What's It Like Stopping a Train?

[Donald]

For all of the T/Os out there, what is the process like when you first learn to stop a train? It always amazes me that trains come flying into the station and 99.9% of the time they always stop in the right spot without overshooting the station. How long did it take you to properly stop a train? Have you ever overshot a station?

 

Is stopping a train properly hard or is it not much different than stopping a large car?

[Joe]

Air brakes are quite different from hydraulic automobile brakes.

 

IMO, of course.

[Rutgers Tube]

Air brakes are quite different from hydraulic automobile brakes.

 

IMO, of course.

 

Absolutely. Anyone who drives or has driven a CMV or truck equipped with air brakes will agree that the system is a whole different ball game from hydraulics, though both are types of fluid power. With regards to heavy vehicles and combination vehicles with linked brake-equipped units such as tractor-semi-trailers and especially trains, pneumatic (air) systems are preferred over hydraulic for braking applications for a number of reasons. All air brake systems are descendants and/or enhancements/overlays of George Westinghouse's original system, developed specifically for trains. Heavy road vehicles later incorporated a modified version Westinghouse's air brake design.

 

Perhaps a former B/O who is now a T/O can compare braking a train with braking a road vehicle, aside from the obvious handle and pedal.

[RTOMan]

Is stopping a train properly hard or is it not much different than stopping a large car?

 

Given time any Adult can stop a train...

 

Now the trick is stopping it the correct way...

[INDman]

Given time any Adult can stop a train....

 

CHOW!

[Andrew]

THe first time I operated a train was in schoolcar last year on FEB 4th.I made station stops from Carrol Street to Ave X and every one was perfect.We had a R-68.THe next day we had a R-68A and suffice it to say the results were markedly different.

 

My instructors said I was a natural at braking,it was just a matter of fine tuning and smoothing out my operation.The one time in schoolcar I put 6 cars out was at 63rd drive with an R-46.I came in wrapped and shut it of by the conductors board and took FS brake.......a lot of good that did me.

 

I have never overrun a station while posting or on my own since I came out in July.I have had a couple of close callls.Ironically though,the LAST time I overran a station was with a R-68A at 110th street NB on 8th Ave the DAY before our Road Practical.

[TrainFanatic]

Interesting. Thou what's FS brake?

[INDman]

Interesting. Thou what's FS brake?

 

It's when you apply the max braking effort while still having control of your train. When you go into emergency, you lose control of your train.

[trainfan22]

Interesting. Thou what's FS brake?

 

Full service brake?

 

EDIT didn't see the post above mines...

[roadpilot]

When I was in schoolcar in 1992 the motor instructor turned of the electric brake the whole train overshot the station, he was laughing his ass off.

[roadpilot]

I was train operator for 11 months 2 weeks and 3 days. Went back to the bus.

[Joel Up Front]

DOB2RTO said he couldn't take being a bus operator and went to rapid transit. Guess roadpilot is a rare case. What made you go back?

[DOB2RTO]

Absolutely. Anyone who drives or has driven a CMV or truck equipped with air brakes will agree that the system is a whole different ball game from hydraulics, though both are types of fluid power. With regards to heavy vehicles and combination vehicles with linked brake-equipped units such as tractor-semi-trailers and especially trains, pneumatic (air) systems are preferred over hydraulic for braking applications for a number of reasons. All air brake systems are descendants and/or enhancements/overlays of George Westinghouse's original system, developed specifically for trains. Heavy road vehicles later incorporated a modified version Westinghouse's air brake design.

 

Perhaps a former B/O who is now a T/O can compare braking a train with braking a road vehicle, aside from the obvious handle and pedal.

 

That's my calling???? They say B/O make the best T/O's, cause of the familiarity with air brakes. It's not that different, as we do grab and release air, same as we hold and release air brakes on a bus/truck. It is easier to learn to use the air brakes on a bus, than a train though. Also remember, a subway train air brakes, only suppose to apply at 10mph or less (should be 7-3mph). Above these numbers, we actually use dynamic braking (traction motors go in reverse, explaining the reverse traction motor sound, as oppose to the sound you hear when the train accelerates forward). These days of course, a good motorcoach with a good retarder or Jake-brake, can do the same, as one doesn't even need to depress the brake to get the vehicle to slow down. I have heard of some that are so good, you though the coach hit a brick wall............

[GojiMet86]

When arriving at a station, how does the T/O know when and where to begin applying the brakes?

[DOB2RTO]

DOB2RTO said he couldn't take being a bus operator and went to rapid transit. Guess roadpilot is a rare case. What made you go back?

 

Actually he is a common case. Most B/O's who try out for T/O, go back to B/O. Seniority moves waaayyyyyy faster in the DOB. Here you really have to wait for someone to bite the dust...........

 

When arriving at a station, how does the T/O know when and where to begin applying the brakes?

 

Practice, and learning. Going down a line for the first time, you air on the side of caution, and most newbies brake just as they enter the stations, Over time they will adjust to the feel of the stations, and will start braking differently, until they get the right one for that particular station. Plus the train brakes play a huge role. If their good, you can brake later, if they suck, you brake earlier...........

[Rutgers Tube]

That's my calling???? They say B/O make the best T/O's, cause of the familiarity with air brakes. It's not that different, as we do grab and release air, same as we hold and release air brakes on a bus/truck. It is easier to learn to use the air brakes on a bus, than a train though. Also remember, a subway train air brakes, only suppose to apply at 10mph or less (should be 7-3mph). Above these numbers, we actually use dynamic braking (traction motors go in reverse, explaining the reverse traction motor sound, as oppose to the sound you hear when the train accelerates forward). These days of course, a good motorcoach with a good retarder or Jake-brake, can do the same, as one doesn't even need to depress the brake to get the vehicle to slow down. I have heard of some that are so good, you though the coach hit a brick wall............

 

Interesting.

 

As I'm sure Dan knows, maxing out an engine retarder is a good way for a driver to kiss the windshield like a fly on the other side of the glass. I remember being at my tractor-trailer training school when the driving instructor goaded me into tuning the Jacobs all the way on a dry (no-load) truck. He put on his seat belt just before I let off the accelerator, which was the only time I ever saw him strap in. I think I had bruises on my chest from my belt for the next two weeks.

 

Of course that's a slight exaggeration, but you made the point of dynamic braking. I'm sure that this has been explained elsewhere, but does the NYCT equipment use any type of blended braking, much like commuter railroad stock does, and does that equipment use ECP or EP brakes? I know that the NTT's brake in regenerative mode (obviously a different concept than dynamic) down to a certain speed before the electrics cut out and the pneumatics take over to bring the train to a stop. With the MNRR and LIRR MU equipment in mind, in the most simplistic of terms, blended braking efforts are comprised of pneumatic inshots followed by a maintained minimal friction application of only 5 lbs. while the dynamics handle most of the braking effort. As the train speed decreases, dynamic braking fades while pneumatics assume most of the effort. Of course, with any electrically-powered equipment, dead cars rely solely on tread braking. Diesels, on the other hand, are a different story.

[SubwayGuy]

Of course that's a slight exaggeration, but you made the point of dynamic braking. I'm sure that this has been explained elsewhere, but does the NYCT equipment use any type of blended braking, much like commuter railroad stock does, and does that equipment use ECP or EP brakes? I know that the NTT's brake in regenerative mode (obviously a different concept than dynamic) down to a certain speed before the electrics cut out and the pneumatics take over to bring the train to a stop. With the MNRR and LIRR MU equipment in mind, in the most simplistic of terms, blended braking efforts are comprised of pneumatic inshots followed by a maintained minimal friction application of only 5 lbs. while the dynamics handle most of the braking effort. As the train speed decreases, dynamic braking fades while pneumatics assume most of the effort. Of course, with any electrically-powered equipment, dead cars rely solely on tread braking. Diesels, on the other hand, are a different story.

 

There used to be inshot in all of the older SMEE cars to allow for blended brake when the requested braking effort exceeded what was possible to generate using dynamics. However inshot was removed and modern SMEE cars no longer have that feature. The air brakes only come on when the dynamic brake fails, when the train reaches low rate of speed (as you mentioned), or when the emergency brake is activated.

 

Modern NTT's work in much the same way, but with simplified piping and electronic control because dynamics are designed to be the primary means of deceleration. I am not 100% sure on this, but I do not believe it is possible for a blended application of NTT brakes.

[Trainmaster5]

Thank you, SubwayGuy, for the mention of the inshot valve and it's workings. As one who was old-school there are different ways of braking a train, depending on equipment and brake composition. When I became a M/M I already had a tractor-trailer license so braking came naturally to me. I also had a B/O in my class (he went back) who said the same thing. The difference came in our training compared to the guys who came in later. We were told to grab a bit of brake at the beginning of the station and ride it out to the station stop marker.That way you were almost assured of a reasonably smooth stop every time. With the newer method of training guys tell me that they are instructed to grab a full service brake at the C/R's board most times to stop the train. My instructors would secretly drop the B2 circuit breaker out while the student was distracted and invariably the student would overrun the station. Some people would almost wet their pants after this but it was done to let us know what could happen if the circuit breaker would drop out while in passenger service. After the GOH of equipment and the introduction of NTT it appears that the problem rarely occurs, if at all,nowadays but the rule about having your train under control at all times is still on the books AFAIK. I think the real trick is to realize that even if you've operated a particular type of equipment or over a particular line every day each train can brake differently at any time, even within the same trip, so you have to be on your guard at every station. Rain, snow, even the Sperry rail car, can make any T/O appear to be a New Jack or microwave operator. The best advice I ever got was to never get too comfortable 'cause that's when bad things are guaranteed to happen.

[Rutgers Tube]

There used to be inshot in all of the older SMEE cars to allow for blended brake when the requested braking effort exceeded what was possible to generate using dynamics. However inshot was removed and modern SMEE cars no longer have that feature. The air brakes only come on when the dynamic brake fails, when the train reaches low rate of speed (as you mentioned), or when the emergency brake is activated.

 

Modern NTT's work in much the same way, but with simplified piping and electronic control because dynamics are designed to be the primary means of deceleration. I am not 100% sure on this, but I do not believe it is possible for a blended application of NTT brakes.

 

Great explanation, and I thank you for that, Sir.

 

I know that the older cars utilized E-P braking. Do the newer cars still that system, or do they use ECP braking, or neither? And is there are slip-slide and creep controls, much like what commuter railcars have?

 

Thank you, SubwayGuy, for the mention of the inshot valve and it's workings. As one who was old-school there are different ways of braking a train, depending on equipment and brake composition. When I became a M/M I already had a tractor-trailer license so braking came naturally to me. I also had a B/O in my class (he went back) who said the same thing. The difference came in our training compared to the guys who came in later. We were told to grab a bit of brake at the beginning of the station and ride it out to the station stop marker.That way you were almost assured of a reasonably smooth stop every time. With the newer method of training guys tell me that they are instructed to grab a full service brake at the C/R's board most times to stop the train. My instructors would secretly drop the B2 circuit breaker out while the student was distracted and invariably the student would overrun the station. Some people would almost wet their pants after this but it was done to let us know what could happen if the circuit breaker would drop out while in passenger service. After the GOH of equipment and the introduction of NTT it appears that the problem rarely occurs, if at all,nowadays but the rule about having your train under control at all times is still on the books AFAIK. I think the real trick is to realize that even if you've operated a particular type of equipment or over a particular line every day each train can brake differently at any time, even within the same trip, so you have to be on your guard at every station. Rain, snow, even the Sperry rail car, can make any T/O appear to be a New Jack or microwave operator. The best advice I ever got was to never get too comfortable 'cause that's when bad things are guaranteed to happen.

 

Thank you for that information as well, Mr. Master. What would be the reason for the current practice of taking a FS application? Is this to stay on schedule now that timers, WD's and radar spots have reduced speeds, or is this just an updated and accepted practice? And you definitely have a point about braking variations. Of course, I'm looking at the notion from a CMV operator's point of view, as I've never operated a train. But weather, driving conditions and weight all play a huge role in braking differences for a number of reasons, even when operating the same vehicle or combination.

 

Another question: wouldn't a greater grab increase the rate of wheel shelling or flat spots, as well as increase brake wear?

 

Thanks.

[Donald]

So when do most T/Os today begin breaking? Do you wait until the condcutor's board or do you ever start earlier?

[roadpilot]

I wanted to be back in the sunshine, be able to speak to people, interact with the public. I didn't realize i would miss it but I did.

[TrainFanatic]

I wanted to be back in the sunshine, be able to speak to people, interact with the public. I didn't realize i would miss it but I did.

 

Same response I heard a b/o told a t/o a while back which is of course understandable.

[SubwayGuy]

OK I need to correct some misinformation from earlier about the NTT's.

 

NTT's do have a blended brake which (like all NTT braking) is controlled electronically. The blended brake is only active at speeds in excess of 40MPH and applies the friction brakes in conjunction with dynamics at those higher speeds.

 

So in summary:

-Blended brake above 40MPH

-Dynamics only from 40MPH to a few miles per hour

-Friction brakes at the lowest speeds to bring the train to its final stop (because dynamics are not efficient at these low speeds)

 

In response to your question above, all NTT braking efforts are electronically controlled.

 

There is a system in place to detect wheelslip but it frequently overreacts in severe cases like snow in which case the NTT must be reset with a laptop before it can move again (it goes into emergency)....this is one of the big problems with those cars in cold weather. It's also not 100% perfect because the mistiming of announcements at stations is caused by wheelslip throughout a run which still occurs. In those cases, it's not severe enough to cause the train to dump, but it's not corrected fast enough to prevent displacement of the train in real life from where the announcement system "thinks" it is based on wheel revolutions.

 

Electronic control will also detect wheel performance relative to requested motive effort. If a particular axle is not performing within a certain range, power to that motor will be cut assuming there is a defect. While it does identify problems, it can be an issue for a train operator trying to return an OOS train to a yard. Motors can't be reset on NTT's. Well, they can but not by the T/O. Bring your laptops, heh.

[Rutgers Tube]

OK I need to correct some misinformation from earlier about the NTT's.

 

NTT's do have a blended brake which (like all NTT braking) is controlled electronically. The blended brake is only active at speeds in excess of 40MPH and applies the friction brakes in conjunction with dynamics at those higher speeds.

 

So in summary:

-Blended brake above 40MPH

-Dynamics only from 40MPH to a few miles per hour

-Friction brakes at the lowest speeds to bring the train to its final stop (because dynamics are not efficient at these low speeds)

 

In response to your question above, all NTT braking efforts are electronically controlled.

 

There is a system in place to detect wheelslip but it frequently overreacts in severe cases like snow in which case the NTT must be reset with a laptop before it can move again (it goes into emergency)....this is one of the big problems with those cars in cold weather. It's also not 100% perfect because the mistiming of announcements at stations is caused by wheelslip throughout a run which still occurs. In those cases, it's not severe enough to cause the train to dump, but it's not corrected fast enough to prevent displacement of the train in real life from where the announcement system "thinks" it is based on wheel revolutions.

 

Electronic control will also detect wheel performance relative to requested motive effort. If a particular axle is not performing within a certain range, power to that motor will be cut assuming there is a defect. While it does identify problems, it can be an issue for a train operator trying to return an OOS train to a yard. Motors can't be reset on NTT's. Well, they can but not by the T/O. Bring your laptops, heh.

 

Maybe Walder will have an RCI Android App developed so he can start claiming about how that's also an expendable title and how T/O's should consider hard reset's to be part of their job responsibilities. Truly an OPTO detail!

 

But back to reality, thanks for your awesome response, once again.

 

I was recently explaining to someone how the automated announcement system on the NTT's work while we were riding a downtown- that was sopping wet and still half-covered in slush when it entered Grand Central. We had were just passing 28th Street when the announcement for 14th came on briefly before the conductor hit the bell to kill the recording. I didn't realize it at the time, but the wheel-slip effect really does explain why I hear off-timed announcements more frequently during the winter months and other times of heavy rain.

 

Is this electronic control detection a setting that can be cut out or bypassed?

[RTOMan]

So when do most T/Os today begin breaking? Do you wait until the condcutor's board or do you ever start earlier?

 

Depends on a few things track condition, speed restrictions, weather conditons...