Montague St Tunnel Closure - Exp. Bus Service Restorations & Increases Requested

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Public transportation is heavily subsidized in some countries and for good reason: it's an economic driver.

 

That's how I think it should be seen.

 

Yes, I am sure there is "mismanagement", but to say that "mismanagement" is the cause of the shortfalls is extremely naive.

 

The bottom line is that the MTA isn't getting the money it needs from the state.

The bottom line is they don't know how to spend the money they do get.  If they had better oversight they could do more with less.

[AndrewJC]

-The express bus system serves a vital service for many neighborhoods where subway service is not suitable or needed.

 

-The 2010 service cuts were NOT permanent.  The goal has always been to restore as much service as possible.

 

-I missed my original express bus saw and X17 and got on, so it wasn't at all planned.  The X28 was always a backup for me and that's why it's vital to get it back because it makes getting to Southern Brooklyn MUCH quicker and convenient over the subway.  The X17 only serves those in Dyker Heights.

 

-The was the disadvantage because I was stuck once I got down to Bay Parkway.  Doubling back would've been pointless so I chose the local bus the rest of the way.  The real issue again was NO SHUTTLE BUS was running, which I've stated numerous times now.  I don't understand how they can knock out the subway with no shuttle buses.  Typical planning.  

 

-A lot of people cut through Staten Island from NJ.

 

-The money is there to restore more service from 2010 and every effort should be made to get the to stop trying to pretend like they're broke and restore the services that they stole from numerous communities with the ploy that they were broke.  They were broke but they wanted to get rid of certain routes a long time ago.  Being broke just allowed them to justify their decision but we can't allow them to make ridiculous excuses about why they can't restore vital services that numerous communities depended on.  We've got the B4 back, the X27 back, the B64 back, and the B2 back and we're going to continue to fight for South Brooklyn to get as much service as possible back.

 

-Re: Transit service to Manhattan: No need. I moved to Riverdale because of the good express bus service.  We use our service so and since there is no subway here the express bus is here to stay as much as I'm sure it pisses you.  Now we have the X27 back... Gotta keep fighting for the X28 and try to get later X27 service.

 

-Re train: Could've fooled me... Culver and FreshPond apparently don't take the subway enough because I've waited 20 minutes quite a few times for subways, like the for example.  With track work on weekends, it doesn't take much for a line to become screwed up.  

 

-Excuse me but the BxM1 and BxM2 run every 30 minutes most of Saturday, but between the two of them they run on roughly 15 minute headways WITH BusTime, so our express buses are pretty prompt.  My waits are usually no more than 5 minutes since I can time the buses accordingly.  

1. 1. An express bus carrying 7-9 people is clearly not vital to any neighborhood. It's a convenience, and possibly or possibly not a time-saver, for a very small number of people.

2. 2. You are simply incorrect about the 2010 cuts. They were instituted as permanent cuts. Many of them were restructurings that benefit some riders while hurting others - the most obvious example being the M train, which is far more useful to far more people on its new routing than it was on its old routing. As for the straight cuts, some of them should have been instituted (permanently) long before they were, while others were of fairly weak routes that still served useful roles. Routes that fall into that last category should be seriously considered for restoration in some fashion, if and when funding permits, but the others most certainly should not.

3. 3. You missed your original express bus? What express bus were you planning to take to Coney Island? And why would you get on an express bus that wasn't taking you anywhere near your destination? I'm sorry, your story doesn't make much sense.

4. 4. No, your mistake was taking the X17 in the first place, dumping you a mile and a half from the D train, rather than walking a block to the D or F. Even if you had started off on the D and ignored all of the signs and announcements about the GO, you would have still ended up at Bay Parkway much sooner. In the end, since you were on the B1, you could have stayed on the B1 to the F train. The MTA's service advisory clearly gave multiple options from Bay Parkway, including the B1 to the F and the B6 to the B64 - waiting for the B82 was just one of several options. Of course, you could have avoided it all by starting out on the F (or the Q one more block away, if you prefer).

5. 5. A lot of people deliberately avoid the Verrazano toll by only using the Verrazano to leave the island, entering through New Jersey instead. Not many people loop the other way around. The MTA loses money with the double westbound toll as opposed to a smaller toll in each direction, but they were forced into the current setup by 1980's Federal legislation.

6. 6. The MTA's funding sources, as defined by state law, are highly unstable. They bring in a lot when the economy is doing well and they bring in much less when the economy tanks. On top of that, in 2009, just as the effects of the weak economy were becoming quite apparent, the state legislature opted to take a big pile of dedicated tax revenue earmarked for the MTA and to steal it from the MTA, spending it elsewhere instead. Aside from raising fares and tolls, the MTA has very little say over its own funding. The MTA is also required by state law to have a balanced budget - so, when the MTA was faced with a massive gap between revenues and operating expenses, there was simply no choice but to cut service. If you'd like to assign blame, blame your state legislators who have the power to reform the MTA funding structure but haven't felt compelled to do anything, and adding insult to injury, voted to "divert" (aka steal) dedicated MTA funds elsewhere, exactly when the MTA could least afford the "diversion."

7. 7. Unless you want a bus line to run for one year and then stop, restoring bus service requires steady, annual funding, not a small one-time surplus. I am not a financial expert, and neither, it is quite obvious, are you. I will leave it to the financial experts to determine if the MTA can realistically expect an improved long-term financial outlook, or if the situation is likely to get worse in the next year or two. Until that determination is made, the MTA cannot commit to run a new or restored service year after year after year.

8. 8. If you're so happy to be living in Riverdale, why are you "fighting" for the X28? And, by the way, much as you repeatedly deny it, plenty of Riverdale residents take the Bx7/10/20 to the 1 train - there's a reason 231st has long been such a busy station.

9. 9. During the day on weekends, 20 minute waits for the F or for the A are very uncommon. That's not to say they never happen, but to run away from the F in the wrong direction on an express bus is just absurd.

10. 10. The BxM1 and BxM2 go to different places. If you're going to lump them together, then perhaps you should also lump together the D and F trains, which run on a combined headway of 5 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays - and both of which (normally) go to Coney Island.

 

On topic: Anyone know if there will still be 59 St. drop-outs on the when it runs split when the tunnel closes? I'm assuming it'll all just be Jay-95 St runs, but would like to know for sure.

 

Coney Island layups will probably still drop out at 59th, but I'm just guessing.

 

So what are politicians supposed to do, stand by and watch their communities lose their service? 

 

Fix the MTA's funding structure. The MTA is a creature of the state, and the state legislature has the power to make whatever changes it deems appropriate to the laws governing the MTA. If the state legislature wishes to seriously address the issues, I will gladly cheer them on. But yelling and screaming doesn't solve any problems.

 

They get a tax from the cabs, a tax from our cellphone (yes there's a surcharge on your cell phone bill that goes back to the ), the commuter tax and so on, so this isn't all about Albany and politicians pandering.  

 

The MTA does not have the power to impose taxes. The state collects several taxes earmarked for the MTA. Traditionally, those revenues were actually passed on to the MTA, but that tradition changed in 2009, with the "diversion" (theft) I mentioned above, and the new tradition of diverting has kept up ever since. If you don't like those taxes, then ask your elected officials to come up with better funding mechanisms. And if you don't like diversions of dedicated tax revenue, then tell your elected officials in no uncertain terms that you will not vote for any incumbent who supports diversions.

 

The commuter tax was repealed in 1999. Where have you been?

 

By the way - a good number of managers were laid off in 2010, and managers haven't seen raises in over five years. Contrary to your flippant assumptions, good management is critical, and a vast agency like New York City Transit needs a fairly large management to function. Certainly, it's always worth looking for savings in personnel, but we shouldn't ignore the unionized workforce, which is responsible for a much greater share of the MTA's expenses.

 

Culver and Trainmaster5: Excellent posts - you are 100% on target, and I have very little to add.

[Trainmaster5]

 

1. 1. An express bus carrying 7-9 people is clearly not vital to any neighborhood. It's a convenience, and possibly or possibly not a time-saver, for a very small number of people.

2. 2. You are simply incorrect about the 2010 cuts. They were instituted as permanent cuts. Many of them were restructurings that benefit some riders while hurting others - the most obvious example being the M train, which is far more useful to far more people on its new routing than it was on its old routing. As for the straight cuts, some of them should have been instituted (permanently) long before they were, while others were of fairly weak routes that still served useful roles. Routes that fall into that last category should be seriously considered for restoration in some fashion, if and when funding permits, but the others most certainly should not.

3. 3. You missed your original express bus? What express bus were you planning to take to Coney Island? And why would you get on an express bus that wasn't taking you anywhere near your destination? I'm sorry, your story doesn't make much sense.

4. 4. No, your mistake was taking the X17 in the first place, dumping you a mile and a half from the D train, rather than walking a block to the D or F. Even if you had started off on the D and ignored all of the signs and announcements about the GO, you would have still ended up at Bay Parkway much sooner. In the end, since you were on the B1, you could have stayed on the B1 to the F train. The MTA's service advisory clearly gave multiple options from Bay Parkway, including the B1 to the F and the B6 to the B64 - waiting for the B82 was just one of several options. Of course, you could have avoided it all by starting out on the F (or the Q one more block away, if you prefer).

5. 5. A lot of people deliberately avoid the Verrazano toll by only using the Verrazano to leave the island, entering through New Jersey instead. Not many people loop the other way around. The MTA loses money with the double westbound toll as opposed to a smaller toll in each direction, but they were forced into the current setup by 1980's Federal legislation.

6. 6. The MTA's funding sources, as defined by state law, are highly unstable. They bring in a lot when the economy is doing well and they bring in much less when the economy tanks. On top of that, in 2009, just as the effects of the weak economy were becoming quite apparent, the state legislature opted to take a big pile of dedicated tax revenue earmarked for the MTA and to steal it from the MTA, spending it elsewhere instead. Aside from raising fares and tolls, the MTA has very little say over its own funding. The MTA is also required by state law to have a balanced budget - so, when the MTA was faced with a massive gap between revenues and operating expenses, there was simply no choice but to cut service. If you'd like to assign blame, blame your state legislators who have the power to reform the MTA funding structure but haven't felt compelled to do anything, and adding insult to injury, voted to "divert" (aka steal) dedicated MTA funds elsewhere, exactly when the MTA could least afford the "diversion."

7. 7. Unless you want a bus line to run for one year and then stop, restoring bus service requires steady, annual funding, not a small one-time surplus. I am not a financial expert, and neither, it is quite obvious, are you. I will leave it to the financial experts to determine if the MTA can realistically expect an improved long-term financial outlook, or if the situation is likely to get worse in the next year or two. Until that determination is made, the MTA cannot commit to run a new or restored service year after year after year.

8. 8. If you're so happy to be living in Riverdale, why are you "fighting" for the X28? And, by the way, much as you repeatedly deny it, plenty of Riverdale residents take the Bx7/10/20 to the 1 train - there's a reason 231st has long been such a busy station.

9. 9. During the day on weekends, 20 minute waits for the F or for the A are very uncommon. That's not to say they never happen, but to run away from the F in the wrong direction on an express bus is just absurd.

10. 10. The BxM1 and BxM2 go to different places. If you're going to lump them together, then perhaps you should also lump together the D and F trains, which run on a combined headway of 5 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays - and both of which (normally) go to Coney Island.

 

 

Coney Island layups will probably still drop out at 59th, but I'm just guessing.

 

 

Fix the MTA's funding structure. The MTA is a creature of the state, and the state legislature has the power to make whatever changes it deems appropriate to the laws governing the MTA. If the state legislature wishes to seriously address the issues, I will gladly cheer them on. But yelling and screaming doesn't solve any problems.

 

 

The MTA does not have the power to impose taxes. The state collects several taxes earmarked for the MTA. Traditionally, those revenues were actually passed on to the MTA, but that tradition changed in 2009, with the "diversion" (theft) I mentioned above, and the new tradition of diverting has kept up ever since. If you don't like those taxes, then ask your elected officials to come up with better funding mechanisms. And if you don't like diversions of dedicated tax revenue, then tell your elected officials in no uncertain terms that you will not vote for any incumbent who supports diversions.

 

The commuter tax was repealed in 1999. Where have you been?

 

By the way - a good number of managers were laid off in 2010, and managers haven't seen raises in over five years. Contrary to your flippant assumptions, good management is critical, and a vast agency like New York City Transit needs a fairly large management to function. Certainly, it's always worth looking for savings in personnel, but we shouldn't ignore the unionized workforce, which is responsible for a much greater share of the MTA's expenses.

 

Culver and Trainmaster5: Excellent posts - you are 100% on target, and I have very little to add.

 

Although we have our arguments from time to time I must thank you for your #6 point and your summation. Spot on.

[LTA1992]

People complaining about things they don't truly understand. Laughable. This is why I don't look at the flaws (Which I barley notice)and think of how it could be worse. Then I keep moving.

[Brooklyn]

 

The bottom line is they don't know how to spend the money they do get.  If they had better oversight they could do more with less.

 

The money they get isn't enough.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

 

The money they get isn't enough.

And what they do get they squander so that just makes matters worse.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

1. 1. An express bus carrying 7-9 people is clearly not vital to any neighborhood. It's a convenience, and possibly or possibly not a time-saver, for a very small number of people.

2. 2. You are simply incorrect about the 2010 cuts. They were instituted as permanent cuts. Many of them were restructurings that benefit some riders while hurting others - the most obvious example being the M train, which is far more useful to far more people on its new routing than it was on its old routing. As for the straight cuts, some of them should have been instituted (permanently) long before they were, while others were of fairly weak routes that still served useful roles. Routes that fall into that last category should be seriously considered for restoration in some fashion, if and when funding permits, but the others most certainly should not.

3. 3. You missed your original express bus? What express bus were you planning to take to Coney Island? And why would you get on an express bus that wasn't taking you anywhere near your destination? I'm sorry, your story doesn't make much sense.

4. 4. No, your mistake was taking the X17 in the first place, dumping you a mile and a half from the D train, rather than walking a block to the D or F. Even if you had started off on the D and ignored all of the signs and announcements about the GO, you would have still ended up at Bay Parkway much sooner. In the end, since you were on the B1, you could have stayed on the B1 to the F train. The MTA's service advisory clearly gave multiple options from Bay Parkway, including the B1 to the F and the B6 to the B64 - waiting for the B82 was just one of several options. Of course, you could have avoided it all by starting out on the F (or the Q one more block away, if you prefer).

5. 5. A lot of people deliberately avoid the Verrazano toll by only using the Verrazano to leave the island, entering through New Jersey instead. Not many people loop the other way around. The MTA loses money with the double westbound toll as opposed to a smaller toll in each direction, but they were forced into the current setup by 1980's Federal legislation.

6. 6. The MTA's funding sources, as defined by state law, are highly unstable. They bring in a lot when the economy is doing well and they bring in much less when the economy tanks. On top of that, in 2009, just as the effects of the weak economy were becoming quite apparent, the state legislature opted to take a big pile of dedicated tax revenue earmarked for the MTA and to steal it from the MTA, spending it elsewhere instead. Aside from raising fares and tolls, the MTA has very little say over its own funding. The MTA is also required by state law to have a balanced budget - so, when the MTA was faced with a massive gap between revenues and operating expenses, there was simply no choice but to cut service. If you'd like to assign blame, blame your state legislators who have the power to reform the MTA funding structure but haven't felt compelled to do anything, and adding insult to injury, voted to "divert" (aka steal) dedicated MTA funds elsewhere, exactly when the MTA could least afford the "diversion."

7. 7. Unless you want a bus line to run for one year and then stop, restoring bus service requires steady, annual funding, not a small one-time surplus. I am not a financial expert, and neither, it is quite obvious, are you. I will leave it to the financial experts to determine if the MTA can realistically expect an improved long-term financial outlook, or if the situation is likely to get worse in the next year or two. Until that determination is made, the MTA cannot commit to run a new or restored service year after year after year.

8. 8. If you're so happy to be living in Riverdale, why are you "fighting" for the X28? And, by the way, much as you repeatedly deny it, plenty of Riverdale residents take the Bx7/10/20 to the 1 train - there's a reason 231st has long been such a busy station.

9. 9. During the day on weekends, 20 minute waits for the F or for the A are very uncommon. That's not to say they never happen, but to run away from the F in the wrong direction on an express bus is just absurd.

10. 10. The BxM1 and BxM2 go to different places. If you're going to lump them together, then perhaps you should also lump together the D and F trains, which run on a combined headway of 5 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays - and both of which (normally) go to Coney Island.

 

 

Coney Island layups will probably still drop out at 59th, but I'm just guessing.

 

 

Fix the MTA's funding structure. The MTA is a creature of the state, and the state legislature has the power to make whatever changes it deems appropriate to the laws governing the MTA. If the state legislature wishes to seriously address the issues, I will gladly cheer them on. But yelling and screaming doesn't solve any problems.

 

 

The MTA does not have the power to impose taxes. The state collects several taxes earmarked for the MTA. Traditionally, those revenues were actually passed on to the MTA, but that tradition changed in 2009, with the "diversion" (theft) I mentioned above, and the new tradition of diverting has kept up ever since. If you don't like those taxes, then ask your elected officials to come up with better funding mechanisms. And if you don't like diversions of dedicated tax revenue, then tell your elected officials in no uncertain terms that you will not vote for any incumbent who supports diversions.

 

The commuter tax was repealed in 1999. Where have you been?

 

By the way - a good number of managers were laid off in 2010, and managers haven't seen raises in over five years. Contrary to your flippant assumptions, good management is critical, and a vast agency like New York City Transit needs a fairly large management to function. Certainly, it's always worth looking for savings in personnel, but we shouldn't ignore the unionized workforce, which is responsible for a much greater share of the MTA's expenses.

 

 

 

1.  Please.  I've been on empty subways and MetroNorth and LIRR trains as well.  Doesn't mean they should be cut because they carry light loads at times and MetroNorth and LIRR have very high operating costs.  You act like every local bus subway, MetroNorth and LIRR trip is packed to the rafters.  Give me a break with the constant b*tching about some express bus trips that carry light loads.  You're just trying to make the express buses out to be a scapegoat.  Oh they're so expensive to operate. Last I checked so is MetroNorth and the LIRR. Yeah I know, they carry more than express buses.  Well of course.  Express buses seat far less people, so that's no shocker and generally serve areas that are less dense in population.

 

2. The even stated that the 2010 cuts were painful and ones that they would look to restore when the funding became available.  You clearly have your sources wrong.  If they were permanent, they wouldn't be called "restorations".  The posts them as "new services" like the X27 weekend service, but last I checked, a new service is something that didn't exist before.  The X27 ran both Saturdays and Sundays, so there is nothing "new" about that weekend service, and neither are the other restorations like the B2, B64, B4, etc.

 

3. I wasn't planning on going to Coney Island, so I had a change of plans.

 

4. Um yeah and what about all of the other people that took the and spent close to an hour between trying to get on a B82 that they could fit on and getting to Coney Island or other points generally served by the ?  They usually provide shuttle buses when the trains are knocked out.  Why should this instance be any different??  There were hoards of people waiting for buses coming off of Bay Parkway.  The only way you can excuse that is because you brown nose the at all costs.

 

5. That's true, but that still doesn't excuse the exorbitant toll.

 

6. I never blamed the entirely, the way you and others put the sole blame on the politicians.  You act like the doesn't know how it's supposed to operate.  They know the set up and you and I know that tax revenues from Albany isn't their sole source of revenue.

 

7. Well they can't keep raising the fares and tolls and expecting passengers to accept less service either because they can't get their financial house in order.  Even they have admitted that the way in which they secure funding has to change, so the question is why aren't they being more proactive about it?

 

8. That's easy to answer. I live in Riverdale, but I grew up in South Brooklyn, so I'll always be a Brooklynite through and through. The neighborhoods in South Brooklyn were once vibrant communities, particularly when transportation was better in these communities.  I've seen the impact first hand of what these communities have faced as a result and it's simply unjust.  When I moved to Staten Island and saw the poor transportation Staten Islanders received, I realized that the is very political and biased.  The more whiter suburban middle class neighborhoods are supposed to accept what the gives them and how dare them request any more crumbs.  It's disgusting.  

 

That's why I applaud these communities for making noise because if these were minority communities making a fuss or even yuppy uber rich communities, there wouldn't be nearly as much opposition to their requests. You can say whatever you want about my opinion, but that's my true feelings after living on Staten Island for several years and seeing how they treated mainly middle class white more suburban like neighborhoods.  Somehow their needs aren't as important as either more urban dense areas or wealthier areas like the Upper East Side.  Yeah the Upper East Side lost the X90, but those residents have other options.  I can assure you that Gorgor just hops in a yellow taxi to get to his office and that's that. In South Brooklyn some services like the B4 left residents facing double transfers and in areas with high senior populations, the bus service is even that more important.  

 

Furthermore, South Brooklyn faced some of most severe transportation cuts and I don't think that was a coincidence either.  They are less dense neighborhoods and so I think the targeted those areas because #1 they wanted to cut those services a long time ago and this gave the perfect excuse to do so and #2 they didn't think we'd have the balls to stand up and fight them.  Even if we lose, it's important for us to show them that we're aware of what they're doing because not all of this is fiscally related.  There is a lot of politics with transportation and I'm seeing this first hand in Riverdale, a very well politically connected upper middle class neighborhood.  We have what we have because we don't allow the to push us around and folks are very involved here which I like a lot.  In fact it seems as if neighborhoods in the Bronx have this stance with transportation, which is why their bus service wasn't ravaged the way Brooklyn's was. 

 

As for Riverdale, when did I deny that our residents don't use the subway?  Some of them do, but seeing how inconvenient that set up is, many opt for the express buses or MetroNorth.  

 

9.  If you want to be technical yes, but the commuter transportation mobility tax is pretty much the same sh*t with a different name.  It was repealed, but I'm sure the will win on appeals.

 

10. They do but let's not be foolish here.  They provide 15 minute frequencies throughout most of the day, and plenty of people use the BxM1 and BxM2 interchangeably, which is exactly what I do.  People want to get moving even if it takes them longer.  An extra 15 minutes is better than waiting for a bus for another 30 minutes that may have traffic or may be delayed.

[bobtehpanda]

The bottom line is they don't know how to spend the money they do get.  If they had better oversight they could do more with less.

 

What do you mean, "They don't know how to spend the money they do get"? Not counting things like debt service and pension costs (both of which are wholly out of their control, since arbitration in New York is extremely slanted against employers, and the city and state are perfectly fine with loading the MTA with capital budget debt), services aren't terrible cost/rider wise - at the very least, NYCT services run a relatively tight ship. Only MNRR and LIRR are ridiculous in terms of unit costs, and that's partially because of the nature of their operations (multiple conductors, peak-direction heavy, antiquated signalling) and because the suburban counties, particularly Nassau, have this very strange idea that they're shouldering the MTA cost burden for the city even though the city has received the brunt of the cuts.

 

The problem with increasing service in places like Staten Island is that these places are largely low-density, or they have crappy pedestrian facilities, or both. Transit service to low-density areas is going to be both less effective and more expensive to run, since the amount of people you can serve in a given amount of space is smaller by definition. Some of the cuts that they have restored actually make more sense than the services they replaced - the Q36 is doing a lot better than the Q79, for instance.

 

MTA will probably restore services, and possibly restructure them so that they work better (just like they did with the old Q79). The new MTA routes that they're creating are definitely half-assed though.

[RtrainBlues]

Has anyone noticed the R has had some of the "new" trains (like those on the N and Q lines) while the F has had some older trains this past week?  I noticed a southbound "new" R train around Tuesday 9:20pm at Atlantic, and Wednesday southbound just past 6pm at Atlantic.  Perhaps the F train is getting a few older trains that have been on the R line (like the uptown F I saw at West 4th today at rush-hour)?  You can really feel the speed on these new trains on the R; there's a significant difference in speed.

[AndrewJC]

Although we have our arguments from time to time I must thank you for your #6 point and your summation. Spot on.

 

We may disagree elsewhere, but I agree fully with everything you've said here.

 

1.  Please.  I've been on empty subways and MetroNorth and LIRR trains as well.  Doesn't mean they should be cut because they carry light loads at times and MetroNorth and LIRR have very high operating costs.  You act like every local bus subway, MetroNorth and LIRR trip is packed to the rafters.  Give me a break with the constant b*tching about some express bus trips that carry light loads.  You're just trying to make the express buses out to be a scapegoat.  Oh they're so expensive to operate. Last I checked so is MetroNorth and the LIRR. Yeah I know, they carry more than express buses.  Well of course.  Express buses seat far less people, so that's no shocker and generally serve areas that are less dense in population.

 

2. The even stated that the 2010 cuts were painful and ones that they would look to restore when the funding became available.  You clearly have your sources wrong.  If they were permanent, they wouldn't be called "restorations".  The posts them as "new services" like the X27 weekend service, but last I checked, a new service is something that didn't exist before.  The X27 ran both Saturdays and Sundays, so there is nothing "new" about that weekend service, and neither are the other restorations like the B2, B64, B4, etc.

 

3. I wasn't planning on going to Coney Island, so I had a change of plans.

 

4. Um yeah and what about all of the other people that took the and spent close to an hour between trying to get on a B82 that they could fit on and getting to Coney Island or other points generally served by the ?  They usually provide shuttle buses when the trains are knocked out.  Why should this instance be any different??  There were hoards of people waiting for buses coming off of Bay Parkway.  The only way you can excuse that is because you brown nose the at all costs.

 

5. That's true, but that still doesn't excuse the exorbitant toll.

 

6. I never blamed the entirely, the way you and others put the sole blame on the politicians.  You act like the doesn't know how it's supposed to operate.  They know the set up and you and I know that tax revenues from Albany isn't their sole source of revenue.

 

7. Well they can't keep raising the fares and tolls and expecting passengers to accept less service either because they can't get their financial house in order.  Even they have admitted that the way in which they secure funding has to change, so the question is why aren't they being more proactive about it?

 

8. That's easy to answer. I live in Riverdale, but I grew up in South Brooklyn, so I'll always be a Brooklynite through and through. The neighborhoods in South Brooklyn were once vibrant communities, particularly when transportation was better in these communities.  I've seen the impact first hand of what these communities have faced as a result and it's simply unjust.  When I moved to Staten Island and saw the poor transportation Staten Islanders received, I realized that the is very political and biased.  The more whiter suburban middle class neighborhoods are supposed to accept what the gives them and how dare them request any more crumbs.  It's disgusting.  

 

That's why I applaud these communities for making noise because if these were minority communities making a fuss or even yuppy uber rich communities, there wouldn't be nearly as much opposition to their requests. You can say whatever you want about my opinion, but that's my true feelings after living on Staten Island for several years and seeing how they treated mainly middle class white more suburban like neighborhoods.  Somehow their needs aren't as important as either more urban dense areas or wealthier areas like the Upper East Side.  Yeah the Upper East Side lost the X90, but those residents have other options.  I can assure you that Gorgor just hops in a yellow taxi to get to his office and that's that. In South Brooklyn some services like the B4 left residents facing double transfers and in areas with high senior populations, the bus service is even that more important.  

 

Furthermore, South Brooklyn faced some of most severe transportation cuts and I don't think that was a coincidence either.  They are less dense neighborhoods and so I think the targeted those areas because #1 they wanted to cut those services a long time ago and this gave the perfect excuse to do so and #2 they didn't think we'd have the balls to stand up and fight them.  Even if we lose, it's important for us to show them that we're aware of what they're doing because not all of this is fiscally related.  There is a lot of politics with transportation and I'm seeing this first hand in Riverdale, a very well politically connected upper middle class neighborhood.  We have what we have because we don't allow the to push us around and folks are very involved here which I like a lot.  In fact it seems as if neighborhoods in the Bronx have this stance with transportation, which is why their bus service wasn't ravaged the way Brooklyn's was. 

 

As for Riverdale, when did I deny that our residents don't use the subway?  Some of them do, but seeing how inconvenient that set up is, many opt for the express buses or MetroNorth.  

 

9.  If you want to be technical yes, but the commuter transportation mobility tax is pretty much the same sh*t with a different name.  It was repealed, but I'm sure the will win on appeals.

 

10. They do but let's not be foolish here.  They provide 15 minute frequencies throughout most of the day, and plenty of people use the BxM1 and BxM2 interchangeably, which is exactly what I do.  People want to get moving even if it takes them longer.  An extra 15 minutes is better than waiting for a bus for another 30 minutes that may have traffic or may be delayed.

 

1. 1. There are no subway lines that carry an average peak load of under a dozen passengers per train, on any day of the week, at any period of the day except in some cases in the middle of the night. While I'm not an expert in LIRR and Metro-North operations, I'd be surprised if the same doesn't apply there. The commuter railroads are far more efficient than express buses - remember, many of their riders are traveling much longer distances than express bus riders - and in most cases there is no other transit option that costs less to operate. Express buses by and large provide an option for people who don't want to ride a local bus to the subway or ferry.
2. 2. Clearly your first sentence is in error, since, when they announced their package of service enhancements last year, some were restorations and others were not. There's nothing wrong with calling a restoration a restoration, and doing so doesn't imply that the intent at the outset was anything other than permanent discontinuation.
3. 3. Then why did you claim last week that you boarded the X17 because you didn't want to walk to the subway (a whole block away)? When you boarded the X17, did you or did you not know that you were going to Coney Island?
4. 4. The service advisory, with the detailed map showing multiple options, was posted all over the station. If everybody insisted on waiting for the B82, I find it hard to blame anybody but themselves. The Guide-a-Ride makes it quite clear that only alternate buses run through to Coney Island. Shuttle buses are provided when there's no preexisting bus service that covers the route or when that preexisting service doesn't have enough capacity to carry the anticipated ridership. With multiple options, there was plenty of capacity to Coney Island here.
5. 5. The toll for somebody driving from Brooklyn to Staten Island and back over the Verrazano is exactly the same as the toll for somebody driving from Queens to the Bronx and back over the Throgs Neck. The only difference is that it's collected all at once rather than in two installments. And the only reason it's collected all at once is that the TBTA was forced by Federal legislation in the 80's to eliminate the eastbound toll on the Verrazano - it's not something they voluntarily did.
6. 6. The MTA knows that its funding sources are highly volatile but that its expenses are not, but those funding sources are defined by state legislation and are out of the MTA's hands. Your state legislators can do something about it, if they so choose, but the MTA itself cannot. And the MTA certainly was not expecting the state to steal $143 million out of its pocket in 2009.
7. 7. As I just said, talk to your state legislators. They're the ones who decide how the MTA is funded.
8. 8. The best way to fight for a bus line is to ride it. Lines that have heavy ridership get frequent service. The weekend X28 was canceled because it had very low ridership. Suburban areas are simply not very conducive to transit service, so the service they get will never be as frequent or as comprehensive as service in high density urban parts of the New York. But I like the way you come to the defense of the poor, downtrodden express bus rider, and your outright racism is oh so quaint. As for Riverdale, ridership on the three local bus lines connecting to the 1 train vastly outnumbers ridership on the BxM1, BxM2, BxM18, and Metro-North Riverdale station combined.
9. 9. The current payroll tax is very different from the commuter tax that was repealed in 1999.
10. 10. The D and F trains provide 5 minute frequencies throughout most of the day on Saturday and Sunday, and plenty of people use the D and F interchangeably. Even those who don't still only wait up to 10 minutes. (I've known quite a few Riverdale residents, but when they've ridden the express buses, they've always waited for a specific bus.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What do you mean, "They don't know how to spend the money they do get"? Not counting things like debt service and pension costs (both of which are wholly out of their control, since arbitration in New York is extremely slanted against employers, and the city and state are perfectly fine with loading the MTA with capital budget debt), services aren't terrible cost/rider wise - at the very least, NYCT services run a relatively tight ship. Only MNRR and LIRR are ridiculous in terms of unit costs, and that's partially because of the nature of their operations (multiple conductors, peak-direction heavy, antiquated signalling) and because the suburban counties, particularly Nassau, have this very strange idea that they're shouldering the MTA cost burden for the city even though the city has received the brunt of the cuts.

 

The problem with increasing service in places like Staten Island is that these places are largely low-density, or they have crappy pedestrian facilities, or both. Transit service to low-density areas is going to be both less effective and more expensive to run, since the amount of people you can serve in a given amount of space is smaller by definition. Some of the cuts that they have restored actually make more sense than the services they replaced - the Q36 is doing a lot better than the Q79, for instance.

 

MTA will probably restore services, and possibly restructure them so that they work better (just like they did with the old Q79). The new MTA routes that they're creating are definitely half-assed though.

Not filling in drivers is NOT a way of "saving" money,  but it's a tactic that they used and admitted to using.  That's a half-@ssed way of jerking around customers that the started doing. It seems to be less of a problem now that they've cut so much service but still inexcusable.

 

 

1. There are no subway lines that carry an average peak load of under a dozen passengers per train, on any day of the week, at any period of the day except in some cases in the middle of the night. While I'm not an expert in LIRR and Metro-North operations, I'd be surprised if the same doesn't apply there. The commuter railroads are far more efficient than express buses - remember, many of their riders are traveling much longer distances than express bus riders - and in most cases there is no other transit option that costs less to operate. Express buses by and large provide an option for people who don't want to ride a local bus to the subway or ferry.

1. 2. Clearly your first sentence is in error, since, when they announced their package of service enhancements last year, some were restorations and others were not. There's nothing wrong with calling a restoration a restoration, and doing so doesn't imply that the intent at the outset was anything other than permanent discontinuation.
2. 3. Then why did you claim last week that you boarded the X17 because you didn't want to walk to the subway (a whole block away)? When you boarded the X17, did you or did you not know that you were going to Coney Island?
3. 4. The service advisory, with the detailed map showing multiple options, was posted all over the station. If everybody insisted on waiting for the B82, I find it hard to blame anybody but themselves. The Guide-a-Ride makes it quite clear that only alternate buses run through to Coney Island. Shuttle buses are provided when there's no preexisting bus service that covers the route or when that preexisting service doesn't have enough capacity to carry the anticipated ridership. With multiple options, there was plenty of capacity to Coney Island here.
4. 5. The toll for somebody driving from Brooklyn to Staten Island and back over the Verrazano is exactly the same as the toll for somebody driving from Queens to the Bronx and back over the Throgs Neck. The only difference is that it's collected all at once rather than in two installments. And the only reason it's collected all at once is that the TBTA was forced by Federal legislation in the 80's to eliminate the eastbound toll on the Verrazano - it's not something they voluntarily did.
5. 6. The MTA knows that its funding sources are highly volatile but that its expenses are not, but those funding sources are defined by state legislation and are out of the MTA's hands. Your state legislators can do something about it, if they so choose, but the MTA itself cannot. And the MTA certainly was not expecting the state to steal $143 million out of its pocket in 2009.
6. 7. As I just said, talk to your state legislators. They're the ones who decide how the MTA is funded.
7. 8. The best way to fight for a bus line is to ride it. Lines that have heavy ridership get frequent service. The weekend X28 was canceled because it had very low ridership. Suburban areas are simply not very conducive to transit service, so the service they get will never be as frequent or as comprehensive as service in high density urban parts of the New York. But I like the way you come to the defense of the poor, downtrodden express bus rider, and your outright racism is oh so quaint. As for Riverdale, ridership on the three local bus lines connecting to the 1 train vastly outnumbers ridership on the BxM1, BxM2, BxM18, and Metro-North Riverdale station combined.
8. 9. The current payroll tax is very different from the commuter tax that was repealed in 1999.
9. 10. The D and F trains provide 5 minute frequencies throughout most of the day on Saturday and Sunday, and plenty of people use the D and F interchangeably. Even those who don't still only wait up to 10 minutes. (I've known quite a few Riverdale residents, but when they've ridden the express buses, they've always waited for a specific bus.)

 

 

1. Some cases in the middle of the night? I've been on a few trains that have certainly had less than a dozen passengers in a car, so that's an out and out lie. Nevertheless it would be outright ridiculous to cut that service.  As for commuter railroads, I've been on LIRR trains where I was the ONLY one in the car.  You're clearly in denial about the cost of commuter rail service because you assume that it's "reasonable" in terms of cost because it carries so many people, when in fact it is VERY expensive to run.  Bobthepanda has given some reasons as to why.  You should read them so that you can stop going on and on about something you're wrong about.

 

2.  Oh please. What part of these cuts were difficult for us to make and we know that they'll have a profound impact on the communities that they serve don't you get?  They stated that they did NOT want to make those cuts and were looking to restore as much service as they could where possible.  Now I'm not going to say that they want to restore everything because the truth is that some of the cuts were really a way for them to cut them and use the budget as an excuse, but some they didn't want to cut.

 

3. This is what happened.  I was planning on taking the BM3 to Sheepshead Bay.  When I realized I was not going to be able to make that bus I started walking and trying to figure out what my plan would be when I saw an X17 coming and I immediately got on it since at the time I wanted to get moving and just wanted to get to South Brooklyn as quickly as possible and figure out the particulars later.  I generally avoid using the subways on weekends due to all of the track work.  They are generally NOT fast on weekends with the track work and the express bus is much faster.  The BM3 can beat the on Saturdays for sure going to say Midtown and allow me to make other connections.  For short distances, the local bus can also beat the subway with all of the delays.

 

4. You're beating a dead horse.  I'm a former Staten Island resident. I know all of that.  That still doesn't excuse the high toll.

 

5. Oh please. Poor ... So helpless.  Meanwhile they're sitting on property that are empty with NO tenants.... The State legislators are doing something about their funding.  That's why the was able to keep more money this year than in past years to allow them to make service restorations.  They were allowed to keep 50 million dollars that they normally have to pay the state.

 

 

6. What a load of BS.  Everyone knows that the Riverdale station isn't heavily used and there are several reasons for that.  For starters, the Riverdale station is mainly used by people in Fieldston or North Riverdale which is far less dense than Central Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil.  The Spuyten Duyvil station sees far more usage so stop trying to exclude that station to fulfill your agenda.  The BxM1, BxM2, BxM18 and MetroNorth are COMMUTER services.  It's ridiculous to even compare a local bus to commuter bus or rail system.  They serve two very different purposes and you know that.  They are there to move people to and from Riverdale and Manhattan and nothing more and there is nothing wrong with that either.  Stop trying to demonize commuter travel.  Everyone doesn't have the desire to live an urban lifestyle or live in dense areas and therefore we require commuter services.  It pains you but that's life. Get over it.

 

7. The payroll tax is still a form of a commuter tax, whether you want to admit it or not and that's the point.

 

8. Some Riverdale residents do only wait for one particular express bus and those people don't care about the wait. However many other Riverdale residents switch between the three buses.  I see quite a few people that use all three express buses because their commutes are flexible and they care about moving quickly. I've walked from the East Side to the West Side and vice versa. It's not ideal but depending on where you're located, going from West to East or vice versa can be bad or not as bad.

 

[trainfan22]

Has anyone noticed the R has had some of the "new" trains (like those on the N and Q lines) while the F has had some older trains this past week?  I noticed a southbound "new" R train around Tuesday 9:20pm at Atlantic, and Wednesday southbound just past 6pm at Atlantic.  Perhaps the F train is getting a few older trains that have been on the R line (like the uptown F I saw at West 4th today at rush-hour)?  You can really feel the speed on these new trains on the R; there's a significant difference in speed.

Those "new" trains always end up on that line during the summer.

 

The always had a couple of old trains on the line year round.

[Fresh Pond]

1. Some cases in the middle of the night? I've been on a few trains that have certainly had less than a dozen passengers in a car, so that's an out and out lie. Nevertheless it would be outright ridiculous to cut that service. As for commuter railroads, I've been on LIRR trains where I was the ONLY one in the car. You're clearly in denial about the cost of commuter rail service because you assume that it's "reasonable" in terms of cost because it carries so many people, when in fact it is VERY expensive to run. Bobthepanda has given some reasons as to why. You should read them so that you can stop going on and on about something you're wrong about.

 

4. You're beating a dead horse. I'm a former Staten Island resident. I know all of that. That still doesn't excuse the high toll.

 

1. Just because you was in a car with less than a dozen people doesn't mean the entire train has less than a dozen people in it. The subway runs a barebones service overnight which is frankly one step above closing it at that time.

 

4. You're still not seeing the point. No matter if you collect double the price in one direction or regular price in both directions, its still the same exact price you're paying regardless...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. Just because you was in a car with less than a dozen people doesn't mean the entire train has less than a dozen people in it. The subway runs a barebones service overnight which is frankly one step above closing it at that time.

 

4. You're still not seeing the point. No matter if you collect double the price in one direction or regular price in both directions, its still the same exact price you're paying regardless...

1.  Of course not, but my point is all services are lightly used at some point or another and they shouldn't be cut necessarily because people still need the service.  

 

2. Try telling that to those who live and or commute to and from Staten Island.  Also try telling that to the businesses that are considering moving because of the high tolls.  

[RollOver]

Has anyone noticed the R has had some of the "new" trains (like those on the N and Q lines) while the F has had some older trains this past week?  I noticed a southbound "new" R train around Tuesday 9:20pm at Atlantic, and Wednesday southbound just past 6pm at Atlantic.  Perhaps the F train is getting a few older trains that have been on the R line (like the uptown F I saw at West 4th today at rush-hour)?  You can really feel the speed on these new trains on the R; there's a significant difference in speed.

 

Some R46s are still running on the because it been gave some of its R160s to make the 100% of those again which gave its R68As to the . R160s commonly show up on the whenever problems develop on the R46s or something, whatever may be the case.

[AndrewJC]

1. Some cases in the middle of the night? I've been on a few trains that have certainly had less than a dozen passengers in a car, so that's an out and out lie. Nevertheless it would be outright ridiculous to cut that service.  As for commuter railroads, I've been on LIRR trains where I was the ONLY one in the car.  You're clearly in denial about the cost of commuter rail service because you assume that it's "reasonable" in terms of cost because it carries so many people, when in fact it is VERY expensive to run.  Bobthepanda has given some reasons as to why.  You should read them so that you can stop going on and on about something you're wrong about.

 

I said peak load. Do you know what a peak load is? It's the heaviest load on a train or bus as it proceeds from start to finish.

 

There is no subway line anywhere in the city that has a peak load of under a dozen per train, and I'd be surprised if the same doesn't apply to the commuter railroads. There are multiple express bus lines that have a peak load of under a dozen per bus on weekends. There's nothing reasonable about running a bus from one end of the line to the other if it isn't even serving a dozen people.

 

A bus carrying less than a dozen people per hour cannot possibly be described as vital. As I said, it's a convenience for the few people who choose to avail themselves of it. Almost all of their neighbors find other ways to get around.

 

2.  Oh please. What part of these cuts were difficult for us to make and we know that they'll have a profound impact on the communities that they serve don't you get?  They stated that they did NOT want to make those cuts and were looking to restore as much service as they could where possible.  Now I'm not going to say that they want to restore everything because the truth is that some of the cuts were really a way for them to cut them and use the budget as an excuse, but some they didn't want to cut.

 

Where do you see any indication that any of these cuts are temporary?

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/2010ServiceReduction.htm

 

3. This is what happened.  I was planning on taking the BM3 to Sheepshead Bay.  When I realized I was not going to be able to make that bus I started walking and trying to figure out what my plan would be when I saw an X17 coming and I immediately got on it since at the time I wanted to get moving and just wanted to get to South Brooklyn as quickly as possible and figure out the particulars later.  I generally avoid using the subways on weekends due to all of the track work.  They are generally NOT fast on weekends with the track work and the express bus is much faster.  The BM3 can beat the on Saturdays for sure going to say Midtown and allow me to make other connections.  For short distances, the local bus can also beat the subway with all of the delays.

 

 

You took the X17 to get to Sheepshead Bay?! It would take a pretty outlandish GO for the Q train from Times Square to take longer than any routing involving the X17.

 

The GO's are all posted online and in stations. If you have a smartphone, you can look them up on the fly and see if there's anything that would affect your trip. If not, you can look them up on the platform while you're waiting for the train. It really isn't difficult.

 

 

4. You're beating a dead horse.  I'm a former Staten Island resident. I know all of that.  That still doesn't excuse the high toll.

 

 

If you'd prefer to pay $5.33 in each direction than to pay $10.66 westbound and $0.00 eastbound, then persuade your elected officials to allow the MTA to restore eastbound tolling. 

 

5. Oh please. Poor ... So helpless.  Meanwhile they're sitting on property that are empty with NO tenants.... The State legislators are doing something about their funding.  That's why the was able to keep more money this year than in past years to allow them to make service restorations.  They were allowed to keep 50 million dollars that they normally have to pay the state.

 

 

I will type s-l-o-w-l-y this time. Maybe that will help you understand.

 

The taxes that support the MTA are unstable. Some years they bring in more revenue than other years. Plans are based on projections of future revenues, but projections are never perfect - sometimes they're low and sometimes they're high. This time they were low, to the tune of $40 million, and the state only stole half of that. There was no gift.

 

If you're referring to something else by "They were allowed to keep 50 million dollars that they normally have to pay the state," you're going to have to clue me in.

 

 

6. What a load of BS.  Everyone knows that the Riverdale station isn't heavily used and there are several reasons for that.  For starters, the Riverdale station is mainly used by people in Fieldston or North Riverdale which is far less dense than Central Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil.  The Spuyten Duyvil station sees far more usage so stop trying to exclude that station to fulfill your agenda.  The BxM1, BxM2, BxM18 and MetroNorth are COMMUTER services.  It's ridiculous to even compare a local bus to commuter bus or rail system.  They serve two very different purposes and you know that.  They are there to move people to and from Riverdale and Manhattan and nothing more and there is nothing wrong with that either.  Stop trying to demonize commuter travel.  Everyone doesn't have the desire to live an urban lifestyle or live in dense areas and therefore we require commuter services.  It pains you but that's life. Get over it.

 

 

Add in the 913 daily Spuyten Duyvil riders if it makes you happy - it doesn't change my point. That's less than the weekday ridership at East 143rd St. on the 6 train - the lowest use subway station in all of the Bronx.

 

The local buses carry large quantities of riders to the subway every morning, to bring them ultimately to the Manhattan CBD. I know that you don't take the local bus to the subway to get to Manhattan, but many of your neighbors do. It pains you but that's life. Get over it.

 

 

7. The payroll tax is still a form of a commuter tax, whether you want to admit it or not and that's the point.

 

 

The payroll tax is not a commuter tax at all.

 

The commuter tax, which was abolished in 1999, was assessed by the city on people who worked in New York City but lived elsewhere.

 

The payroll tax is assessed by the state on businesses in the entire MTA region, regardless of where their employees live.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_tax

 

 

8. Some Riverdale residents do only wait for one particular express bus and those people don't care about the wait. However many other Riverdale residents switch between the three buses.  I see quite a few people that use all three express buses because their commutes are flexible and they care about moving quickly. I've walked from the East Side to the West Side and vice versa. It's not ideal but depending on where you're located, going from West to East or vice versa can be bad or not as bad.

 

 

Congratulations for them. Meanwhile, every subway line on weekends (aside from the A past the Rockaway/Lefferts split) runs more frequently than the BxM1 and BxM2 combined.

[bobtehpanda]

Jesus, why are we starting another express bus flame war again...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

I said peak load. Do you know what a peak load is? It's the heaviest load on a train or bus as it proceeds from start to finish.

 

There is no subway line anywhere in the city that has a peak load of under a dozen per train, and I'd be surprised if the same doesn't apply to the commuter railroads. There are multiple express bus lines that have a peak load of under a dozen per bus on weekends. There's nothing reasonable about running a bus from one end of the line to the other if it isn't even serving a dozen people.

 

A bus carrying less than a dozen people per hour cannot possibly be described as vital. As I said, it's a convenience for the few people who choose to avail themselves of it. Almost all of their neighbors find other ways to get around.

 

 

Where do you see any indication that any of these cuts are temporary?

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/2010ServiceReduction.htm

 

 

You took the X17 to get to Sheepshead Bay?! It would take a pretty outlandish GO for the Q train from Times Square to take longer than any routing involving the X17.

 

The GO's are all posted online and in stations. If you have a smartphone, you can look them up on the fly and see if there's anything that would affect your trip. If not, you can look them up on the platform while you're waiting for the train. It really isn't difficult.

 

 

If you'd prefer to pay $5.33 in each direction than to pay $10.66 westbound and $0.00 eastbound, then persuade your elected officials to allow the MTA to restore eastbound tolling. 

 

 

I will type s-l-o-w-l-y this time. Maybe that will help you understand.

 

The taxes that support the MTA are unstable. Some years they bring in more revenue than other years. Plans are based on projections of future revenues, but projections are never perfect - sometimes they're low and sometimes they're high. This time they were low, to the tune of $40 million, and the state only stole half of that. There was no gift.

 

If you're referring to something else by "They were allowed to keep 50 million dollars that they normally have to pay the state," you're going to have to clue me in.

 

 

Add in the 913 daily Spuyten Duyvil riders if it makes you happy - it doesn't change my point. That's less than the weekday ridership at East 143rd St. on the 6 train - the lowest use subway station in all of the Bronx.

 

The local buses carry large quantities of riders to the subway every morning, to bring them ultimately to the Manhattan CBD. I know that you don't take the local bus to the subway to get to Manhattan, but many of your neighbors do. It pains you but that's life. Get over it.

 

 

The payroll tax is not a commuter tax at all.

 

The commuter tax, which was abolished in 1999, was assessed by the city on people who worked in New York City but lived elsewhere.

 

The payroll tax is assessed by the state on businesses in the entire MTA region, regardless of where their employees live.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_tax

 

 

Congratulations for them. Meanwhile, every subway line on weekends (aside from the A past the Rockaway/Lefferts split) runs more frequently than the BxM1 and BxM2 combined.

 

 

1.  That's because you're anti-bus and pro subway, so of course you don't see buses as being vital.  Subways serve dense areas so they should be crowded most of the time but like I said regardless of the service, they will not always be packed.  That's just the way transportation works, which seem to refuse to accept.

 

2. Do you see any indication that they were permanent?  When a transportation agency is cutting transportation and leaving people stranded in their homes, there is nothing great about that at all.  You can trivialize it all you want but just because a neighborhood doesn't lose subway service doesn't mean that their residents aren't affected as you seem to imply.  You've made a habit of downplaying the importance of bus service and making it seem as if no one uses it just because.  Bus service has been dwindling here because the has run it poorly and has provided a lack of oversight.  They claim that they want to improve it but I'm not seeing that at all, so go on ahead and bash bus service to suit your agenda.

 

3. SI politicians are fighting to lower the tolls which are excessive.

 

4.  I shall type this slowly... I said that I was going to take the BM3 to go to Sheepshead Bay but then changed plans entirely.

 

5. Well that shouldn't be any surprise.  You're comparing a commuter train to a subway #1.  #2 Riverdale has a multitude of options for commuting. and is more suburban in terms of its population density.

 

Since I live here, I see what my fellow neighbors use and at my stop, most of the residents use the express bus or MetroNorth. In fact you will often see more people use the express bus over the local bus by a landslide.  The people using the local buses here often times are commuting from neighborhoods in the Bronx to our schools, nursing homes or other jobs in our neighborhood here in Riverdale.  Now of course some people here use the local bus to the subway, but our express buses and MetroNorth are our true life line.  Taking the local bus to the subway is a painful and tiresome commute.  

 

6. A tax is a tax period, whether you want to accept it or not.

 

7. Yeah and again you're comparing a subway which serves far more dense neighborhoods to an express bus, which serves more suburban neighborhoods like Riverdale...Real bright... 

[Turbo19]

Jesus, why are we starting another express bus flame war again...

Simply for the fact that this is a subway section in a transit forum, so it's expected that a few of the members here are biased towards the subway and hold different views toward buses in general.

 

I personally don't mind either mode, but I'm more likely gravitate towards the bus. It's usually just less of a hassle.

[bobtehpanda]

Simply for the fact that this is a subway section in a transit forum, so it's expected that a few of the members here are biased towards the subway and hold different views toward buses in general.

 

I personally don't mind either mode, but I'm more likely gravitate towards the bus. It's usually just less of a hassle.

 

I'm more titled by in favor of the subway, but this topic more or less gets beaten to death every few months. It's like there's a schedule for it or somethin...

[Turbo19]

I'm more titled by in favor of the subway, but this topic more or less gets beaten to death every few months. It's like there's a schedule for it or somethin...

Yep. Better to have a laugh and move on.

 

Just my take on the matter.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Sigh.

 

An express bus needs 15 riders per trip if the bus is trip is an hour or less to break even. If its more, for every 4 minutes extra it runs, you need one extra rider to break even. That is approximate. Sure you don't have buses on the weekends that have that amount, but if you overall through the week make a gain of at least $100, service will stay the same (or if they're really cheap send traffic checkers to see which trips can be individually cut).

 

Yep. Better to have a laugh and move on.

 

Just my take on the matter.

Lol. I prefer the express bus.

[Turbo19]

Sigh.

 

An express bus needs 15 riders per trip if the bus is trip is an hour or less to break even. If its more, for every 4 minutes extra it runs, you need one extra rider to break even. That is approximate. Sure you don't have buses on the weekends that have that amount, but if you overall through the week make a gain of at least $100, service will stay the same (or if they're really cheap send traffic checkers to see which trips can be individually cut).

 

Lol. I prefer the express bus.

Me too man.

 

_{Though maybe we shouldn't be bumping the thread.}

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Me too man.

 

_{Though maybe we shouldn't be bumping the thread.}

Nah don't worry, it's only bumping if you are write one-liners that make no sense.

[AndrewJC]

1.  That's because you're anti-bus and pro subway, so of course you don't see buses as being vital.  Subways serve dense areas so they should be crowded most of the time but like I said regardless of the service, they will not always be packed.  That's just the way transportation works, which seem to refuse to accept.

 

2. Do you see any indication that they were permanent?  When a transportation agency is cutting transportation and leaving people stranded in their homes, there is nothing great about that at all.  You can trivialize it all you want but just because a neighborhood doesn't lose subway service doesn't mean that their residents aren't affected as you seem to imply.  You've made a habit of downplaying the importance of bus service and making it seem as if no one uses it just because.  Bus service has been dwindling here because the has run it poorly and has provided a lack of oversight.  They claim that they want to improve it but I'm not seeing that at all, so go on ahead and bash bus service to suit your agenda.

 

3. SI politicians are fighting to lower the tolls which are excessive.

 

4.  I shall type this slowly... I said that I was going to take the BM3 to go to Sheepshead Bay but then changed plans entirely.

 

5. Well that shouldn't be any surprise.  You're comparing a commuter train to a subway #1.  #2 Riverdale has a multitude of options for commuting. and is more suburban in terms of its population density.

 

Since I live here, I see what my fellow neighbors use and at my stop, most of the residents use the express bus or MetroNorth. In fact you will often see more people use the express bus over the local bus by a landslide.  The people using the local buses here often times are commuting from neighborhoods in the Bronx to our schools, nursing homes or other jobs in our neighborhood here in Riverdale.  Now of course some people here use the local bus to the subway, but our express buses and MetroNorth are our true life line.  Taking the local bus to the subway is a painful and tiresome commute.  

 

6. A tax is a tax period, whether you want to accept it or not.

 

7. Yeah and again you're comparing a subway which serves far more dense neighborhoods to an express bus, which serves more suburban neighborhoods like Riverdale...Real bright... 

 

 

1. Pardon? Buses are absolutely vital - for providing "crosstown" transportation that the subway can't provide, for supplementing the subway for shorter trips, and for connecting people who aren't in walking distance of the subway to nearby stations. But duplicating the functionality of the subway for long trips is a serious drain on resources. I have nothing against buses, but sometimes there's a better tool for the job. And it's especially difficult to apply the word "vital" to a service that only carries a few people per hour and runs parallel to a subway line which carries thousands per hour.

 

2. Nobody was "stranded in their homes" by the service cuts. You're overdramatizing.

 

3. The round trip Verrazano toll for Staten Island residents is barely higher than the one way toll for Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, and Bronx residents at the Verrazano, Battery Tunnel, Midtown Tunnel, Triboro Bridge, Whitestone Bridge, and Throgs Neck Bridge. Of course the politicians are "fighting" to lower the toll even more - they're masters at pandering.

 

4. Yes, but when you missed the BM3, you took the X17 instead, even though the X17 doesn't go anywhere near Sheepshead Bay. Obviously, if you detest the subway so greatly that you prefer to waste time and make multiple transfers in order to reach your destination by bus, you're welcome to do so - but it hardly makes the case that express buses are in any way vital.

 

5. I'm comparing the various major transit options for reaching the Manhattan CBD from Riverdale: the three express bus lines, the two Metro-North stations, and the three local bus lines to the subway. I have family in Riverdale and I've made many trips there (by all three modes). I am not surprised that the people you associate with all prefer the express bus and Metro-North, but you have many neighbors who are not exactly like you, many of whom prefer the subway option - either because of the lower fare, or because of the better frequency, or because it drops them off closer to work, or because it usually takes less time and is far less prone to delays. If you don't like the subway, that's fine, but many of your neighbors ride it every day.

 

6. Did I ever suggest otherwise?

 

7. The 1 train, which (with the help of the Bx7 and Bx10, or even a walk down the hill) serves Riverdale. It runs every 8 minutes and, especially on weekends, it carries far more Riverdale residents into Manhattan than the express buses.

 

An express bus needs 15 riders per trip if the bus is trip is an hour or less to break even. If its more, for every 4 minutes extra it runs, you need one extra rider to break even. That is approximate. Sure you don't have buses on the weekends that have that amount, but if you overall through the week make a gain of at least $100, service will stay the same (or if they're really cheap send traffic checkers to see which trips can be individually cut).

 

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from, but they're completely wrong. None of the New York City express buses come close to breaking even.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aha-LfXMlWNBdFpZajNOUnNmRkpTSGl2UjRjS2x4eEE&hl=en#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aha-LfXMlWNBdHd4QkhLRF92cURWNWdSbzNfSjJwWWc&hl=en#gid=1