Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[BrooklynIRT]

Well to Allan's credit, a SB-Rockaways route would be useful for neighborhood connectivity purposes and is not circuitous for those purposes. For purposes of Rockaway people getting to the subway, it is circuitous though. And given real-world financial conditions, it just does not make sense as a whole because the Rockaways are not that dense.

 

He strives to encourage transit use in every nook and cranny of the city. I respect that and appreciate his ambition in that department.

 

But I do not respect the fact that he stigmatizes the Junction at every chance he gets. Hell, even if he does not have a chance to stigmatize the Junction, he will create a chance to stigmatize it and then stigmatize it yet again. :-/

 

Or he brings up how others (who are probably a minority) stigmatize it. You could probably call it a case of trying to be too nice to the people. You just cannot please everyone. And again, these are their personal/political problems and nobody else's.

Edited May 17, 2012 by BrooklynIRT

[BrooklynBus]

Brooklyn IRT:

 

I will answer your other question here because quotes don't seem to be working on my IPad. I do not know why ridership on the Brighton line has been decreasing and increasing on the 2 and 5. I jus pet it may have to do with neighborhood demographics Perhaps population in southern Brooklyn is on the decline or jobs are increasing in New Jersey and Long Island while dropping in Manhattan so more people are driving to work. But if what you say is true why would you want to make an overcrowded line more overcrowded with the SBS? Wouldn't it be smart to encourage more people to take the Brighton Line with the Q51 especially if ridership is falling? If ridership on the Nostrand Avenue line is anything like it was when I used to see the trains at Franklin Avenue everyday from 1967 to 1977, every train was jammed to the gills during rush hour. Brighton trains aren't nearly as crowded.

 

(I'll get to B35 later today when I'm on my other computer and can use quotes.)

[Eric B]

Re: Q51

 

I would route something like that directly to Kings Hwy instead of having it backtrack to Sheepshead Bay.

One good thing about taking the people away from the Q35, is that you are diverting them from the IRT to the BMT, which has more room.

 

It reminds me of the QM16, which they had not too long ago extended to Roxbury, but then I believe quickly cut back. I had said that it might have been better off routed through Brooklyn, perhaps made an extension of one of the BM routes, instead of going way out of the way all the way via central Queens.

 

Again, my proposals for Bklyn had always been to use Beverley for the express routes from Flatbush or Ocean directly to the Prospect Expwy. All they've done is rerpoute a couple of them even further down traffic streets, to Park Circle.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Eric B

[Threxx]

Brooklyn IRT:

 

I will answer your other question here because quotes don't seem to be working on my IPad. I do not know why ridership on the Brighton line has been decreasing and increasing on the 2 and 5. I jus pet it may have to do with neighborhood demographics Perhaps population in southern Brooklyn is on the decline or jobs are increasing in New Jersey and Long Island while dropping in Manhattan so more people are driving to work. But if what you say is true why would you want to make an overcrowded line more overcrowded with the SBS? Wouldn't it be smart to encourage more people to take the Brighton Line with the Q51 especially if ridership is falling? If ridership on the Nostrand Avenue line is anything like it was when I used to see the trains at Franklin Avenue everyday from 1967 to 1977, every train was jammed to the gills during rush hour. Brighton trains aren't nearly as crowded.

 

(I'll get to B35 later today when I'm on my other computer and can use quotes.)

 

 

That notion is a bunch of BS though. While it may be true that Brighton ridership is decreasing, why do you want to further screw SB residents by packing their trains with people from another borough?! They are already suffering because of service cuts, why make it worse?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Brooklyn IRT:

 

I will answer your other question here because quotes don't seem to be working on my IPad. I do not know why ridership on the Brighton line has been decreasing and increasing on the 2 and 5. I jus pet it may have to do with neighborhood demographics Perhaps population in southern Brooklyn is on the decline or jobs are increasing in New Jersey and Long Island while dropping in Manhattan so more people are driving to work. But if what you say is true why would you want to make an overcrowded line more overcrowded with the SBS? Wouldn't it be smart to encourage more people to take the Brighton Line with the Q51 especially if ridership is falling? If ridership on the Nostrand Avenue line is anything like it was when I used to see the trains at Franklin Avenue everyday from 1967 to 1977, every train was jammed to the gills during rush hour. Brighton trains aren't nearly as crowded.

 

(I'll get to B35 later today when I'm on my other computer and can use quotes.)

 

 

I'll tell you why... The mentality in Sheepshead Bay at least with the new folks moving in is to jump in their fancy car... You see all of the Porsche's, BMW's, Mercedes Benz and other European luxury cars up and down Emmons Avenue and Sheepshead Bay Rd and you really think these folks are going to use the subway? Aside from that the line has been in and out with construction for I don't know how long. Me personally I even avoid the line and try using the instead for the main part of the commute and switch over at Coney Island if I have to. Becoming too slow... No one wants to deal with the stupid shuttles and all of that and take two trains to get to the city if you're in Southern Brooklyn. It's ridiculous. The commute is already a good 45 minutes from Sheepshead Bay to the city, so factor in having to take the so far then taking a shuttle bus and then getting back on the again... Forget it... They should have the express running seven days a week.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynIRT]

Brooklyn IRT:

 

I will answer your other question here because quotes don't seem to be working on my IPad. I do not know why ridership on the Brighton line has been decreasing and increasing on the 2 and 5. I jus pet it may have to do with neighborhood demographics Perhaps population in southern Brooklyn is on the decline or jobs are increasing in New Jersey and Long Island while dropping in Manhattan so more people are driving to work. But if what you say is true why would you want to make an overcrowded line more overcrowded with the SBS? Wouldn't it be smart to encourage more people to take the Brighton Line with the Q51 especially if ridership is falling? If ridership on the Nostrand Avenue line is anything like it was when I used to see the trains at Franklin Avenue everyday from 1967 to 1977, every train was jammed to the gills during rush hour. Brighton trains aren't nearly as crowded.

 

(I'll get to B35 later today when I'm on my other computer and can use quotes.)

 

 

Hey, the IRT is still needed for a lot of major destinations that the BMT does not serve, Allan. And again, the B44 in its current form is unused access as far as I am concerned, because most people can walk from its first stop to SB station faster than the bus can get from the first stop to its first subway connection. Do you not find this rather pathetic? It currently makes more sense to use the express bus, drive, or take the BMT to Atlantic and transfer to the IRT than it does to ride the B44 to the IRT if you want a part of Manhattan served by the IRT but not the BMT. The B36 shuttles seemed pretty indicative of the ineffectiveness (due to slowness) of the B44 in getting people from points south of "U" to a subway. I mean, people still use it to get from points south of "U" to the IRT, but still it has to feel like a bus ride from hell for those rushing to work or school since it stops on every block south of "U" and the limited hardly saves any time north of "U".

 

As far as the crowding of each line goes that only matters for people who have a choice of either the IRT or the BMT to get where they want to go. In that case, more power to them because now the IRT will be more easily accessible. So they can figure out which option they prefer or if they want to break the monotony they can now switch between lines every couple of days. Not reasonable under current conditions, again, due to the slowness of the B44. As far as line preference goes it is still not completely clear to me which line is easier to find a seat on since different people have different accounts on A LOT of this stuff (seat availiability, which line is more crowded, speed, delays, etc). I will either have to experience it myself many times or see a lot of video or photo evidence in order to determine whether the BMT or IRT is the go-to line if one wants a seat going in either direction or whatever parameters determine the rider's preference. The B44 SBS should also allow people who can take either the IRT or BMT to just board whichever bus they see first (SBS or B4, SBS or B36, SBS or B3, SBS or B7/B82) instead of being restricted to the crosstown lines.

 

And another thing. Would you be protesting the idea of directing more people to the IRT despite the lower passenger capacities even if they extended the to Voorhies Ave, which was what they originally wanted to do? If my estimates are correct then you can equate the effects of this extension to the effects of the B44 SBS since its stops will be much more concentrated south of "U" than between "U" and Flatbush.

Edited May 17, 2012 by BrooklynIRT

[BrooklynIRT]

If you want to send a bus from the Rockaways to the BMT I think your best course of action is to operate it to Newkirk somehow. Try Flatbush, "J", Ocean, Foster. Non-stop north of "J". But then seat availability on the train becomes a problem.

 

I know you want to improve the connectivity between SB neighborhood and the Rockaways and I support that, but I am just not so sure people would want to use the Q51 to get from the Rockaways to the BMT if it followed that circuitous (not saying that to be mean; it is just my observation/perception) route. For purposes of neighborhood connectivity, the Q51 is good. For purposes of relieving the IRT (*if it needs to be relieved*), another solution is needed. It is difficult because it seems like it would require you to re-route the Q35 since there is only so much $ to work with.

 

But then it makes things more difficult for those who actually need the IRT and causes the Q35 to miss a very popular (and increasingly popular) commercial hub and bus transfers. And the B41 loses a source of relief and this new routing sorta duplicates the B9 etc. Do more people ride the B9 to the from points south of "L" or the B41/Q35 to the ? Were more people using the B9 to the over the B41/Q35 to the when the was local? Or other times when there was no Brighton express and all Brighton services stopped at "M"?

 

My apologies for the other post Allan. I let off a lot of steam. I simply prefer that you not go on about the purported dangerousness of the Junction. Fair enough?

Edited May 17, 2012 by BrooklynIRT

[BrooklynBus]

lol.....

 

Tell me something.... Within a specific area, what's the difference between increasing service on a route that was previously unreliable (the B4 in this case) & creating some new route serving that same area (your Q51)? You're basically implicating introducing a new route is better than improving an existing route.... Already established ridership within Brooklyn vs questionable usage towards the Rockaways for Sheepshead patrons? uhh, yeah, I'm going for improving the route whose ridership is already established, I'm sorry....

 

Vv concern/inquiry below vV

 

 

Aside from giving Rockaway riders direct access to the Brighton, I don't get why you're sending this to the Rockaways.... Telling me "...to generally improve access" & stating "you don't know if there is demand or not until you ask" really came off as lame excuses.... It's more like, you didn't know where else to send that Q51 after you addressed the issues plaguing Sheepshead patrons as far as bus service goes..... I mean, you say you believe Rockaway folks would take a bus to the Brighton Line.... Yeah, I don't disbelieve that they would.....

 

The question is, would it be enough people from the Rockaways to justify sending buses down there?

My answer to that is a resounding No..... There is little-to-no reason to believe that there is a legitimate demand for a Sheepshead-Rockaway route...

 

 

And my answer is we don't know until we ask or try it as a trial. Something the MTA never does. As for why its better than fixing an existing route let me answer that. First, if the route is cut to Sheepshead Bay that would make it more reliable. Second, the Q51 will also pick up riders along Knapp Street to Sheepshead Bay Station. They will come from the B36 because they will have a shoirter walk, thereby improiving their commute. However, at 20 minute headways, they would not be attracted to it, just like people are not attracted to the B4 and use it only if they have no other alternative. It would not only be for Rockaway riders and people going to the subway, but for people going to the UA Theater from both directions and to Kings Plaza. I think ti could be very successful but you have to remember, ridership patterns don't change overnight. Trials must last at least 6 months. Three is not enough.

 

Yesterday I took the first B4 at 2 PM. It had 15 to 20 passengers. Would you believe that 5 of them had no idea that they were on the first bus since 9 AM? That leads me to believe that people are still waiting for the bus between 9 and 2, two years afte it stopped running.

[Kanarsie Guy]

I have Been a rider of both the B2 & B7 both routes have decent ridership. why not combine both routes by doing that u can save both the B2 & B7 from the chopping block. cost wise u give both routes more of a meaning now u have another option for south brooklyn. With only a minor Re-Reoute u can streamline the Route.

 

Toward KP

Current B7 Routes, Left on E 16 st, Current B2 Route to Kings Plaza

 

Toward Bedford-Stuyvesant

Current B2 Route, Right on E15 st, Right on Kings Highway, Current B7 Routes to Broadway & Halsey

 

Nobody Riders the B7 to CI Av anyway plus u still have the B82 so u don't lose any service.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have Been a rider of both the B2 & B7 both routes have decent ridership. why not combine both routes by doing that u can save both the B2 & B7 from the chopping block. cost wise u give both routes more of a meaning now u have another option for south brooklyn. With only a minor Re-Reoute u can streamline the Route.

 

Toward KP

Current B7 Routes, Left on E 16 st, Current B2 Route to Kings Plaza

 

Toward Bedford-Stuyvesant

Current B2 Route, Right on E15 st, Right on Kings Highway, Current B7 Routes to Broadway & Halsey

 

Nobody Riders the B7 to CI Av anyway plus u still have the B82 so u don't lose any service.

 

 

Not a bad idea at all... Everybody has been talking about extending the B2 forever... I like your idea better. The only question is how reliable is the B7? I've only used it along Kings Highway not too far from the Kings Highway train station and that was years ago. Back then it didn't seem to run all that frequent? How is it now??

[Threxx]

Not a bad idea at all... Everybody has been talking about extending the B2 forever... I like your idea better. The only question is how reliable is the B7? I've only used it along Kings Highway not too far from the Kings Highway train station and that was years ago. Back then it didn't seem to run all that frequent? How is it now??

 

 

It's not that frequent or reliable, to answer that question, I'll reply directly to his post.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not that frequent or reliable, to answer that question, I'll reply directly to his post.

 

 

Neither is the B2 so might as well combine them.

[Threxx]

I have Been a rider of both the B2 & B7 both routes have decent ridership. why not combine both routes by doing that u can save both the B2 & B7 from the chopping block. cost wise u give both routes more of a meaning now u have another option for south brooklyn. With only a minor Re-Reoute u can streamline the Route.

 

Toward KP

Current B7 Routes, Left on E 16 st, Current B2 Route to Kings Plaza

 

Toward Bedford-Stuyvesant

Current B2 Route, Right on E15 st, Right on Kings Highway, Current B7 Routes to Broadway & Halsey

 

Nobody Riders the B7 to CI Av anyway plus u still have the B82 so u don't lose any service.

 

 

On paper, this may look like a great idea, but your ideology on B7 ridership is wrong. The route gets little to no ridership beween the Saratoga segment and CI. That's why me & B35 had the B7 going to Canarsie to take over the E. 80 branch. There, it has more of a purpose. The B2 is a feeder. It gets little to no ridership other than rush hours. Combining these two underutilized routes probably won't save them, but will create a longer route that the would want to cut even more. It is a novel idea, but it isn't great in the long term. I will admit, it is a better idea than this "Q51" Allan is proposing... My plan to save the two routes were as follows:

 

B2: Relabel B30 and streamline with B31, both running along Kings Highway to Coney Island. The B82 would be cut back to Coney Island Avenue.

 

B7: Follow B17 "E. 80 Street" branch after Remsen Avenue. The new B32 route would replace it along Kings Hwy.

 

Neither is the B2 so might as well combine them.

 

 

Read the above post as to why not...

Edited May 17, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On paper, this may look like a great idea, but your ideology on B7 ridership is wrong. The route gets little to no ridership beween the Saratoga segment and CI. That's why me & B35 had the B7 going to Canarsie to take over the E. 80 branch. There, it has more of a purpose. The B2 is a feeder. It gets little to no ridership other than rush hours. Combining these two underutilized routes probably won't save them, but will create a longer route that the would want to cut even more. My plan to save the two routes were as follows:

 

B2: Relabel B30 and streamline with B31, both running along Kings Highway to Coney Island. The B82 would be cut back to Coney Island Avenue.

 

B7: Follow B17 "E. 80 Street" branch after Remsen Avenue. The new B32 route would replace it along Kings Hwy.

 

 

 

Read my next post as to why not...

 

 

I still say combine them and perhaps re-route the B7 northbound. The run is only about 30 minutes currently. The B2 run is maybe 20 minutes tops to Kings Plaza.

[Threxx]

I still say combine them and perhaps re-route the B7 northbound. The run is only about 30 minutes currently. The B2 run is maybe 20 minutes tops to Kings Plaza.

 

 

What's there to reroute? While it's not a passenger generator, Kings Highway is the most direct route from Bed-Stuy to Midwood. And don't even think about touching the one ridership base for the B7, a.k.a Bed-Stuy segment...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What's there to reroute? While it's not a passenger generator, Kings Highway is the most direct route from Bed-Stuy to Midwood. And don't even think about touching the one ridership base for the B7, a.k.a Bed-Stuy segment...

 

 

lol... Why not touch it?? Apparently folks from "do or die Bed-Stuy" don't use the line anyway.

[Threxx]

lol... Why not touch it?? Apparently folks from "do or die Bed-Stuy" don't use the line anyway.

 

 

Because contrary to that statement, people do use the line up there, and they'd be pissed if anyone were to reroute it. And where would you reroute it to anyway?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Because contrary to that statement, people do use the line up there, and they'd be pissed if anyone were to reroute it. And where would you reroute it to anyway?

 

 

Where do they use it to??

[Threxx]

Where do they use it to??

 

 

Fulton St, for the & B25, to E. New York & Pitkin, for B12 & 14, and to Church Avenue for B35.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Fulton St, for the & B25, to E. New York & Pitkin, for B12 & 14, and to Church Avenue for B35.

 

 

Yeah but they're not using it for Midwood. I'm sure they can find another bus to use.

[Threxx]

Yeah but they're not using it for Midwood. I'm sure they can find another bus to use.

 

 

Why you'd you do that though? The route is used by the elderly, and the B47 & B46 are 2 blocks away on both sides. Again, you're not answering my question. How would you change the route?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why you'd you do that though? The route is used by the elderly, and the B47 & B46 are 2 blocks away on both sides. Again, you're not answering my question. How would you change the route?

 

 

I haven't figured that out yet, but it makes no sense for the route to have usage in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Besides I'm sure another route could be re-routed for that segment anyway.

[Guest MTA Bus]

B51

 

Runs between Downtown Brooklyn Fulton Mall and Broadway Junction Station

via: Atlantic Avenue

Runs: 24/7

Limited: No, due to the fact that the are a couple blocks away from Atlantic

[checkmatechamp13]

They should have the express running seven days a week.

 

 

If the problem is with all the GOs with splitting the and all that, what would adding weekend service do? It would just clog up the tracks at the terminals more (If they split it at Atlantic Avenue, you'd have a big mess on your hands). Back when I lived in Brighton Beach, the wasn't too bad if there weren't any GOs or anything. Of course, I was an expressaholic so of course I would've loved it if the ran as well, but what can you do?

 

My apologies for the other post Allan. I let off a lot of steam. I simply prefer that you not go on about the purported dangerousness of the Junction. Fair enough?

 

 

Unless it's something that's been going on since before I joined the forums, I don't see your point. It's not like he's ranting about the Junction being dangerous or anything.

 

I have Been a rider of both the B2 & B7 both routes have decent ridership. why not combine both routes by doing that u can save both the B2 & B7 from the chopping block. cost wise u give both routes more of a meaning now u have another option for south brooklyn. With only a minor Re-Reoute u can streamline the Route.

 

Toward KP

Current B7 Routes, Left on E 16 st, Current B2 Route to Kings Plaza

 

Toward Bedford-Stuyvesant

Current B2 Route, Right on E15 st, Right on Kings Highway, Current B7 Routes to Broadway & Halsey

 

Nobody Riders the B7 to CI Av anyway plus u still have the B82 so u don't lose any service.

 

 

What would be the point in that? Nobody going to Kings Highway is going to travel all the way around Midwood when they can just transfer at Flatbush Avenue to the B9/B41 (does the Q35 stop there as well?). For any sort of combination, I would've thought you would've had it take Kings Highway-Flatbush Avenue-Avenue R. If you're going to just tie the ends together, you might as well keep them seperate.

 

And yes, you do lose service because now there are fewer buses along Kings Highway for those going to/from the subway (and B35 mentioned that sometimes they don't just use it if they missed the B82, but also if they can't fit on the bus)

 

lol... Why not touch it?? Apparently folks from "do or die Bed-Stuy" don't use the line anyway.

 

 

No, B35 mentioned that the Bed-Stuy portion is the part where people actually use the line. It's south of Church Avenue where usage drops (except west of Flatbush Avenue where it's used as a backup for the B82)

 

Yeah but they're not using it for Midwood. I'm sure they can find another bus to use.

 

 

So what does that have to do with rerouting it on the northern end?

 

I haven't figured that out yet, but it makes no sense for the route to have usage in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Besides I'm sure another route could be re-routed for that segment anyway.

 

 

So why are you just rerouting it for the sake of rerouting it? And what do you mean "It makes no sense for the route to have usage in Bed-Stuy"? If it's used, it's used. Everybody mentioned that the strongest part of the route is north of Church Avenue.

[Threxx]

I haven't figured that out yet, but it makes no sense for the route to have usage in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Besides I'm sure another route could be re-routed for that segment anyway.

 

 

Look at a map...

 

The B46, 47, and 60, the closest routes to Saratoga, each have their respective segments to run on. Nothing can simply be rerouted without repercussions. Just leave the B7 alone up there. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.