R142A / R188 Psychical differences.

[LTA1992]

Well, I was talking about finds in general being better, not being on he R188s, just to make that clear lol.

[realizm]

No such thing.....Albany is supposed to be doing more and over the last 18 years they found every way possible to do less. Less funding and more pointing fingers and demanding accountability out of an agency they control. Why do you think Albany doesn't go around bragging that they control the MTA? Because they know it would cost them votes.

 

[/Endofftopicrant]

 

Indeed. +1. Lets also throw in the fact that the governor literally steals millions of dollars from the MTA taking transit tax revenues from the public benefits corporation and redirected that money into the state's general fund. Or as you stated, representatives deliberately stalls and filibusters approved budgets with appropriate money allocated to the MTA to cover operation and payroll costs for it's workers, For decades, if at all, passing legislation for public works projects, but at the same time, mandating New York City to actually pay for it themselves, let alone the public benefits corporation that provides us with public transportation.

 

Local politics at it's best, and we all suffer for it, taxpayers in the private and public sector alike including transit workers which I clearly can see and symphasize with. That's all I can say really on the side topic all in all.

[peacemak3r]

Well, I was talking about finds in general being better, not being on he R188s, just to make that clear lol.

 

My comment still stands on the FIND/strip-map.  It doesn't matter to me on any train for that matter.  But to a tourist stand-point, it doesn't matter either because they will either get lost or still end up asking someone for directions either way.

[Grand Concourse]

(didn't read the whole thread, so if answered already, then fine.)

Obviously it comes to cost and as pointed out, the cars are dedicated to just the 7, so it's not like they need to have the find. Plus, at least it lists all the stops, so if the train skips some stops, riders can still follow what station they need. With the Find, if the train has to do a battery run or skip a bunch of stops all of a sudden, the find is shut off. So that's not going to help anyone either. Just because the find is nice, doesn't mean every new train needs to have it. If it is cheaper in a few years, then maybe retrofit them on the R142s on the 2/5 lines as those are where the find is really needed.

[peacemak3r]

The question as stated right above your comment,   was the benefits generally of FIND vs strip-maps.  It didn't matter about the dedicated line or what not, it was just presented upon that because of the fact it was an R188.

[Grand Concourse]

I know, just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

[LTA1992]

My comment still stands on the FIND/strip-map.  It doesn't matter to me on any train for that matter.  But to a tourist stand-point, it doesn't matter either because they will either get lost or still end up asking someone for directions either way.

Says you. You don't know the opinions of all Tourists.

[bobtehpanda]

Says you. You don't know the opinions of all Tourists.

 

Not all tourists have the ability to read and write English. Tourists in general are more likely to ask people on the platforms for help, simply because the existing map is very cluttered and disorganized for any non-regular users to become quickly familiar with.

[LTA1992]

Not all tourists have the ability to read and write English. Tourists in general are more likely to ask people on the platforms for help, simply because the existing map is very cluttered and disorganized for any non-regular users to become quickly familiar with.

Cluttered and disorganized, huh? No, trust me, that's not what surprises people. It's the simple fact that it isn't a diagram/schematic like almost every other metro map in existence. Want cluttered? Please see London, Tokyo, Osaka, and places of the like. THAT is clutter.

[AndrewJC]

Why do you people keep calling the FINDS "Heavily Pixelated"? That makes absolutely no sense. You people are talking like the FINDS look like an extremely low quality Youtube video. The FINDS are WAY easier to read and this is coming from a guy who needs glasses.

 

The text is made up of large, prominent pixels. It's a low resolution display, unlike a printed strip map.

 

(It's so low resolution that the ADA wheelchair symbol looks like a random blob, and there needs to be a note in the corner that the random blob represents a wheelchair symbol!)

 

Railfanner's perspectives on this are besides the point. I am speaking as a straphanger.

 

Simple. The fonts are larger and with the colorful display, it can be more appealing to the eye, despite what you may be saying, easier to read. Remember the change that the MTA made from white signs to black signs in the 80's if we recall? It was concluded by researchers that the signs printed in black are easier to read, particularly for the vision impaired. So is the case with the FIND system, I'm sure that was considered by the manufacturer,  LonWorks, in the development of the R160A and B.

 

Example: It would be much easier for a passenger to see what is the next stop on a FIND display then on a strip map if looking at it from afar. Would'nt it? A "NEXT STOP" in bold red around the yellow LED texted words of the listed stops? On a strip map that will not be easily noticeable particularly by those not accustomed to traveling on the subways. How many times I would see tourists squint in confusion over a strip map trying to figure it out.......

 

Again, I'll state that I understand the main benefit of the FIND system is on the fly reprogramming for route changes, which may not apply to the as a line isolated from the rest of the A division. But that is not my talking point here.

 

In fact that was what was considered in the front route LED displays as well on the bonnet of the R160's. It can be seen from a longer distance.

 

When was the last time you saw a railfanner's perspective from me? I leave that to others - I'm probably one of this board's biggest pragmatists.

 

Strip maps have the colorful display, with a color-coded line and color-coded transfer symbols. The FIND has neither.

 

LonWorks is a networking system. If I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am!), Panasonic is the FIND system vendor, but the system was designed to New York City Transit's specifications.

 

I think most regular riders realize that the best place to look for the next stop is at the vertical text displays near each end of the car, not at the FIND or strip map. I often, however, see tourists looking at the FIND/strip map to see if the train will be making the stop they need, and if they don't see it listed, they panic. A strip map is much more helpful in such a situation - it clearly shows whether the train isn't making that stop because it's a local stop and the train is an express, or because the train's going the other direction, or because it's the wrong line entirely. On R160's (and R142's that don't show the local stops, namely the 2 and 5), I've had to reassure tourists that it's an easy transfer to the local that will take them where they need to go.

 

The front route display is terrible on everything from R142 on up - it's a tiny number or letter, always bright red. The old fashioned roll sign on the R40 through R68 is much easier to read. I understand why the shift was made to electronic signage, but in terms of legibility, it was a major step down. I hope the R211 has something better, perhaps a flat panel display with a large color-coded route symbol, mimicking the manual display on the older cars.

 

If the FIND gets added to the R188, there will be a bunch of animated A-Div fantasy route animations added to a bunch of user's signatures. And NOBODY wants to see that. Bad enough we already got people foaming over an R160 to 179 route.

 

Somehow I have a hunch that that's exactly what's going on here.

 

Not all tourists have the ability to read and write English. Tourists in general are more likely to ask people on the platforms for help, simply because the existing map is very cluttered and disorganized for any non-regular users to become quickly familiar with.

 

The FIND is 100% in English.

 

Cluttered and disorganized, huh? No, trust me, that's not what surprises people. It's the simple fact that it isn't a diagram/schematic like almost every other metro map in existence. Want cluttered? Please see London, Tokyo, Osaka, and places of the like. THAT is clutter.

 

The NYC subway system is far more complex than virtually any other - not only does it have many lines with lots of branches, it also has widespread express service, which is difficult to depict clearly on a map. The current subway map isn't perfect, but I haven't seen any better - all of the alternatives, in my opinion, have greater flaws. Don't forget that a lot of tourists, from within the U.S. especially, don't ride transit back home.

 

But if you're a fan of schematic maps, I'm surprised that you're not a fan of strip maps - a strip map is simply a schematic map of a single line.

 

For tourists who do ride transit at home, there's a good chance they're familiar with the concept of strip maps, since a lot of systems post strip maps (or variations on strip maps) in their subway cars. For example, Chicago and Boston and Toronto and Sao Paolo and London and Paris (more) and Berlin and Madrid and Hong Kong (more) and Beijing and Shenzhen and Shanghai, to name but a few. I haven't found a single system that uses anything FIND-like. If the goal is to give tourists something they're used to from back home, give them strip maps.

[MTAFan]

 

For tourists who do ride transit at home, there's a good chance they're familiar with the concept of strip maps, since a lot of systems post strip maps (or variations on strip maps) in their subway cars. For example, Chicago and Boston and Toronto and Sao Paolo and London and Paris (more) and Berlin and Madrid and Hong Kong (more) and Beijing and Shenzhen and Shanghai, to name but a few. I haven't found a single system that uses anything FIND-like. If the goal is to give tourists something they're used to from back home, give them strip maps.

 

WMATA's new Series 7000 uses something similar to FIND.

[Eric B]

The text is made up of large, prominent pixels. It's a low resolution display, unlike a printed strip map.

 

(It's so low resolution that the ADA wheelchair symbol looks like a random blob, and there needs to be a note in the corner that the random blob represents a wheelchair symbol!)

 

Strip maps have the colorful display, with a color-coded line and color-coded transfer symbols. The FIND has neither.

 

LonWorks is a networking system. If I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am!), Panasonic is the FIND system vendor, but the system was designed to New York City Transit's specifications.

 

I think most regular riders realize that the best place to look for the next stop is at the vertical text displays near each end of the car, not at the FIND or strip map. I often, however, see tourists looking at the FIND/strip map to see if the train will be making the stop they need, and if they don't see it listed, they panic. A strip map is much more helpful in such a situation - it clearly shows whether the train isn't making that stop because it's a local stop and the train is an express, or because the train's going the other direction, or because it's the wrong line entirely. On R160's (and R142's that don't show the local stops, namely the 2 and 5), I've had to reassure tourists that it's an easy transfer to the local that will take them where they need to go.

 

The front route display is terrible on everything from R142 on up - it's a tiny number or letter, always bright red. The old fashioned roll sign on the R40 through R68 is much easier to read. I understand why the shift was made to electronic signage, but in terms of legibility, it was a major step down. I hope the R211 has something better, perhaps a flat panel display with a large color-coded route symbol, mimicking the manual display on the older cars.

For the front sign, there are RGB LED's. Path finally went with these. (Don't know why WMATA is still only using color on those little bars to the side instead of the whole reading being RGB, if I saw the newest signs right).

The are cheap enough to be feasible, but it's a matter of whether the vendor they are using has them available (and then, adding the new data to the computer, which is why they haven't gone RGB on buses, like other agencies have).

 

As for the FIND, the smallest RGB's I've seen (1mm) are on a Chanel display in Macy's, and the resolution is still not as sharp as the FIND, but I would say it's getting close. 

Sony had developed an even finer resolution product called Crystal LED (CLED) for TV's at last year's CES, but apparently given up on it.

So that leaves OLED, with the flexible models being developed right now. Don't know how soon this could ever be adapted for a FIND screen, but it would be the best solution, since you could recreate the strip map card nearly identically, but in lit graphic rather than print.

[Fresh Pond]

WMATA's new Series 7000 uses something similar to FIND.

That's because the entire order itself is based off the R160s

[realizm]

Wow, Toshiba is making the traction motors for the Kawasaki 7000 series cars? Just noticed that. I had no idea they were into heavy industry until now that we are talking about it.

[bobtehpanda]

Wow, Toshiba is making the traction motors for the Kawasaki 7000 series cars? Just noticed that. I had no idea they were into heavy industry until now that we are talking about it.

 

Every Japanese conglomerate has dipped its fingers into everything imaginable at one point or another.

 

Does that thing say "Farrabut North"? You'd think they'd be better at proofreading some of this...

[AndrewJC]

WMATA's new Series 7000 uses something similar to FIND.

 

Interesting, thanks. Not entirely surprising, since WMATA used the same design firm as NYCT (Antenna Design).

 

Still doesn't change my point that, if the goal is to present the information in a format that's familiar to tourists, a strip map is far more likely to be familiar than a FIND.

 

Does that thing say "Farrabut North"? You'd think they'd be better at proofreading some of this...

 

And Woodlley Park.

 

https://twitter.com/wmata/status/178150876018515968

[LTA1992]

But less flexible. What's the point of tourist familiarity if the service display can't be changed on a dime?

[bobtehpanda]

But less flexible. What's the point of tourist familiarity if the service display can't be changed on a dime?

 

But when would you need to change the display on a , which runs its own incompatible signalling system and will do so for the foreseeable future? The has no branches, so it's a matter of turning dots on and off on a strip map.

[R62AR33]

The does not need finds it its its own line and the R188s will not be seeing service on ANY other line . There is no point  on having them because finds cost to much when in this case its not needed . All the tourists have to do is see the map and see if the train is bypassing a station or if its going express and just listen to annoucnements. If tourists on the R62As on the and can listen to the announcements then the tourists on flushing can do the same,

[N4 Via Merrick Rd]

The FINDs are not in the 188s due to interoperability.

[LTA1992]

Not talking about on the R188s, I think this talk is just FINDS in general.

[train fanatic 12]

R142A and R188 are the exact same design. They both use the same traction motor system. They use strip maps and their interior length are the same. They only difference is that R142A is not programed with CBTC and R188 has newer Helvatta numbering in front of the car.