Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[qjtransitmaster]

Why don't you just send the M9 through Waterside if that's what you want?

 

Why don't you just leave routes which are already bastardized and unreliable alone and not try to f**k things up more? No one from that area is looking for BPC, and these arguments about the PATH make no sense....

your late kid already dropped M8 south idea BUT waterside would be a better terminal as unlike it's current eastern terminal it isn't in the middle of nowhere. That would actually increase ridership. I see you completely lack the ability to think beyond the norm so do yourself a favor and stop. M8 is not as unreliable as say M20 or M14. M9 has good ridership M8 doesn't and this eliminates a transfer.

 

I guess that could work but the M9 doesn't directly serve Waterside. It's better than extending it to Battery Park City.

You have a point maybe west side hwy should get a separate route altogether.

[Q43LTD]

 

 

You have a point maybe west side hwy should get a separate route altogether.

No WSH route please

[qjtransitmaster]

No WSH route please

you mean the M37 already mentioned it months ago. It is stupid to leave such a heavy corridor without any bus service and you know it.

[Q43LTD]

you mean the M37 already mentioned it months ago. It is stupid to leave such a heavy corridor without any bus service and you know it.

M37?

[qjtransitmaster]

M37?

It was a proposal I made a few months back threxx actually liked that one I guess I know why now. But yeah is used mostly DH runs and converted them to revenue service rather than have em DH on the west side I mean south of 57th street. There are many attractions along that stretch to boot. I modified that based on MTA proposals for M12 ect but I guess my original M37 was better.

[bobtehpanda]

you mean the M37 already mentioned it months ago. It is stupid to leave such a heavy corridor without any bus service and you know it.

 

You mean a heavy corridor with low demand?

 

Most of the West Side Highway borders water, and the only reason that there's a sizeable amount of traffic on West St is because it's a designated "highway" corridor. A West St route would have very little ridership due to the lack of destinations around West St and the crappiness of the pedestrian environment (all the signals are badly timed for pedestrians, not every block has a crosswalk, and there are double left turn lanes in some areas, which don't exist anywhere else in Manhattan.)

 

Just because you draw a line on a map and it looks pretty doesn't mean it works.

[qjtransitmaster]

You mean a heavy corridor with low demand?

 

Most of the West Side Highway borders water, and the only reason that there's a sizeable amount of traffic on West St is because it's a designated "highway" corridor. A West St route would have very little ridership due to the lack of destinations around West St and the crappiness of the pedestrian environment (all the signals are badly timed for pedestrians, not every block has a crosswalk, and there are double left turn lanes in some areas, which don't exist anywhere else in Manhattan.)

 

Just because you draw a line on a map and it looks pretty doesn't mean

You mean a heavy corridor with low demand?

 

Most of the West Side Highway borders water, and the only reason that there's a sizeable amount of traffic on West St is because it's a designated "highway" corridor. A West St route would have very little ridership due to the lack of destinations around West St and the crappiness of the pedestrian environment (all the signals are badly timed for pedestrians, not every block has a crosswalk, and there are double left turn lanes in some areas, which don't exist anywhere else in Manhattan.)

 

Just because you draw a line on a map and it looks pretty doesn't mean it works.

where does that traffic go? Cause if a line like that can link to the then there goes your argument. I am not blind a heavy corridor can't possibly be low demand. Many of your rail proposals are expensive and require a massive build out. Mine don't require new rail lines BUT we can both agree that the triboro line is needed and the rockaway not so much. You raise something interesting

Answer me this where does the majority of that traffic originate from this way I can perfect my plan into something that tackles a need. No bashingjust answer Iif you don't know then say so.

[bobtehpanda]

ame="bobtehpanda" post="675168" timestamp="1368679958"]You mean a heavy corridor with low demand?

 

Most of the West Side Highway borders water, and the only reason that there's a sizeable amount of traffic on West St is because it's a designated "highway" corridor. A West St route would have very little ridership due to the lack of destinations around West St and the crappiness of the pedestrian environment (all the signals are badly timed for pedestrians, not every block has a crosswalk, and there are double left turn lanes in some areas, which don't exist anywhere else in Manhattan.)

 

Just because you draw a line on a map and it looks pretty doesn't mean where does that traffic go? Cause if a line like that can link to the then there goes your argument. I am not blind a heavy corridor can't possibly be low demand. Many of your rail proposals are expensive and require a massive build out. Mine don't require new rail lines BUT we can both agree that the triboro line is needed and the rockaway not so much. You raise something interesting

Answer me this where does the majority of that traffic originate from this way I can perfect my plan into something that tackles a need. No bashingjust answer Iif you don't know then say so.

It comes from mostly New Jersey and the other suburbs - most traffic on West St is passing around Manhattan, because that's what the corridor was for. There's really nothing on West St itself besides BPC, Pier 40, Chelsea Piers, the Intrepid, and the Cruise Ship Terminal.

[qjtransitmaster]

It comes from mostly New Jersey and the other suburbs - most traffic on West St is passing around Manhattan, because that's what the corridor was for. There's really nothing on West St itself besides BPC, Pier 40, Chelsea Piers, the Intrepid, and the Cruise Ship Terminal.

I had a feeling that was the case NJT however would need city approval to stop around there I see interesting.

[Gorgor]

For traveling within Manhattan, anyone who is already driving will NOT under any circumstances ditch their car to take a bus.  I drive within Manhattan on weekends and there is no way that a new bus route would change my mind.

 

Additionally, if I'm with someone then traveling by car is cheaper because even if I can't find a free spot, $3.50 per hour street parking is better than $10 round trip (for two people).  For families traveling by car with 4 or 5 people, they'd have to be stupid to take public transportation because $20-$25 round trip is absurd.  A round trip cab ride is cheaper than that.

[bobtehpanda]

I had a feeling that was the case NJT however would need city approval to stop around there I see interesting.

 

I think you missed the point of my post...

 

Since most people are passing through West St and are not headed to a destination on the street itself, a bus route there wouldn't actually get that many passengers...

 

Gorgor is also right - the current users of West St are the joggers and cyclists on the bike path (of which a significantly large amount of people are commuters) and non-Manhattan residents who don't want to use public transport for a variety of reasons. People on West St do what they do because they like and prefer their current mode choice - cycling on the West Side bike path can be considerably faster (and save a lot more money) than stop-and-go traffic or delayed train/bus service for intra-Manhattan trips, and car trips make financial sense (if you have a car, it'd be a waste of money to just plop twenty or thirty thousand on a vehicle and have it sit in your driveway). They're also faster than buses and more comfortable, and West St is actually a fairly free-flowing corridor with a lot of alternative options.

 

Transit on West St won't work.

[qjtransitmaster]

I think you missed the point of my post...

 

Since most people are passing through West St and are not headed to a destination on the street itself, a bus route there wouldn't actually get that many passengers...

 

Gorgor is also right - the current users of West St are the joggers and cyclists on the bike path (of which a significantly large amount of people are commuters) and non-Manhattan residents who don't want to use public transport for a variety of reasons. People on West St do what they do because they like and prefer their current mode choice - cycling on the West Side bike path can be considerably faster (and save a lot more money) than stop-and-go traffic or delayed train/bus service for intra-Manhattan trips, and car trips make financial sense (if you have a car, it'd be a waste of money to just plop twenty or thirty thousand on a vehicle and have it sit in your driveway). They're also faster than buses and more comfortable, and West St is actually a fairly free-flowing corridor with a lot of alternative options.

 

Transit on West St won't work.

Err then why is the MTA creating the M12?  Also any bus on west is basically travelling at the speed of the traffic. It may be better for M21 to go to 14th and let  M12 stay on west street to south ferry OR become a canal street crosstown BUT canal street is shit. That was one of my original reasons for M8 to BPC to keep coverage on that corridor from M12 north and M8 south and a crosstown on canal with M12 But traffic on canal would hurt the reliability of that bus big time and may be counter productive I am impressed with your arguments but apparently MTA doesn't agree to an extent. M12 would eventually be extended further south but I kinda like it's proposed routing.

 

For traveling within Manhattan, anyone who is already driving will NOT under any circumstances ditch their car to take a bus.  I drive within Manhattan on weekends and there is no way that a new bus route would change my mind.

 

Additionally, if I'm with someone then traveling by car is cheaper because even if I can't find a free spot, $3.50 per hour street parking is better than $10 round trip (for two people).  For families traveling by car with 4 or 5 people, they'd have to be stupid to take public transportation because $20-$25 round trip is absurd.  A round trip cab ride is cheaper than that.

I see but what about individuals? What about gas and parking together? You forget the newest generation is not as interested in driving as the older generations that you are from. $20 I think MTA should have more family friendly fares you got a point in that but many cars there have 2 people or just one.

Edited May 17, 2013 by qjtransitmaster

[Cait Sith]

Err then why is the MTA creating the M12?

 

Yup, you clearly don't know squat about the M12, it's a North/South route along 11th and 12th Avenues and along West Street between 24th and 14th.

 

Emphasis on 24th and 14th because just look at whats there to begin with. Anywhere SOUTH of that area is no good.

 

Lets examine this, the stops it will serve and the purpose.

 

- West 59th Street    

- West 55th Street serving the Cove and Terminal 5

- West 45th Street serving the Intrepid, and Pasha

- West 39th Street serving New Jersey ferries    

- West 30th Street serving the High Line and Hudson Yards

- West 20th Street where there is a crossing on the highway

- West 17th Street to serve Pier 57.   

 

That's the main generator spots along the line.

.

From 14th to Spring, it'll use both Washington and Greenwich Streets, that's self explanatory.

 

The West Side Highway south of 14th is a NO-GO EXCEPT for Chambers and below.

[Turbo19]

Edging my way in the transit vs. personal vehicle cost debate.

 

 

For traveling within Manhattan, anyone who is already driving will NOT under any circumstances ditch their car to take a bus.  I drive within Manhattan on weekends and there is no way that a new bus route would change my mind.

 

Additionally, if I'm with someone then traveling by car is cheaper because even if I can't find a free spot, $3.50 per hour street parking is better than $10 round trip (for two people).  For families traveling by car with 4 or 5 people, they'd have to be stupid to take public transportation because $20-$25 round trip is absurd.  A round trip cab ride is cheaper than that.

One thing to note however, if the individuals in question were to be utilizing transit regularly, it wouldn't be much of a problem as likely everyone in a group would be in possession of fare media.

 

 

 

I see but what about individuals? What about gas and parking together? You forget the newest generation is not as interested in driving as the older generations that you are from. $20 I think MTA should have more family friendly fares you got a point in that but many cars there have 2 people or just one.

Read the above reply.

 

Generally in my experience, something very common with the supposed "new generation", everyone in a certain social circle utilizes the same transportation. So what's happening more often is more people tend to travel in groups. That tends to build ridership, sometimes generating 10-15 trips within that group.

 

Speaking of which, largest group I've traveled in was with 17 people, during finals. I was convinced all the other riders hated us for being so damn loud.

[qjtransitmaster]

Yup, you clearly don't know squat about the M12, it's a North/South route along 11th and 12th Avenues and along West Street between 24th and 14th.

 

Emphasis on 24th and 14th because just look at whats there to begin with. Anywhere SOUTH of that area is no good.

 

Lets examine this, the stops it will serve and the purpose.

 

- West 59th Street    

- West 55th Street serving the Cove and Terminal 5

- West 45th Street serving the Intrepid, and Pasha

- West 39th Street serving New Jersey ferries    

- West 30th Street serving the High Line and Hudson Yards

- West 20th Street where there is a crossing on the highway

- West 17th Street to serve Pier 57.   

 

That's the main generator spots along the line.

.

From 14th to Spring, it'll use both Washington and Greenwich Streets, that's self explanatory.

 

The West Side Highway south of 14th is a NO-GO EXCEPT for Chambers and below.

Interesting you have a point about generators you did give me some better idea about the area.

 

Edging my way in the transit vs. personal vehicle cost debate.

 

 

One thing to note however, if the individuals in question were to be utilizing transit regularly, it wouldn't be much of a problem as likely everyone in a group would be in possession of fare media.

 

 

 

Read the above reply.

 

Generally in my experience, something very common with the supposed "new generation", everyone in a certain social circle utilizes the same transportation. So what's happening more often is more people tend to travel in groups. That tends to build ridership, sometimes generating 10-15 trips within that group.

 

Speaking of which, largest group I've traveled in was with 17 people, during finals. I was convinced all the other riders hated us for being so damn loud.

Interesting people travel on transit in groups?

[Turbo19]

Interesting you have a point about generators you did give me some better idea about the area.

 

Interesting people travel on transit in groups?

Not often, but it's becoming more common.

[qjtransitmaster]

Not often, but it's becoming more common.

I see. I didn't know it was getting so common.

[bobtehpanda]

It's common among groups of friends, and maybe groups of coworkers, but for the most part families don't travel together by mass transit, especially if the kids are over 10 or so, the family consists of more than three people, or the trip can only be made by a bus. For groups of unrelated individuals, it's more of a "individual" expense, since everybody has an unlimited, but for a family it's more expensive because not every family member may have an unlimited card, and those can only be used on one person.

 

As I understand it, the main impetus for the creation of the M12 is Hudson Yards and the completion of the extension, which will give it a pretty good anchor on the route where none really existed before. I don't know how good that half-hour frequency is going to be for ridership, though.

[Mysterious2train]

Yeah, I was referring to the area by Columbia.

 

With his routing, I forgot whether he had it going up to 145th and back, or just to 141st, so thanks for posting that up. (Obviously 141st is quicker, but 145th has the subway connection)

 

With the M104, I was thinking purely in terms of connecting CCNY to the subway lines in the area, as an alternative to extending the Bx33. (Otherwise, I'd tend to agree about the M11 being sufficient to connect to the UWS) The advantage of the M104 is that it's more straightforward, while the advantage of the Bx33 is that there might actually be some students who currently take Bx33s who would benefit from the extension.

 

Of course, the problem with either one is that the 145th Street shuttle would reduce some of the benefit of connecting to the 145th Street IND, while the fact that the students would tend to walk up anyway from the would reduce the benefit even further, so the ridership along either of those extensions would be questionable.

 

BTW, when I took the shuttle, I think almost all the seats were full, but it was a little van. This was between say, 8:00 & 8:30PM.

 

I don't remember ever seeing the shuttle to 137th St ever being around before it was cut, but I find it hard to imagine people actually riding it. The walk from the to the Campus Entrance is more direct than a shuttle bus and it's pretty straightforward. It's pretty much just a cut through that small park at the train + a one-block walk.    

 

You don't really see many people walking to the or Bx33, because of that trek through St. Nicholas Park [don't get me wrong, there are people who do that, just not a lot.] For City College riders, I imagine the main draw would be the relatively quick connection to the [although the area around 138 St/Concourse is kinda barren and not an ideal waiting spot] If the Bx33 ever got extended, I really don't think it should serve 145 St, since that would only elongate the trip and the Bx19 already covers 145 St. I would argue one of the good points of the 33 is it not being quite as delay-prone as the Bx19, M100 or M101 and I don't see a point in making it longer. I do think it would take a while for an extended Bx33 to build up a good riderbase which is somewhat problematic. I doubt too many CCNY bus riders or even just people living in Hamiliton Heights are aware of the Bx33's existence.

 

I just think offering any kind of bus service from the campus to the is somewhat fruitless since walking is pretty direct. It doesn't help that Convent is closed off to regular traffic on weekdays so the bus'd have to use Amsterdam Av.

 

Although, I don't think moving the M104 to end at Broadway/135 isn't the worst idea. If nothing else, it'd put the route close to Manhattanville and cut down on some transfers to the M4 where people are just getting off by 135. It's current terminal seems like a relic of the Amsterdam Depot days, although people do get on at that stop at Morningside and 125 particularly. 

[B35 via Church]

I would argue one of the good points of the 33 is it not being quite as delay-prone as the Bx19, M100 or M101 and I don't see a point in making it longer.

I don't see what you're sayin here....

How can one of the good points of the 33 be that you don't see a point in making it longer?

 

I do think it would take a while for an extended Bx33 to build up a good riderbase which is somewhat problematic. I doubt too many CCNY bus riders or even just people living in Hamiliton Heights are aware of the Bx33's existence.

The Bx33 (as is) will always be nothing more than a coverage route.... It doesn't go to the part of the Bronx (or w/i manhattan for the matter) that said riders you mention are really tryna get to like that..... The riderbase it currently has is barely enough to keep the route afloat, which is telling.....

 

Although, I don't think moving the M104 to end at Broadway/135 isn't the worst idea. If nothing else, it'd put the route close to Manhattanville and cut down on some transfers to the M4 where people are just getting off by 135. It's current terminal seems like a relic of the Amsterdam Depot days, although people do get on at that stop at Morningside and 125 particularly. 

More often than not, those are those folks that are taking the 104 it over to the @ morningside/125th....

As for the current terminal, that's basically all it is - a turnaround right at the depot.

[Mysterious2train]

I don't see what you're sayin here....

How can one of the good points of the 33 be that you don't see a point in making it longer?

 

I'm trying to say I wouldn't want the Bx33 to run on 145th St coming up from 135th St since that would take a little bit longer than running on 141st St instead. Since the 19 already runs on 145 St I just don't think the 33 should go there. I guess it depends on whether or not one thinks the greater riderbase on 145th makes up for the extra few minutes compared to going on 141st St. The 33 is (arguably) faster than the 19, M100 and M101 and it shouldn't change that by detouring. 

 

The Bx33 (as is) will always be nothing more than a coverage route.... It doesn't go to the part of the Bronx (or w/i manhattan for the matter) that said riders you mention are really tryna get to like that..... The riderbase it currently has is barely enough to keep the route afloat, which is telling.....

 

True. I guess the idea in regards to the subway is that the 33 would cut into the passengers from CCNY or elsewhere that the Bx19, M100 and the M101 feed to the . Whether or not anybody thinks the riderbases of that + people needing to get between the two sides of St. Nicholas Park is substantial enough for an extension is up for debate.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Mysterious2train

[qjtransitmaster]

How fast is the BX33 between say 135th subway and st ann's ave in the bronx?

[qjtransitmaster]

Interesting there may be a way to increase the Bx33's ridership.

[B35 via Church]

I'm trying to say I wouldn't want the Bx33 to run on 145th St coming up from 135th St since that would take a little bit longer than running on 141st St instead. Since the 19 already runs on 145 St I just don't think the 33 should go there. I guess it depends on whether or not one thinks the greater riderbase on 145th makes up for the extra few minutes compared to going on 141st St. The 33 is (arguably) faster than the 19, M100 and M101 and it shouldn't change that by detouring. 

The way you made it sound was as if you were against extending it, period (and classifying it as a good thing, on top of it) -

Which didn't make sense on both fronts, because it was your idea to even extend the route to the other side of the park..... That's why I asked.

 

Anyway.... The idea of the 33 running along a part of 145th since the 19 already runs on 145th, is just as immaterial as running extended 33's along 141st or 145th IMO.....

 

The way I see it, the ultimate question is - Is it even worth it to extend the route from the station to somewhere on the other side of St. Nicholas park...... Not so much if it should use 141st or 145th.....

 

The Bx19 & M100/101 part of the original comment I got.

 

How fast is the BX33 between say 135th subway and st ann's ave in the bronx?

The route crawls from end to end....

I mean think about it, A short route like the Bx33 can't blaze a trail anyway, or else it wouldn't pick up much of anyone....

I'm not sure if they even run more than 4 buses on the route.....

 

Interesting there may be a way to increase the Bx33's ridership.

Yeah, such as what?

[qjtransitmaster]

The way you made it sound was as if you were against extending it, period (and classifying it as a good thing, on top of it) -

Which didn't make sense on both fronts, because it was your idea to even extend the route to the other side of the park..... That's why I asked.

 

Anyway.... The idea of the 33 running along a part of 145th since the 19 already runs on 145th, is just as immaterial as running extended 33's along 141st or 145th IMO.....

 

The way I see it, the ultimate question is - Is it even worth it to extend the route from the station to somewhere on the other side of St. Nicholas park...... Not so much if it should use 141st or 145th.....

 

The Bx19 & M100/101 part of the original comment I got.

 

 

The route crawls from end to end....

I mean think about it, A short route like the Bx33 can't blaze a trail anyway, or else it wouldn't pick up much of anyone....

I'm not sure if they even run more than 4 buses on the route.....

 

 

Yeah, such as what?

crawl? I thought the bx 33 was faster than the bx19 & 125th street lines? Isn't it? So basically what should take 10 mins as the schedule says it takes longer how much longer? If it's ridership is low how is it slow is the bx33 that unreliable? And to boost bx33 use that idea depends on how you answer those other questions cause I am not sure. If the line is too unreliable then that idea won't work.