Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Caelestor]

Exactly. But I could still see the as popular if it would be easily extended past Hanover Sq into Brooklyn via Montague and 4th Avenue, or maybe some kind of Sea Beach Express.

 

The long-term plan is to run the onto the Fulton St Line via Court St. The would take over all local service, and the would run express to Euclid.

[RR503]

I hope stays local. Lets people at all the bklyn lcl stops have a 1 seat ride to Western Manhattan. The only forseeable problem would be the merge at Hoyt Schermerhorn. 

 

Anyway, this is m a n y years down the road. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by RR503

[Wallyhorse]

Not happening. Real estate will stop that in its tracks...

 

Yes, but this time I said 3rd Avenue Line, NOT EL:  I suspect if there is the kind of building that some think will happen does, something will have to give there.

Except that's not the issue we're looking to solve. We're looking to find the most efficient and cost-effective way to provide more service to the SAS, without over-serving or delaying the existing Broadway and 6th Ave services in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

He doesn't. And yes, his plan will create more delays and require trains to run less frequently, not more. And yes, people do like the current Southern Division setup that's been in place since 2004. A good thing, given that they had to put up with 18 years of service diversions, because the City failed to properly maintain the Manhattan Bridge for decades prior to 1986.

 

However, the current setup doesn't make it very easy to run the at 19 tph in order to accommodate the crowds on 2nd Ave. This is because there isn't a suitable place to short-turn trains in Manhattan or on the Brighton Line without fouling up the other services the must interact with, especially during rush hours. There is one silver lining in Wally's plan and that is the suggestion to run the over the West End Line. Because then, you could short-turn some trains at 9th Ave or Bay Pkwy and accommodate the crowds using SAS now as well as those who will when Phase 2 is up and running. The problem with rerouting the to West End is that the would have to go somewhere else. West End ridership doesn't warrant two full time services. So either the has to go somewhere else in south Brooklyn, such as the Brighton Local. Or another service has to be implemented to provide the extra SAS service that the current via Brighton Local cannot. Swapping the and , allows the to stay just the way it is now and will cut down on switching delays between DeKalb and the Manhattan Bridge, which would allow trains to run more frequently than they do now and would make it possible to operate short-turn trains.

 

Of course I'm fully aware that putting the back on the Brighton Line will create two major issues. One would be that Brighton would only have direct service to the 6th Ave Line only. The other issue, which would result from the first, would require significantly more riders to transfer for Broadway or 6th Ave at Atlantic or DeKalb, potentially overwhelming those two stations. The MTA would need to be able to expand the Atlantic-Barclays complex to be able to handle the larger crowds. If that's not possible (lack of underground space/egress?), then either it'll have to be extra service or a separate supplemental service to accommodate the increased SAS crowds.

Which is why after that I looked at doing it in a much more simple way: Putting in a punch box on the (railroad south) platform at 5th Avenue/59th-60th Street that would allow the to stay on the express track to 57th-7th Avenue (going north) and THEN switch go to the 60th Street tunnel track while going south, come in on the express track at 57/7.  THAT by itself would likely do a lot without the other changes.

 

Of course, you could do that as well by having the and switch Queens terminals (with the going back to a 24/7 line) and have the go via 63rd to Jamaica and stop at 21st-Queensbridge instead of Queens Plaza, but then you have the same issues with the that led to me looking at the three-way switch in the first place. 

 

There are simply a lot of issues with being able have more service on the .

Edited February 2, 2017 by Wallyhorse

[Around the Horn]

Yes, but this time I said 3rd Avenue Line, NOT EL: I suspect if there is the kind of building that some think will happen does, something will have to give there.

Eh, while I do see the 2nd Avenue Subway getting good ridership in Manhattan, I don't see it getting more than 60,120 passengers an hour peak times. 15 trains plus 15 trains per hour should definitely be enough for Midtown East in addition to existing alternatives: and the .

[agar io]

If we're talking SAS Phase 3 and Queens Bypass, I'd also like to see a three-stop spur off the QBL to 108 St, Main St, and Kissena Blvd/Queens College. The spur would go off the QBL local and express tracks. The Woodhaven Blvd station could be converted to an express station.

 

Now the questions are:

• Which services go QBL local to 71 Av?
• Which services go QBL express?
• Which services go QBL super-express?
• Which services split off the QBL at Woodhaven?

This is also a chance for all you guys asking for the to be re-extended to actually extend the . After CBTC installation is complete, you can fit up to 78 tph collectively on the QBL and bypass: 32 tph on each of the local and express tracks west of Woodhaven, plus 14 on the bypass, merging with the up-to-16 tph that use both 63rd and QBL express. Big improvement from the 45-50 tph using the QBL now.

(Assuming, of course, that there are theoretically extra cars available for this extension.)

[RR503]

If QBL bypass happens, 2nd Ave shouldn't get to use it. Reroute the or there, because connections from those lines are *so* much better than from 2nd Ave. The can use the freed up express slots on normal QBL

[CenSin]

If QBL bypass happens, 2nd Ave shouldn't get to use it. Reroute the or there, because connections from those lines are *so* much better than from 2nd Ave. The can use the freed up express slots on normal QBL

Because the 2 Avenue Line is not the central line in Manhattan. For connections, I think the best you can get is via Broadway followed by 6 Avenue and then 8 Avenue. 2 Avenue may get a bunch of token connections, but they will be long walks and not convenient.

[bobtehpanda]

If we're talking SAS Phase 3 and Queens Bypass, I'd also like to see a three-stop spur off the QBL to 108 St, Main St, and Kissena Blvd/Queens College. The spur would go off the QBL local and express tracks. The Woodhaven Blvd station could be converted to an express station.

 

Now the questions are:

• Which services go QBL local to 71 Av?
• Which services go QBL express?
• Which services go QBL super-express?
• Which services split off the QBL at Woodhaven?

This is also a chance for all you guys asking for the to be re-extended to actually extend the . After CBTC installation is complete, you can fit up to 78 tph collectively on the QBL and bypass: 32 tph on each of the local and express tracks west of Woodhaven, plus 14 on the bypass, merging with the up-to-16 tph that use both 63rd and QBL express. Big improvement from the 45-50 tph using the QBL now.

(Assuming, of course, that there are theoretically extra cars available for this extension.)

 

I'm going to assume you're talking about an extension via HHE. If anything the priority for a local extension should be RBB, since it has a lower cost/rider for sure. The services would thus be divided as follows.

 

QBL local: local train to 71st, local train to Howard Beach via RBB (doesn't really matter which one)

QBL express: express all the way to 179 St and beyond, express to Archer Av and beyond

Bypass: turquoise running from Second Av via 63rd St to 179 St, using local QBL tracks east of Forest Hills

 

This way the no longer has to merge onto the local tracks east of Forest Hills, and the service patterns are relatively neat and tidy.

Edited February 2, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[BayParkwayW]

The long-term plan is to run the onto the Fulton St Line via Court St. The would take over all local service, and the would run express to Euclid.

If we implement a turquoise , then we could have:

Fulton Exp to Far Rockaway

Fulton Lcl to Lefferts Blvd

Fulton Exp to Rockaway Park-Beach 116

Fulton Lcl to Euclid Avenue

Rockaway Shuttle-All Times Except Nights

Edited February 2, 2017 by BayParkwayW

[CenSin]

QBL local: local train to 71st, local train to Howard Beach via RBB (doesn't really matter which one)

QBL express: express all the way to 179 St and beyond, express to Archer Av and beyond

Bypass: turquoise running from Second Av via 63rd St to 179 St, using local QBL tracks east of Forest Hills

Neat and tidy… but the local rises two ranks to become a super-express? LMAO. Someone coming from Jamaica–179 Street will have a choice of local/super-express or regular express—neither of which will clearly save commute time over the other.

Edited February 2, 2017 by CenSin

[bobtehpanda]

Neat and tidy… but the local rises two ranks to become a super-express? LMAO. Someone coming from Jamaica–179 Street will have a choice of local/super-express or regular express—neither of which will clearly save commute time over the other.

 

Personally, I don't really like the idea of a Bypass as a super-express since it doesn't really divert people from stations west of Forest Hills, and the time savings would probably be minimal (after all, the Queens Blvd express only makes a single stop between Queensbridge and Forest Hills as it is).

 

I've always thought that, at the very least, a super-express should have a station at Woodside, and another one at Rego Park (which would be a transfer at the RBB).

[RR503]

I'm going to assume you're talking about an extension via HHE. If anything the priority for a local extension should be RBB, since it has a lower cost/rider for sure. The services would thus be divided as follows.

 

QBL local: local train to 71st, local train to Howard Beach via RBB (doesn't really matter which one)

QBL express: express all the way to 179 St and beyond, express to Archer Av and beyond

Bypass: turquoise running from Second Av via 63rd St to 179 St, using local QBL tracks east of Forest Hills

 

This way the no longer has to merge onto the local tracks east of Forest Hills, and the service patterns are relatively neat and tidy.

Agreed, but I say turquoise gets QBL Express, and runs via bypass. That way you aren't making the fastest trip the one with the worst connections. (Basically what I said above)

[Wallyhorse]

If we implement a turquoise , then we could have:

Fulton Exp to Far Rockaway

Fulton Lcl to Lefferts Blvd

Fulton Exp to Rockaway Park-Beach 116

Fulton Lcl to Euclid Avenue

Rockaway Shuttle-All Times Except Nights

If the does run via Fulton, the likely scenario would actually be:

 

Exp to Far Rockaway

Exp to Lefferts Boulevard

 Local to Euclid Avenue (late nights extended to Lefferts)

 

This works best because there would be no switching in Brooklyn.

 

If the RBB is built up, the that has been suggested could go to Rockaway Park.

[agar io]

If QBL bypass happens, 2nd Ave shouldn't get to use it. Reroute the or there, because connections from those lines are *so* much better than from 2nd Ave. The can use the freed up express slots on normal QBL

Agreed, but the bypass would only feed into the 63rd Connector, unless someone wants to build a huge flyunder from the bypass to the mainline QBL to Queens Plaza. It would be the . The  would go regular express all the way from 179 to Queensbridge then use the 2 Av Line.

 

I'm going to assume you're talking about an extension via HHE. If anything the priority for a local extension should be RBB, since it has a lower cost/rider for sure.

Yes, I do mean HHE, though RBB does seem busier. Since the already uses the RBB south of Rockaway Blvd, this can also be an opportunity to cut the to use only the Lefferts branch.

I'm not sure Rockaway riders want QBL local though...

[bobtehpanda]

Agreed, but the bypass would only feed into the 63rd Connector, unless someone wants to build a huge flyunder from the bypass to the mainline QBL to Queens Plaza. It would be the . The  would go regular express all the way from 179 to Queensbridge then use the 2 Av Line.

 

Yes, I do mean HHE, though RBB does seem busier. Since the already uses the RBB south of Rockaway Blvd, this can also be an opportunity to cut the to use only the Lefferts branch.

I'm not sure Rockaway riders want QBL local though...

 

Under my plan both the and turquoise use 63rd. The 53rd St tunnel's 6th Av service would be a local train, much like today.

 

Getting to midtown, QBL local would be much faster than the , which is pretty roundabout. Not to mention, the Q53 is very busy even though it's a bus->QBL local transfer; making it one seat and much faster should boost ridership even further.

 

I have always considered a conversion of Woodhaven Blvd to express to be necessary, with or without an extension, so riders from RBB could transfer there.

 

As far as Lefferts goes, I've always thought that long term, Fulton should be set up like this:

 

to Euclid Av via local

to Lefferts via express

to Howard Beach/Far Rockaway. Peak Howard Beach trains are extended to Rockaway Park.

 

In this context, terminating QBL locals at Howard Beach would be ideal.

Edited February 2, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[Around the Horn]

Agreed, but I say turquoise gets QBL Express, and runs via bypass. That way you aren't making the fastest trip the one with the worst connections. (Basically what I said above)

 

I would keep the    on QBL, for the connections they provide. The  would be the Bypass express to Midtown East, also stopping at Woodside.

[Union Tpke]

I would add a stop at Sunnyside to the Bypass. Transfers would be available to Queens Plaza.

[Caelestor]

I would add a stop at Sunnyside to the Bypass. Transfers would be available to Queens Plaza.

 

The original plans for the Bypass had two intermediary stops at Northern Blvd and Woodside. I'm uncertain about the status of the Northern Blvd / Queens Plaza stop since the 63 St Line was connected to the QBL where the station would have been. On the bypass itself, there's 4 potential station locations:

• Sunnyside (provisional): If the Sunnyside Yards are developed and/or the LIRR / MNR junction station is ever built, Sunnyside would serve them.
• Woodside - 61 St: Self-explanatory. Could serve as a decent terminal for the if the Bypass has to be shortened due to lack of funds.
• 51st Ave (provisional): If the Triboro RX is ever built, this stop would be the transfer to it. Might be worth building even without the Triboro RX.
• Woodhaven Blvd: Relief station for Woodhaven QBL, transfer station for the Rockaway Branch.

service would stay completely on the QBL express tracks outside of late nights. service is unchanged. service runs via the Bypass and runs local east of Forest Hills.

 

The Rockaway Branch itself should connect to both the QBL local tracks and the Bypass, with the latter being easier and faster to construct.

The preferred service would be an train from Rockaway Park via Woodside. Subsequently, Howard Beach would become more popular than Jamaica for subway riders due to the easier connection and the presence of both relatively fast Brooklyn/Downtown and Queens/Midtown service. However, it's unclear where the would run into Manhattan, so riders might have to do with a rerouted or service until that issue is cleared up.

[agar io]

I would add a stop at Sunnyside to the Bypass. Transfers would be available to Queens Plaza.

... I'm uncertain about the status of the Northern Blvd / Queens Plaza stop since the 63 St Line was connected to the QBL where the station would have been. On the bypass itself, there's 4 potential station locations:

• Sunnyside (provisional): If the Sunnyside Yards are developed and/or the LIRR / MNR junction station is ever built, Sunnyside would serve them.
• Woodside - 61 St: Self-explanatory. Could serve as a decent terminal for the   if the Bypass has to be shortened due to lack of funds.

Both good ideas. I think if the bypass were built, it should not be directly perpendicular to the QBL. It should curve northeast and run parallel to the QBL only at the 36 St station, where a transfer passageway can be built. Or, if it has a connection to Queens Plaza, the very western end of the bypass platform could connect to Queens Plaza station via passageway. The connection would be about as long as the connection from the  to the    at Court Sq.

 

I'd add the Woodside station too, but the 51 Av station would have low ridership, so it can be completed later as an infill station. Woodhaven Blvd might be a transit hub for the buses and an RBB spur, but it's a little far from QCM.

(51 Av is in the middle of an industrial area with typically 2-story houses, so that's why I suggest it be an infill station first.)

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Which is why after that I looked at doing it in a much more simple way: Putting in a punch box on the (railroad south) platform at 5th Avenue/59th-60th Street that would allow the to stay on the express track to 57th-7th Avenue (going north) and THEN switch go to the 60th Street tunnel track while going south, come in on the express track at 57/7. THAT by itself would likely do a lot without the other changes.

Of course, you could do that as well by having the and switch Queens terminals (with the going back to a 24/7 line) and have the go via 63rd to Jamaica and stop at 21st-Queensbridge instead of Queens Plaza, but then you have the same issues with the that led to me looking at the three-way switch in the first place.

Exactly what does any of this accomplish? By running the express all the way to 57th, you just move the switch from express to local from 34th to 57th. So trains save all of - at most - 30 seconds by skipping 49th St. Thirty seconds that will easily get eaten up if an or train gets to 57th first. Where is the advantage in doing this? And I really don't see any advantage in switching the and the back to their pre-1987 Queens terminals and rerouting the to the 63rd St tunnel. In fact, I see a big DIS-advantage in rerouting the via 63rd in that it would create merging delays at 36th St - northbound between the merging in with the and the merging in with the . Southbound, there would be delays if an and an get to 36th at the same time. And you lose the direct transfer between QBL and Lex that the currently provides. Again, where is the advantage in doing this? And you still haven't addressed how to provide additional service on the SAS to deal with the crowding there, which is what was being discussed before you once again weighed in on tearing up the subway map in south Brooklyn.

There are simply a lot of issues with being able have more service on the .

So in other words, you don't know how, yes? Edited February 2, 2017 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

I would keep the    on QBL, for the connections they provide. The  would be the Bypass express to Midtown East, also stopping at Woodside

That makes no sense. People using the bypass want connections too, which is why I think it would be much better to put 1 good connection train on the bypass (the ), one on the main QBL line (the ), and 2nd avenue trains (with eh connections/destinations) on the main QBL. Bypass passengers wanting to go to normal midtown stay on the or transfer to the at 63rd, and those wanting to go to Midtown East transfer to the at 21-Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island. Then you aren't screwing passengers on the (supposedly) faster line with mediocre destinations/transfers. 

 

Make sense? 

Edited February 2, 2017 by RR503

[Around the Horn]

That makes no sense. People using the bypass want connections too, which is why I think it would be much better to put 1 good connection train on the bypass (the ), one on the main QBL line (the ), and 2nd avenue trains (with eh connections/destinations) on the main QBL. Bypass passengers wanting to go to normal midtown stay on the or transfer to the at 63rd, and those wanting to go to Midtown East transfer to the at 21-Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island. Then you aren't screwing passengers on the (supposedly) faster line with mediocre destinations/transfers. 

 

Make sense? 

But then you are screwing over passengers at Roosevelt Avenue who transfer from the buses and the       to the   en masse. That is also the only transfer point between the    and  , without backtracking, under the current scenario.

 

The   can serve the local stations between 179 Street and 71 Avenue, with the  now running express all way to 179 Street, helping people who want a faster trip to/from their connecting bus there. Passengers can always connect across the platform at Kew Gardens between the    and  .

 

I keep the   on QBL proper because I think that more people at Jackson Heights would want 6th Avenue service than 2nd Avenue service. 

[bobtehpanda]

That makes no sense. People using the bypass want connections too, which is why I think it would be much better to put 1 good connection train on the bypass (the ), one on the main QBL line (the ), and 2nd avenue trains (with eh connections/destinations) on the main QBL. Bypass passengers wanting to go to normal midtown stay on the or transfer to the at 63rd, and those wanting to go to Midtown East transfer to the at 21-Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island. Then you aren't screwing passengers on the (supposedly) faster line with mediocre destinations/transfers. 

 

Make sense? 

 

Because switching is the slowest part of the right now, I'm inclined to prevent any sort of switching of a service from QBL local to QBL express.

 

Like I said, the bypass is not actually going to be faster unless we have significantly higher speed trains bought in the future. A difference of one or two stops is not a lot.

[RR503]

But then you are screwing over passengers at Roosevelt Avenue who transfer from the buses and the       to the   en masse. That is also the only transfer point between the    and  , without backtracking, under the current scenario.

 

The   can serve the local stations between 179 Street and 71 Avenue, with the  now running express all way to 179 Street, helping people who want a faster trip to/from their connecting bus there. Passengers can always connect across the platform at Kew Gardens between the    and  .

 

I keep the   on QBL proper because I think that more people at Jackson Heights would want 6th Avenue service than 2nd Avenue service. 

My problem is that the way you've set things up, QBL riders don't get easy 2nd avenue access, and QB bypass ones don't get good rest-of-manhattan access. Switch the and and you patch some of that up.

In response to your points:

QBL bypass will stop at 61-woodside, allowing riders service.

riders wanting 6th avenue can...stay on the . 

riders can either transfer to the or just stay on into Manhattan, as the is never *too* far from the 6th avenue lines. 

 

I see your point though. I will ruminate. 

[2Line1291]

I agree with having the trains on Queens Blvd Local/Express with the on the bypass. This way the main line would have the best of all worlds with 2nd, Broadway, 6th and 8th Ave access and also the would still share trackage with 3 lines verses 4 in the other plan. In this case my opinion is having the be Express and the be local to reduce local/Express track merging to a minimal but then I understand the concept of having a one seat ride