Donald Posted January 2, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 2, 2011 I'm sure this has been asked before, but what are the chances that the number of conductors could be drastically reduced through OPTO? Should all future conductors immediately take promotion exams after getting hired to ensure they are not laid off? It's no secret the MTA wants it, and I am sure that many T/Os will have no problem with it provided they get a nice bump in their salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted January 2, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 2, 2011 I doubt it will haven for a long time, maybe 20 or 30 years. A 2 man crew can bearly evac a train, imagine a T/O trying to evac a whole train in a river tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted January 2, 2011 I also doubt it will happen to be honest, but you never know with the MTA. The main problem will be closing the doors in curved stations since the T/O can't see the entire train. And having OPTO during rush hour would basically grind service to a halt since trains will have to spend 2-3 longer in stations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EE Broadway Local Posted January 3, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 3, 2011 I don't think OPTO will happen on the Flushing Line or on the Lexington Avenue Lines. But then again, the CTA did go all-OPTO on March 25, 2000 A.D.. A CTA rail car is slightly shorter than an I.R.T. car at 48 feet 0 inches and an eight car L train is 384 feet long though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexAveExp5 Posted January 3, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 3, 2011 I also doubt it will happen to be honest, but you never know with the MTA. The main problem will be closing the doors in curved stations since the T/O can't see the entire train. And having OPTO during rush hour would basically grind service to a halt since trains will have to spend 2-3 longer in stations. the would rather pay millions to install cameras and monitors by the T/O so you cant have that "excuse" anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 4, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 4, 2011 Didn't some big wig suggest that conductors were already obsolete? It's been talked about for years and all of the newer subway cars since BEFORE the NTT were designed for conductor-less operation. The handwriting's on the wall. The implementation is the hold-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayBuffer Posted January 4, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 4, 2011 Even in the future, OPTO might be expanded, maybe through the assistance of CBTC/ATO, but there are some lines were I don't think it will ever be practical to have less than a two person crew. I've heard some theorize that if it ever gets to that point where there are fewer lines needing C/Rs, the C/Rs on those lines could be T/Os acting as C/Rs and alternate positions with the other T/O, as is done on the Grand Central Shuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share #8 Posted January 5, 2011 I think it would be the most difficult to institute OPTO on the IRT since many of them have stations with very sharp curves (14 St. - Union Square, with the moving platform, comes to mind). As already covered here, a man recently got trapped between the platform and maybe he would not have survived if there was no conductor. Then OPTO would be virtually impossible to implemnt during the rush hour because the huge crowds would block the T/O's view of the back half of the train. Can a T/O see all 10 cars at 42nd St. during the height of the rush hour? I doubt it. When I'm standing by the first car on the platform, I sure as heck can't see the entire 10 car train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted January 5, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 5, 2011 I'm sure this has been asked before, but what are the chances that the number of conductors could be drastically reduced through OPTO? Should all future conductors immediately take promotion exams after getting hired to ensure they are not laid off? It's no secret the MTA wants it, and I am sure that many T/Os will have no problem with it provided they get a nice bump in their salary. Hopefully it doesnt happen anytime soon! When and if it does, hopefully they will just phase the position out as people retired. That way no one would have to get laid off. But I dont see that happening any time in the near or distant future. Distant meaning prior to 2040. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTK246 Posted January 5, 2011 Share #10 Posted January 5, 2011 wait wouldn't an onboard conductor be necessary in case something fails? And doesn't the MTA use ATO anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messino Posted January 5, 2011 Share #11 Posted January 5, 2011 Aint happening. The MTA moves millions everyday. More than any other transit system I bet.. They cant rely on OPTO on 8+ car consists during rushhours thats for sure..Even with CBTC.. There still has to be atleast a T/O there just in case.. Hopefully I will atleast be part of the last crews that will actually operate the trains instead of just sitting there letting the computer do the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 1 Posted January 5, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 5, 2011 I really can't see conductors becoming obsolete in the short term, especially on heavy ridership lines such as the E and 7. I don't think most T/O's will be pleased with having to do OPTO with a full length train plus run times will certainly go up to reflect the extra workload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMATA Posted January 5, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 5, 2011 wait wouldn't an onboard conductor be necessary in case something fails?And doesn't the MTA use ATO anyway? They experimented with ATO in the 60s and it was successful. However, a fire at Grand Central ruined the program. In DC, T/O's must operate an 8 car train manually rather than using ATO. The doors don't line up properly apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted January 5, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 5, 2011 Likely never, lines (tracks) are long between endpoints and some stations, trains are too long, having just one employee on board would be irresponsible. - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share #15 Posted January 6, 2011 Aint happening. The MTA moves millions everyday. More than any other transit system I bet.. They cant rely on OPTO on 8+ car consists during rushhours thats for sure..Even with CBTC.. There still has to be atleast a T/O there just in case.. Hopefully I will atleast be part of the last crews that will actually operate the trains instead of just sitting there letting the computer do the work. I sure as heck would not want to be a track worker if trains start operating themselves. You think a computer can detect people in the tracks? They can't... not now at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Posted January 6, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 6, 2011 I sure as heck would not want to be a track worker if trains start operating themselves. You think a computer can detect people in the tracks? They can't... not now at least. How does this relate to computer controlled trains? Kinda offtopic, This is about if the MTA decides to remove train conductors from trains and have trains go OPTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayBuffer Posted January 6, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 6, 2011 How does this relate to computer controlled trains? Kinda offtopic,This is about if the MTA decides to remove train conductors from trains and have trains go OPTO. It relates, because although OPTO takes place without ATO, if a train was in ATO, it enables the T/O to perform both jobs more effectively. After closing the doors and receiving indication, the train will just proceed and not need to wait for the T/O to assume the controls and take power. Although, I don't see how the T/O could have a clear view of the roadbed from the off-side the cab on most equipment after utilizing those door controls and will therefore be operating blind for several feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex L. Posted January 6, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 6, 2011 Even in ATO, the T/O needs to be in front of the console to push the ATO button and start the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted January 7, 2011 Share #19 Posted January 7, 2011 I don't really see it as a bad thing judging from my current knowledge. OPTO and even operator-less trains run successfully elsewhere. What does a second person do that is so critical anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted January 7, 2011 Share #20 Posted January 7, 2011 I don't really see it as a bad thing judging from my current knowledge. OPTO and even operator-less trains run successfully elsewhere. What does a second person do that is so critical anyway? The length of our trains plays a factor. Trains' normal lengths vary from 480' to 600' and with one crew member taking control over the whole train would be dangerous in some instances, such as if there's an incident occurring in the last car and the T/O is in the first car, then response time would be doubled if the C/R is gone (obviously the C/R can get to any of the cars opposite of the train's direction behind him). Now imagine if our trains were controlled by ATO like the AirTrain with NO crew members on board...then shit would hit the blower...you could forget about the fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R36 Preservation Posted January 7, 2011 Share #21 Posted January 7, 2011 Most major heavy rail lines are OPTO such as London Underground, BART, WMATA, CTA, SEPTA, PATCO and Baltimore Metro. In 1967 the London Victoria was a pioneer in automated operation, being based on the 1960 R22 SMEE automated train and in turn influencing PATCO and BART. Even PATH has turned to the future, with the PA5s having the provision for OPTO in the future, according to the superintendent on a recent shop tour. It would not be until 2017 at the earliest. They also (reportedly) are ATO compatible if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NX Express Posted January 7, 2011 Share #22 Posted January 7, 2011 The length of our trains plays a factor. Trains' normal lengths vary from 480' to 600' and with one crew member taking control over the whole train would be dangerous in some instances, such as if there's an incident occurring in the last car and the T/O is in the first car, then response time would be doubled if the C/R is gone (obviously the C/R can get to any of the cars opposite of the train's direction behind him). Now imagine if our trains were controlled by ATO like the AirTrain with NO crew members on board...then shit would hit the blower...you could forget about the fan. So, in other words, a CR is not needed under normal circumstances. PS A bit off topic, but once I saw an AirTRAIN moving with an open door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayBuffer Posted January 7, 2011 Share #23 Posted January 7, 2011 So, in other words, a CR is not needed under normal circumstances. PS A bit off topic, but once I saw an AirTRAIN moving with an open door. It is also beyond the operation under normal circumstances. What about evacuations? Should one person be responsible for hundreds of people should an emergency situation take place? These are all factors that should be considered instead of this "what's the least needed". Yes, theoretically these trains can operate w/ one person, but it's sacrificing safety both in regular operation since the platform cannot be observed as the train pulls out of the station and even more so in emergencies. Yet the MTA claims to be increasingly safety and security conscious. Not so long ago, there was talk of State legislation requiring a two-person crew on any train crossing a body of water which would end most present use of NYCT's OPTO and any thoughts of expansion. Unfortunately, I don't think it went anywhere, but I would fully support such a law. Every train should have two people on it for the aforementioned reasons. Stop comparing what every other system does, they're nothing like NY and most were built differently from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted January 7, 2011 Share #24 Posted January 7, 2011 It is also beyond the operation under normal circumstances. What about evacuations? Should one person be responsible for hundreds of people should an emergency situation take place? These are all factors that should be considered instead of this "what's the least needed". Yes, theoretically these trains can operate w/ one person, but it's sacrificing safety both in regular operation since the platform cannot be observed as the train pulls out of the station and even more so in emergencies. Yet the MTA claims to be increasingly safety and security conscious. Yes that's a huge issue. With one crew member, you either leave a train full of unsupervised riders while walking through the train to explain to everyone else where to go. There's no one to "bring up the rear" and keep an eye out for people. Not to mention a second crew member can perform important functions like helping people walk between cars who may be elderly or disabled while the first crew member leads people along the escape route at the front. One person can't be in both places at once. And it doesn't make much sense to leave the "head of the evacuating line" so to speak to assist someone towards the rear. At minimum, a second person would have to be there, probably supervision, but in the case of a blackout, blizzard, or some other really serious issue that could take quite a while. NYC is not ready to go conductorless for a while IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted January 7, 2011 Share #25 Posted January 7, 2011 So, in other words, a CR is not needed under normal circumstances. Um yes it is.... NYC is not ready to go conductorless for a while IMO. Exactly. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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