Hypothetical Super-Express

[Tokkemon]

Let me preface by saying this is only conceptual and I'm not thinking of the MTA doing this in any near future. However, I'm making a fantasy map and I had an idea of super-express and express sharing the same tracks for a limited time during the day. Is this possible or would there be delays abound?

 

To illustrate more clearly let me introduce this abstract hypothetical situation:

 

 

Say I have stations A - G. Station A and G are "super-express" stations where all trains stop. Station D is an "express" station where express and local trains stop but super-express would skip. Stations B, C, E, and F are local where only local trains stop. My question is, could the Super-express and Express services share the same tracks? Local would be on its own local track.

 

Thoughts?

[NY1635]

The Super Duper Express train that everyone wants will never happen. There will never be a super express because it will screw with and affect the services of local trains and express trains.

[error46146]

They did this before, it was called the JFK Express charging an extra fare and stopping only in Manhattan then ran non-stop to JFK Airport..

 

Didn't work out too well.. In addition I don't think there would be any corridor where this would be feasible (except for the 7 Express); there aren't many other corridors where the trains get packed till the last stop. In addition as stated above there will always be the problem of other trains getting in the way and service being screwed up, especially with the tight headways in the subway.

[Roadcruiser1]

The Super Duper Express train that everyone wants will never happen. There will never be a super express because it will screw with and affect the services of local trains and express trains.

 

 

Super express service proposed in the past had it's own set of tracks. Therefore it won't have any affect on local and express services.

 

They did this before, it was called the JFK Express charging an extra fare and stopping only in Manhattan then ran non-stop to JFK Airport..

 

Didn't work out too well.. In addition I don't think there would be any corridor where this would be feasible (except for the 7 Express); there aren't many other corridors where the trains get packed till the last stop. In addition as stated above there will always be the problem of other trains getting in the way and service being screwed up, especially with the tight headways in the subway.

 

 

The never was a super express service. It used express tracks to get where it needed to go. When it ran they took the off the express tracks. The was local. The was express.

 

To answer you Tokkemon I don't think it is possible for express and super express service to share the same track. It would have to be a six tracked subway line. The proposed Second Avenue Subway in the 1930's had six tracks because of this idea.

[Tokkemon]

Guys, I'm not asking about the validity of super-express, only how express and super-express could share tracks. If two local trains can skip-stop, why not the same with expresses?

[Roadcruiser1]

Guys, I'm not asking about the validity of super-express, only how express and super-express could share tracks. If two local trains can skip-stop, why not the same with expresses?

 

 

The problem is the super express will have to skip express platforms. I don't think that is quite workable.

[error46146]

Having inconsistent service on the same track isn't the best idea in the subway.. It works for a railroad where everything is spread out, but in the subway it won't work as well simply due to the nature of the subway system.

 

Using your example, the 2 and 3 train uses the same express track. What happens when a 2 train gets held up longer than scheduled or breaks down at Station D?

 

To me this idea works better on bus routes where buses can overtake one another if one gets stuck at a certain location.. Can't do that with trains

[Tokkemon]

The problem is the super express will have to skip express platforms. I don't think that is quite workable.

 

 

Trains skip platforms all the time.

 

Having inconsistent service on the same track isn't the best idea in the subway.. It works for a railroad where everything is spread out, but in the subway it won't work as well simply due to the nature of the subway system.

 

Using your example, the 2 and 3 train uses the same express track. What happens when a 2 train gets held up longer than scheduled or breaks down at Station D?

 

To me this idea works better on bus routes where buses can overtake one another if one gets stuck at a certain location.. Can't do that with trains

 

 

Would sets of switches at those key stations help to alleviate this conundrum?

[NewFlyer 230]

Yeah they skip station but if u ever noticed most of the time they slow down in case some people are near or on the yellow line. U can easily get knocked over with a train passing the station at 30-35 miles.

[TwoTimer]

An express and super-express cannot share trackage for any length of time if it is indeed the area of skipped stations for the super. Things would have to be very precise, and was stated earlier, its better suited for railroads. But I guess your idea is this:

 

Lets take that suggested and on the Lenox corridor using existing trackage. The would bypass 135th not using the spur (before people suggest I want to use it). Both services stop at 125th. The goes back to its role and goes straight to 96, while the makes stops at the bypass stations. Then the continues on and stops at TSq, bypassing 72nd. This only works IF the was put right in front of the , and both trains ran on time. If the gets in front (possible with how easily NYCT trains can be delayed), idea's done. Now the quirks...

 

1. You force people wanting those bypassed stops to get off at 125 or 96, costing the valuable time saved.

 

2. Eventually if its rush hour the will catch up to the in front of it but can't overtake it because they share trackage and therefore goes back to regular express.

 

3. If that has a delay at TSq, you do realize the behind it cannot bypass 72nd anymore.

[alejr88]

 

 

Super express service proposed in the past had it's own set of tracks. Therefore it won't have any affect on local and express services.

 

 

 

The never was a super express service. It used express tracks to get where it needed to go. When it ran they took the off the express tracks. The was local. The was express.

 

To answer you Tokkemon I don't think it is possible for express and super express service to share the same track. It would have to be a six tracked subway line. The proposed Second Avenue Subway in the 1930's had six tracks because of this idea.

 

 

Yeah express stations can look like DeKalb Avenue with super express skipping that station. However, the express tracks have to be empty if there were to be a super express train.

[peacemak3r]

The problem is the super express will have to skip express platforms. I don't think that is quite workable.

 

 

The video's not the same concept, but shows an "express" train bypassing an "express" stop.

 

http://youtu.be/-wwene5toMk

[B3 Via Av U]

Yeah express stations can look like DeKalb Avenue with super express skipping that station. However, the express tracks have to be empty if there were to be a super express train.

 

Correct.

[FamousNYLover]

What time when I was rerouted Coney Island-bound on Sea Beach Line was doing battery run skip-stop on local. Because of that, it catches up at Coney Island-bound doing regular local, so super express or express on local track wouldn't work out.

[Gorgor]

Well typically most "express" stations are major transfer points or major stations. Give some examples of which stations could be bypassed.

 

Also, the savings in time we're talking about for skipping one stop can't be more than 5 minutes, and anything more than that would result in delays because it'd get stuck behind a regular express train.

[TheSubwayStation]

Guys, I'm not asking about the validity of super-express, only how express and super-express could share tracks. If two local trains can skip-stop, why not the same with expresses?

 

But you see, with skip-stop, both local trains alternate stops (and each one theoretically makes the same number of stops). With super-express, one train makes fewer stops than the other train on the same track, which causes delays. Remember, there isn't such a thing as a skip-stop/local setup; there can only be two skip stop trains.

[Roadcruiser1]

Remember a super express service would skip many important stations for the speed of service.

[Tokkemon]

What if the local tracks where used to get the delaying express train out of the way? It might take some clever scheduling but it certainly seems plausible. Say we have a switches between stations F and G. Couldn't the express hop on the local track there?

 

EDIT:

 

Or even better: With switches on both sides of Station D, if the and left at the same time from Station A, the would pass through via the express tracks while the would stop on the local. The only issue would be headways I guess. But, like I said, it would only be a temporary thing during the day (Rush hours only).

[Gorgor]

What if the local tracks where used to get the delaying express train out of the way? It might take some clever scheduling but it certainly seems plausible. Say we have a switches between stations F and G. Couldn't the express hop on the local track there?

 

EDIT:

 

Or even better: With switches on both sides of Station D, if the and left at the same time from Station A, the would pass through via the express tracks while the would stop on the local. The only issue would be headways I guess. But, like I said, it would only be a temporary thing during the day (Rush hours only).

 

 

This is the MTA... do you honestly think that they can schedule anything properly?

[Roadcruiser1]

The old proposals always had super express service on their own track.

 

 

I don't know how workable it is today though.

[Mr Railfan]

Yeah they skip station but if u ever noticed most of the time they slow down in case some people are near or on the yellow line. U can easily get knocked over with a train passing the station at 30-35 miles.

 

They slow down because in the rule book it states 15 MPH leaving the station if you are bypassing it. In my opinion , i think this is stupid and if people don't hear the train blasting on its horn as it approaches - enters the station , its their fault (of course there should be some sort of ADA accessible Display which displays if the train is approaching and or stopping) . Take the SIRR express service as an example , they blast through stations at 55- 60 mph.

[TheSubwayStation]

They slow down because in the rule book it states 15 MPH leaving the station if you are bypassing it. In my opinion , i think this is stupid and if people don't hear the train blasting on its horn as it approaches - enters the station , its their fault (of course there should be some sort of ADA accessible Display which displays if the train is approaching and or stopping) . Take the SIRR express service as an example , they blast through stations at 55- 60 mph.

 

The rule isn't to protect people on the platform; it's to make sure the T/O has enough time to see the signal after the station (and stop the train if necessary). In many cases, there could be a curve in/after the platform that would block his or her view. The signal system isn't designed to have trains blasting through stations.

[Gorgor]

The rule isn't to protect people on the platform; it's to make sure the T/O has enough time to see the signal after the station (and stop the train if necessary). In many cases, there could be a curve in/after the platform that would block his or her view. The signal system isn't designed to have trains blasting through stations.

 

 

A year or so ago I was on an uptown and at 28th Street he announced that he'd be skipping 33rd. He didn't slow down at all and just went straight through the station blasting the horn.

[TheSubwayStation]

A year or so ago I was on an uptown and at 28th Street he announced that he'd be skipping 33rd. He didn't slow down at all and just went straight through the station blasting the horn.

 

Well, nothing prevents T/Os from breaking the rule, like this:

 

It seems pretty safe in this location, because it's a straight track and the T/O knows it's unoccupied by other trains. But that's not always the case.

[Tokkemon]

So, assuming a train can properly see any signals (hint, ATC) it *could* blaze through a station?