M Train Service to Middle Village

[bobtehpanda]

Comparing the SAS to the QM16/QM17 ridership in one day is like comparing apples to oranges. First off, the SAS covers a whole larger area (and denser as mentioned), than the QM16/QM17. Second, the QM16/QM17 run during rush hours only, where SAS runs 24/7, which is an unfair comparison, to say the very least. Third of all, the QM16/QM17 focus on only one area, whereas the SAS connects multiple areas. On top of that, subway ridership is almost always higher than the bus alternative ridership.

 

And subway ridership at stations on the Rockaway Peninsula is among the lowest of all 468 stations. Public transportation is simply not going to attract a meaningful amount of people in a place as sparsely populated and geographically isolated as the Rockaways.

[Vistausss]

And subway ridership at stations on the Rockaway Peninsula is among the lowest of all 468 stations. Public transportation is simply not going to attract a meaningful amount of people in a place as sparsely populated and geographically isolated as the Rockaways.

 

Except Beach 60th St which garners around 2000 passengers a day, which is still higher than, for example, 104 St (1400), 215 St (1900) and 21 St (1478). But in total, you're right. Maybe they should close down a few stations like Broad Channel which only sees around 300 passengers a day. That's way too low to be feasible.

[Jsunflyguy]

Well, Broad Channel is a convenient transfer, and it can be inferred most of the Rock Park branch use the Broad Channel station to transfer.

[Vistausss]

Well, Broad Channel is a convenient transfer, and it can be inferred most of the Rock Park branch use the Broad Channel station to transfer.

 

If it s so convenient to transfer, then why do less than 300 people use it daily?

[RTOMan]

 

You can message me that rule.. I had chats with a few folks and no one can find this rule.. I for one would love to see it as well there is a good debate going in about this at work. You do know the G line runs OPTO under a tube right?

 

 

In the contract, it states no OPTO service can cross the East River.  The G doesn't, and the tube is very short under Newtown Creek.  The OPTO L was shot down on both counts.  The South Channel of Jamaica Bay isn't as wide as the East River. NOW, if they were to extend the Rockawat Park shuttle to Euclid Avenue, there would have to be a conductor on it, since the north channel is too wide.

 

No I don't believe that's in the contract union reps who talked about this says that clause is not. The length of the train is in it not where it goes. Think about this what's more dangerous a power off in a dark smoke filled tube or on a bridge with open air? Now either way isn't too keen now. Sorta lesser of two evils thing.

 

 

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[RollOver]

And subway ridership at stations on the Rockaway Peninsula is among the lowest of all 468 stations. Public transportation is simply not going to attract a meaningful amount of people in a place as sparsely populated and geographically isolated as the Rockaways.

 

Yeah. At least, Mott Avenue, however, sees more passengers than any of the other subway stations in the peninsula. And the current service pattern/levels on the (including its shorten version - the ) is quite adequate despite what some others say.

[Vistausss]

Yeah. At least, Mott Avenue, however, sees more passengers than any of the other subway stations in the peninsula. And the current service pattern/levels on the (including its shorten version - the ) is quite adequate despite what some others say.

 

Yeah, Far Rock-Mott Ave is a more denser area than the rest of the penisula and the only other option for reaching Manhattan is LIRR which costs more $$$

[bobtehpanda]

If it s so convenient to transfer, then why do less than 300 people use it daily?

Those station counts rely on turnstile counts, and there are no turnstiles to pass through when transferring.

Except Beach 60th St which garners around 2000 passengers a day, which is still higher than, for example, 104 St (1400), 215 St (1900) and 21 St (1478). But in total, you're right. Maybe they should close down a few stations like Broad Channel which only sees around 300 passengers a day. That's way too low to be feasible.

 

Hearing the stories I've heard about 21st St , there are very good reasons why it's unused despite the fact that the neighborhood around it is booming.

[Wallyhorse]

Those station counts rely on turnstile counts, and there are no turnstiles to pass through when transferring.

 

 

Hearing the stories I've heard about 21st St , there are very good reasons why it's unused despite the fact that the neighborhood around it is booming.

Not a surprise.  That station (21st-Van Alst) is still for now likely a holdover from the days when that area had far less going on in it.  It may take the seeing even more building going on in that area to finally do something with that station.

[Fresh Pond]

21 St-Van Alst actually gets good usage, just not at the hours you would expect

[AndrewJC]

Whether you like it or not, not every community needs or is situated to have subway service, and other services such as ferry service, light rail service or express bus service makes more sense.  You are biased against areas that aren't densely populated.   Your attitude is to hell with neighborhoods with smaller populations because they don't have transportation needs.  They shouldn't get city services but yet I'm sure you don't object to them paying their fair share in taxes.  Typical attitude.

Next time you might want to try reading the post before you respond.The Rockaways have subway service, in case you hadn't noticed - restored after Sandy at significant expense, in fact.

 

I read it very well... The question is what does he define as "a little" and "a lot" (self-rhetorical question)...  His past posts (in general, not in this thread) have clarified in my mind what his idea of a lot and a little is.  He takes issues with providing ferry service, light rail service and express bus service, which I would consider "basic necessities" in certain neighborhoods where subways either aren't a possibility or make no sense, while he doesn't. 

If most residents of a neighborhood who commute to Manhattan do so by subway, it's very hard to argue that express buses and ferries are anything other than luxuries. (Light rail? NYC doesn't have any light rail systems!) The basic service between the Rockaways and Manhattan, as the ridership numbers clearly show, is the subway.I only suggest that price tags not be ignored. In a world of limited funding, showering the small minority who are allergic to the subway with huge subsidies is simply poor public policy.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Next time you might want to try reading the post before you respond. The Rockaways have subway service, in case you hadn't noticed - restored after Sandy at significant expense, in fact.

 

If most residents of a neighborhood who commute to Manhattan do so by subway, it's very hard to argue that express buses and ferries are anything other than luxuries. (Light rail? NYC doesn't have any light rail systems!) The basic service between the Rockaways and Manhattan, as the ridership numbers clearly show, is the subway. I only suggest that price tags not be ignored. In a world of limited funding, showering the small minority who are allergic to the subway with huge subsidies is simply poor public policy.

 

 

1) Yeah and? That has nothing to do with them wanting other transportation options.  You act as if having a subway means that it's the end all be all.  Plenty of communities have subway service but they're still underserved because their subway is either only local or serves limited areas or can't run as frequently as it should.

 

2) Light rail has been proposed for Staten Island, hence why it was mentioned.  Also, the subway system is currently under a huge amount of stress.  Folks along the for example use the subway as their primary means of getting around and yet they're being encouraged to use the ferry where possible.  Why? Because the can't handle all of the people on the line.  Your mentality is so flawed.  It would be one thing to argue that shuffling folks to the subway is the answer, but the is doing a poor job of dealing with the increasing amount of people using it and don't tell me otherwise because I use the subway daily now to get around to my private sessions and I see the problems.  Constant delays, overcrowding, etc. It's troubling to say the least, so should we spend billions of dollars on subway projects that continue to be delayed or should we take some of that money and use it on other ways of getting around that can be implemented quickly?  With the 's track record, I'd vote for the later.  Now of course you'll argue that the has a stellar record and that there is nothing wrong with our subway system, but it's been shown through studies also that our system is fragile.  Hurricane Sandy was a perfect example.

[Vistausss]

The thing about LRT is: on SI it would be relatively easy to replace SIR with LRT equipment (and other things needed for LRT) because it's just one route and because it isn't connected to the subway.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The thing about LRT is: on SI it would be relatively easy to replace SIR with LRT equipment (and other things needed for LRT) because it's just one route and because it isn't connected to the subway.

Light rail is being considered for other parts of Staten Island.

[bobtehpanda]

1) Yeah and? That has nothing to do with them wanting other transportation options.  You act as if having a subway means that it's the end all be all.  Plenty of communities have subway service but they're still underserved because their subway is either only local or serves limited areas or can't run as frequently as it should.

 

2) Light rail has been proposed for Staten Island, hence why it was mentioned.  Also, the subway system is currently under a huge amount of stress.  Folks along the for example use the subway as their primary means of getting around and yet they're being encouraged to use the ferry where possible.  Why? Because the can't handle all of the people on the line.  Your mentality is so flawed.  It would be one thing to argue that shuffling folks to the subway is the answer, but the is doing a poor job of dealing with the increasing amount of people using it and don't tell me otherwise because I use the subway daily now to get around to my private sessions and I see the problems.  Constant delays, overcrowding, etc. It's troubling to say the least, so should we spend billions of dollars on subway projects that continue to be delayed or should we take some of that money and use it on other ways of getting around that can be implemented quickly?  With the 's track record, I'd vote for the later.  Now of course you'll argue that the has a stellar record and that there is nothing wrong with our subway system, but it's been shown through studies also that our system is fragile.  Hurricane Sandy was a perfect example.

 

Comparing Staten Island to the Rockaways is apples and oranges. Staten Island is a large area with a large commuting population, fairly dense neighborhoods (or, at the very least, denser than most suburban areas) outside of the West Shore, and has abandoned rights of way for rail lines. The Rockaways is a set of small, geographically isolated communities that aren't very large at all, with a large amount of existing transport options. A borough of 500,000 has way more potential than a three-block wide peninsula that is completely within the zone 1 flooding boundary.

 

Also, if anything, Sandy showed how resilient the MTA was. In fact, the MTA was actually up and ready to go fairly early on, but Lower Manhattan lost all of its power thanks to Con Ed and Verizon. Hurricane Sandy was also the only time in recent memory where the MTA actually polled a majority approval rating (because transit is a fairly thankless business, and you just want to get where you're going.) The Rockaways were also completely devastated by the storm due to its location within Zone 1, so I'm sure that an express bus would be the least of their worries...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Comparing Staten Island to the Rockaways is apples and oranges. Staten Island is a large area with a large commuting population, fairly dense neighborhoods (or, at the very least, denser than most suburban areas) outside of the West Shore, and has abandoned rights of way for rail lines. The Rockaways is a set of small, geographically isolated communities that aren't very large at all, with a large amount of existing transport options. A borough of 500,000 has way more potential than a three-block wide peninsula that is completely within the zone 1 flooding boundary.

 

Also, if anything, Sandy showed how resilient the MTA was. In fact, the MTA was actually up and ready to go fairly early on, but Lower Manhattan lost all of its power thanks to Con Ed and Verizon. Hurricane Sandy was also the only time in recent memory where the MTA actually polled a majority approval rating (because transit is a fairly thankless business, and you just want to get where you're going.) The Rockaways were also completely devastated by the storm due to its location within Zone 1, so I'm sure that an express bus would be the least of their worries...

Give me a break... Staten Island is pretty isolated also last I checked and the only reason it seems "denser" is due to overbuilding on the island which is why many are leaving or have already left (i.e. me being one of those former Staten Island residents that fleed) because the infrastructure there isn't made to have all of the cars that are currently on the roads... The streets are small, sidewalks are narrow and are not conducive to the current situation Staten Island finds itself in.  As for the Rockaways, having a large amount of options that require multiple transfers is a joke.  We're talking about direct service or at least service that minimizes the amount of transfers needed.  That's like saying Staten Island has a bunch of options (which it does) but they all require a gazillion transfers outside of the express buses. The transfers in effect can add on a ton of extra commute time.  It's more about providing reasonable commuting times than anything else, and adding a few express buses for the Rockaways would not break the bank.

 

As for the being resilient, yeah they did a good job after Sandy but they continue to fail miserably on many other things... line extension... Delayed... LIRR East Side project... Delayed and a good billion dollars over budget. SAS project... Delayed and also becoming more expensive by the day... I don't call that being resilient in any way shape or form. It's down right pathetic. 

[bobtehpanda]

Give me a break... Staten Island is pretty isolated also last I checked and the only reason it seems "denser" is due to overbuilding on the island which is why many are leaving or have already left (i.e. me being one of those former Staten Island residents that fleed) because the infrastructure there isn't made to have all of the cars that are currently on the roads... The streets are small, sidewalks are narrow and are not conducive to the current situation Staten Island finds itself in.  As for the Rockaways, having a large amount of options that require multiple transfers is a joke.  We're talking about direct service or at least service that minimizes the amount of transfers needed.  That's like saying Staten Island has a bunch of options (which it does) but they all require a gazillion transfers outside of the express buses. The transfers in effect can add on a ton of extra commute time.  It's more about providing reasonable commuting times than anything else, and adding a few express buses for the Rockaways would not break the bank.

 

As for the being resilient, yeah they did a good job after Sandy but they continue to fail miserably on many other things... line extension... Delayed... LIRR East Side project... Delayed and a good billion dollars over budget. SAS project... Delayed and also becoming more expensive by the day... I don't call that being resilient in any way shape or form. It's down right pathetic. 

New construction and resilience are two completely different things (and the 7 Line Extension only really exists because Bloomberg wanted an Olympics that he didn't end up getting).

 

The overbuilding is exactly why Staten Island can support its diverse express bus options (and its geographic isolation means that building brand new tunnel at today's prices is poor value for money). The Rockaways has no overbuilding to speak of (unless if maybe you count NYCHA, but that's a stretch), so it doesn't have enough people to support ever more service. The ferry takes you directly to Wall St and Williamsburg (and you'll still have a Metrocard transfer). The express bus already serves Midtown and Midtown East, and the gets you to 8th Avenue (and with simple transfers gets you to the East Side). What options are they lacking, exactly?

[Vistausss]

Light rail is being considered for other parts of Staten Island.

 

So? My point is that SI is not connected to the city at all by rail so that makes it easier to get LRT working there, no matter if it's SIR conversion or a new line.

The ferry takes you directly to Wall St and Williamsburg (and you'll still have a Metrocard transfer). The express bus already serves Midtown and Midtown East, and the gets you to 8th Avenue (and with simple transfers gets you to the East Side). What options are they lacking, exactly?

 

Don't forget LIRR. I know, more expensive and stuff but they do have the option. And using that they can easily reach Queens and the rest of LI. And NICE also serves Far Rockaway.

 

So yes: subway, ferry, express bus, NICE, LIRR... plenty of options if you ask me.

[Far Rock Depot]

 

 

If $6.00 is too expensive why do they have any QM16 or QM17 service at all? Apparently some folks don't seem to agree with you.

 

 

Some......but that's my point. as a former QM17 rider under both Green Lines and the MTA, there's not enough demand for service outside of its current trips. Trips were added by the MTA to honestly serve the Woodhaven/cross bay riders and being one who frequently rode it-untill the fare got too high- I can tell you that there's really not many riders using it in and out of rockaway. most riders are along woodhaven/cross bay Blvd. especially in the afternoon rush. And those 'some (rockaway) folks' who can afford it.....are the 5 to 10 per bus on average (if that many). And I recall a lot of morning regulars who opted for the QBL to the Q53 for their trip home making them one way commuters on the QM's. Basically, the majority of the Rockaway QM trips are paid for by the mainland crowd. Not the rockaway riders. trust me on this.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Far Rock Depot]

 

Light rail is being considered for other parts of Staten Island.

 

 

 

So? My point is that SI is not connected to the city at all by rail so that makes it easier to get LRT working there, no matter if it's SIR conversion or a new line.

 

 

The ferry takes you directly to Wall St and Williamsburg (and you'll still have a Metrocard transfer). The express bus already serves Midtown and Midtown East, and the gets you to 8th Avenue (and with simple transfers gets you to the East Side). What options are they lacking, exactly?

 

 

 

Don't forget LIRR. I know, more expensive and stuff but they do have the option. And using that they can easily reach Queens and the rest of LI. And NICE also serves Far Rockaway.

 

So yes: subway, ferry, express bus, NICE, LIRR... plenty of options if you ask me.

 

the lirr takes justbas long to reach manhattan especially since the majority of trips go to brooklyn requiring a transfer at jamaica for penn station. and once again, there's only a handful of riders boarding at far rock since the only portion of the line within rockaway is the station and lay up tracks. you're basically taking a subway or bus and walking a few blocks just to get to the lirr. when trying to reach manhattan, NICE is not an option. all of whatbyou stated may be options on getting out of the rockaways, but let's focus on the primary destinations of most rockaway residents. Those who want to easily reach the rest of queens takes the 52/53 or the 113.

 

the real main issue about commuting in and out of rockaway isn't the options as most of you here keep pointing out. Its the TIME it takes! an hour or more. and an hour is a blessing. an hour and a half is average.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

So? My point is that SI is not connected to the city at all by rail so that makes it easier to get LRT working there, no matter if it's SIR conversion or a new line.

 

 

Don't forget LIRR. I know, more expensive and stuff but they do have the option. And using that they can easily reach Queens and the rest of LI. And NICE also serves Far Rockaway.

 

So yes: subway, ferry, express bus, NICE, LIRR... plenty of options if you ask me.

Yes, all of which require transfers...

 

Some......but that's my point. as a former QM17 rider under both Green Lines and the MTA, there's not enough demand for service outside of its current trips. Trips were added by the MTA to honestly serve the Woodhaven/cross bay riders and being one who frequently rode it-untill the fare got too high- I can tell you that there's really not many riders using it in and out of rockaway. most riders are along woodhaven/cross bay Blvd. especially in the afternoon rush. And those 'some (rockaway) folks' who can afford it.....are the 5 to 10 per bus on average (if that many). And I recall a lot of morning regulars who opted for the QBL to the Q53 for their trip home making them one way commuters on the QM's. Basically, the majority of the Rockaway QM trips are paid for by the mainland crowd. Not the rockaway riders. trust me on this. Sent from my BlackBerry PlayBook using Tapatalk

Well the Rockaways also includes places like Neoponsit and so on and those areas aren't exactly poor, so how do those people get to and from work??  Drive into Manhattan every day?!?

 

 

New construction and resilience are two completely different things (and the 7 Line Extension only really exists because Bloomberg wanted an Olympics that he didn't end up getting).

 

The overbuilding is exactly why Staten Island can support its diverse express bus options (and its geographic isolation means that building brand new tunnel at today's prices is poor value for money). The Rockaways has no overbuilding to speak of (unless if maybe you count NYCHA, but that's a stretch), so it doesn't have enough people to support ever more service. The ferry takes you directly to Wall St and Williamsburg (and you'll still have a Metrocard transfer). The express bus already serves Midtown and Midtown East, and the   gets you to 8th Avenue (and with simple transfers gets you to the East Side). What options are they lacking, exactly?

lol... They could support it before the overbuilding... Now they need more and more express bus service...

 

As for the , all that has to be pointed to is the last few weeks... Rail service has been a disaster... Now they knew that there was the Rangers vs Islanders game last night and that the would be packed... Train service was backed up like crazy... and trains were a mess and there were far and few trains around...

[Vistausss]

@Far Rock: Perhaps you need to re-read my post. I said they can use the LIRR and NICE to reach QUEENS. I never said Manhattan. I also never said that Queens is the primary destination, I just added to bob's list what options people from the Rockaways have to leave the Rockaways. At least they have the option to reach Queens. Not every peninsula/neighbourhood has a ferry, LIRR, NICE, Bus, Express Bus *and* subway so IMHO the Rockaways is served pretty darn good if you ask me.

[yardlet6]

People living in Southeast Queens rarely take the express buses. Most of the peolple living in that area tend to take the local bus or limited stop service to Jamaica and transfer for the E,J,Z at Archer Avenue, or the F at Hillside Avenue. The express buses are infrequent and run parallel to most of the local buses in the area.

Quite a few people take the southeast Queens expresses. I take the QM21. It could have more runs because it runs every half hour though.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Quite a few people take the southeast Queens expresses. I take the QM21. It could have more runs because it runs every half hour though.

It had more service but was cut because of low ridership.  I see QM21's at various hours and it seems as if there's a few stops that are big generators like 23rd and Park but others not so much.

[AndrewJC]

1) Yeah and? That has nothing to do with them wanting other transportation options.  You act as if having a subway means that it's the end all be all.  Plenty of communities have subway service but they're still underserved because their subway is either only local or serves limited areas or can't run as frequently as it should.

 

2) Light rail has been proposed for Staten Island, hence why it was mentioned.  Also, the subway system is currently under a huge amount of stress.  Folks along the for example use the subway as their primary means of getting around and yet they're being encouraged to use the ferry where possible.  Why? Because the can't handle all of the people on the line.  Your mentality is so flawed.  It would be one thing to argue that shuffling folks to the subway is the answer, but the is doing a poor job of dealing with the increasing amount of people using it and don't tell me otherwise because I use the subway daily now to get around to my private sessions and I see the problems.  Constant delays, overcrowding, etc. It's troubling to say the least, so should we spend billions of dollars on subway projects that continue to be delayed or should we take some of that money and use it on other ways of getting around that can be implemented quickly?  With the 's track record, I'd vote for the later.  Now of course you'll argue that the has a stellar record and that there is nothing wrong with our subway system, but it's been shown through studies also that our system is fragile.  Hurricane Sandy was a perfect example.

 

As I have said multiple times, the Rockaways have subway service to Manhattan (express at all times except late nights), and the line to the Rockaways was rebuilt after Sandy at considerable expense. Most Rockaway residents who commute to Manhattan do so by subway - the number of people who choose to use the highly subsidized express bus and ferry options is tiny in comparison. Given the high subsidies for those services, it is poor policy to expand them further without first assessing whether it would make more sense to spend that money elsewhere - perhaps on improved subway or local or bus service, either serving the Rockaways or serving other parts of the city.

 

Light rail was considered and rejected in a study of how best to use the North Shore alignment. The basic reason light rail was rejected was that bus service would attract greater ridership - it would run on multiple routes before climbing onto a North Shore busway, thereby saving prospective riders a transfer.

 

The segment of East River Ferry ridership that boards at the Williamsburg and Greenpoint stops and would otherwise ride the L is tiny in comparison to the ridership of the L - by which I mean that, if the ERF were to disappear tomorrow and all of its ridership would disperse onto the subway, the increase in ridership would not be noticeable. Now, the subsidy to the ERF is actually quite low, more in line with the subsidy to a local bus than to an express bus (this was a surprise to me), and I don't object to its operation. But trying to reduce subway crowding by running buses and ferries is like trying to drain a flooded Montague tube with a thimble.

 

Buses could not possibly handle more than a tiny fraction of the subway ridership into and out of the Manhattan CBD. A subway system, however, requires ongoing investment to keep its physical plant in a state of good repair. You've been seeing the effects of underinvestment - the signals on much of the IND, for instance, are original to the 1930's, and the signals on parts of the Flushing line are even older (hence the project to replace them with CBTC).

 

Last I checked, the MTA didn't cause Hurricane Sandy. That most of the system was up and running under a week after the storm - and would have been back even sooner if Con Ed had restored power to lower Manhattan earlier - was downright incredible. The steady platoon of hundreds of crush loaded buses running between Brooklyn and Manhattan could still not provide enough capacity to handle anywhere near the loads normally carried by the subway. If you think the subway is overcrowded, then trying to push people onto buses would only make the situation worse.

 

 

Yes, all of which require transfers...

 

Well the Rockaways also includes places like Neoponsit and so on and those areas aren't exactly poor, so how do those people get to and from work??  Drive into Manhattan every day?!?

 

 

lol... They could support it before the overbuilding... Now they need more and more express bus service...

 

As for the , all that has to be pointed to is the last few weeks... Rail service has been a disaster... Now they knew that there was the Rangers vs Islanders game last night and that the would be packed... Train service was backed up like crazy... and trains were a mess and there were far and few trains around...

 

 

The A has direct service to Manhattan at all times from the busier side of the Rockaways and during rush hours from the less-busy side.

 

I suspect that most Neponsit residents who commute to Manhattan take the local bus to the subway (A or 2/5). Not everybody who rides the subway is poor, you know.

 

It would take 25 express buses to carry the load of one single crowded D train. When we're talking crowded trains, buses simply can't substitute.