How Long Until Conductors Become Obsolete?

[CenSin]

From the perspective of a seemingly objective party:

• In New York, though, OPTO has had a tortured history defined by tensions between the MTA and the TWU. For years, the MTA has had the capacity to run OPTO routes. The L line has been OPTO-compliant since 2005, and with wider train control booths now in every train, nearly every other line could be converted into a one-person route. Yet, at every turn, it has become a major labor battle. (source)
  
• "In an oversimplified world, OPTO, if implemented tomorrow and if the agency could fire all of its conductors, would save the authority approximately $170 million." (source)
  
• The labor union has played the "safety" card too much. What was the worst incident directly attributable to the loss of station booth workers? (related reading)

 

 

It would seem the issue is really about saving money by cutting unnecessary jobs versus fighting to keep those job available. The point of contention is whether the train conductor is necessary. So far, the crux of the arguments for keeping conductors around centers on "what if," while the cuts would result in definite outcomes.

 

The length of our trains plays a factor. Trains' normal lengths vary from 480' to 600' and with one crew member taking control over the whole train would be dangerous in some instances, such as if there's an incident occurring in the last car and the T/O is in the first car, then response time would be doubled if the C/R is gone (obviously the C/R can get to any of the cars opposite of the train's direction behind him).

Not even conductors can see everything at some stations; sometimes they require the aid of a screen and cameras to see the rear anyway. The same cameras and screens that the conductors use to see would be moved for one person train operation.

And how does the response time get doubled? Only the time it takes to walk all the way to the end is doubled. Consider the time it takes to discover there is even a problem at the very end of the train and the probability that the problem just so happens to be the end of the train.

 

NYC is not ready to go conductorless for a while IMO.

So do you think we should proactively move the city to a state of "readiness?"

 

Stop comparing what every other system does, they're nothing like NY and most were built differently from the start.

It irks me when people use "we are not like the others" as an excuse (as opposed to a reason) for whatever difficult problem befalls them. Is it a good thing that NYC is behind other cities in advancements? I know our city is handicapped or "differently-abled," but it's not a permanent condition and shouldn't excuse it from going in the direction it's supposed to go.

 

 

EDIT: I suppose it's time to flame-proof myself…

[RTOMan]

Here let me make it simple for you..

 

FIND the money for these changes make sure they are vandal proof as well as pay the people to maintain them...

 

Let me know how much they will save then...

 

Carry On....

[GarbageTruckJuice]

Is it a good thing that NYC is behind other cities in advancements? I know our city is handicapped or "differently-abled," but it's not a permanent condition and shouldn't excuse it from going in the direction it's supposed to go.

 

It's shameful how far behind the NYC subway system is comparative to other major cities systems. NYC should be at the forefront and have the latest technologies operating. Not the outdated archaic system that exists today. You can play the blame game of who, when, why and all that but it won't change where we're at today.

 

Unfortunately the state the system is in has created an atmosphere that when change does happen it makes people start whining endlessly.

[LRG]

Not even conductors can see everything at some stations; sometimes they require the aid of a screen and cameras to see the rear anyway. The same cameras and screens that the conductors use to see would be moved for one person train operation.

And how does the response time get doubled? Only the time it takes to walk all the way to the end is doubled. Consider the time it takes to discover there is even a problem at the very end of the train and the probability that the problem just so happens to be the end of the train.

 

The response time is doubled because there is no one in the middle of the train to come to aide the situation faster. OPTO doesn't work for long routes with long cars. Opto can work for the 42nd Street Shuttle, but the reason why they have conductors and T/Os is because they switch roles depending on the direction they're going in, and service on that line needs to be moved as fast as possible.

 

It irks me when people use "we are not like the others"

 

Because we're not.

[Donald]

"It's shameful how far behind the NYC subway system is comparative to other major cities systems."

 

How so? In most other systems, the last train leaves at midnight. You want to have absolutely no service between midnight and 6 A.M.?

 

And most other systems have NO express tracks. No offense, but it sounds to me that you have not rode any other transit systems lately.

[Donald]

There's also the imporatn fact that in the event of an accident, the T/O might be dead or unconscious. When the front of one train rear ends another train, who takes the brunt of the crash? The T/O. A condcutor is like a co-pilot who can evacuate the train if the T/O is unable to.

 

Look at the 2009 D.C. Metro crash. The T/O was DEAD after the impact. The passengers were on their own. If the trains had crashed udnerground isntead of outside, the evacuation would have been much harder.

[Messino]

"It's shameful how far behind the NYC subway system is comparative to other major cities systems."

 

How so? In most other systems, the last train leaves at midnight. You want to have absolutely no service between midnight and 6 A.M.?

 

And most other systems have NO express tracks. No offense, but it sounds to me that you have not rode any other transit systems lately.

 

Hes right in a sense. NYC transit system is far behind as it uses extremly old technology especially when it comes to switches and signals. They may have new trains and CBTC but thats pretty much it. Its only recent that they even started installing the FIND system. When they started to move over to the metrocard and the electronic turnsyles, other systems throughout the country and world were already doing this for some years.

 

 

Another thing that people dont realise is that this is NYC, the capital of the world, the MTA moves way too many people during peak hours on a majority of its train lines that have consists of 8-10 cars ...so OPTO is out of the question. It comes down to riders safety. It will never happen no matter how much $$$ it will save the MTA

 

There is no one operating the AIRTRAIN because theres pretty much no one on those trains, even during peak hours those trains are not packed at all and there are only like 2 cars per consist. You have sealed platforms so its very hard for people to accidentally fall on the tracks or wander around the rails.

[Trainmaster5]

S-A-F-E-T-Y is , or was, the mantra we old school employees were taught. That old bromide about " safety in numbers " especially applies to any sort of evacuation. Some of the OPTO proponents seem to overlook that very important concept. When time is of essence would you really want to wait until someone else arrives to help START an orderly evacuation? I wouldn't. Panic sets in rapidly in such circumstances and then it's really every man for himself. God forbid the only qualified person on the train is injured or worse. Who calls for help then ? 1000+ people on cellphones where no one can accurately access the situation ? Chaos. We used to run trains with more than 2 conductors onboard (before my time). In my time we used to have the 2 crew members and frequently a transit cop on board. Would you feel safer on those trains or OPTO ? Case closed. Carry on.

[GarbageTruckJuice]

"It's shameful how far behind the NYC subway system is comparative to other major cities systems."

 

How so? In most other systems, the last train leaves at midnight. You want to have absolutely no service between midnight and 6 A.M.?

 

And most other systems have NO express tracks. No offense, but it sounds to me that you have not rode any other transit systems lately.

 

Please explain how the time of the last departing train or lack of express tracks have anything to do with modern advancements? There's no need for late night service in most areas other than NYC and their ridership does not warrant express tracks, thus they don't have them.

 

No offense but if you took the time to actually read my post thoroughly you would have known both of these are points are irrelevant to the discussion.

[QM1to6Ave]

I'm curious, how many train evacuations occur each year? THe might figure that if that number is low enough, the risk is worth the monetary savings of cutting out the C/R's, even with a lawsuit if something bad were to happen. I think it all comes down to the bottom line in the eyes of the bigshots.

[CenSin]

I'm curious, how many train evacuations occur each year? THe might figure that if that number is low enough, the risk is worth the monetary savings of cutting out the C/R's, even with a lawsuit if something bad were to happen. I think it all comes down to the bottom line in the eyes of the bigshots.

That's exactly what the argument is about. On one end, you have people who want to cut "unnecessary" costs aggressively to increase service and lower fares (who knows how that will turn out). On the other hand, you have people who want to cling on to their jobs (which might not be relevant anymore) or desire more safety and precautions.

 

This argument isn't going to end until the conflict naturally settles to an equilibrium. The MTA will probably implement OPTO in the future, public outcry and union muscle will rollback some of the changes, and it will sway to each side back and forth until an equilibrium is reached. By then, we might have something like OPTO during mid-days and nights and TPTO at other times. I'm just speculating.

[Trainmaster5]

That's exactly what the argument is about. On one end, you have people who want to cut "unnecessary" costs aggressively to increase service and lower fares (who knows how that will turn out). On the other hand, you have people who want to cling on to their jobs (which might not be relevant anymore) or desire more safety and precautions.

 

This argument isn't going to end until the conflict naturally settles to an equilibrium. The MTA will probably implement OPTO in the future, public outcry and union muscle will rollback some of the changes, and it will sway to each side back and forth until an equilibrium is reached. By then, we might have something like OPTO during mid-days and nights and TPTO at other times. I'm just speculating.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Cut costs and headcount. Stop the rising pension bills. The public will support us if we spin it right. Then, out of nowhere, an accident or terror incident. How come it took so long to rescue us ? City Council hearings. A Federal investigation. The pendulum swings the other way. BTW we used to leave the conductor on the platform with sick customers after the train was discharged so the affected train could move out running light and service resumed. With full time OPTO all service would have to stop because the sick person could not be left alone due to legal liabilities. You can't even send them to the booth to await help if there's no S/A there anymore. It appears to be a very sticky situation either way.

[WMATA]

Wasn't there an arbitration hearing some years ago when the MTA began OPTO on the Canarsie line?

[cdi919]

ok for all the people that compare nyc transit to other places. that comparison is wrong. one subway line like the 1 or the 7 carries more people than all of chicago in a day. this is fact. i just saw a chart at a safety class that shows that the 1,6,7 lines each carry more people per day than any other city in the world. plain and simple most other systems were built with opto in it. but they dont move the sheer volume we do. also in the event of an emergency would you like to be left on a train in the dark in a tunnel with smoke while the only crew member goes up 13 flights of dark steep stairs to see if the emergency exit is open? what if he/she does not come back? dont go looking for a conductor then.

[NX Express]

the 1,6,7 lines each carry more people per day than any other city in the world.

The 1, 6, 7 carry more people than Tokyo? Sounds doubtful.

[SubwayGuy]

And people wonder why there are no jobs in this country anymore. But that's not the reason to keep the conductor. The reason to keep the conductor is SAFETY and INFORMATION.

 

-Who answers questions when the automated announcements fail, or people don't understand what's going on?

-Who assists in an evacuation?

-Who monitors the train operator's operation, and makes sure he or she is operating safely and following the rules? (Note even an automated computer running the train can't do this)

-Who assists sick customers, and calls in problems en route?

-Who can respond to passenger emergencies in the tunnel, while the train is moving?

 

The "business" morons that run everything these days seem to have everyone convinced that humans can be replaced by machines in 99% of cases, and in the 1% of cases they can't that any illegal immigrant with no experience or education will do just fine.

 

They can't.

 

There are some things that you just simply need people for. A computer cannot think, it can only be programmed. And there is no way to program a computer for every possible situation since anything is possible. People often do make mistakes, but they catch them and most of the time they are minor. When computers make mistakes it is often catastrophic. And computers DO make mistakes.

 

Yes, that's right.

 

-WMATA's fatal crash was, after all, ATO related.

-A chief electronics technician aboard the Deepwater Horizons oil rig said they had computer system problems before the explosion.

 

Then, when you rely on technology, the people staffing it don't know what to do in the event of computer failure or don't have enough time to react. There is no substitute for a person who knows what he or she is supposed to do...in ANYTHING.

 

If you want to automate anything, automate BANKING and BUSINESS. Any computer can sign the payroll for a company. Any computer can order buys and sells of stock. Hell it already happens now. Just look up Flash Trading. But the suits that run high finance, and who run everything else in this world seem to feel that their meaningless jobs are worth something while something that literally holds thousands of lives at any given time like conductor is "not"

 

The crime is allowing those jerks to convince YOU of it too.

[RTOMan]

The 1, 6, 7 carry more people than Tokyo? Sounds doubtful.

 

The 6 line alone carries almost a million...

[RTOMan]

Wasn't there an arbitration hearing some years ago when the MTA began OPTO on the Canarsie line?

 

It was against the Contract, more money they wasted.....

 

Thats Ok your fares will keep going up and up and up...

 

Go ahead and take yer car , gotta pay the toll to cross thier bridges or go under thier tunnels...

[Donald]

NYC is still far ahead of Washington D.C. In D.C., there are no FIND systems and the aunnocements, with the exception of "Doors closing" are manually made and hard to understand. The LED signs that say the destination on the side of the train are also a lot smaller and harder to read from a distance.

[QM1to6Ave]

I think one problem that the conductors have to deal with, at least from a rider's point of view, is a lack of respect from other MTA employees. Whenever I havew been in a car with a medical emergency or something where the conductor had to come over, the TSS always likes to yell and boss around the C/R, and often tells him or her to go back to his/her position, like he or she is useless. T/O's also seem to cut off the manual announcements made by the C/R's and say their own announcements a lot of times.

 

Again, this is just from a rider's point of view, but I know other riders have made comments about this kind of stuff to me on the train, and it leads to public to see C/R's as unnecessary in some respects. A lot of people even seem to think that "the computer" opens and closes the doors.

[SubwayGuy]

I think one problem that the conductors have to deal with, at least from a rider's point of view, is a lack of respect from other MTA employees. Whenever I havew been in a car with a medical emergency or something where the conductor had to come over, the TSS always likes to yell and boss around the C/R, and often tells him or her to go back to his/her position, like he or she is useless. T/O's also seem to cut off the manual announcements made by the C/R's and say their own announcements a lot of times.

 

Again, this is just from a rider's point of view, but I know other riders have made comments about this kind of stuff to me on the train, and it leads to public to see C/R's as unnecessary in some respects. A lot of people even seem to think that "the computer" opens and closes the doors.

 

T/Os and C/Rs have to work together as part of a team.

 

There will always be some of the supervision that treats EVERYONE (regardless of title) like shit. However many supervisors are not like that. You just won't see it because there's nothing to notice when people are being civil to each other.

[MTARegional Bus]

the would rather pay millions to install cameras and monitors by the T/O so you cant have that "excuse" anymore

 

The MTA can't even take care of the security cameras because of software problems.it wouldn't be any better in the trains.

[geoking66]

WMATA's fatal crash was, after all, ATO related.

 

ATO is not the problem, and using safety as a reason not to implement vastly overdue reforms is disturbing and more pandering to security theatre, which everyone hates. The Metro collision was the result of the failure of a track circuit that had been improperly maintained, not ATO. The same scenario could have happened on the subway. It's important to remember that signalling and operation are interconnected, but not the same.

 

Further, if people actually read the safety information onboard the train, I'm sure they'd be much more prepared in the event of an emergency, the likelihood of which is next to none.

 

CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul. In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made. CBTC will help relieve choke points such as the Cranberry Street Tunnel and improve headways on overcrowded lines such as the Lex and 7th Avenue. We cannot afford to continue procrastinating, especially by keeping redundant employees (the L should be on OPTO, but the TWU is being worthless as always).

 

The 6 line alone carries almost a million...

 

Tokyo's combined subways carry over 8m people per day, and that's not counting the JR Lines. The JR Yamanote Line (the busiest in the world) serves 3-4m people per day. New York is around 5m for the whole system.

[Donald]

"In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made."

 

Why not? The signals work just fine. The MTA has not had a major collission in about 15 years. If the signals work, don't fix them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

"CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul."

 

Why is OPTO necessary? Have you ever been on an OPTO train? I have. It takes twice as long because the T/O has to keep getting up to open and close the doors. WIth OPTO, the quality of service would decline.

[BroadwayBuffer]

"In the 2010s, we shouldn't be relying on early 20th century signalling systems that need to be custom-made."

 

Why not? The signals work just fine. The MTA has not had a major collission in about 15 years. If the signals work, don't fix them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

"CBTC, and eventually OPTO, are necessary in New York's long-awaited technology overhaul."

 

Why is OPTO necessary? Have you ever been on an OPTO train? I have. It takes twice as long because the T/O has to keep getting up to open and close the doors. WIth OPTO, the quality of service would decline.

 

And all of these "long overdue reforms" which the proponents of such always ignore the costs to implement are considerably higher than paying people to do it the old way. There is also the issue of steel-dust, dirt, and leaks which prevent these technologies from functioning properly at times. The results of the L line CBTC have definitely been sub-par considering how little it improved throughput. And when shit happens, it's going to be a blast running the entire L line in bypass with NO SIGNALS at all and everything limited to 10mph. But hey, this is the future right?

 

It's not security theater either, it's a legitimate use of personnel since people are not going to read those evacuation signs and even if they do, they still don't know anything about the third-rail or other dangers which they could encounter during an emergency. And it will be another example of when shit happens and a train full of passengers are left helpless.