about a Subway System not a intercity or commuter train. You can compare such trains/systems with MTA's LIRR or MNRR and Amtrak service i.e. Acela

[SubwayGuy]

That's alright. There will always be those who live here who just think the rest of the world is so much better than us at everything. Never mind that people go to work at all hours of the day and night. Never mind that people's jobs require them to do these things to provide vital services for residents of the "City that Never Sleeps". Europe is just SO much better and sophisticated than America...

 

No wonder people buy foreign shit, it's just "SO" much better than American things...

 

Take some pride in your country and the way it does things. A lot of the things we do over here EUROPE and ASIA could learn from instead of the other way around. With the exception of strikes, major weather, and power outages our subway system has been running continuously for 106 years (and with better planning by the TA's EXECUTIVES and MANAGERS the blizzard fiasco could have been avoided). That's pretty impressive.

[DOB2RTO]

That's alright. There will always be those who live here who just think the rest of the world is so much better than us at everything. Never mind that people go to work at all hours of the day and night. Never mind that people's jobs require them to do these things to provide vital services for residents of the "City that Never Sleeps". Europe is just SO much better and sophisticated than America...

 

I thought we were the same. I really don't see a difference between the USA, UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.......

 

No wonder people buy foreign shit, it's just "SO" much better than American things...

 

Hey Mr. Guy!, I do own a Toyota now, and unlike past Toyota's, I can step on the brake, hear a beep, take my foot off, and the car won't move for a few seconds, before it disengages. Plus it has that system Nissan is touting, that makes the engine slow down, so they car slows even faster. It works to well sometimes. Do you think the 2011 Ford Fusion is really projected to have a higher resale value than the 2011 Camry? Maybe an 2003 Camry, but not a 2011. Who is Ford kidding.........

 

Take some pride in your country and the way it does things. A lot of the things we do over here EUROPE and ASIA could learn from instead of the other way around. With the exception of strikes, major weather, and power outages our subway system has been running continuously for 106 years (and with better planning by the TA's EXECUTIVES and MANAGERS the blizzard fiasco could have been avoided). That's pretty impressive.

 

Everything we invented here, Asia and Europe made better. An BMW, Mercedes, Infinity, Lexus, Acura, etc, costs more than a Lincoln or Cadillac.

Saying all this, when I get me another huge SUV in the future, I will buy American, unless the Japanese come out with something nice. I miss my Expedition so much right now.........

[Y2Julio]

Hey Mr. Guy!, I do own a Toyota now, and unlike past Toyota's, I can step on the brake, hear a beep, take my foot off, and the car won't move for a few seconds, before it disengages. Plus it has that system Nissan is touting, that makes the engine slow down, so they car slows even faster. It works to well sometimes. Do you think the 2011 Ford Fusion is really projected to have a higher resale value than the 2011 Camry? Maybe an 2003 Camry, but not a 2011. Who is Ford kidding.........

 

What happened to your "bus"? sold it?

[DOB2RTO]

What happened to your "bus"? sold it?

 

Trade-in. Got more than I owed, so got monies off the new more fuel efficient vehicle. Looking at how gasoline prices rose, I am kinda glad I did. Miss the roominess, and cargo capacity though........

[Messino]

I thought we were the same. I really don't see a difference between the USA, UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.......

 

 

 

Hey Mr. Guy!, I do own a Toyota now, and unlike past Toyota's, I can step on the brake, hear a beep, take my foot off, and the car won't move for a few seconds, before it disengages. Plus it has that system Nissan is touting, that makes the engine slow down, so they car slows even faster. It works to well sometimes. Do you think the 2011 Ford Fusion is really projected to have a higher resale value than the 2011 Camry? Maybe an 2003 Camry, but not a 2011. Who is Ford kidding.........

 

 

 

 

Im not sure of what your saying about the braking is a good thing or a bad? I think it would be pretty annoying to hear a beep and delay everytime while driving/braking.

 

Ford is #2 right now and knocked Toyota down to #3 in vehicles sales. Ford has revamped their image and are now producing better, more reliable cars. I think Toyota saw their glory days and are running out of steam.

[SubwayGuy]

I thought we were the same. I really don't see a difference between the USA, UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.......

 

 

 

Hey Mr. Guy!, I do own a Toyota now, and unlike past Toyota's, I can step on the brake, hear a beep, take my foot off, and the car won't move for a few seconds, before it disengages. Plus it has that system Nissan is touting, that makes the engine slow down, so they car slows even faster. It works to well sometimes. Do you think the 2011 Ford Fusion is really projected to have a higher resale value than the 2011 Camry? Maybe an 2003 Camry, but not a 2011. Who is Ford kidding.........

 

 

 

Everything we invented here, Asia and Europe made better. An BMW, Mercedes, Infinity, Lexus, Acura, etc, costs more than a Lincoln or Cadillac.

Saying all this, when I get me another huge SUV in the future, I will buy American, unless the Japanese come out with something nice. I miss my Expedition so much right now.........

 

Heh...soon as I get a place to park it, first vehicle I would buy intending to own longterm would be a Ford F-150.

 

Only thing I've bought and paid for myself was a Chevy so I've "bought American", no the European compacts and the Asian asbestos cars ain't better...

[Mark 1]

ATO is not the problem, and using safety as a reason not to implement vastly overdue reforms is disturbing and more pandering to security theatre, which everyone hates. The Metro collision was the result of the failure of a track circuit that had been improperly maintained, not ATO. The same scenario could have happened on the subway. It's important to remember that signalling and operation are interconnected, but not the same.

 

Well guy, safety and security are two major factors in the New York subways these days.

 

Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none.

 

People don't read the map so I don't know if they will read the safety info. If there is a emergency, the passengers and crew would be looking to exit the train.

 

CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul. In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made. CBTC will help relieve choke points such as the Cranberry Street Tunnel and improve headways on overcrowded lines such as the Lex and 7th Avenue. We cannot afford to continue procrastinating, especially by keeping redundant employees (the L should be on OPTO, but the TWU is being worthless as always).

 

The signal system is old but the design works and there is no need to spend hundreds of millions to change the current system to all of this glitzy technology. Killing a few timers would be a start to relieve certain choke points but we know how that goes. CBTC is a neat system when working properly but on the L, rush hour frequency is pretty much the same as with the wayside signals and the work took years to complete. I will say the TWU isn't worthless when their prime objective is to represent the worker and conductors are not redundant. People need to understand that retrofitting and renovating a system over 100 years old for and will have significant costs.

 

Tokyo's combined subways carry over 8m people per day, and that's not counting the JR Lines. The JR Yamanote Line (the busiest in the world) serves 3-4m people per day. New York is around 5m for the whole system.

 

Tokyo is more dense than New York in population so therefore, more ridership.

[RTOMan]

Love the people who make random posts, trying to push some issue get a lot of repsonses then dont show up for a while or dont show up again to conter them.

 

Love it.

[Donald]

"Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none."

 

There's still a chance of an emergency. Airplanes are the safest way to travel, and they crash. I have an idea: Since airplanes are the safest way to travel, why don't we get rid of all the co-pilots? If people actually read the safety information onboard the plane, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none. Right?

[Law]

"Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none."

 

There's still a chance of an emergency. Airplanes are the safest way to travel, and they crash. I have an idea: Since airplanes are the safest way to travel, why don't we get rid of all the co-pilots? If people actually read the safety information onboard the plane, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none. Right?

 

I thought the stewards and stewardesses do most of the evacuating on a plane and the co-pilot is required if the first pilot is not flying the plane. I'm sure someone actually pays attention to those safety cards in front of them.

[East New York]

I will never understand why people compare anything that has to do with NYC to any other place in the world. It will never be a fair and balanced comparison.

 

I thought we were the same. I really don't see a difference between the USA, UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.......

 

 

 

Hey Mr. Guy!, I do own a Toyota now, and unlike past Toyota's, I can step on the brake, hear a beep, take my foot off, and the car won't move for a few seconds, before it disengages. Plus it has that system Nissan is touting, that makes the engine slow down, so they car slows even faster. It works to well sometimes. Do you think the 2011 Ford Fusion is really projected to have a higher resale value than the 2011 Camry? Maybe an 2003 Camry, but not a 2011. Who is Ford kidding.........

 

 

 

Everything we invented here, Asia and Europe made better. An BMW, Mercedes, Infinity, Lexus, Acura, etc, costs more than a Lincoln or Cadillac.

Saying all this, when I get me another huge SUV in the future, I will buy American, unless the Japanese come out with something nice. I miss my Expedition so much right now.........

 

Ford didn't make any of those claims. ALL of the top automotive publications did. Ford quality is undisputed right now, and has surpassed Toyota fair and square. 4 of my family members have Fusions. All but one of them have always been diehard Toyota fans. The other is a GM fan. Every last one of them said they will never buy anything other than a Ford. I have driven them as well. Very sturdy and responsive. I'd take one over a runaway Toyo any day of the week! The F-series trucks are the best trucks on the road, and the entire ford lineup is now high quality for the first time ever. But then again, im biased as I never have and most likely never will buy a foreign car!

 

"Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none."

 

There's still a chance of an emergency. Airplanes are the safest way to travel, and they crash. I have an idea: Since airplanes are the safest way to travel, why don't we get rid of all the co-pilots? If people actually read the safety information onboard the plane, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none. Right?

 

Jets are much too complex to not have a co-pilot. It took decades to reduce the crew from 3 to 2. We don't need to further reduce that!

[Joe]

The conductor will never be truly "obsolete". Instead, the C/R will be replaced by a system that is horribly inefficient, more expensive and incredibly unsafe for the riding public.