$500 for farebeaters...

[Grand Concourse]

Of course I don't mean they paid a quarter and that's it, I'm saying if they are short a quarter.

 

Like I keep saying [maybe you are just blind/ignoring my other points], it should be up to the driver. For the 3rd time: If the driver denies the person from boarding, then that is it. if they allow them on, then what are you going to do? I never said I liked that there are people short changing the system, but with so many people around, how can you enforce every single infraction?

 

And I brought up an alternative which would be for boxes that can accept dollar bills instead of coins only. So don't imply that I am for letting people pay the minimum and get away with it. I am only stating that it shouldn't be a penalty for not having the coins on hand if the card has little to 0 balance on it. If people can pay with dollar bills, then they can do that. If people still refuses to pay, then they should be given a fine. What's not clear about that?

[LTA1992]

Because a bus/train ride is not a physical object or liquid and therefore cannot be stolen? And I never said people are entitled to a free ride because nothing is free. Even free rides aren't free because someone is paying for it. And "throwing a quarter" in the farebox is not an attempt. Paying anything from 1.75-2.25 is an attempt. There are people that mis-count change. It can even happen to me (the rarity it is), at times.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Of course I don't mean they paid a quarter and that's it, I'm saying if they are short a quarter.

 

Like I keep saying [maybe you are just blind/ignoring my other points], it should be up to the driver. For the 3rd time: If the driver denies the person from boarding, then that is it. if they allow them on, then what are you going to do? I never said I liked that there are people short changing the system, but with so many people around, how can you enforce every single infraction?

 

I'm not ignoring anything. I simply disagree with your "exceptions" stance. Having a no tolerance stance sucks for the people that are short on change (yes, it's cold), but it makes things easier and it makes people be less lazy and less likely to farebeat. Being lax about the situation and making exceptions does nothing but gives people more excuses as to why it's okay not to pay the full fare. Oh, I'm short $.25 cents? It's okay. It's not okay because if you have a ton of people (which you do on SI alone) doing this that starts to add up, and then you have farebeating into the millions. That's what people don't look at. It's not like a few people are doing this. You can't distinguish those doing it purposely and those doing it accidentally but when you put the two groups together it's not chump change and that's the real problem. Think about what a million dollars can do. It can improve bus service or restore lost bus service on a local route.

[LTA1992]

But the people in SI (and I'm not saying It's right) dont always have ways to get metrocards. Not every store sells them and not every store that sells them have Metros in stock. Especially after hours. I've personally walked half the s48 route looking for a store that sells metrocards. I've also walked the entire thing BECAUSE I didn't have one. But thats just the kind of man I am. 99% of people on this Is;and are not like me and thus will fare beat. And a million bucks can't do a thing but get me a house and a nice car in today's world. The can fart out a mil paying for part of their electric bill.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But the people in SI (and I'm not saying It's right) dont always have ways to get metrocards. Not every store sells them and not every store that sells them have Metros in stock. Especially after hours. I've personally walked half the s48 route looking for a store that sells metrocards. I've also walked the entire thing BECAUSE I didn't have one. But thats just the kind of man I am. 99% of people on this Is;and are not like me and thus will fare beat.

 

Excuses... Excuses... It's a very legitimate one, but not excusable. Tell me this... We have so few places to get Metrocards, yet farebeating on SI is only a problem on the local buses and not the express buses... What does that tell you?? Also can you answer the question as to why your sister was under the impression that passengers have to be let on even if they don't pay?? Where did she get that idea from?? :confused:

[Grand Concourse]

I'm not ignoring anything. I simply disagree with your "exceptions" stance. Having a no tolerance stance sucks for the people that are short on change (yes, it's cold), but it makes things easier and it makes people be less lazy and less likely to farebeat. Being lax about the situation and making exceptions does nothing but gives people more excuses as to why it's okay not to pay the full fare. Oh, I'm short $.25 cents? It's okay. It's not okay because if you have a ton of people (which you do on SI alone) doing this that starts to add up, and then you have farebeating into the millions. That's what people don't look at. It's not like a few people are doing this. You can't distinguish those doing it purposely and those doing it accidentally but when you put the two groups together it's not chump change and that's the real problem. Think about what a million dollars can do. It can improve bus service or restore lost bus service on a local route.

I see you conveniently ignored my farebox idea. Typical. You refuse to address a point I made just to show only your opinions are right. At least I have an alternative, but hey you want to fine people for not having $.05 then I'd like to see you try and bust that person's chops over it.

 

And you speak about millions, think of how much money the MTA is losing by running express buses from SI that aren't full and runs at most twice each direction and sits around doing nothing during the midday hours. If the MTA charged more from buses and subways based on distance, that can also go a long way. So if you are so high and mighty about punishing the "few" for not paying the fare, then perhaps you should be paying more for the service you use.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I see you conveniently ignored my farebox idea. Typical. You refuse to address a point I made just to show only your opinions are right. At least I have an alternative, but hey you want to fine people for not having $.05 then I'd like to see you try and bust that person's chops over it.

 

And you speak about millions, think of how much money the MTA is losing by running express buses from SI that aren't full and runs at most twice each direction and sits around doing nothing during the midday hours. If the MTA charged more from buses and subways based on distance, that can also go a long way. So if you are so high and mighty about punishing the "few" for not paying the fare, then perhaps you should be paying more for the service you use.

 

Oh here we go again with the SI express bus comment... For your information I won't be living on Staten Island much longer, so enjoy making that moot point for now. For the 1,000th time, the cut all of the wasteful express bus routes across the city. If you were up on things you would know that, so there are no empty express buses parading about. Funny how you always harp on Staten Island too as if the other boroughs don't have express buses. For the record though, I've stated that the base fare on the express bus should be higher, but in any event, that has NOTHING to do with farebeaters. The farebeating is happening on the LOCAL buses, not express buses, but feel free to keep beating a dead horse. When you have nothing to come back with you have to bring up express buses, but ONLY SI express buses. LOL

 

As for your farebox "idea", what exactly is so new about it?? You've stated that they should accept bills now several times as if the idea has never been suggested before and several folks in previous threads have stated why they don't, so unless you have some grand idea as to how you can collect bills without destroying them then there is no point in bringing that up and that's why I didn't address it. Another moot point.

[Grand Concourse]

Other bus systems have boxes that CAN accept bills. The MTA is so backwards, they don't bother to invest in such things. What other system has boxes that DON'T accept bills. Don't give me that all or nothing stance. If people can pay, they can, if not then it is up to the driver. If anything it is also up to the driver to be more strict about it, but since there are crazy people out there, chances are they'd rather not risk getting injured or even killed because the rider didn't pay the full fare. So given the choice of returning home alive or at worst killed for some fare, I'd probably pick the former. So it's not a black and white issue in the real world. If you can't understand that then that's your problem.

 

Of course I said the express buses because unlike the PBLs where they can take those 40' buses and run them for local use, the suburban buses are express bus use only and a waste. I also said subways could be distance based to help cover the fare. So I'm not limiting the attacks to just express buses. But you want to take my words out of context, fine, nothing I say is going to go through anyway. You've already made up your mind.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Other bus systems have boxes that CAN accept bills. The MTA is so backwards, they don't bother to invest in such things. What other system has boxes that DON'T accept bills. Don't give me that all or nothing stance. If people can pay, they can, if not then it is up to the driver. If anything it is also up to the driver to be more strict about it, but since there are crazy people out there, chances are they'd rather not risk getting injured or even killed because the rider didn't pay the full fare. So given the choice of returning home alive or at worst killed for some fare, I'd probably pick the former. So it's not a black and white issue in the real world. If you can't understand that then that's your problem.

 

Of course I said the express buses because unlike the PBLs where they can take those 40' buses and run them for local use, the suburban buses are express bus use only and a waste. I also said subways could be distance based to help cover the fare. So I'm not limiting the attacks to just express buses. But you want to take my words out of context, fine, nothing I say is going to go through anyway. You've already made up your mind.

 

 

My question is what makes you so certain that permitting the fareboxes to accept bills will diminish farebeating?

 

With regards to the express buses, my issue with you is that you always target SI express buses like the other boroughs don't have any and then claim that they are so wasteful when they are not. FYI express buses last a good 12 years or more before they are replaced and they are just as durable as local buses. The way you talk you would think that local buses don't have to deadhead back to the depot ever, which is certainly not true. Again, we were discussing farebeating and then suddenly you whip out the express bus card (lol) which has nothing to do with farebeating whatsoever.

[Queens Surface]

So the fine gets raised to $500 dollars, so what? There is barely any enforcement for it and I mean the cameras don't really help unless its a common offender...

[Grand Concourse]

My question is what makes you so certain that permitting the fareboxes to accept bills will diminish farebeating?

 

With regards to the express buses, my issue with you is that you always target SI express buses like the other boroughs don't have any and then claim that they are so wasteful when they are not. FYI express buses last a good 12 years or more before they are replaced and they are just as durable as local buses. The way you talk you would think that local buses don't have to deadhead back to the depot ever, which is certainly not true. Again, we were discussing farebeating and then suddenly you whip out the express bus card (lol) which has nothing to do with farebeating whatsoever.

It would certainly allow for people with a low balance card to pay with something on the spot than to dig around for change or ask other people. It satisfy your claim about someone "just paying a quarter".

 

Because you seem to make such a big stink over how if a person is short on the fare [but tries to ask ppl for change] should still be fined. If it is so much about money to you, then everyone should pay more especially the further away they live from Manhattan. SI comes to mind because the buses have to go thru Brooklyn or Jersey. Of course there are other examples like the express buses from the Rockaways when the is there. Checkmate had links about how each express route really costs, so that means there can be buses that costs $5.50 to those that costs $20 per person. That's my point about express buses as a whole, not just SI.

 

The point is not how durable the buses are, the point is they make 2-4 trips a day and either sit idle in Manhattan or deadheads empty back to the borough of their origin. PBL buses could run on the local routes during the day, thus maximizing their use. Local buses at least takes fares in both directions and deadheads within the borough. Express buses collects one way only and don't pick up 'reverse peak' riders heading in the opposite direction.

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Future ENY OP]

^^ This. (QSC's post)

 

$500 just means some tourist who gets confused on the M34 SBS is gonna be out of money for the rest of their trip. It's way too much money, I think even $100 is too much money. $75 seems more reasonable to me.

 

Reason is, playing with fines doesn't work. You can threaten death, but until you get the cameras working and the cops paying attention, people are gonna keep farebeating. When you raise the stakes like this, just means the couple people who do get caught are gonna lose a ton of money.

 

I agree with you partically. However, I've seen cops in high occupancy train stations in the city (I will not name those stations) catching farebeaters especially the ones in street clothes. Now you can't really recongize a street cop b/c they have blended into the way the hood boys dress.

 

As far as the fine is concerned: I agree with a $500 fine. Another thing the senate should of added is 3 months in lockup at Rikers for farebeaters.

If it's going to get the people to realize that you gotta pay your fare to get into the system than I'm all for it. These are not the days when a fine used to be $25.00, and you got a smack on the wrist from the judge.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It would certainly allow for people with a low balance card to pay with something on the spot than to dig around for change or ask other people. It satisfy your claim about someone "just paying a quarter".

 

I don't dispute that, but we both know that's not happening at least in the near future, so it's still a moot point.

 

Because you seem to make such a big stink over how if a person is short on the fare [but tries to ask ppl for change] should still be fined.

 

No, it's about farebeating and how certain behavior fosters it... That's what this thread is about remember??

 

If it is so much about money to you, then everyone should pay more especially the further away they live from Manhattan. SI comes to mind because the buses have to go thru Brooklyn or Jersey. Of course there are other examples like the express buses from the Rockaways when the is there. Checkmate had links about how each express route really costs, so that means there can be buses that costs $5.50 to those that costs $20 per person. That's my point about express buses as a whole, not just SI.

 

How did we go from farebeating to express buses??? :confused: I guess I shall repeat myself yet again... For the last time I support an increased base fare on the express bus. However, that could discourage ridership. For example in Riverdale, I'm sure some folks use the express bus over MetroNorth because it is slightly cheaper in addition to other reasons. That's one reason I will be using it once I move there. The express bus takes longer so why take it if you can take MetroNorth and pay the same or less? The only advantage would be that it takes you to places that MetroNorth doesn't, thus making it more convenient.

 

The point is not how durable the buses are, the point is they make 2-4 trips a day and either sit idle in Manhattan or deadheads empty back to the borough of their origin. PBL buses could run on the local routes during the day, thus maximizing their use. Local buses at least takes fares in both directions and deadheads within the borough. Express buses collects one way only and don't pick up 'reverse peak' riders heading in the opposite direction.

 

Yeah, that is the point because people love to harp on how "expensive" express buses are to maintain. The switched to coach buses for several reasons and one of them I'm sure had to be cost. Why complain about the way express buses are run by the when many other agencies run express bus service the same way with coach buses?? You expect express bus riders to pay more for less?? Is that the idea?? You clearly have a bias towards folks without subways. You complain about express buses but you wouldn't dare be willing to fork over the huge expensive via taxes of building subways or light rails. Just you complaining like JoelUpFront (aka Mr. Random). LOL So you expect folks in the suburbs to get out of their cars to pay a ish load to ride an express bus that offers no comfort and is overpriced. Is that the idea?? B)

[DJ MC]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Grand Concourse]

When have you seen the d4500 Mci buses run local or on subway shuttle services? I don't mean the O5s. Those O5s, I assume are used for express service every once in a while, but not as often as they used to if at all now.

[Noflexdont]

Boy oh boy what have I done? I stirred up the pot a little too much I guess. I'm going to give some input as an operator. Currently the policy is to remind the person that the fare is 2.25. We been told by management and TWU to say nothing at all, of course this is off the record. The reason behind this attitude is both side don't want an operator assaulted over a mere $2.25. Now the way I feel is there should be a zero tolerance policyONLY if the bus operator was able to issue back a refund of the amount you put in that was less than the fare. If you decide to stay on and only put $2.24 which is not the full fare. You then are liable for any fine you incur no matter how much it is. You made a choice of not paying the full fare and stayed on when you had an option of taking the money you deposited back and stepping off the bus to get the full fare. I think that it is crazy that people feel it OK to steal not only from the MTA but also from the riding public.

[LRG]

Oh lord, one of these discussions again...express bus vs. local bus. Why am I not surprised?...

 

I already gave my opinion about this whole coach fleet issue, and in some places they are simply not needed. Staten Island, yes. Brooklyn...honestly, Brooklyn really doesn't need coach buses for express fleets. One of my B/O friends who used to work at Ulmer Park says they don't really need MCIs/Prevosts either. The costs for the coach buses are higher not only because of the fact that they only go one-way (a majority of the routes), but looking further besides that, they cost more, and they require more maintenance because they have more parts than a standard local bus, hence the reason why a lot of express routes simply do not need coaches. Hell Via, even Gorgor agreed with me that the X90 would be fine with suburban-seated Novas, and even Forest Glen says that his X63 route would be fine with Novas as well. No it's not just me who's indifferent with express buses saying this, it's other express bus supporters saying the same as well. MCIs are overkill.

[SoSpectacular]

They limit suburban buses to express service only?

 

It's always been that way. Except for that time when we started getting the MCIs and the suburban-seated RTS' and Orion Vs were sent over to do local service for a while before they finally swapped the seats out for standard ones.

 

Anyway, out here in Queens you rarely see any type of fare enforcement, the cops out here are more interested in busting your chops for contraband or speeding/parking violations... What a joke

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Grand Concourse]

Ulmer's 9300s may not have been very good for local service rush hours, but they were very comfortable to ride during the middays. I'm glad to have gotten a few rides before they were sent to LGA and reseated.

[B35 via Church]

Most of the people I see dropping in change did not just forget a quarter. They're short by $2.00 in some cases and they have no intention of paying more than a quarter because they don't have any intention of paying the full fare.

 

True in that they're not just "forgetting" a quarter; there are calculating farebeaters out there (in other words, there's intent).....

 

But being short by 2 whole bucks?

You didn't even have to embellish that point, to make that point.....

 

 

Maybe we have it too good with the single fare system and should pay based on miles used.

lol... there's no way you can enforce that though; that's actually worse than implementing a zone-based fare system....

 

The way you've been about this, it seems like there are people left and right forgetting how much they have on their cards, which is utter BS.

Yeah, I aint buyin that either..... But I will say, the reverse of this scenario irks me more... when you have people inserting/swiping a bunch of cards.....

 

I have to agree with pretty much fines for everyone that doesn't pay the full fare.

This.

 

If I'm short on fare, I get off the bus.... No sob stories out of me (I'm bad at making something up anyway)....

You don't have to be a good lier if you tell the truth, or don't put yourself in a situation where you feel you have to tell one.....

 

Like I keep saying, it should be up to the driver. For the 3rd time: If the driver denies the person from boarding, then that is it. if they allow them on, then what are you going to do?

His point is, There should be no stipulations, period.... No "up to the driver".....

 

Quite frankly, I agree w/ that point.... The b/o isn't a fare enforcer, nor a fare mediator... they're not there to negotiate if they feel a passenger made an adequate attempt at paying the fare or not.....

 

If I drop three quarters on a bodega table to pay for a sunday newspaper & I walk out the store, the cashier/owner has every right to call the cops on me for theft.... and he would be 100% justified in doing it too !

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ulmer's 9300s may not have been very good for local service rush hours, but they were very comfortable to ride during the middays. I'm glad to have gotten a few rides before they were sent to LGA and reseated.

 

Yeah and you forgot to mention that the seats on those buses were torn to shreads. I know because they used to put them on the B64 and B4 which I used to ride to Bay Ridge back in the day. That's why they had to be re-seated. Express buses should only be used on express bus lines and not local bus lines because there is too much ware and tear on them if they're used on the local buses. You complain about the cost. Think about the cost of having to keep constantly replacing those seats... You still avoided my question about passengers being willing to pay more for less... For $5.50 passengers should be able to get comfortable seats considering their long commutes. For $2.25 you should get comfort too, but not the same amount of comfort as someone paying $5.50. That's like saying someone should pay more to ride first class, but get the same service as someone who pays for economic class. The idea is absurd and you know it.

 

Oh lord, one of these discussions again...express bus vs. local bus. Why am I not surprised?...

 

I already gave my opinion about this whole coach fleet issue, and in some places they are simply not needed. Staten Island, yes. Brooklyn...honestly, Brooklyn really doesn't need coach buses for express fleets. One of my B/O friends who used to work at Ulmer Park says they don't really need MCIs/Prevosts either. The costs for the coach buses are higher not only because of the fact that they only go one-way (a majority of the routes), but looking further besides that, they cost more, and they require more maintenance because they have more parts than a standard local bus, hence the reason why a lot of express routes simply do not need coaches. Hell Via, even Gorgor agreed with me that the X90 would be fine with suburban-seated Novas, and even Forest Glen says that his X63 route would be fine with Novas as well. No it's not just me who's indifferent with express buses saying this, it's other express bus supporters saying the same as well. MCIs are overkill.

 

I'll raise the same point that I raised to Grand Concourse which is this... You expect passengers to pay more for their service and get less in return. And I disagree... Commuters that take the express bus in Brooklyn have long commutes as well and they most certainly need those MCIs to give them some level for comfort for their $5.50 and long commute. As for those Prevosts, they should be returned for MCIs... I'll agree that they're a waste of money. The seating IMO is cramped and the buses look cheap. :tdown: But this whole express vs local nonsense was brought up by Grand Concourse, so I'm leaving it here. Back to farebeating, which was what I was discussing before a certain someone brought this up...

[B35 via Church]

Yeah and you forgot to mention that the seats on those buses were torn to shreads. I know because they used to put them on the B64 and B4 which I used to ride to Bay Ridge back in the day. That's why they had to be re-seated. Express buses should only be used on express bus lines and not local bus lines because there is too much wear and tear on them if they're used on the local buses.

 

I would always catch em on the B64; those things were NOT comfortable... I've been on em when they had em out in Jamaica on the Q77 also....

 

The number one problem I had w/ those seats were that, the "seat" part (the part you put your behind on) wouldn't be intact a lot of the time.... While sitting down, you had to worry about keeping it in place as the bus was in motion.... good luck if the bus hits a bump in the road.... You shouldn't be feeling anything "solid" as you're sitting down on something that's cushioned....

 

Then of course, as you said, the ripped seats.... they would stain your clothes too.

I would rather sit on a "regular" seated RTS than those things.... I didn't look forward to riding the soft seated RTS; the sense of discomfort was always there.... and I absolutely hated when they had those orion's w/ the soft seats on the BM's..... That's the one thing I'm glad they discontinued using as part of their (exp.) bus fleet.... Worse, they would be used more on the BM super expresses (which is another little thing I noticed).....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I would always catch em on the B64; those things were NOT comfortable... I've been on em when they had em out in Jamaica on the Q77 also....

 

The number one problem I had w/ those seats were that, the "seat" part (the part you put your behind on) wouldn't be intact a lot of the time.... While sitting down, you had to worry about keeping it in place as the bus was in motion.... good luck if the bus hits a bump in the road.... You shouldn't be feeling anything "solid" as you're sitting down on something that's cushioned....

 

Then of course, as you said, the ripped seats.... they would stain your clothes too.

I would rather sit on a "regular" seated RTS than those things.... I didn't look forward to riding the soft seated RTS; the sense of discomfort was always there.... and I absolutely hated when they had those orion's w/ the soft seats on the BM's..... That's the one thing I'm glad they discontinued using as part of their (exp.) bus fleet.... Worse, they would be used more on the BM super expresses (which is another little thing I noticed).....

 

 

LMAO... On the B64, I remember one of those seats had a huge hole and something was sticking out of it. The seat was completely sunken in. :eek: Anywho, yeah, I'm sure you remembered when the put those signs up on the BMs talking about how they were getting bigger, more comfortable buses for them, as in getting MCIs. I don't think they would put those signs up unless folks weren't complaining. For $5.50 I have never rode a bus that was so uncomfortable. On those Orions folks that are our height can't even sit in those two seaters that they had comfortably. In fact I couldn't sit in the most of the seats comfortably. My back would hurt like hell after riding one of those buses, so yeah thank God for the MCIs because I hated those Orions w/a passion, so much so that I would wait for another bus if I saw them on the BM3. :mad:

 

As for the farebeating though, I've been using the S54 just about every day this week either coming to or going from the express bus. Last night I got one from the X10. It was empty when I got on and then this guy gets on yapping with his fancy cell phone, but he doesn't have money to pay. He didn't attempt to put anything in. He just shrugged his shoulders at the B/O, stopping his conversation for a split second, got on and then headed to the back and kept yacking like it was the norm. Really unbelievable. I usually don't see that much farebeating on the S54, but I've seen at least 3 or 4 instances of it in the last week alone, which shows that it's getting worse, not better. It looked like the B/O hit some button... Most of the farebeaters I've seen have been young too and not necessarily students either... In other words, old enough that they should be paying.