$500 for farebeaters...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But on the topic of school metro's, I just noticed a comment about good grades/attendance=metro. Let me give you something to think about here. There are kids(I was one of them) that have bad attendance, but pass all their classes. There are those that have perfect attendance, but dont pass most of their classes. What could the system do for these cases if the Cards were grade/attendance based?

 

As someone who has taught off and on through the years (and may start up again on the side soon tutoring students), I think a combination of measures should be looked at when assessing a student's worthiness of receiving a Metrocard. Grades and attendance should be looked at but it shouldn't be the only factor. My main argument is that the cards shouldn't be automatically given out and their use should be monitored. It should be interesting to see what will happen when smart cards are introduced...

[checkmatechamp13]

Quite frankly I don't. Like I said they are abused and that is a good reason to get rid of them. I say come up with a new system altogether. Student Metrocards should not be a given. I would start with Kids going to different schools out of their zones. If they're not making the grade, ship them to their zoned school. For kids in zoned schools that still need Metrocards, if they aren't making the grade or have too many absences, the Metrocards would be taken away. Most importantly I would find a way to better identify who is using them. None of this passing your Metrocard to some other guy nonsense. The crackdown would be severe and is needed. You want to argue that they're needed for school and I agree 110%. They're needed for school and school related issues and NOTHING else. No hanging out and none of that. Wanna do that?? Pay for it.

 

That's my position and I think that's the position of many. Weed out the abuse and you'd see a drop overall in farebeating (and I do mean overall including adults) and better students overall contributing overall to society. :tup:

 

Well, I know you don't.

 

As far as who's using them, that would be too much trouble. I really don't think there is that much passing around going on. The person you're passing it to has to look like they're still in high school or else there's a good chance the B/O will confront you (and chances are the confrontation would be worse than if you had said "I don't have a MetroCard"). I mean, if a kid gets on with books and stuff, there's a pretty good chance he's legitimately going to school.

 

By the way, last week was Regents week, so if this has just been happening last week, that's why (we show up, take the test and leave). If it's been happening all along, then all I can say is that it doesn't happen like that on the routes I ride.

 

As for what regulations you'd put on them, there's nothing to really argue about.

 

But on the topic of school metro's, I just noticed a comment about good grades/attendance=metro. Let me give you something to think about here. There are kids(I was one of them) that have bad attendance, but pass all their classes. There are those that have perfect attendance, but dont pass most of their classes. What could the system do for these cases if the Cards were grade/attendance based?

 

Like I said, I'd have it based on teacher's recommendations in cases like that. If you have an average of B or higher, you get it regardless of attendance. If the teachers see that you're showing up every day and at least making an attempt to pass, then they should give you the recommendation with no problem.

 

Unfortunately, if you have kids who are troublemakers and barely passing their classes, I don't know what to say for that. There's the chance this could inspire them to behave well so they get a Student MetroCard, but there's a greater chance this could push them over the edge to drop out. But then as GC said, often tthey interfere with the learning of other students.

 

"Too bad for them" in the sense of, people (i.e, the riders that AREN'T out here farebeating) aren't oblivious to the tactics farebeaters are using to get over.... It's a way of sayin (from a non-farebeater to a farebeater) "yeah, I see you" - and I don't mean "see" solely in the literal sense of the word either.....

 

But the thing is why would they care? I mean, you (non-farebeaters) have the knowledge that I'm (referring to farebeaters) trying to get a free ride, but are you really going to do anything about it? I've read comments (on newspaper articles and occasionally forums like these) where somebody acts all heroic and says "What I see a farebeater, I shout it out so everybody knows". And I'm like "So? They got their free ride. Do you really think they're going to care?" Everybody knows nobody's going to enforce anything (and I doubt the MTA's going to read this thread and suddenly get the idea for enforcement) so what's the point?

 

They don't need to worry about low balances on the cards as long as they use the 3 rides maximum per day.

 

And that was also the point I was disputing: It is possible to have more than 1 after-school activity. I'm able to manage with the transfers, but I'm just pointing that out.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Everybody knows nobody's going to enforce anything (and I doubt the MTA's going to read this thread and suddenly get the idea for enforcement) so what's the point?

 

That's the point... At some point if you keep raising the fare and the paying public keeps seeing hoards of people farebeating, at some point something has to give. I mean the other night I was pissed to say the least that I got on the S54 with my hands full with my laptop bag, a few items I had bought from the market, my umbrella and gloves (yeah it was cold and raining ) and dipped my card and then one stop later this guy just gets on and takes a seat without paying. :mad:

 

Yeah I was about to say something to the B/O and the guy but as I said before the B/O is a nice guy who I've had many times before so I didn't say anything for that reason to try to keep the peace, but yeah, after a while if you're paying and you see others not, it does become rather annoying because the reality is fares are going up and farebeating does contribute to it and I do have a problem paying for someone's ride. The paying public has expenses too, and it shouldn't be on us to pay our fare and everyone elses to boot.

[Gorgor]

That's the point... At some point if you keep raising the fare and the paying public keeps seeing hoards of people farebeating, at some point something has to give. I mean the other night I was pissed to say the least that I got on the S54 with my hands full with my laptop bag, a few items I had bought from the market, my umbrella and gloves (yeah it was cold and raining ) and dipped my card and then one stop later this guy just gets on and takes a seat without paying. :mad:

 

Yeah I was about to say something to the B/O and the guy but as I said before the B/O is a nice guy who I've had many times before so I didn't say anything for that reason to try to keep the peace, but yeah, after a while if you're paying and you see others not, it does become rather annoying because the reality is fares are going up and farebeating does contribute to it and I do have a problem paying for someone's ride. The paying public has expenses too, and it shouldn't be on us to pay our fare and everyone elses to boot.

 

You can't really blame the driver though. What would you do if you were in charge of driving a full bus load of people to their destination and some tough looking thug just walked on. Would you delay everyone by confronting him, which could possibly lead to violence and put every innocent person on that bus in danger. As much as you and everyone else would love to have the driver do something to do something, the potential consequences of that action are definitely not worth $2.25 over.

 

Now what the MTA should do is have police officers in groups at certain stops on well known fare beating lines and anytime someone got on without paying, the driver could radio ahead the description of the guy and have the cops get him at the nearest designated location. It's so simple. Not only would this punish fare beaters, but if publicized this would discourage future fare beating. Yes, some of you will say that the cops should be used for more serious issues rather than this, but over time this would not only save tax payer money, but improve the quality of the public transportation system in New York City as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You can't really blame the driver though. What would you do if you were in charge of driving a full bus load of people to their destination and some tough looking thug just walked on. Would you delay everyone by confronting him, which could possibly lead to violence and put every innocent person on that bus in danger. As much as you and everyone else would love to have the driver do something to do something, the potential consequences of that action are definitely not worth $2.25 over.

 

Now what the MTA should do is have police officers in groups at certain stops on well known fare beating lines and anytime someone got on without paying, the driver could radio ahead the description of the guy and have the cops get him at the nearest designated location. It's so simple. Not only would this punish fare beaters, but if publicized this would discourage future fare beating. Yes, some of you will say that the cops should be used for more serious issues rather than this, but over time this would not only save tax payer money, but improve the quality of the public transportation system in New York City as well.

 

Well yes, I know, that's why I didn't bother, but I'm not even sure if he pressed the button registering the farebeater... That's what irked me even more.

[checkmatechamp13]

Now what the MTA should do is have police officers in groups at certain stops on well known fare beating lines and anytime someone got on without paying, the driver could radio ahead the description of the guy and have the cops get him at the nearest designated location. It's so simple. Not only would this punish fare beaters, but if publicized this would discourage future fare beating. Yes, some of you will say that the cops should be used for more serious issues rather than this, but over time this would not only save tax payer money, but improve the quality of the public transportation system in New York City as well.

 

If I were a farebeater and heard the B/O radioing them, I'd just get off at the stop before the designated location, walk past the stop with the cops, and then get another bus at the next stop (then again, I don't know how many people would think like that)

 

That's the point... At some point if you keep raising the fare and the paying public keeps seeing hoards of people farebeating, at some point something has to give. I mean the other night I was pissed to say the least that I got on the S54 with my hands full with my laptop bag, a few items I had bought from the market, my umbrella and gloves (yeah it was cold and raining ) and dipped my card and then one stop later this guy just gets on and takes a seat without paying. :mad:

 

Yeah I was about to say something to the B/O and the guy but as I said before the B/O is a nice guy who I've had many times before so I didn't say anything for that reason to try to keep the peace, but yeah, after a while if you're paying and you see others not, it does become rather annoying because the reality is fares are going up and farebeating does contribute to it and I do have a problem paying for someone's ride. The paying public has expenses too, and it shouldn't be on us to pay our fare and everyone elses to boot.

 

Why did we need to know that? There are plenty of times I dipped in a MetroCard when my arms were full.

 

As far as not registering him, how far was he traveling (was he still on the bus when you left). For short trips, some drivers don't want to count them because it'll skew the statistics (but then again, if drivers were more liberal with that button, maybe the S54 could've been saved on weekends)

 

By the way, what's the point of complaining then if you know they're not going to do anything? (In case you forgot, it was in reference to what you said about drivers having too much runtime on the schedule)

[Gorgor]

If I were a farebeater and heard the B/O radioing them, I'd just get off at the stop before the designated location, walk past the stop with the cops, and then get another bus at the next stop (then again, I don't know how many people would think like that)

 

The designated locations would move around, just like fare inspectors on SBS. And even if a fare beater would get off and walk to the stop after the police, that would inconvenience them enough to encourage them to pay to avoid the hassle.

[B35 via Church]

But the thing is why would they care? I mean, you (non-farebeaters) have the knowledge that I'm (referring to farebeaters) trying to get a free ride, but are you really going to do anything about it? I've read comments (on newspaper articles and occasionally forums like these) where somebody acts all heroic and says "What I see a farebeater, I shout it out so everybody knows". And I'm like "So? They got their free ride. Do you really think they're going to care?" Everybody knows nobody's going to enforce anything (and I doubt the MTA's going to read this thread and suddenly get the idea for enforcement) so what's the point?

Like I said, what the readers do with the information provided, I have no control over...

The farebeaters that act like what they're doing is so inventive & try to make out like it's somethin so secretive (not talking about the ones that simply hop the back of the bus) is more what I'm referring to.... you get enough people that get hip to what (and how) they're doin it, you will get some farebeaters that would stop believe it or not, based out of fear alone.... Not in what the MTA would do, but moreso knowing that the word is out there.... Does that classify the majority of farebeaters, No it don't - nowhere close to it... Does it matter to the MTA how they're farebeating? No it's doesn't... But it's still one less person you're makin think twice (or making stop completely) doin the shit.....

 

As far as this whole "why would they care" & this whole "what's the point" bit.....

If you're gonna exude that type of an attitude, then what's the point of sharing/posting anything on a forum... I mean seriously....

 

You're still trying to make what I said there about the MTA.... I already explained what I meant & that's that...

[LTA1992]

 

Like I said, I'd have it based on teacher's recommendations in cases like that. If you have an average of B or higher, you get it regardless of attendance. If the teachers see that you're showing up every day and at least making an attempt to pass, then they should give you the recommendation with no problem.

 

 

 

But that brings in another variable, how much a teacher thinks a kid deserves a card and how much a teacher likes a student. Then there are just the douche bag teachers who hate their job and take it out on their students.

 

Then there are the students who no matter what need the cards just because of distance. There are quite a few variables to think about when it comes to a system like that.

[checkmatechamp13]

But that brings in another variable, how much a teacher thinks a kid deserves a card and how much a teacher likes a student. Then there are just the douche bag teachers who hate their job and take it out on their students.

 

Then there are the students who no matter what need the cards just because of distance. There are quite a few variables to think about when it comes to a system like that.

 

That's why I said that it should be 3/4 of the teachers or so, or a certain number of teachers. In elementary school, there's only 1 teacher, so basically everybody would receive transportation (so you don't have to depend on 1 teacher liking the student and also because everybody should at least get an elementary school education)

 

In middle and high school, there are multiple teachers, so unless it's a messed up school where all of the teachers hate their job, the student should be able to get one (and if not 3/4, lower it to 1/2 or 1/3)

 

As far as this whole "why would they care" & this whole "what's the point" bit.....

If you're gonna exude that type of an attitude, then what's the point of sharing/posting anything on a forum... I mean seriously....

 

You're still trying to make what I said there about the MTA.... I already explained what I meant & that's that...

 

Well, that's why I made it about the MTA, because I didn't feel that anybody would stop just because other passengers knew what they were up to.

[Gorgor]

So basically if a student does something stupid without thinking, or perhaps induced by peer pressure, the teachers will obviously dislike him and not give him a metrocard. If his family is so poor that they can't afford to pay for transportation then he's gonna cut class, or only go a couple days a week, end up failing, and turn to a life of crime on the street.

 

Seriously, that is the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, ever.

 

If these kids are in school that means they're NOT on the streets and engaging in violent and illegal behavior during the day. Cut student metrocards or institute some bullshit like this and crime will rise, not to mention huge public outcry over this.

 

You make it sound like public transportation is dirt cheap, and anyone can afford it. There are some families that would have to choose which is more important: food or education, and we all know which one they'd choose.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why did we need to know that? There are plenty of times I dipped in a MetroCard when my arms were full.

 

The point was why did I even bother to pay?? That's why I was pissed. I mean if he's gonna let everyone on and not bother, I should've just gotten on with my stuff instead going through the aggravation of trying to balance everything and dip the stupid card. That was the point. In fact if I have him again, I'm just getting on and not paying and if he says something then I'll say well what's the problem? You let everyone else on without paying. :mad:

 

As far as not registering him, how far was he traveling (was he still on the bus when you left). For short trips, some drivers don't want to count them because it'll skew the statistics (but then again, if drivers were more liberal with that button, maybe the S54 could've been saved on weekends)

 

Skew what data?? If they're riding, the least they can do is press the friggin button... If they get on, that means they're a passenger, even if it's just one stop. And yeah perhaps if they pressed the button, the S54 weekend service could've been saved but soon it won't matter to me anyway because I'll be in Riverdale. :cool:

 

By the way, what's the point of complaining then if you know they're not going to do anything? (In case you forgot, it was in reference to what you said about drivers having too much runtime on the schedule)

 

Not sure what in the world you're talking about... :confused:

[checkmatechamp13]

You make it sound like public transportation is dirt cheap, and anyone can afford it. There are some families that would have to choose which is more important: food or education, and we all know which one they'd choose.

 

I'm not implying anything. You really think I'd be willing to pay $750 a year to get to school? I'd say f*ck that and walk, and if it's snowing or raining very heavily, then I'd just not go to school.

 

I would prefer that Student MetroCards be kept exactly as they are right now, but in the event that we had to compromise, it'd be better to do that than to cut it for everybody.

 

I've mentioned that there are two sides to the argument, and hopefully it doesn't come down to having this argument (because the MTA threatens to cut them).

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/519583-post127.html

"Unfortunately, if you have kids who are troublemakers and barely passing their classes, I don't know what to say for that. There's the chance this could inspire them to behave well so they get a Student MetroCard, but there's a greater chance this could push them over the edge to drop out. But then as GC said, often they interfere with the learning of other students."

 

And here: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/519335-post106.html

"But you could also argue that the kids are likely to end up dropping out anyway and are just going to school because they are mandated to, and not because they actually want to learn (and that's why I offered the suggestion of teachers' recommendations, so the students who aren't too smart, but are basically good kids and work reasonably hard can still get the Student MetroCards)

 

Then again, you could argue that you're keeping them off the streets by having them in school."

 

1) The point was why did I even bother to pay?? That's why I was pissed. I mean if he's gonna let everyone on and not bother, I should've just gotten on with my stuff instead going through the aggravation of trying to balance everything and dip the stupid card. That was the point. In fact if I have him again, I'm just getting on and not paying and if he says something then I'll say well what's the problem? You let everyone else on without paying. :mad:

 

2) Skew what data?? If they're riding, the least they can do is press the friggin button... If they get on, that means they're a passenger, even if it's just one stop. And yeah perhaps if they pressed the button, the S54 weekend service could've been saved but soon it won't matter to me anyway because I'll be in Riverdale. :cool:

 

3) Not sure what in the world you're talking about... :confused:

 

1) Go ahead. I'm not stopping you.

 

2) If you're riding for one stop and aren't paying, I doubt you depend on that bus being there. Now if you ride for a mile without paying, then at least it's something that would've been much harder without a bus.

 

You have a route where the average bus carries 2 seniors, 1 random passenger, and 2 passengers who just happened to see the bus, got on, and then got off one stop later without paying. On another route, the average bus carries 2 seniors, 1 random passenger, and 2 farebeater who are traveling for 2 miles. Which route would you save? Obviously the second one because even though they didn't pay (just like the ones on the first bus didn't pay) at least they're using it to travel a distance that's hard to cover on foot.

 

3) You're complaining about the MTA not doing anything about farebeating. I'm complaining about buses being allowed too much runtime and you gave me that exact response.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1) Go ahead. I'm not stopping you.

 

I'm sure you'd like that...

 

2) If you're riding for one stop and aren't paying, I doubt you depend on that bus being there. Now if you ride for a mile without paying, then at least it's something that would've been much harder without a bus.

 

You have a route where the average bus carries 2 seniors, 1 random passenger, and 2 passengers who just happened to see the bus, got on, and then got off one stop later without paying. On another route, the average bus carries 2 seniors, 1 random passenger, and 2 farebeater who are traveling for 2 miles. Which route would you save? Obviously the second one because even though they didn't pay (just like the ones on the first bus didn't pay) at least they're using it to travel a distance that's hard to cover on foot.

 

What in the world are you talking about?? Who is going to care what distance a farebeater is going?? It's like saying you stole one item instead of several items. How much you stole is immaterial. You still stole period... Same thing here... Farebeating is farebeating, regardless of the distance. Sometimes you really make no sense at all. I know you're trying to be logical and all, but this is just not logical in terms of applying it to the situation at hand. :eek:

 

3) You're complaining about the MTA not doing anything about farebeating. I'm complaining about buses being allowed too much runtime and you gave me that exact response.

This is two different things... Eventually if enough people aren't paying they'll be forced to do something. It's just a matter of how long are they going to let the matter fester and how many fare hikes is the general public going to endure before they get sick of it. Get enough people making a stink about it and they'll do something. They won't have a choice but to act.

[checkmatechamp13]

1) I'm sure you'd like that...

 

2) What in the world are you talking about?? Who is going to care what distance a farebeater is going?? It's like saying you stole one item instead of several items. How much you stole is immaterial. You still stole period... Same thing here... Farebeating is farebeating, regardless of the distance. Sometimes you really make no sense at all. I know you're trying to be logical and all, but this is just not logical in terms of applying it to the situation at hand. :eek:

 

3) This is two different things... Eventually if enough people aren't paying they'll be forced to do something. It's just a matter of how long are they going to let the matter fester and how many fare hikes is the general public going to endure before they get sick of it. Get enough people making a stink about it and they'll do something. They won't have a choice but to act.

 

1) The MTA isn't getting any extra money from you, so what difference does it make. You're only hurting yourself if the B/O doesn't press the button because then it's one less reason to keep the service (and I don't use the S54 so it doesn't affect me either way)

 

2) We're arguing 2 different things. I'm arguing whether or not a farebeater going a few blocks should be counted for ridership purposes, and you're arguing about stealing.

 

What I'm arguing is whether the person has a legitmate need to steal the service. If a kid runs out of rides because they're going to an after-school activity or if it's somebody who truly can't afford the ride and has to get to work or do a basic activity (say food shopping or a medical appointment) then yeah, it's stealing, but it's out of necessity.

 

3) The fare is still not much higher than other transit systems in the country (at least in the major cities. Obviously a small system is going to have a lower fare), and considering NYC's high cost of living, that's an accomplishment.

 

Plus, for the fare we pay, we get pretty good quality service. Aside from maybe a few cities in the Northeast (like say, Philly and Boston), most transit systems have service levels that are pretty low (you'll have SI levels of service in the Downtown area). Much of it is because we're so dense, so you have more ridership to justify the service levels.

 

The MTA has the highest farebox recovery ratio of any public transit agency in the country. It has the resources to be able to withstand some farebeating.

[qjtransitmaster]

Outside of NYC you be waiting all day or night as sharing a cab/taxi in the 'burus' and my neck of the woods in Dutchess you sometimes have to share a ride. And the kicker is, you still pay full price even sharing with 2-3 other riders.:mad:

 

Back to topic. A big help in combating the farebeating 'crisis' imo, is more pre boarding vending machines. Not just at SBS locations either. It should be expanded to busy stops i.e Kings Plaza, Fordham Plaza, SI Mall, Williamsburg Plaza, etc. even on local buses. You can raise the fine all you want but a better job of NYPD/MTA Police and the Bus Drivers is what needed more than needed. While in a huge transit system like the New York (NYCT) you never end farebeating. However the problem can be controlled better though.

UGH I know what you mean I got burned by the LOOP I will NEVER USE EM AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! Too many times of being close to stranded!!!!!!!! Hence why bus service there needs to improve or merge with intercity or regional lines to kick those taxi ripoff guys to the curb!!!!! Sorry for that

 

In plain english, they won't ride them because it represents a local bus.

 

 

Sure they can fight it.... But if the charged won't pay it after being found guilty, they'll face jail time, that's all..... Simple.

 

I'm talking 100% of those people by the way.

 

 

.....was my basic point all along, regarding the side discussion & the excuses that were being presented within it.

Thanks for translating. Agreed

Out of the three, I think it's actually the S46 that has more farebeaters. Maybe it's because it serves more schools.

 

As far as denying people transport, I've heard many times that the policy is to just state the fare and keep it moving. I'm not a B/O obviously so obviously I'm just going by what's been posted on these forums.

 

This is the last post I'll be making about farebeating in this thread, but as I've always said, it should be up to the discretion of the driver. If somebody gets on with fancy shoes and a new cell phone, then don't let them ride, but if somebody looks like they're legitimately trying to get somewhere (school-related, an after-school job, etc) then let them on as long as they're not causing a disturbance.Nobody try to say anything because I'm not saying anything else on this matter.

 

 

 

I'd just like to point out that on SI, the farebox recovery route of the express buses is only slightly higher than that of the local routes (I'm too tired to figure it out now, but I believe it's 50% for the local routes and 45% for the express routes. On the weekends, the express buses actually have a higher FRR than the SI local routes)Cause ppl DO NOT want to put up with the ferry's infrequency on the weekends!!!

 

SI express routes aren't really any more expensive than the routes in the other boroughs. They travel further, but they get more passengers so the cost is lower.

 

As far as off-peak and reverse-peak ridership goes, discounts during those times could help boost ridership, but a certain somebody doesn't want "riff-raff" riding his beloved express routes.

 

 

1) If you're going to Lower Manhattan, you have to pay another fare if you take Metro-North. You only save money if you work (and do most of your other daily activities) within walking distance of Grand Central (or home), or else you're better off (financially) buying a weekly express bus pass. So in some ways it's a mattter of convenience, and in other ways it's a matter of cost.

 

2) Aside from the fact that there are express buses that parallel subway lines, how do you know he's not willing to pay for the cost of more subway lines (or light rail which is a stupid idea if you're trying to get people to Manhattan)? The long-term savings are definitely worth it (not to mention additional real estate tax and things like that).

 

 

 

Actually, I've seen that happen a few times. Whether it was an error with the farebox or they somehow managed to take 3 rides at 07:30 in the morning I don't know, but in any case the B/O just let them on (I mean, where else would a teenager with books, trying to use a Student MetroCard be going at 07:30 in the morning?)

 

I've never had that problem, but in any case I'm just saying it's possible.

 

 

 

How'd you get a Student MetroCard like that? You have Satuurday school or something? Mine works Monday-Friday from 05:30-20:30, with 3 trips per day.

 

 

 

This is another issue that it raises: If you have a zero tolerance policy, what do you do on those routes where the bus is so full that the only way to get in is through the back? Are you really going to start fining people who intend to pay but physically can't (and they might have to make a transfer so they'll pay anyway).[/QUOTE] Reply to bold 1) True but to an extent many drivers already do just that plus those ppl should have special cards like student metrocard. I think they should do a similar program to what NJT does which gives free passes to ppl in after school or job placement programs ppl tring to be productive.

 

bold #2) Invalid argument the travel habit of riff-raff is off-peak and during mostly hours when via 8 and high class folk aren't riding. Besides almost everyone uses SI express lines since the ferry SUCKS BALLZ!!!!!!!! Can't say the same about brooklyn express lines which are half empty outside rush hour So I can't defend em I can't even defend my home line cause I know it carries air at off peak times. The queens ones shockingly enough the ones by LIRR would do very well if reverse service was added cause LIRR has NO REVERSE PEAK service whatsoever!!!!!!! Nothing!!!! X68 and X63 would do better if bidirectional rush hour only service was initiated other times ppl use LIRR or subway. Riff raff can't use peak service so therefore they are very unlikely to end up infesting express buses and intermixing with the current express bus ridership base.

 

Bold #3) Do what SEPTA does with their 124/125 lines have a fare inspector with a metrocard reader at the back of the bus so ppl can enter there legitimately. Or add SBS to those super lines and repeat.

 

Man smartcards are needed badly!!!!!! CMON MTA

[checkmatechamp13]

Man you really need to fix that post.

 

Cause ppl DO NOT want to put up with the ferry's infrequency on the weekends!!!

 

 

No sh*t Sherlock. I'm just stating a fact. There's no need to point out the reason when it's plainly obvious.

 

Reply to bold 1) True but to an extent many drivers already do just that plus those ppl should have special cards like student metrocard. I think they should do a similar program to what NJT does which gives free passes to ppl in after school or job placement programs ppl tring to be productive.

 

bold #2) Invalid argument the travel habit of riff-raff is off-peak and during mostly hours when via 8 and high class folk aren't riding. Besides almost everyone uses SI express lines since the ferry SUCKS BALLZ!!!!!!!! Can't say the same about brooklyn express lines which are half empty outside rush hour So I can't defend em I can't even defend my home line cause I know it carries air at off peak times. The queens ones shockingly enough the ones by LIRR would do very well if reverse service was added cause LIRR has NO REVERSE PEAK service whatsoever!!!!!!! Nothing!!!! X68 and X63 would do better if bidirectional rush hour only service was initiated other times ppl use LIRR or subway. Riff raff can't use peak service so therefore they are very unlikely to end up infesting express buses and intermixing with the current express bus ridership base.

 

Bold #3) Do what SEPTA does with their 124/125 lines have a fare inspector with a metrocard reader at the back of the bus so ppl can enter there legitimately. Or add SBS to those super lines and repeat.

 

Man smartcards are needed badly!!!!!! CMON MTA

 

1) That's my point. I don't see anything wrong with keeping it as is.

 

2) He rides the express buses off-peak, so he doesn't want riff-raff riding with him at any time.

 

The thing is that he acts like anybody who doesn't use the express bus as a "regular" is going to sit there and cause trouble. Yeah there are a few that do, but most off-peak riders are fine. I took a few off-peak express bus rides recently (I would've preferred to take the ferry, but whatever), and there were a couple of people talking, but nobody was being obnoxious or loud or messy or anything.

 

3) The thing is that not all of these lines are "super-lines". Some only get crowded at certain times. For instance, the S46 generally only gets crushloaded (as in you have no choice but to enter through the back) during rush hour, so there's no point in making it +SBS+ just for that time period (Midday ridership is strange. I've been on crowded trips and I've been on trips with a seated load. I don't really ride it much on the weekends so I can't comment there. I've been on some trips, but coincidentally they didn't meet the ferry so it was more or less a seated load. I think the S48 gets better usage on the weekends for one reason or another)

 

Besides, you have to install fare machines at every little stop, so you could be installing and maintaining a machine for 10 people to use every day. It doesn't sound like a smart use of resources to me.

 

Of course, there are issues like the machines not working or running out of paper, but like you said SmartCards could fix that.

[B35 via Church]

Even though I saw a quoted post of mine, I didn't bother reading all of QJT's post there... too unorganized....

I stopped after the word "agreed"....

 

In any event....

 

 

What in the world are you talking about?? Who is going to care what distance a farebeater is going?? It's like saying you stole one item instead of several items. How much you stole is immaterial. You still stole period... Same thing here... Farebeating is farebeating, regardless of the distance. Sometimes you really make no sense at all. I know you're trying to be logical and all, but this is just not logical in terms of applying it to the situation at hand.

lol @ your response & analogy to the distance argument...

 

anyway, exactly what happens when you get too caught up in tryna be "too" logical (there is such a thing btw).... You start creating a bunch of nested arguments/points to save face, becoming more & more nonsensical.... There's a term for that actually, but I can't recall it.... I used to be just like that throughout high school, until I, well, grew up... and learned to take things for what they are, and see people for what they are.....

 

 

We're arguing 2 different things.

 

I'm arguing whether or not a farebeater going a few blocks should be counted for ridership purposes, and you're arguing about stealing.

 

What I'm arguing is whether the person has a legitimate need to steal the service.

The irony in this explanation is that you're presenting two very different things (arguments) on your part, each of which have nothin to do with each other though...

[checkmatechamp13]

1) Even though I saw a quoted post of mine, I didn't bother reading all of QJT's post there... too unorganized....

I stopped after the word "agreed"....

 

In any event....

 

2) The irony in this explanation is that you're presenting two very different things (arguments) on your part, each of which have nothin to do with each other though...

 

1) I managed to break down what he was trying to say. I'll break it down after I answer #2.

 

2) Because there are 2 seperate issues being debated.

 

a) Whether or not farebeating can be justfied.

 

Whether a farebeater who gets on for a few blocks should be counted for ridership purposes.

 

I'm not using one to support the other.

 

If a person gets on for a few blocks, they should dip in a MetroCard regardless of what the situation is. You're holding up the bus on both ends (getting on and off) and that distance is easily walkable. They shouldn't even be allowed on the bus, so that should solve the issue about being counted for ridership purposes.

 

Of course the problem is that you don't know how long a person is going to ride.

 

If a person is going to travel for a reasonable distance, then if it's justified (i.e. Ran out of rides and need to get to a school-related activity, need it for work, need it for food shopping, etc) they should be let on because the point of having public transportation is also as a social service, but it shouldn't be abused because somebody is too lazy to walk a few blocks.

 

It's like saying food stamps should be used to only buy food that's nutritious. It shouldn't be used to buy a candy bar or cigarettes or anything like that. It's the same idea:

* It is a necessity (maybe not a necessity to live, but it's a basic day-to-day activity) to take a bus to a certain area, but you can't afford it (supermarket, school-related activity after having used up the rides, etc)

* It's not a necessity to be able to take a bus for a few blocks when you could easily walk it.

 

The same way that foods like beans, oatmeal, milk, etc are necessary for nutrition, but candy and cigarettes are not.

[B35 via Church]

1) I managed to break down what he was trying to say. I'll break it down after I answer #2.

 

2) Because there are 2 seperate issues being debated.

 

a) Whether or not farebeating can be justfied.

Whether a farebeater who gets on for a few blocks should be counted for ridership purposes.

 

I'm not using one to support the other.

 

1) cool, but No need.... If there's no disagreement (or foolishness) in the post of his, I'm not worried about it...

 

2) ok, thanks... the part here I truncated of yours is all that had to be explained

(that aint the "sarcastic wink" either.... then again, that's more via's thing)

 

There are enough side issues being discussed in this thread.... In any event, I'll just sit back & let you two (you & via) duke this particular one out.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1) The MTA isn't getting any extra money from you, so what difference does it make. You're only hurting yourself if the B/O doesn't press the button because then it's one less reason to keep the service (and I don't use the S54 so it doesn't affect me either way)

 

Actually not hurting me either because I'll be in Riverdale in a month or so. :cool: B)

 

2) We're arguing 2 different things. I'm arguing whether or not a farebeater going a few blocks should be counted for ridership purposes, and you're arguing about stealing.

 

We're not arguing two different points at all because farebeating is STEALING... It's theft of services, which you refuse to admit #1 and #2, you go out of your way to excuse it, which is just insane. So now you're telling me that if someone farebeats for only a few blocks it shouldn't be counted as farebeating? Is that the idea? The analogy makes absolutely no sense because if someone decides to get on and pay $2.25 and only rides two stops, they are still counted naturally as they should be. I never knew that the distance that you used the bus should decide whether or not the system counts as a rider, so I don't see why it should be any different when one is farebeating.

 

What I'm arguing is whether the person has a legitmate need to steal the service. If a kid runs out of rides because they're going to an after-school activity or if it's somebody who truly can't afford the ride and has to get to work or do a basic activity (say food shopping or a medical appointment) then yeah, it's stealing, but it's out of necessity.

 

So now we have to qualify the farebeating??? Again, you're trying to excuse it when there is no excuse for it. It's theft of services, regardless of the reason. You're basically implying that if someone has a good enough reason for farebeating that they should be allowed to and that idea is just completely egregious. So we have thousands of people here in NYC that are unemployed. Why don't we let them all pass through the turnstiles because they don't have a job. I mean really. The is NOT a charity. It's a public agency that is in no position to be handing out free rides because of this reason and that reason. Everybody has a story and if the starts excusing farebeating (which seems to be what you're suggesting) then we're really in trouble.

 

3) The fare is still not much higher than other transit systems in the country (at least in the major cities. Obviously a small system is going to have a lower fare), and considering NYC's high cost of living, that's an accomplishment.

 

Oh please. We have millions or riders using the system #1 and #2 we're a transit dependent city, moreso than any other city in the country.

 

Plus, for the fare we pay, we get pretty good quality service. Aside from maybe a few cities in the Northeast (like say, Philly and Boston), most transit systems have service levels that are pretty low (you'll have SI levels of service in the Downtown area). Much of it is because we're so dense, so you have more ridership to justify the service levels.

 

Well that's funny because many would disagree with you. A report just came out today saying that over 50% of riders say that the quality of transportation in the city is WORSE not better (See attached link: http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/most-subway-and-bus-riders-say-service-has-gotten-worse-poll-finds-1.3488490). Perhaps you should speak for yourself and not everyone else.

 

The MTA has the highest farebox recovery ratio of any public transit agency in the country. It has the resources to be able to withstand some farebeating.

 

lol... You continue to amaze me.... It has the resources to withstand some farebeating and yet the agency is crying broke and cutting service more and more and threatening fare hikes in the not too near future? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...?? :confused:

[LTA1992]

I like how you threw rising fares and service cuts in there. You do know that they don't get as much money as they used to from the government coupled with rising construction and energy costs plus the countless other costs that they have to pay. Fare beating is relatively small when you think about all that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I like how you threw rising fares and service cuts in there. You do know that they don't get as much money as they used to from the government coupled with rising construction and energy costs plus the countless other costs that they have to pay. Fare beating is relatively small when you think about all that.

 

Well I like how you and checkmate make farebeating sound so trivial... That's millions that they lose every year... An agency strapped for cash...

[checkmatechamp13]

1) We're not arguing two different points at all because farebeating is STEALING... It's theft of services, which you refuse to admit #1 and #2, you go out of your way to excuse it, which is just insane. So now you're telling me that if someone farebeats for only a few blocks it shouldn't be counted as farebeating? Is that the idea? The analogy makes absolutely no sense because if someone decides to get on and pay $2.25 and only rides two stops, they are still counted naturally as they should be. I never knew that the distance that you used the bus should decide whether or not the system counts as a rider, so I don't see why it should be any different when one is farebeating.

 

2) So now we have to qualify the farebeating??? Again, you're trying to excuse it when there is no excuse for it. It's theft of services, regardless of the reason. You're basically implying that if someone has a good enough reason for farebeating that they should be allowed to and that idea is just completely egregious. So we have thousands of people here in NYC that are unemployed. Why don't we let them all pass through the turnstiles because they don't have a job. I mean really. The is NOT a charity. It's a public agency that is in no position to be handing out free rides because of this reason and that reason. Everybody has a story and if the starts excusing farebeating (which seems to be what you're suggesting) then we're really in trouble.

 

3) Oh please. We have millions or riders using the system #1 and #2 we're a transit dependent city, moreso than any other city in the country.

 

4) Well that's funny because many would disagree with you. A report just came out today saying that over 50% of riders say that the quality of transportation in the city is WORSE not better (See attached link: Most subway and bus riders say service has gotten worse, poll finds - am New York). Perhaps you should speak for yourself and not everyone else.

 

5) lol... You continue to amaze me.... It has the resources to withstand some farebeating and yet the agency is crying broke and cutting service more and more and threatening fare hikes in the not too near future? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...?? :confused:

 

1) No, I'm saying they shouldn't be riding at all. So that solves that problem of whether to count them as riders.

 

2) Yes, why don't we? I remember on humantransit.org, we were having a discussion about how most European systems offer free rides for the unemployed for a certain period of time (and after that, they get a discount)

 

3) As my mom would say Nada que "Oh please". That still doesn't dispute my point. It's one of the advantages of being a transit-oriented city.

 

4) Even if it's worse (which I'm not denying it is) it's still better than most transit systems in the country. A few months ago, there was a story about how Detroit was missing runs like crazy, and a woman died because she waited 3 hours for a bus in the heat.

 

5) And so is practically every transit agency in this country. We're still better off (not to mention that the governments for those agencies haven't been cutting funding as drastically as NYS). You have cities that are considering stranding entire neighborhoods (as in they won't have any bus. Not like here where most areas will still have either an east-west or north-south bus. And a few isolated areas like the S54 and S60 doesn't dispute my point)

 

Well I like how you and checkmate make farebeating sound so trivial... That's millions that they lose every year... An agency strapped for cash...

 

Millions in a budget of billions. Sounds trivial to me.

[LTA1992]

^^^^^I like this person lol^^^^^. The MTA can piss away millions on one train set, a months energy bill, station cleaning and maintaining, employee checks, so yes, farebeating is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.