M Train Service to Middle Village

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Transit is like real estate, in that it is all about location, location, location. Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil are fairly heavily built up areas that have a wide range of housing options, where most of the population has moved in from the city, and is thus very easy to serve with transit.

 

The Rockaways are a geographically isolated area that, outside of the NYCHA developed areas, is mostly single family bungalows, and the peninsula is never more than three avenue blocks wide. Most of the people there (once again, outside of NYCHA housing) moved there specifically to be isolated, and also have mindsets more similar to the NIMBY crowd in Nassau. Coupled with the fact that the area depopulated in the wake of Sandy (try getting flood insurance there now and see how far that gets you), the area simply does not have enough people to justify more service. They've already got it better than most areas of the city; ferry, frequent local bus services, subway, and LIRR. Besides, the point of the express bus system is to serve areas that don't have subway service so that transfers are reduced, as you have pointed out many times.

Yeah but the commute is long though and if that's the case then why do they get the current QM16 and QM17 express buses iif they have so many options?  For the record, while many Upper West and Upper East Siders move to Riverdale, Riverdale is also fairly isolated, particularly the more expensive parts.  We have some of the highest elevations here and the areas are very hilly.  We have good transportation here because the residents fought for it.  I in fact met the lady that helped to start express bus service not only in Riverdale but across the city when waiting for the BxM1 one morning.  She said because Riverdale is in a two fair zone, she got together with a group of others going back to 1959 or so and petitioned for express bus service.  Then other communities started making the same argument about multiple fare zones, long commutes and the like and started petitioning for express bus service... Too bad I normally don't take the BxM1 at that time of the day, but if I see her again I'll chat with her because we were talking about how more of us here want to be involved in the transportation situation.  I will say that we are pro-transit here and even the snobs will use Metro-North or the express bus because since many of them are Manhattanites that move here, they're used to it and move here for the mixture of suburban living with a touch of urbanness, which is unique to the city.

[Fresh Pond]

Is that you Q90, long time no see...

[bobtehpanda]

Yeah but the commute is long though and if that's the case then why do they get the current QM16 and QM17 express buses iif they have so many options?  For the record, while many Upper West and Upper East Siders move to Riverdale, Riverdale is also fairly isolated, particularly the more expensive parts.  We have some of the highest elevations here and the areas are very hilly.  We have good transportation here because the residents fought for it.  I in fact met the lady that helped to start express bus service not only in Riverdale but across the city when waiting for the BxM1 one morning.  She said because Riverdale is in a two fair zone, she got together with a group of others going back to 1959 or so and petitioned for express bus service.  Then other communities started making the same argument about multiple fare zones, long commutes and the like and started petitioning for express bus service... Too bad I normally don't take the BxM1 at that time of the day, but if I see her again I'll chat with her because we were talking about how more of us here want to be involved in the transportation situation.  I will say that we are pro-transit here and even the snobs will use Metro-North or the express bus because since many of them are Manhattanites that move here, they're used to it and move here for the mixture of suburban living with a touch of urbanness, which is unique to the city.

 

They probably exist for historical reasons; keep in mind that a Rockaways trip on the subway was double fare until Metrocard and Giuliani.

 

Now that the Rockaways is single fare (and has a variety of options to get off the peninsula, from the Q35 to Flatbush/Brooklyn College, the Q53 to Rego Park and Woodside, the Q22 running down its length, the Q113 to Jamaica, the Rockaway Ferry that is stopping in Bay Ridge (and costs the city somewhere in the double digits per rider in subsidy), the Rockaway , the , and the Long Island Rail Road at its eastern end, that argument is largely irrelevant in an area that has a plethora of cheap, quick options (and the ferry is actually cheaper than the subway)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They probably exist for historical reasons; keep in mind that a Rockaways trip on the subway was double fare until Metrocard and Giuliani.

 

Now that the Rockaways is single fare (and has a variety of options to get off the peninsula, from the Q35 to Flatbush/Brooklyn College, the Q53 to Rego Park and Woodside, the Q22 running down its length, the Q113 to Jamaica, the Rockaway Ferry that is stopping in Bay Ridge (and costs the city somewhere in the double digits per rider in subsidy), the Rockaway , the , and the Long Island Rail Road at its eastern end, that argument is largely irrelevant in an area that has a plethora of cheap, quick options (and the ferry is actually cheaper than the subway)

Is that right? I think that's great...

[Vistausss]

Transit is like real estate, in that it is all about location, location, location. Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil are fairly heavily built up areas that have a wide range of housing options, where most of the population has moved in from the city, and is thus very easy to serve with transit.

 

The Rockaways are a geographically isolated area that, outside of the NYCHA developed areas, is mostly single family bungalows, and the peninsula is never more than three avenue blocks wide. Most of the people there (once again, outside of NYCHA housing) moved there specifically to be isolated, and also have mindsets more similar to the NIMBY crowd in Nassau. Coupled with the fact that the area depopulated in the wake of Sandy (try getting flood insurance there now and see how far that gets you), the area simply does not have enough people to justify more service. They've already got it better than most areas of the city; ferry, frequent local bus services, subway, and LIRR. Besides, the point of the express bus system is to serve areas that don't have subway service so that transfers are reduced, as you have pointed out many times.

 

Makes you wonder how the Rockaways would ve developed had the LIRR kept the Rockaway branch (I mean, that they d still use the ROW to serve the areas the now serves)...

 

One thing there is though: if the people from Roxbury and Breezy Point wouldn't have isolated themselves, the Rockaways would've been much more populated now because they did build big apartment complexes back in the day... which got torn down after heavy resistance. I'm not saying they weren't right to do so, just sayin' that it would look different down there had they not resisted it...

[AndrewJC]

It does seem to work on the G.O.s. It might not be an ideal long term situation (again, SAS would be better), but it's better than trying to turn them at W4th, which was the point. 

 

The F is typically reduced to a 12 minute headway when the M is turning at 57th. I certainly don't think we want that every single weekend.

 

There is only one weekend extension of the M that makes any possible sense at all as a regular operation. If the West 4th Street interlocking work is going to force the D to run southbound via 8th - which requires the D to run a split operation - on a regular basis, it might make sense to run the M to 205th to replace the north segment of the D every weekend. However, the big car shuffle at the beginning and end of every weekend - R68's can't run between Essex and Metropolitan - probably rules this out.

 

All I stated was what there was a push for.... Perhaps people would use new services down there if they didn't involve a lot of transfers.  In any event the point was that the folks down there want ferry service.  The consensus is that it would cut down on transfers and commute times and also provide an alternative mode of transportation to an area that is far from Manhattan and lacks direct options outside of the express bus.

 

Transit use in the Rockaways, especially on the Rock Park side, is very low because the demand for transit is very low. There is direct A service during rush hours; outside of rush hours, there is simply no need for it.

 

A small number of people make use of an exceptionally heavily subsidized ferry service, and they whine whenever the subsidy is about to expire. No surprise there. But might not there be a better place to spend those subsidy dollars?

[Far Rock Depot]

on the topic of weekend M service, the upcoming essex st service is good as is imho. take into effect weekend g.o.'s-which many here seem to forget about-and complicated switch relay moves-which many here also seem to think is a breeze-essex st is a viable option. look at the bigger picture and please stop thinking "one-seat ride"

 

as far as the rockaways are concerned, andrewjc hits it right on the nose. btw, who in rock park is being vocal about more transit service? this is news to me. as far as I know, all of rockaway was asking for, if anything, faster service to manhattan. $6.00 for the qm16/17 is too expensive. the rock park branch sees the lowest amout of passengers in the entire system. does any of you who make these proposals (c to lefferts, full time rock park, increased far rock service,etc) actually live or even frequent the rockaways?? (fanning the H doesn't count btw). take it from a former 20+year resident who still has family there.......there's not much that can be currently done to improve service in and out of rockaway aside from building-or rebuilding-something that will cost 7 figures and more.

 

Sent from my BlackBerry PlayBook using Tapatalk

[Wallyhorse]

It does seem to work on the G.O.s. It might not be an ideal long term situation (again, SAS would be better), but it's better than trying to turn them at W4th, which was the point. 

When the SAS comes in, then perhaps late nights and weekends you could have the run its regular route to 47-50, then via the to Lexington Avenue and then with the to 96th-2nd.  This would supplement service to the UES, arguably the most densely populated part of NYC late nights and weekends.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

on the topic of weekend M service, the upcoming essex st service is good as is imho. take into effect weekend g.o.'s-which many here seem to forget about-and complicated switch relay moves-which many here also seem to think is a breeze-essex st is a viable option. look at the bigger picture and please stop thinking "one-seat ride" as far as the rockaways are concerned, andrewjc hits it right on the nose. btw, who in rock park is being vocal about more transit service? this is news to me. as far as I know, all of rockaway was asking for, if anything, faster service to manhattan. $6.00 for the qm16/17 is too expensive. the rock park branch sees the lowest amout of passengers in the entire system. does any of you who make these proposals (c to lefferts, full time rock park, increased far rock service,etc) actually live or even frequent the rockaways?? (fanning the H doesn't count btw). take it from a former 20+year resident who still has family there.......there's not much that can be currently done to improve service in and out of rockaway aside from building-or rebuilding-something that will cost 7 figures and more. Sent from my BlackBerry PlayBook using Tapatalk

If $6.00 is too expensive why do they have any QM16 or QM17 service at all? Apparently some folks don't seem to agree with you.

 

 

Transit use in the Rockaways, especially on the Rock Park side, is very low because the demand for transit is very low. There is direct A service during rush hours; outside of rush hours, there is simply no need for it.

 

A small number of people make use of an exceptionally heavily subsidized ferry service, and they whine whenever the subsidy is about to expire. No surprise there. But might not there be a better place to spend those subsidy dollars?

Your attitude about the situation isn't shocking.... Everything is always too expensive or the people wanting more service just complain too much.  With that set up, we would never expand anything transit related because the complaint would be that it's too expensive.  I suppose you feel the same about SAS too then...

[bobtehpanda]

Is that right? I think that's great...

 

The ferry is $2, but usage is still not that high (you don't get a metrocard transfer, but $2 for Rockaways-Wall St in an hour is pretty great)

 

The express bus would cost three times as much, so I doubt a new route would gain many riders (as opposed to poaching them from the other routes). What's wrong with what they have now? (If the answer is that they don't serve Roxbury and Breezy Point, that's because those areas specifically do not want anything to do with New York, similar to how NST is not going to let express buses within their property.)

 

The main point, however, is that the Rockaways is no longer a two-fare zone and shouldn't really be considered "isolated", since the only two-transfer trips are out of the Rockaways (meaning, if you take the Q22 to the Q35 to Flatbush/Brooklyn College, that's one fare; I'm not sure if that was just strictly post-Sandy, or if that still applies today)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The ferry is $2, but usage is still not that high (you don't get a metrocard transfer, but $2 for Rockaways-Wall St in an hour is pretty great)

 

The express bus would cost three times as much, so I doubt a new route would gain many riders (as opposed to poaching them from the other routes). What's wrong with what they have now? (If the answer is that they don't serve Roxbury and Breezy Point, that's because those areas specifically do not want anything to do with New York, similar to how NST is not going to let express buses within their property.)

 

The main point, however, is that the Rockaways is no longer a two-fare zone and shouldn't really be considered "isolated", since the only two-transfer trips are out of the Rockaways (meaning, if you take the Q22 to the Q35 to Flatbush/Brooklyn College, that's one fare; I'm not sure if that was just strictly post-Sandy, or if that still applies today)

What they have now is fine. I would probably just extend their express bus service to run longer.

[Vistausss]

The ferry is $2, but usage is still not that high (you don't get a metrocard transfer, but $2 for Rockaways-Wall St in an hour is pretty great)

 

The express bus would cost three times as much, so I doubt a new route would gain many riders (as opposed to poaching them from the other routes). What's wrong with what they have now? (If the answer is that they don't serve Roxbury and Breezy Point, that's because those areas specifically do not want anything to do with New York, similar to how NST is not going to let express buses within their property.)

 

The main point, however, is that the Rockaways is no longer a two-fare zone and shouldn't really be considered "isolated", since the only two-transfer trips are out of the Rockaways (meaning, if you take the Q22 to the Q35 to Flatbush/Brooklyn College, that's one fare; I'm not sure if that was just strictly post-Sandy, or if that still applies today)

 

A new express bus wouldn t do any good indeed. *If* anything faster but not as expensive is needed, then they can always cut one of the express bus routes and put an LTD in its place. But only *if*...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A new express bus wouldn t do any good indeed. *If* anything faster but not as expensive is needed, then they can always cut one of the express bus routes and put an LTD in its place. But only *if*...

A limited in its place to where exactly?? 

[NY1635]

A new express bus wouldn t do any good indeed. *If* anything faster but not as expensive is needed, then they can always cut one of the express bus routes and put an LTD in its place. But only *if*...

 The local residents wouldn't like it if the MTA replaced express bus service with limited stop service to Manhattan. Express Bus service is supposed to be the faster alternative to take the local bus to the hub and transfer for a train to Manhattan. Unlike some of the express buses though, the QM16 and QM17 were originally owned by a Private Bus Company (I think Green Bus Lines) before being owned by the MTA.

[FRACertifyMotormen]

Work Program says OPTO for the Spring Pick..

 

With the Mikey going to Essex Street..

 

Now unless things change it will be OPTO..

Under the TA's own rules, which state no OPTO train can cross the East River, they cannot run it OPTO.  I hope the Union was notified on this!

[RTOMan]

 

Work Program says OPTO for the Spring Pick..

 

With the Mikey going to Essex Street..

 

Now unless things change it will be OPTO..

 

 

Under the TA's own rules, which state no OPTO train can cross the East River, they cannot run it OPTO. I hope the Union was notified on this!

 

You can message me that rule.. I had chats with a few folks and no one can find this rule.. I for one would love to see it as well there is a good debate going in about this at work. You do know the G line runs OPTO under a tube right?

[Vistausss]

 The local residents wouldn't like it if the MTA replaced express bus service with limited stop service to Manhattan. Express Bus service is supposed to be the faster alternative to take the local bus to the hub and transfer for a train to Manhattan. Unlike some of the express buses though, the QM16 and QM17 were originally owned by a Private Bus Company (I think Green Bus Lines) before being owned by the MTA.

 

This is a weird-ass subject. First people are saying few people take the Express Bus in the Rockaways because it s so expensive and then I say it *can* be replaced by an LTD *should* the need to do so arise and then all of a sudden people wouldnt like their express bus taken away?

 

Can someone put an end to this confusion? Is the Express Bus used by enough people or not? Because you guys contradict each other...

[bobtehpanda]

This is a weird-ass subject. First people are saying few people take the Express Bus in the Rockaways because it s so expensive and then I say it *can* be replaced by an LTD *should* the need to do so arise and then all of a sudden people wouldnt like their express bus taken away?

 

Can someone put an end to this confusion? Is the Express Bus used by enough people or not? Because you guys contradict each other...

 

The first part of the debate was not that the express buses in the Rockaways are lightly used, but that a third one would be overkill.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This is a weird-ass subject. First people are saying few people take the Express Bus in the Rockaways because it s so expensive and then I say it *can* be replaced by an LTD *should* the need to do so arise and then all of a sudden people wouldnt like their express bus taken away?

 

Can someone put an end to this confusion? Is the Express Bus used by enough people or not? Because you guys contradict each other...

 

 

The first part of the debate was not that the express buses in the Rockaways are lightly used, but that a third one would be overkill.

Yeah but who said anything about creating another route? All I said was just add more QM16 or QM17 trips OR you could extend the run times a bit longer.

[AndrewJC]

Your attitude about the situation isn't shocking.... Everything is always too expensive or the people wanting more service just complain too much.  With that set up, we would never expand anything transit related because the complaint would be that it's too expensive.  I suppose you feel the same about SAS too then...

 

On the contrary, I have no objection to spending a lot of money to serve a lot of people, and I have no objection to spending a little money to provide basic service to an area that would otherwise have nothing. But I have serious objections to spending a lot of money to spend a few people who already have service that merely isn't convenient enough for their tastes.

 

SAS will carry on each rush hour (and possibly off-peak) train more than the QM16 and QM17 carry in an entire day.

 

You can message me that rule.. I had chats with a few folks and no one can find this rule.. I for one would love to see it as well there is a good debate going in about this at work. You do know the G line runs OPTO under a tube right?

 

I agree - as far as I can tell, this supposed rule does not exist. Why would the Williamsburg Bridge be any different from the South Channel Bridge? And when OPTO on the L was shot down in 2005, I don't recall the East River tube being cited as an issue, only the train length.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On the contrary, I have no objection to spending a lot of money to serve a lot of people, and I have no objection to spending a little money to provide basic service to an area that would otherwise have nothing. But I have serious objections to spending a lot of money to spend a few people who already have service that merely isn't convenient enough for their tastes.

 

SAS will carry on each rush hour (and possibly off-peak) train more than the QM16 and QM17 carry in an entire day.

That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.  Comparing SAS service to QM16 and QM17 service which serve very different areas, with very different population sizes isn't even a comparison. Whether you like it or not, not every community needs or is situated to have subway service, and other services such as ferry service, light rail service or express bus service makes more sense.  You are biased against areas that aren't densely populated.  

 

Your attitude is to hell with neighborhoods with smaller populations because they don't have transportation needs.  They shouldn't get city services but yet I'm sure you don't object to them paying their fair share in taxes.  Typical attitude.

[Vistausss]

That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.  Comparing SAS service to QM16 and QM17 service which serve very different areas, with very different population sizes isn't even a comparison. Whether you like it or not, not every community needs or is situated to have subway service, and other services such as ferry service, light rail service or express bus service makes more sense.  You are biased against areas that aren't densely populated.  

 

Your attitude is to hell with neighborhoods with smaller populations because they don't have transportation needs.  They shouldn't get city services but yet I'm sure you don't object to them paying their fair share in taxes.  Typical attitude.

 

And your attitude is just to belittle AndrewJC... I suggest you to re-read his post because I'm understanding something entirely different out of his post than you...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And your attitude is just to belittle AndrewJC... I suggest you to re-read his post because I'm understanding something entirely different out of his post than you...

I read it very well... The question is what does he define as "a little" and "a lot" (self-rhetorical question)...  His past posts (in general, not in this thread) have clarified in my mind what his idea of a lot and a little is.  He takes issues with providing ferry service, light rail service and express bus service, which I would consider "basic necessities" in certain neighborhoods where subways either aren't a possibility or make no sense, while he doesn't. 

[FRACertifyMotormen]

You can message me that rule.. I had chats with a few folks and no one can find this rule.. I for one would love to see it as well there is a good debate going in about this at work. You do know the G line runs OPTO under a tube right?

In the contract, it states no OPTO service can cross the East River.  The G doesn't, and the tube is very short under Newtown Creek.  The OPTO L was shot down on both counts.  The South Channel of Jamaica Bay isn't as wide as the East River. NOW, if they were to extend the Rockawat Park shuttle to Euclid Avenue, there would have to be a conductor on it, since the north channel is too wide.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Comparing the SAS to the QM16/QM17 ridership in one day is like comparing apples to oranges. First off, the SAS covers a whole larger area (and denser as mentioned), than the QM16/QM17. Second, the QM16/QM17 run during rush hours only, where SAS runs 24/7, which is an unfair comparison, to say the very least. Third of all, the QM16/QM17 focus on only one area, whereas the SAS connects multiple areas. On top of that, subway ridership is almost always higher than the bus alternative ridership.