Less Seats for Subway Riders? A study by NYCT researchers seems to think so.

[R188 7857]

LOL.... Is that such a bad thing???

It costs 6 dollars to ride the express bus and 2.50 to ride the train. It would also increase crowding on the express buses.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It costs 6 dollars to ride the express bus and 2.50 to ride the train. It would also increase crowding on the express buses.

Yeah but even so you're not going to have tons of people switching to the express bus because of the cost.  The express bus is almost triple that of the subway minus another $1.50.

[bobtehpanda]

Really. Didn't the Standards have the most seating capacity of all the cars? Didn't everyone love those cars? They didn't have narrow aisles to impede flow. Maybe we should consider returning to a similar design instead of focusing on increasing car capacity.

 

 

 

And since when do you speak for all riders? It has been my experience that everyone wants a seat. Of course, as you state that is not possible, but that doesn't mean we should provide fewer seats either. From what I've seen, the only people who don't care if they have to stand are those traveling only one or two short stops, and that's a small minority of the passengers. Virtually everyone would prefer not to stand for more than five minutes. Unfortunately, most don't have a choice.

 

The other times, someone will prefer to stand when seats are available, is when only a small space is available and they don't want to squeeze in or ask someone to move over. To prove how much passengers desire seats, when you were allowed to walk between cars, many would walk through half a train until they found a seat.

 

 

I'm curious. Do you think if fewer seats are available, additional trains will be scheduled during the off-peak or they will just change the guidelines to allow for more standees?

 

 

You are making a fallacious assumption, that ridership has been going up during the peak periods. I doubt that has been happening because trains were already at peak capacity during rush hours. Most of the increase in ridership has probably been occurring during the shoulders and off-peak periods where additional track capacity is available and more trains could operate. Therefore I think it does make sense to add more seats to cars operating on the less crowded lines.

 

The trains with the fewest seats should operate only on the heaviest lines. But I see no reason to reduce the current number of seats. Yes long distance riders have a greater chance of getting a seat before they get off, but fewer seats mean they will have to stand longer before getting a seat. You don't want to make the trains less comfortable so that some start switching to express bus.

 

I wouldn't think that it's silly to suggest that peak ridership has been going up - the trains are more crowded than I've remembered them being, and several times this year I've had several full trains pass by me during the morning rush. Not to mention, the only thing really constraining subway ridership would be if the trains AND the platforms are full - there are more people waiting on platforms these days.

 

It's also silly to assume that demand for rush hour service will remain constant - with all the rezonings and developments in Midtown and Hudson Yards, peak travel demand can only go up. New York firms aren't particularly flexible about time - most people have to be in at 7 or 8, and most get off work from 4-6. If you don't think the lines can carry any more people, just look at the Lexington Avenue line.

 

Besides, if riders from Jamaica can stand all the way to Downtown on the (and mind you, most of these people transferred from buses), then I see no reason why other people wouldn't be capable of the same feat. Standing is not as bad as people make it out to be.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I wouldn't think that it's silly to suggest that peak ridership has been going up - the trains are more crowded than I've remembered them being, and several times this year I've had several full trains pass by me during the morning rush. Not to mention, the only thing really constraining subway ridership would be if the trains AND the platforms are full - there are more people waiting on platforms these days.

 

It's also silly to assume that demand for rush hour service will remain constant - with all the rezonings and developments in Midtown and Hudson Yards, peak travel demand can only go up. New York firms aren't particularly flexible about time - most people have to be in at 7 or 8, and most get off work from 4-6. If you don't think the lines can carry any more people, just look at the Lexington Avenue line.

 

Besides, if riders from Jamaica can stand all the way to Downtown on the (and mind you, most of these people transferred from buses), then I see no reason why other people wouldn't be capable of the same feat. Standing is not as bad as people make it out to be.

Speak for yourself... You're young and haven't been doing the grind yet. 

[B35 via Church]

The problem is that, except along the sides of the car, a seated passenger (including seat) takes up a lot more space than a standing passenger, and narrow aisles impede passenger flow. While it would be nice if every subway rider could get a seat, it's simply not realistic, and if you tried to maximize seating capacity, you'd reduce total capacity (seating plus standing) so much that a lot of people simply wouldn't fit onto the train at all.

You're basically reiterating the general argument/stance to me... I understand it, I just don't necessarily side with it....

 

What you say about the reduction of total capacity w/ more seating, I've read from ppl. having brought that up before....

Not necessarily to you, but the question I have is to that is - How many more riders are lost out on with each increment in seating......

 

With (me) stating that the focus should be on seating more pax, I'm not suggesting that every subway rider gets a seat (which of course is not possible).... Yes, you're gonna have standees.... My problem though is the trying to maximize the number of standees before increased service is (ever) considered.... Hardly anyone, if anyone, ever comes out with any fancy schematic diagram or some sort of textualized idea that involves any increasing of seating (notice I didn't say maximized seating within that statement).... As of late, there's simply too much talk about accomodating for more standees instead of seated passengers.... It's all about squeezing as much as can be out of a dollar....

 

....To prove how much passengers desire seats, when you were allowed to walk between cars, many would walk through half a train until they found a seat.

Hell, even with the rule in place, people still walk through cars to try to find seats.... Which is even more telling.

 

...Besides, if riders from Jamaica can stand all the way to Downtown on the (and mind you, most of these people transferred from buses), then I see no reason why other people wouldn't be capable of the same feat. Standing is not as bad as people make it out to be.

Does that mean they prefer it though, is the question.....

 

Speak for yourself... You're young and haven't been doing the grind yet. 

Thank you.

[LTA1992]

Age has nothing to do with it. You can be a 105 and have the strongest legs ever.

[B35 via Church]

Age has nothing to do with it. You can be a 105 and have the strongest legs ever.

Sure, and you can be young & have brittle bones too.....

 

Exception doesn't swallow the rule.

[itmaybeokay]

Wait, all the proposed seating arrangements have the same 44 seats the R160's have... They aren't proposing less seats, just more effective use of space...

[trainfan22]

The new subway cars fit a lot less people.  It's often standing room at midnight from Union Square all the way to Brooklyn on the Q train if you're not one of the lucky few to get a seat at Times Square or 34th St. 

The was like that when they still had R68's on the line....

 

I don't think the subway cars themselves are the issue here.

[LTA1992]

Sure, and you can be young & have brittle bones too.....

 

Exception doesn't swallow the rule.

Still not the majority though. If someone elderly or something needs a seat, there are those who will give one up.

[Minato ku]

What about priority seats for older and disabled people? 

[B35 via Church]

Still not the majority though. If someone elderly or something needs a seat, there are those who will give one up.

That's exactly my point!

 

The majority of 105 year olds don't have strong legs either.... That's why I brought up young people with brittle bones...

That's why I said the exception doesn't swallow the rule, as neither case is the majority....

 

You originally said age has nothing to do with it & brought up the example that you did...

By now telling me what I'm saying isn't the majority, you're going against your own point.....

 

In other words, age does have a little something to do with it..... People wouldn't be as willing to give up their seats for older folks if it weren't the case.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sure, and you can be young & have brittle bones too.....

 

Exception doesn't swallow the rule.

lol... Sure is true... I never sit on the subway but if I have stuff with me along with a laptop bag or a briefcase my back can start to bother me if I have to go far, so I can imagine someone who is older.  Then there's all of the walking and schlepping you do with the stairs in and out of the train station and the general walking throughout the day.  Combine that with a rigorous 8+ hour work day and most folks are clamoring for a seat regardless of age.

[LTA1992]

That's exactly my point!

 

The majority of 105 year olds don't have strong legs either.... That's why I brought up young people with brittle bones...

That's why I said the exception doesn't swallow the rule, as neither case is the majority....

 

You originally said age has nothing to do with it & brought up the example that you did...

By now telling me what I'm saying isn't the majority, you're going against your own point.....

 

In other words, age does have a little something to do with it..... People wouldn't be as willing to give up their seats for older folks if it weren't the case.....

Most 105 year olds are on Okinawa Japan lol still hard working and able bodied.

 

And most people aren't willing to give up their seats at all. Including me. Now if you ask me, then I will.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Most 105 year olds are on Okinawa Japan lol still hard working and able bodied.

 

And most people aren't willing to give up their seats at all. Including me. Now if you ask me, then I will.

Gimme that seat!!! 

[B35 via Church]

lol... Sure is true... I never sit on the subway but if I have stuff with me along with a laptop bag or a briefcase my back can start to bother me if I have to go far, so I can imagine someone who is older.  Then there's all of the walking and schlepping you do with the stairs in and out of the train station and the general walking throughout the day.  Combine that with a rigorous 8+ hour work day and most folks are clamoring for a seat regardless of age.

Exactly... it all adds up.

 

Most 105 year olds are on Okinawa Japan lol still hard working and able bodied.

 

And most people aren't willing to give up their seats at all. Including me. Now if you ask me, then I will.

Well, hey, that's good for the 105 year olds in Okinawa, Japan....

 

Secondly, I'm not remotely saying most people are willing to give up their seat.... I'm saying, there wouldn't be much of a reason for those that are willing enough to give up their seat to the elderly if age wasn't a factor.... Two totally different things.... The only time I see people giving up their seat if not for the elderly, is either for the (visibly) handicapped or for small children....

 

My stance in this thread/discussion is that people majorically want to sit over having to stand....

You making the point about age not being a factor (and bringing up the example you did) is a point that supports standing over sitting....

[Minato ku]

Obviously almost every people want to sit but is that possible?

In the case of an intercity or unfrequent suburban train, yes but not in the case of a busy subway system with tight shedules.

On the opposite, too much seating capacity in trains may prevent the effectiveness of the system and produce the opposite of what is wanted. I means an overall reduction of the seating capacity of the line.

 

I don't know how it is for New York City but in many transit systems, there are priority seats reserved to older,  to disabled and some other groups of people.

 

[Roadcruiser1]

Obviously almost every people want to sit but is that possible?

In the case of an intercity or unfrequent suburban train, yes but not in the case of a busy subway system with tight shedules.

On the opposite, too much seating capacity in trains may prevent the effectiveness of the system and produce the opposite of what is wanted. I means an overall reduction of the seating capacity of the line.

 

I don't know how it is for New York City but in many transit systems, there are priority seats reserved to older,  to disabled and some other groups of people.

 

The New York City Subway has them too. It's located at the ends of every car.

[CenSin]

Obviously almost every people want to sit but is that possible?

I don't want to sit, but that actually has to do with the unsanitary state of the seats. If they were clean and there was a partition to keep the flesh of the fat person next to me from spilling over, I'd grab the seat in a heartbeat. For now, I always stand and never hold the poles or rails.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't want to sit, but that actually has to do with the unsanitary state of the seats. If they were clean and there was a partition to keep the flesh of the fat person next to me from spilling over, I'd grab the seat in a heartbeat. For now, I always stand and never hold the poles or rails.

Too funny... I do hold on to the rails only because I don't want to go flying anywhere but I immediately wash my hands whenever I can get somewhere that's clean with hot water and soap, but I never sit down. People look sometimes like there's no seats available and then they realize I'm just standing because I don't want to sit down but I'm sorry there are just too many bums and nasty people using the subways to even consider sitting down.  There was a bum on the train the other night and you could smell her from across the car.  She took up a three seater and sat there sleeping the entire time and some guy actually had the nerve to sit right there in the two seater as if he didn't smell her stench. I said to myself this guy is crazy.  Better him than me.

[B35 via Church]

While unexpected, Lol @ the germaphobe angle.... 

So I take it that you two (VG8 & CenSin) are the type to wear a mask around your nose & mouth when you board the subway also?

[Minato ku]

I also avoid to sit down and to touch the poles in Paris metro. 

 

Usually I lean against the doors or the articulations. In Paris subway, doors open usually on the same side at every station, so there is no problem to do it here.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While unexpected, Lol @ the germaphobe angle.... 

So I take it that you two (VG8 & CenSin) are the type to wear a mask around your nose & mouth when you board the subway also?

Well I don't go that far but I really try to avoid touching anything unless I have to.  No touching the escalator and I don't even use the elevators since those are usually used for you know what... I mean you know they don't clean those subway cars but every once in a blue moon so God knows what those cars have in them.  I still chuckle when the tried to defuse that report about the amount of germs being in the subway cars years ago.  I also do anything to avoid taking crowded trains.  I do not want people all on top of me and breathing on me and all of that. I don't even like people standing next to me. Go stand somewhere else and I usually give them a look to clearly communicate my message or I'll just move elsewhere depending on how crowded the train is.

[BrooklynBus]

It costs 6 dollars to ride the express bus and 2.50 to ride the train. It would also increase crowding on the express buses.

Yes and it costs the MTA much more per ride for the express bus. That's why it would be bad if too many switched. But in reality because if the price differential, the only ones who might switch are those on the fringe who were thinking about the express bus before. Standing longer might just push them over the edge to switch.

 

Gimme that seat!!!

When I was about 15, I was riding the bus and was very tired. Ths middle aged lady only in her fifties gets on, not even very old. She walks half way down the bus, checks everyone out and positions herself right in front of me and loudly proclaims to everyone "just look at all the selfish young people here who won't give up their seat", looking right at me. Now she could have politely asked, but chose not to. Just because of her attitude, and because I was very tired, I still did not get up. Everyone stared at me like I was the worst person on earth, but they didn't give up their seat either for her. I'm still glad she had to stand. Even young people can be tired and need to sit. I still think she was just a mean selfish person.

[ttcsubwayfan]

When I was about 15, I was riding the bus and was very tired. Ths middle aged lady only in her fifties gets on, not even very old. She walks half way down the bus, checks everyone out and positions herself right in front of me and loudly proclaims to everyone "just look at all the selfish young people here who won't give up their seat", looking right at me. Now she could have politely asked, but chose not to. Just because of her attitude, and because I was very tired, I still did not get up. Everyone stared at me like I was the worst person on earth, but they didn't give up their seat either for her. I'm still glad she had to stand. Even young people can be tired and need to sit. I still think she was just a mean selfish person.

 

It totally agree. I have heard of old people battling young people for seats. Chances are if they do that they don't need the bloody seat in the first place.

 

I'd be happy to give up my seat for an old person if they are politely (and they don't even have to ask), but if they give me attitude I keep that seat. LOL, and old people complain about how young people never show them any respect...