NY Post: MTA To Increase Service On Three Crowded Subway Lines Next Year

[GreatOne2k]

1TPH on ANY PORTION of ANY LINE at ANY TIME is beyond unacceptable and the BX55 is a BUS...Trains are different...they carry more people. Lefferts Branch service is fine the way it is.

 

 

Do you think 2tph is also unacceptable?

 

MTA already runs 2 tph on those lines at times (at least going N/B) during the evening (except Saturday night), when the normal minimum is 3 tph. Lefferts NIMBYs will put up with infrequent service to make sure they get the instead of the , so they probably will put up with it. Bx55 at the time was no ordinary bus, it was a train replacement bus.

[Jamaica Express]

Do you think 2tph is also unacceptable?

 

MTA already runs 2 tph on those lines at times (at least going N/B) during the evening (except Saturday night), when the normal minimum is 3 tph. Lefferts NIMBYs will put up with infrequent service to make sure they get the instead of the , so they probably will put up with it. Bx55 at the time was no ordinary bus, it was a train replacement bus.

 

 

First of all, this whole "40 MINUTE Headway" your promoting is not true. The Lefferts Shuttle runs EVERY 20 MINUTES at night (3TPH) for all hours (with ONE EXCEPTION of a 40 minute gap that ONLY TAKES PLACE ONCE IN EACH DIRECTION on SUNDAY AM which is between 6:25 and 7.05 AM Southbound and 5:59 and 6:29AM Northbound which is only 30 minutes ) The operates every 20 minutes during its entire route during night hours, thus maintaing service every 20 Minutes to/from Far Rockaway (3TPH). The is completely irrelevant to this entire topic, because running it late night at all, would be a WASTE OF MONEY. The is perfectly fine the way it is. Your rationalization that people would put up with "infrequent" service to get the over the is something that I'm not even going to address. As for the Bx55 being a train replacement bus or not..IT'S STILL A BUS. Any one who has studied ridership patterns in the past know...that whenever a portion of a subway line requires bussing or is even significantly rerouted, ridership naturally reduces because people end up finding alternate ways to get to their destination (Especially when other subway lines/bus routes are near) Perfect example when the don't go to Brooklyn on certain weekends due to G.O.'s, there used be a shuttle to bridge the gap between Brooklyn Bridge and Atlantic Ave stations ...IT WAS EMPTY...so they discontinued it because A.) there are other nearby stations and B.) running it was a clear waste of money..sort of like how your proposal would be, not to mention it would unnecessarily inconvenience people. None the less, the BX55 was probably running on reduced headways for the simple fact that ridership itself naturally reduced because of the major G.O., running it at the same headway the trains run most likely would have been costly and unnecessary.

[qjtransitmaster]

First of all, this whole "40 MINUTE Headway" your promoting is not true. The Lefferts Shuttle runs EVERY 20 MINUTES at night (3TPH) for all hours (with ONE EXCEPTION of a 40 minute gap that ONLY TAKES PLACE ONCE IN EACH DIRECTION on SUNDAY AM which is between 6:25 and 7.05 AM Southbound and 5:59 and 6:29AM Northbound which is only 30 minutes ) The operates every 20 minutes during its entire route during night hours, thus maintaing service every 20 Minutes to/from Far Rockaway (3TPH). The is completely irrelevant to this entire topic, because running it late night at all, would be a WASTE OF MONEY. The is perfectly fine the way it is. Your rationalization that people would put up with "infrequent" service to get the over the is something that I'm not even going to address. As for the Bx55 being a train replacement bus or not..IT'S STILL A BUS. Any one who has studied ridership patterns in the past know...that whenever a portion of a subway line requires bussing or is even significantly rerouted, ridership naturally reduces because people end up finding alternate ways to get to their destination (Especially when other subway lines/bus routes are near) Perfect example when the don't go to Brooklyn on certain weekends due to G.O.'s, there used be a shuttle to bridge the gap between Brooklyn Bridge and Atlantic Ave stations ...IT WAS EMPTY...so they discontinued it because A.) there are other nearby stations and B.) running it was a clear waste of money..sort of like how your proposal would be, not to mention it would unnecessarily inconvenience people. None the less, the BX55 was probably running on reduced headways for the simple fact that ridership itself naturally reduced because of the major G.O., running it at the same headway the trains run most likely would have been costly and unnecessary.

 

Best I heard so far if there was 40 min gaps on any subway line people will RIOT. I really hope people don't try to compare the subway to MNRR and LIRR. Cause eventually even those lines will not have 40 min headways anymore at the rate MTA is INCREASING service on the Railroads. Jamacia that last was not at you just stating a point.

[GreatOne2k]

First of all, this whole "40 MINUTE Headway" your promoting is not true. The Lefferts Shuttle runs EVERY 20 MINUTES at night (3TPH) for all hours (with ONE EXCEPTION of a 40 minute gap that ONLY TAKES PLACE ONCE IN EACH DIRECTION on SUNDAY AM which is between 6:25 and 7.05 AM Southbound and 5:59 and 6:29AM Northbound which is only 30 minutes ) The operates every 20 minutes during its entire route during night hours, thus maintaing service every 20 Minutes to/from Far Rockaway (3TPH). The is completely irrelevant to this entire topic, because running it late night at all, would be a WASTE OF MONEY. The is perfectly fine the way it is. Your rationalization that people would put up with "infrequent" service to get the over the is something that I'm not even going to address. As for the Bx55 being a train replacement bus or not..IT'S STILL A BUS. Any one who has studied ridership patterns in the past know...that whenever a portion of a subway line requires bussing or is even significantly rerouted, ridership naturally reduces because people end up finding alternate ways to get to their destination (Especially when other subway lines/bus routes are near) Perfect example when the don't go to Brooklyn on certain weekends due to G.O.'s, there used be a shuttle to bridge the gap between Brooklyn Bridge and Atlantic Ave stations ...IT WAS EMPTY...so they discontinued it because A.) there are other nearby stations and B.) running it was a clear waste of money..sort of like how your proposal would be, not to mention it would unnecessarily inconvenience people. None the less, the BX55 was probably running on reduced headways for the simple fact that ridership itself naturally reduced because of the major G.O., running it at the same headway the trains run most likely would have been costly and unnecessary.

 

 

 

2 tph is also 30 minute headways, I was talking about evening service when train branches have gaps more MORE than 20 minutes, the listed gaps show the 30 minute gaps. I never said the Lefferts shuttle itself ran 40 minutes. On Sundays it runs 20 minutes (the 6:45 is shown on the main schedule and is not printed in the shuttle schedule)

 

N/B evening schedules

Weekday schedule: Lefferts - 10:21, 10:45, 11:10, 11:38, 12:08, 12:20

Weekday Far Rockaway: 10:11, 10:36, 11:02, 11:32, 12:02, 12:22

Sunday Far Rockaway: 9:09, 9:36, 10:00, 10:30, 11:00, 11:30, 12:02

Sunday Lefferts: 9:18, 9:42, 10:12, 10:38, 11:08, 11:38, 12:08

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tacur.pdf

 

The Bx15 now runs 20 minutes overnight north of 149 St (replacing Bx55 service and 8 service) so the MTA doesn't think it is unnecessary. That was an El demolition, NOT a GO and from 1973 - 1997 people NEEDED the Bx55 for the free transfer (no other bus would allow a free transfer until Metrocard gold), so they didn't have a lot of options if they lived near 3rd Avenue without a double fare. The 161 St branch split late night service looks like it was in effect right from 1973 until at least 1995, 1996, or 1997 (20 minute combined late night headway, 40 minutes each branch). And during GOs buses tend to run MORE frequently than trains ever would due to lower capacity.

[GreatOne2k]

Best I heard so far if there was 40 min gaps on any subway line people will RIOT. I really hope people don't try to compare the subway to MNRR and LIRR. Cause eventually even those lines will not have 40 min headways anymore at the rate MTA is INCREASING service on the Railroads. Jamacia that last was not at you just stating a point.

 

 

MTA not too long ago was proposing 30 minute late night service, luckily that didn't happen.

[Wallyhorse]

Ok, waiting for a bus is different than waiting for a subway. Do you really think 40 minute headways to two separate branches on the overnight would really work?

 

No way!

 

If you were to have half the trains go to Lefferts, you would need to go to 12-minute headways (5TPH or five trains on each branch every two hours) during the overnight. Would it be worth it so each branch has a train every 24 minutes then?

[R32 3838]

TBH, the should run overnights ONLY Between 168-WTC, let the be Express in manhattan, I rode the at night, its horrible, it may be 20 mintues for a train to come, but because of track and signal work and etc. during the late nights its like waiting 35 mintues for a train (thats almost every line though) but the being all local between 207th st and Far Rockaway to me is too long thats a 2 and a half hour ride, by having service like 2-3 trainsets running between 168th and WTC would not hurt anything

[Fresh Pond]

True but I would simply add more service so the can be 24/7 express is easy actually with 3 methods

 

Method 1: Extend Lefferts shuttle to hoyt st and reactivate that platform that is abandoned

 

OR

 

Eliminate lefferts shuttle make 24/7 express south of 59th street manhattan and let be manhattan local extend late night to coney island via culver line and reroute night to lefferts making local stops. OR Extend to coney island at night add more cars and reroute to lefferts via fulton local.

 

OR the asshat way of screwing over local riders making a late night shuttle bus making all local stops from broadway jct to downtown brooklyn then to WTC. express 24/7 I think the last way would be the least popular.

 

 

can be done extend late night to brooklyn bridge via lex local then can be 24/7 express.

 

Who the hell would benefit from any proposal you just said? You threw this same damn idea out in another thread

[GreatOne2k]

TBH, the should run overnights ONLY Between 168-WTC, let the be Express in manhattan, I rode the at night, its horrible, it may be 20 mintues for a train to come, but because of track and signal work and etc. during the late nights its like waiting 35 mintues for a train (thats almost every line though) but the being all local between 207th st and Far Rockaway to me is too long thats a 2 and a half hour ride, by having service like 2-3 trainsets running between 168th and WTC would not hurt anything

 

 

Just like the old AA which used to run overnight until the 1970s budget cuts

[qjtransitmaster]

Who the hell would benefit from any proposal you just said? You threw this same damn idea out in another thread

 

hmm where do I begin becomes faster and people on the fulton line don't have to transfer to reach lefferts what else lex riders get a faster ride to brooklyn. get to lex line with fewer transfers. was in response to others here.

[Caelestor]

In general, not every subway rider needs a seat, but if people are having trouble getting off and on the trains, it's time to increase frequency.

 

Top Priorities as mainly an IRT rider:

 

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

Decrease headways to 8 minutes, but 10 is probably more realistic at this time.

The honestly doesn't need to have its headways reduced; the problem is that the train is a poor supplement on the weekends (not running into Brookyln + 12 minute headways is bad).

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

[AndrewJC]

The only way you could remove the Lefferts Boulevard Shuttle switching at Euclid Avenue on the IND Fulton Street Line WITHOUT rerouting the or is to simply make the run every 15 minutes overnight with full-time service on the Lefferts Boulevard branch (30 minutes for the Far Rock and Lefferts branches). But that won't do of course...

 

 

That's a 33% increase in service, which costs money. Is the A so overcrowded at night that it needs a 33% boost in service? And riders south of Rock Blvd. would have less frequent service than they have now - every 30 minutes instead of every 20.

 

Or run the overnight with 40 minute headways to both Lefferts and Far Rockaway. MTA did this with the overnight Bx55 when service was split between 149 St and 161 St .

 

 

Who would benefit from that? Currently, everybody has 20-minute service for most of the night. By your proposal, the branches get 40-minute service.

 

If you were to have half the trains go to Lefferts, you would need to go to 12-minute headways (5TPH or five trains on each branch every two hours) during the overnight. Would it be worth it so each branch has a train every 24 minutes then?

 

 

That's a 67% increase in service, which costs money. Is the A so overcrowded at night that it needs a 67% boost in service? And riders south of Rock Blvd. would have less frequent service than they have now - every 24 minutes instead of every 20.

 

TBH, the should run overnights ONLY Between 168-WTC, let the be Express in manhattan, I rode the at night, its horrible, it may be 20 mintues for a train to come, but because of track and signal work and etc. during the late nights its like waiting 35 mintues for a train (thats almost every line though) but the being all local between 207th st and Far Rockaway to me is too long thats a 2 and a half hour ride, by having service like 2-3 trainsets running between 168th and WTC would not hurt anything

 

 

The A runs every 20 minutes at night, like every other line, and it takes under 2 hours to get from 207th to Far Rock at night - which, by the way, is a very long trip, one which very few subway riders take. Running the C in Manhattan at night would be a pretty expensive way to save you about 5 minutes. It would also cut off direct access between Manhattan local stations and Brooklyn, so a lot of riders would have to transfer from a 10-minute service to a 20-minute service.

 

In general, not every subway rider needs a seat, but if people are having trouble getting off and on the trains, it's time to increase frequency.

 

Top Priorities as mainly an IRT rider:

 

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

Decrease headways to 8 minutes, but 10 is probably more realistic at this time.

The honestly doesn't need to have its headways reduced; the problem is that the train is a poor supplement on the weekends (not running into Brookyln + 12 minute headways is bad).

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

 

 

As I said on Thursday: "Very nice idea, but don't forget that, due to very common GO's, weekend frequencies on the 7th Avenue line are capped where they are now. The only way to increase 1 or 2 service is to decrease 3 service, and the 3 already has 12 minute headways." The same idea applies on Lex.

[Shortline Bus]

In general, not every subway rider needs a seat, but if people are having trouble getting off and on the trains, it's time to increase frequency.

 

Top Priorities as mainly an IRT rider:

 

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

Decrease headways to 8 minutes, but 10 is probably more realistic at this time.

The honestly doesn't need to have its headways reduced; the problem is that the train is a poor supplement on the weekends (not running into Brookyln + 12 minute headways is bad).

Decrease headways to 6 minutes.

 

 

The does not need to run to Brooklyn on weekends. Yes sometimes there a few standeess on the weekends but unless its late I dont find it to be SRO crowded. I dont understand myself the need to have GO's on the on many weekends during the year as i am wondering if the is using that excuse for what they really want and that run the weekends as a Bronx only shuttle.

 

The other suggestions i agree. Those headways is what needed between 12 Noon-9pm Saturdays and 12 Noon-7pm Sundays.

[RollOver]

@AndrewJC

 

Wow, so how about I suggest they should eliminate the Lefferts Boulevard shuttle and replace it with a shuttle bus for the Lefferts Boulevard branch? It still would eliminate the switching at the Euclid Avenue express tracks. Have the shuttle run between Lefferts and Rockaway Boulevards at 20 minute headways. Problem solved. *sigh*

[Wallyhorse]

That's a 67% increase in service, which costs money. Is the A so overcrowded at night that it needs a 67% boost in service? And riders south of Rock Blvd. would have less frequent service than they have now - every 24 minutes instead of every 20.

 

That's why I asked the last part as a question in would be worth actually doing.

 

The one other solution to this would be to also have the run 24/7 with overnights, the extended to Lefferts and running every 20 minutes. The could be sped up somewhat by overnights starting at 125th or 145th instead of 168th and also run via the between West 4th and Jay Streets on overnight runs (in that scenario, both the and would be local on 8th Avenue and CPW overnights much like the and are on Broadway and the and are on Lexington, but the would be express in Brooklyn) OR you can run the as normal, but simply extend the to Lefferts (with the express from wherever the starts at all times). That would eliminate the need for the overnight Lefferts shuttle in any event and one way or another test whether the can eventually replace the on the Lefferts branch (as I would eventually want to do it, on weekends first and then full-time) and allow the to focus (once the Rockaway branch is fully rebuilt) on Far Rockaway to better serve both JFK and the Casino.

[Threxx]

The one other solution to this would be to also have the run 24/7 with overnights, the extended to Lefferts and running every 20 minutes.

 

STOP RIGHT THERE. You already wen't into foamerland. Just stop.

[Shortline Bus]

Guys. This is only time i say this. Please lets focus on the NY Post article on the small service increase on several lines by summer 2013 and not into another etc. service proposal idea. Or else this thread is a wrap. Thanks

[GreatOne2k]

@AndrewJC

 

Wow, so how about I suggest they should eliminate the Lefferts Boulevard shuttle and replace it with a shuttle bus for the Lefferts Boulevard branch? It still would eliminate the switching at the Euclid Avenue express tracks. Have the shuttle run between Lefferts and Rockaway Boulevards at 20 minute headways. Problem solved. *sigh*

 

 

Just like what MTA used to do with the late night, until the Harlem politicians got the to run late night again.

A bus would be cheaper than a shuttle train, but if the Lefferts NIMBYs start complaining, it will be like the all over again.

[Grand Concourse]

STOP RIGHT THERE. You already wen't into foamerland. Just stop.

 

He completely missed the point about that area not needing that much service late at night. And no surprise, he's still talking about that casino...

 

@rollover, why would that be any better? What makes you think the switching at Euclid is that bad? Why force people onto a shuttle bus if they don't even run a shuttle bus for the Rockaway Park segment [before Hurricane Sandy hit] which has among the lowest ridership levels in the system?

-

Why can't people just leave the system alone instead of over complicating things?

[RollOver]

Just like what MTA used to do with the late night, until the Harlem politicians got the to run late night again.

A bus would be cheaper than a shuttle train, but if the Lefferts NIMBYs start complaining, it will be like the all over again.

 

 

Thanks.

 

@GC

 

First off, I was just answering the stuff that Wallyhorse and a few others who brought up the Lefferts Boulevard shuttle and the proposal thing etc etc. And as GreakOne2k pointed out, a shuttle bus is cheaper. Plus, even with the reroute to Lefferts save money as few people said in the past threads. And what do you mean by I'm over complicating things? *Yeah, that last question was also directed at me* It's an attempt to fix something that's WRONG with the goddamn system which has a hell of a lot of flaws like say at the 60th-59th Street tube, 34th and Prince Streets, the 's longest route between Far Rockaway and 207th Street 24/7 which results in less maintenance of any cars it uses, the Nostrand Avenue Junction diverge which causes delays on the and when they meet up there or at Franklin Avenue station etc etc....................

[Grand Concourse]

The junction past Franklin is delay prone, but not end of the world bad. There's not much that can be done about it and both branches needs both 7th and Lexington av service. So there's no point in sending all 7th Av service down to Flatbush and Lexington av to Utica/New Lots. I'm sure the people that actually works on the lines can better explain to you that sometimes as imperfect as things are, it 'works'. That's why 'foaming' [not directed at you] rarely works.

 

If a shuttle bus is so much cheaper, they'd have shuttle buses for the Rock Park segment than the Lefferts portion. And I don't bother taking what some people say seriously anymore since it's always the same unworkable plans they keep posting and not worth reading.

 

to Lefferts? Really? I already shot that idea down. There's no way that makes sense when you have to shift the over to Culver or extend the down all just to avoid running the . You don't need that much service on Fulton. Late at night, the should be enough as you don't need that much service. The Lefferts branch is fine with the at night. It is also useful since it is not dependent on the [unless it's for a connecting transfer]. Why would you need to replace it with a bus? What's wrong with the current late night set up? Late at night trains would normally go to Far Rockaway [now Howard Beach].

 

There's no need to 'over complicate' matters as I said.

[RollOver]

to Lefferts? Really? I already shot that idea down. There's no way that makes sense when you have to shift the over to Culver or extend the down all just to avoid running the . You don't need that much service on Fulton. THe should be enough. The Lefferts branch is fine with the at night. There's no need to 'over complicate' matters as I said.

 

I said even the to Lefferts saves money because it reduces the switching at the express tracks of Euclid, I didn't say anything else about that will result too in much service over the Fulton Street Line at night with both the and locals and the extension of the to Coney Island like you said. Why did you acted as if I said that? I just said the to Lefferts only helps by saving money and reducing the switching at the express tracks of Euclid, that's all..............

[RollOver]

The junction past Franklin is delay prone, but not end of the world bad. There's not much that can be done about it and both branches needs both 7th and Lexington av service. So there's no point in sending all 7th Av service down to Flatbush and Lexington av to Utica/New Lots. I'm sure the people that actually works on the lines can better explain to you that sometimes as imperfect as things are, it 'works'. That's why 'foaming' [not directed at you] rarely works.

 

That's pretty much the entire reason why the results are those constant delays because of the way it was built but I'm not saying (nor going out of my way) to send all Lexington Avenue trains to Utica on the express and all Seventh Avenue trains to Flatbush and New Lots on the local..................

[Grand Concourse]

I said even the to Lefferts saves money because it reduces the switching at the express tracks of Euclid, I didn't say anything else about that will result too in much service over the Fulton Street Line at night with both the and locals and the extension of the to Coney Island like you said. Why did you acted as if I said that? I just said the to Lefferts only helps by saving money and reducing the switching at the express tracks of Euclid, that's all..............

If you send the to Lefferts then what serves the Culver line? Why run 2 lines on a line that doesn't need the service save money over a shuttle covering one branch? I doubt the person if he thinks that saves any money. Even if it did, it'd be minimal at best. And you unnecessarily affect the other lines to run such a service.

That's pretty much the entire reason why the results are those constant delays because of the way it was built but I'm not saying (nor going out of my way) to send all Lexington Avenue trains to Utica on the express and all Seventh Avenue trains to Flatbush and New Lots on the local..................

So then what are you trying to get at? I don't know how much clearer I can make that point. You stated Rogers Junction is an issue because of the merging. THere's nothing that can be done about it as people want the current service that is running.

[RollOver]

If you send the to Lefferts then what serves the Culver line?

 

The using full-length trains of R68s or R68As............................................................. <_<

 

So then what are you trying to get at?

 

I was just pointing out a fact of what the Nostrand Avenue junction does, that's all and nothing more.............................