Montague St Tunnel Closure - Exp. Bus Service Restorations & Increases Requested

[Via Garibaldi 8]

did anyone of you read this one?

http://www.ny1.com/content/transit/184058/councilman-calls-for-ferry-service-to-help-brooklyn-commuters-when-r-train-tunnel-closes

Yeah it's being floated around in Bay Ridge and I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed to keep it if they get it.  They would argue that Bay Ridge has suffered for years from terrible subway service and that the ferry would provide residents with faster and reliable alternatives.  I have to say, the politicians down there certainly do fight for their constituents.  

[Culver]

Yeah it's being floated around in Bay Ridge and I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed to keep it if they get it.  They would argue that Bay Ridge has suffered for years from terrible subway service and that the ferry would provide residents with faster and reliable alternatives.  I have to say, the politicians down there certainly do fight for their constituents.  

What you call "fighting" those of us in the real world call hilarious pandering. You're only enabling moron politicians. Yes, transferring to any one of fifty thousand alternatives into Manhattan at Atlantic, DeKalb or Jay will truly be the end of Bay Ridge. Houses burned to the ground, stores looted, and total anarchy will encapsulate the area.

[RtrainBlues]

Most Bay Ridge riders don't want to pay the expense for an express bus, so they won't pay the expense for a similarly-priced ferry.  Also, the ferry would stop at an out-of-the-way location, near 59th & 1st Ave or 69th & Shore Road, which is roughly a mile from the nearest R train stop.  I just don't see people walking up to 2 miles to the ferry each day. 

 

Riders are remembering severe overcrowding that occurred with 10 minute rush-hour shuttle headways, which won't be nearly as bad with 7.5 minute rush-hour shuttle headways starting in August.  With the lengthy rush-hour R train delays I often endure, 7.5 minute headways will be a major service improvement.  Although it may take a couple of extra minutes vs an Atlantic Ave transfer, riders can instead transfer at Jay St (A, C) or Court St (2, 3, 4, 5) if they would prefer to avoid the large crowds at Atlantic Ave and keep their seat to Court St.  It's not the end of the world to have a 5 minute ride from Court St to Wall St/Fulton St, with an IRT train that comes every 2 minutes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What you call "fighting" those of us in the real world call hilarious pandering. You're only enabling moron politicians. Yes, transferring to any one of fifty thousand alternatives into Manhattan at Atlantic, DeKalb or Jay will truly be the end of Bay Ridge. Houses burned to the ground, stores looted, and total anarchy will encapsulate the area.

Whatever you want to call it they get results which at the end of the day is all that matters and the communities know what they need for their communities and they have every right to demand what they think they need.  It's the politicians' jobs to represent their needs.

 

If it was up to you no one would have anything because anytime they ask for any sort of service, they're automatically complaining.

[checkmatechamp13]

To me the toll is expensive, no matter the current variation in rates or how it's collected. Anyway, I'd prefer public transit if I was in that scenario. 

 

I'd prefer public transit to get to Manhattan as well, but not necessarily because of the $6 toll. It's because you're paying $6, plus gas, plus wear-and-tear, plus parking, etc.

 

Not to mention you don't necessarily know if those people are using it to get to Manhattan. Most of them probably aren't. 

 

I'm not talking about what most people have. I specifically talked about those who DON'T have EZ-Pass and are NOT Staten Island residents. What part of that isn't clear?

 

-Which still has nothing to do with what I was talking about which was people visiting family on Staten Island.... 

 

-Who ever said that it did?? All I stated was what it carried annually.  The X1 carries over a million passengers and I've been X1's with light loads. Ridership fluctuates and on some lines more than others.  What is so shocking about that that you need to make that point? It's true with all buses, not just express buses.

 

You said "they've got to pay $15.00 unless they have an EZPass". That implies that the people who have an EZ Pass are in the minority, which is not the case. (It doesn't matter whether they're SI residents, because just by using EZ Pass, you're not paying the full $15).

 

This is the same guy who talks about "Oh, most people use unlimiteds anyway, so they should raise the PPR fare". 

 

As for people visiting family, my point is that people have to visit family in other boroughs too. Why should people going between Brooklyn & SI get a break while people going between Queens & The Bronx don't?

 

And I'm saying that just because ridership is high on weekdays doesn't mean it would be high on the weekends if it ran. That's my point. It may not be as low as two people per bus, but on average, it wouldn't be super-high either.

 

That's not my point. You will notice that food prices in most Staten Island supermarkets are generally higher... The tolls have a part in that.

 

Not really. The prices at Stop & Shop over here are roughly comparable to the prices in Brooklyn or NJ. If anything, they're a little lower over here (for instance, something will be $1.99 here, but be 2/$5 in Brooklyn or NJ).

 

With ShopRite, the prices are roughly comparable to the ones in NJ, and the prices in Brooklyn are slightly higher. (Their headquarters are in NJ, just over the Goethals). But again, it's a relatively small difference. Instead of paying $1.99 for something, people in Brooklyn might pay $2.19, or $2.49 tops (and in many cases, the price is the same as the NJ & SI prices). Not to mention that the extra gas plays a role in that too. 

 

The round-trip EZ Pass toll for a 5-axle tractor-trailer is $52.52. But considering the hundreds of pounds of food each truck carries, plus all the costs involved in transporting the food already, the impact of the toll is minimal. 

[Turbo19]

I'd prefer public transit to get to Manhattan as well, but not necessarily because of the $6 toll. It's because you're paying $6, plus gas, plus wear-and-tear, plus parking, etc.

 

Not to mention you don't necessarily know if those people are using it to get to Manhattan. Most of them probably aren't. 

The way you phrased has already made it such a pain in my mind. It's just too much of a hassle.

[Culver]

Whatever you want to call it they get results which at the end of the day is all that matters and the communities know what they need for their communities and they have every right to demand what they think they need.  It's the politicians' jobs to represent their needs.

 

If it was up to you no one would have anything because anytime they ask for any sort of service, they're automatically complaining.

There's legitimate concerns and then there's "well the will require a transfer now, so we need ferries, reduced fare express buses, and much, much more express bus service to compensate." That's a joke of an argument. It enables complete imbeciles like the one on Staten Island who threw a shitfit over some damn blue flashing lights because *one* person in his district confused a bus with an emergency vehicle. Please don't call wasting people's time and money on bullshit "fighting" for constituents. It's pathetic pandering that only pleases people who have nothing better to do with their lives than be outraged at everything. They might need to increase 27/28 service (but not really, since one can transfer from the R to about three hundred million services into Manhattan in downtown Brooklyn).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There's legitimate concerns and then there's "well the will require a transfer now, so we need ferries, reduced fare express buses, and much, much more express bus service to compensate." That's a joke of an argument. It enables complete imbeciles like the one on Staten Island who threw a shitfit over some damn blue flashing lights because *one* person in his district confused a bus with an emergency vehicle. Please don't call wasting people's time and money on bullshit "fighting" for constituents. It's pathetic pandering that only pleases people who have nothing better to do with their lives than be outraged at everything. They might need to increase 27/28 service (but not really, since one can transfer from the R to about three hundred million services into Manhattan in downtown Brooklyn).

Before this whole fiasco started a push was building to demand better service on the because it's been horrendous for years now.  It's not the residents' fault the needs to do this work and they should not be subjected to a gazillion transfers just to complete their daily commutes.  None of the proposed services are "luxuries".  These people rely on public transportation to get to and from work to put food on the table for their families, doctor's appointments and other important vital necessities and these services would facilitate those needs.  You've somehow come to the conclusion that what works for you MUST work for everyone else because if you can make a gazillion transfers and spend 1 hr + commuting each way making those transfers, then so can everyone else. I beg to differ and we're going to continue to fight for those services.

 

If we had people like you running the , we'd still be back in the 70's with rundown trains and stations because the "status quo" is just fine.  

[Culver]

Before this whole fiasco started a push was building to demand better service on the because it's been horrendous for years now.  It's not the residents' fault the needs to do this work and they should not be subjected to a gazillion transfers just to complete their daily commutes.  None of the proposed services are "luxuries".  These people rely on public transportation to get to and from work to put food on the table for their families, doctor's appointments and other important vital necessities and these services would facilitate those needs.  You've somehow come to the conclusion that what works for you MUST work for everyone else because if you can make a gazillion transfers and spend 1 hr + commuting each way making those transfers, then so can everyone else. I beg to differ and we're going to continue to fight for those services.

 

If we had people like you running the , we'd still be back in the 70's with rundown trains and stations because the "status quo" is just fine.  

I take the for work. It's a train. It runs. If it ran any more it would run empty trains. This isn't about status quo, it's about not wasting money. When people stop bitching about fares and Albany stops stealing money (they still owe the MTA a couple hundred million for the past decade and a half), then we can talk about running empty trains every three minutes. BTW, there's also the slight issue of N/Q/R merging north of 57 St in Manhattan. You can only squeeze in so many trains at a point. I also don't understand what part of "it costs money to run trains and express buses" is not understood. Yes, it would be nice if the X27 and X28 ran at all times with great headways, but that costs money. Money that nobody wants to pay. As is, what will be is one extra transfer for people on the is not an issue that requires much, if anything to supplement service.

[ttcsubwayfan]

None of the proposed services are "luxuries". 

 

What, a decreased express bus fare isn't a luxury? I can't comment on the rest of the proposals, seeing as I don't live here, but why the decreased fares? You want the service, you pay the full goddamn fare like everyone else.

[Turbo19]

What, a decreased express bus fare isn't a luxury? I can't comment on the rest of the proposals, seeing as I don't live here, but why the decreased fares? You want the service, you pay the full goddamn fare like everyone else.

Let me fill you in on this before the dude (Via) rips you a new one.

 

In his defense he has previously stated that he would prefer the regular fare to stay, as evidenced in this very thread in this specific post. The fare discussion continues for a while after that.

 

Now, I personally would prefer the fare decrease to capture more riders per run, but that's my opinion rather than his.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What, a decreased express bus fare isn't a luxury? I can't comment on the rest of the proposals, seeing as I don't live here, but why the decreased fares? You want the service, you pay the full goddamn fare like everyone else.

I never said I agreed with decreased fares. In fact I stated earlier that I don't support that part of the proposal, BUT I do support more express bus service.

 

I take the for work. It's a train. It runs. If it ran any more it would run empty trains. This isn't about status quo, it's about not wasting money. When people stop bitching about fares and Albany stops stealing money (they still owe the MTA a couple hundred million for the past decade and a half), then we can talk about running empty trains every three minutes. BTW, there's also the slight issue of N/Q/R merging north of 57 St in Manhattan. You can only squeeze in so many trains at a point. I also don't understand what part of "it costs money to run trains and express buses" is not understood. Yes, it would be nice if the X27 and X28 ran at all times with great headways, but that costs money. Money that nobody wants to pay. As is, what will be is one extra transfer for people on the is not an issue that requires much, if anything to supplement service.

The only "increase" that I want to see is the X28 weekend service restored, which was a service that existed previously.  Let's not act as if they're asking for express buses every 3 minutes because you know that is utter BS. Again you come up with the well the is good for me so it MUST work for everyone else because as long as it works for MY commute then that's what matters.  Typical self-centered behavior.  If they can't do any better than an train every 15 - 20 minutes at night then that's pretty pathetic, because that's usually how long I would wait after taking the to 59th street and taking the to Bay Ridge.  10 minute headways is not exactly unreasonable and while the schedule may say 10 minutes, the comes when it wants so maybe if it held to the schedule better, people would complain less.

 

To compensate for the however I would go a bit further.  I would add one more X28 to Coney Island at night to run until 00:30 just like the X27 does. During the weekends, I would have two more X27's run to Bay Ridge on Saturday (hourly service), which would provide service until 00:00 roughly and add two more buses on Sundays as well, which would provide service until 23:30 or so.  The same service would be provided for the X28 on weekends with hourly service during the lighter periods.  That is certainly not going crazy with express bus service.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Let me fill you in on this before the dude (Via) rips you a new one.

 

In his defense he has previously stated that he would prefer the regular fare to stay, as evidenced in this very thread in this specific post. The fare discussion continues for a while after that.

 

 

I never said I agreed with decreased fares. In fact I stated earlier that I don't support that part of the proposal, BUT I do support more express bus service.

 

Fair enough. I have no further comments on the issue, carry on.

[Gorgor]

Just saying, I haven't heard anything about the neighborhoods around 53 St, 45 St, 25 St, or Union St complaining about having to make such a dreadful transfer to get to their final destination. 

 

And it's funny to see how attitudes change.  Before the X27 was necessary because it was not an alternative to the train, but served a completely different section of Bay Ridge.  I forget if this was you Via or someone else, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but someone else compared the X27 and to the X90 and the , that they run parallel but are far away from each other.  The only real alternative I would say would be the X27 helping those at Bay Ridge Av station.

 

Here are the so-called express bus alternatives:

Bay Ridge Av - 4 Av/Senator St X27 ... 0.1 miles away

77th St - Shore Rd/Bay Ridge Parkway X27 ... 0.7 miles away -- no way is the express bus an alternative here

86th St - 86 St/7 Av X28 ... 0.5 miles away

95th St - Shore Rd/4 Av X27 ... 0.4 miles away

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just saying, I haven't heard anything about the neighborhoods around 53 St, 45 St, 25 St, or Union St complaining about having to make such a dreadful transfer to get to their final destination. 

 

And it's funny to see how attitudes change.  Before the X27 was necessary because it was not an alternative to the train, but served a completely different section of Bay Ridge.  I forget if this was you Via or someone else, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but someone else compared the X27 and to the X90 and the , that they run parallel but are far away from each other.  The only real alternative I would say would be the X27 helping those at Bay Ridge Av station.

 

Here are the so-called express bus alternatives:

Bay Ridge Av - 4 Av/Senator St X27 ... 0.1 miles away

77th St - Shore Rd/Bay Ridge Parkway X27 ... 0.7 miles away -- no way is the express bus an alternative here

86th St - 86 St/7 Av X28 ... 0.5 miles away

95th St - Shore Rd/4 Av X27 ... 0.4 miles away

People would drive to Shore Rd for the express bus... It still would be quicker than the .  If anything you just proved why the X27 is needed for someone in the Shore Rd area.  As you can see the is not that much of an alternative unless they're driving over there which is common.  The X27 goes all the way to the end of Bay Ridge PAST 95th. It goes to 99th, turns on 3rd Avenue down to Marine Avenue and then come back around to Shore Rd using 4th Avenue and starts the run by 4th Avenue and Shore Rd.  

 

This is where the X28 would come into play because it isn't just the X27 that is in play here for Bay Ridge riders. Those at 86th could either drive to 86th and 7th or take the B1.  86th and 7th is the last stop on the X28 before heading straight to Downtown with no stops, so the short bus ride on the B1 would be off set by a quick trip via the X28 Downtown.

 

For the 77th street stop, one could simply catch the B4 to Narrows and 77th.  Get off at Narrows as I do and walk to Shore Rd and 78th.  It's a 5 minute ride tops with a short walk to Shore Rd. From there they would have maybe a 20 minute ride into Downtown, which still be much quicker than the .

 

Sunset Park riders have much easier commutes since they can simply walk to 59th or 36th for the or  for most of the stops you've mentioned, so they're not exactly stuck with the .

[checkmatechamp13]

People would drive to Shore Rd for the express bus... It still would be quicker than the .  If anything you just proved why the X27 is needed for someone in the Shore Rd area.  As you can see the is not that much of an alternative unless they're driving over there which is common.  The X27 goes all the way to the end of Bay Ridge PAST 95th. It goes to 99th, turns on 3rd Avenue down to Marine Avenue and then come back around to Shore Rd using 4th Avenue and starts the run by 4th Avenue and Shore Rd.  

 

This is where the X28 would come into play because it isn't just the X27 that is in play here for Bay Ridge riders. Those at 86th could either drive to 86th and 7th or take the B1.  86th and 7th is the last stop on the X28 before heading straight to Downtown with no stops, so the short bus ride on the B1 would be off set by a quick trip via the X28 Downtown.

 

For the 77th street stop, one could simply catch the B4 to Narrows and 77th.  Get off at Narrows as I do and walk to Shore Rd and 78th.  It's a 5 minute ride tops with a short walk to Shore Rd. From there they would have maybe a 20 minute ride into Downtown, which still be much quicker than the .

 

Yeah, wait for the infrequent B4 to backtrack and transfer to the X27 is going to be loads quicker than taking the and transferring further down the line (which is what many riders already do).

 

The X17 already covers the 86th Street stop as far as riders are concerned. (And of course, the X28 runs during the week)

 

He proved the X27 was needed for Shore Road riders, not train riders over by 4th Avenue (of course, those who are closer to the X27 who used to take the bus to the subway would be able to use it, but those who live closer to 4th Avenue would have to backtrack to catch the X27).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah, wait for the infrequent B4 to backtrack and transfer to the X27 is going to be loads quicker than taking the and transferring further down the line (which is what many riders already do).

 

The X17 already covers the 86th Street stop as far as riders are concerned. (And of course, the X28 runs during the week)

 

He proved the X27 was needed for Shore Road riders, not train riders over by 4th Avenue (of course, those who are closer to the X27 who used to take the bus to the subway would be able to use it, but those who live closer to 4th Avenue would have to backtrack to catch the X27).

The B4 is very reliable now that Jackie Gleason took over.  If one simply times the bus, there is no problem.  It's a short 5 minute ride TOPS at 77th and 4th over to Narrows and 78th.  From there if you time yourself to catch an X27 you can certainly make it Downtown much faster than the , which is anything but reliable, so this backtracking that you keep talking about is really not that big of a deal.  In fact the B4 is advertised as a transfer to and from the X27 on the X27 schedule, so surely people use that set up.

[Gorgor]

People would drive to Shore Rd for the express bus... It still would be quicker than the .  If anything you just proved why the X27 is needed for someone in the Shore Rd area.  As you can see the is not that much of an alternative unless they're driving over there which is common.  The X27 goes all the way to the end of Bay Ridge PAST 95th. It goes to 99th, turns on 3rd Avenue down to Marine Avenue and then come back around to Shore Rd using 4th Avenue and starts the run by 4th Avenue and Shore Rd.  

 

This is where the X28 would come into play because it isn't just the X27 that is in play here for Bay Ridge riders. Those at 86th could either drive to 86th and 7th or take the B1.  86th and 7th is the last stop on the X28 before heading straight to Downtown with no stops, so the short bus ride on the B1 would be off set by a quick trip via the X28 Downtown.

 

For the 77th street stop, one could simply catch the B4 to Narrows and 77th.  Get off at Narrows as I do and walk to Shore Rd and 78th.  It's a 5 minute ride tops with a short walk to Shore Rd. From there they would have maybe a 20 minute ride into Downtown, which still be much quicker than the .

 

Sunset Park riders have much easier commutes since they can simply walk to 59th or 36th for the or  for most of the stops you've mentioned, so they're not exactly stuck with the .

 

I also forgot.  When the X28 is not running then the X17 bus provides an alternate at roughly the same location, so Bay Ridge riders can use the X28 weekdays and X17 weekends, hence no need for X28 weekend service as a direct supplement for the outage.

 

And now suddenly everyone has a car?  I doubt that every train rider does, and even if they do there's definitely nowhere near enough parking spaces for the thousands of people who you claim will be taking the express bus rather than make a 2 minute transfer. 

 

Sunset park riders can just walk to 59th or 36th?  What about the elderly or those that can't walk, that's up to a half mile walk.  If 59th/36th is the answer then why can't people with cars just drive to 59th Street ??? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I also forgot.  When the X28 is not running then the X17 bus provides an alternate at roughly the same location, so Bay Ridge riders can use the X28 weekdays and X17 weekends, hence no need for X28 weekend service as a direct supplement for the outage.

 

And now suddenly everyone has a car?  I doubt that every train rider does, and even if they do there's definitely nowhere near enough parking spaces for the thousands of people who you claim will be taking the express bus rather than make a 2 minute transfer. 

 

Sunset park riders can just walk to 59th or 36th?  What about the elderly or those that can't walk, that's up to a half mile walk.  If 59th/36th is the answer then why can't people with cars just drive to 59th Street ??? 

I never said everyone has a car, but plenty of riders in Bay Ridge do.  The X17 serves one stop.  I think you're getting confused.  There are two things going on.  Riders in Dyker Heights want the X28 restored on weekends so that those that don't live by 86th and 7th don't have to schlep to that stop for the bus, particularly the elderly and disabled who tend to ride a lot on weekends.  

 

Those east of Dyker Heights also want the X28 restored on weekends because the is often out on weekends, so there's the train issue and the overall consensus that the X28 is needed in general and the situation just exacerbates a problem where residents have unreliable and or limited options with the subway.  As a matter of fact, there are areas of the Bronx that make that same argument.  The BxM11 is needed because the and are always out and run poorly. 

[Gorgor]

I never said everyone has a car, but plenty of riders in Bay Ridge do.  The X17 serves one stop.  I think you're getting confused.  There are two things going on.  Riders in Dyker Heights want the X28 restored on weekends so that those that don't live by 86th and 7th don't have to schlep to that stop for the bus, particularly the elderly and disabled who tend to ride a lot on weekends.  

 

Those east of Dyker Heights also want the X28 restored on weekends because the is often out on weekends, so there's the train issue and the overall consensus that the X28 is needed in general and the situation just exacerbates a problem where residents have unreliable and or limited options with the subway.  As a matter of fact, there are areas of the Bronx that make that same argument.  The BxM11 is needed because the and are always out and run poorly. 

 

I made it very clear to say that X28 weekend service would not help those displaced by the train because the nearest X28 stop is served by the X17 on weekends.  In fact, the X17/X28 is closer to those east of the stop that would have otherwise walked or taken another bus to the train.  I know why people want the X28 restored on weekends, but that's not connected with this.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I made it very clear to say that X28 weekend service would not help those displaced by the train because the nearest X28 stop is served by the X17 on weekends.  In fact, the X17/X28 is closer to those east of the stop that would have otherwise walked or taken another bus to the train.  I know why people want the X28 restored on weekends, but that's not connected with this.

My point is that the overall argument is that Southwest Brooklyn has limited options and that's another reason why the X28 should be restored. The train would be an example.  The X17 was never supposed to be a permanent situation, but a temporary one mainly due to budget constraints. Now that the has additional funding it would make sense to restore the X28.  This is the community's thinking.

[Gorgor]

My point is that the overall argument is that Southwest Brooklyn has limited options and that's another reason why the X28 should be restored. The train would be an example.  The X17 was never supposed to be a permanent situation, but a temporary one mainly due to budget constraints. Now that the has additional funding it would make sense to restore the X28.  This is the community's thinking.

 

This discussion is about the train, not restoring the X28.

 

For people who currently take the train, the nearest alternative to the 86th Street station is 86th St/7 Av where they can take the X28 on weekdays and X17 on weekends.  That means people who currently take the train to/from 86th Street have an express bus alternative to/from 86th St/7 Av all 7 days of the week.

 

Also keep in mind that almost all people would rather spend 2 minutes to transfer rather than pay an extra $3.50 each way.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This discussion is about the train, not restoring the X28.

 

For people who currently take the train, the nearest alternative to the 86th Street station is 86th St/7 Av where they can take the X28 on weekdays and X17 on weekends.  That means people who currently take the train to/from 86th Street have an express bus alternative to/from 86th St/7 Av all 7 days of the week.

 

Also keep in mind that almost all people would rather spend 2 minutes to transfer rather than pay an extra $3.50 each way.

Apparently you haven't read the title of the thread nor the original article.

[Culver]

Apparently you haven't read the title of the thread nor the original article.

The vast majority of people will take the transfer because, say it with me again, the offers transfers to every south Brooklyn train to Manhattan in downtown Brooklyn. The 2, 3, 4, 5, A, B, C, D, F, N and Q trains are all options to get people where they need to get in Manhattan. Majority will just transfer. Not the end of the world.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The vast majority of people will take the transfer because, say it with me again, the offers transfers to every south Brooklyn train to Manhattan in downtown Brooklyn. The 2, 3, 4, 5, A, B, C, D, F, N and Q trains are all options to get people where they need to get in Manhattan. Majority will just transfer. Not the end of the world.

Say it with me again... You don't speak for all people... Just because you think that's the best way doesn't make it so and those who want to opt for the express bus will do so.  The service should be there to ensure that there isn't overcrowding and can be adjusted as needed.