Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Reptile]

8 hours ago, mrsman said:

Reddit has some good pictures of a track bridge over teh 149th-GC station that is being used to facilitate construction of an elevator:

It led me to thinking about the possibilites of implementing similar track bridge along the 50th st station of the AC line in order to better incorporate deinterlining along CPW.  My comment on reddit is below:

 

 

Thank you for posting this picture as it allows us to see what is going on. It really gives more space to the station.

Add'l thoughts:

1) Could something like this be made permanent if new switches between express and local track were added just to the south of the station? IMO, the only reason to run any trains on express track is to make the merge with easier, will stop at 138th and will not, so it allows to merge into the stream of traffic behind a 4 if they both arrive at the same time.     

 

2) This rail bridge has given me other ideas in hypothetical plans. A de-interlining plan to have AC run express on CPW and BD run local.* This avoids merging issues at Columbus Circle. AC continue as the 8th Ave express while E runs as the sole 8th Ave local. AC continue toward the Cranberry tunnel and E terminates at WTC, thereby avoiding the merges at Canal St as well. This has one small problem with regards to no access to 50th st station, since both A and C would skip it on the 8th Av express tracks. But what if the 8th Ave local tracks were simply closed in the area (i.e. blocked from trains running through). This means that any Downtown train on the local tracks at 59th must continue toward 53rd st and follow BD line and any Uptown train on the local tracks at 42nd must continue toward 53rd st and follow E line. Even emergency reroutes could not continue on the local between 42nd and 59th. Then there would be no trains running local at the 50th st upper level, so a bridge (like the one at 149th -GC) over the current local tracks could be built to turn 50th into a stop for the AC express. And as a plus, it seems to allow for a wider platform as well.

 

* The full plan involves:

running as current, except no late night service. 

running 168th St to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) at all times except late nights, running local on CPW.
Late nights B is extended to 207th St.

running from 205th St, Bronx to Euclid Av, Brooklyn at all times except late nights. Express in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn. Rush hours will run express along Grand Concourse in the dominant direction. Late nights, is extended to serve Lefferts and Far Rockway in place of the A.   

running from Bedford Park Blvd to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) as a local train along CPW. No night or weekend service. 

The plan maintains current CPW services, while avoiding merging at Columbus Circle (and at Canal along the 8th Ave line). During daytime hours, there is one express from Inwood and one local from Washington Heights, and one express from Bronx and one local from Bronx. Nights and weekends all services are maintained, except the local from Bronx. Late nights, we have an express along CPW that heads to Bronx and a local along CPW that heads to Inwood.

 

This is a good plan for deinterlining CPW, but during late nights  should run local on Fulton Street and from 168-145 St replacing the  and the  should run to Norwood, that would massively reduce customer confusion although most riders aren’t on the subway during late nights.

[MTA Researcher]

9 hours ago, mrsman said:

Reddit has some good pictures of a track bridge over teh 149th-GC station that is being used to facilitate construction of an elevator:

It led me to thinking about the possibilites of implementing similar track bridge along the 50th st station of the AC line in order to better incorporate deinterlining along CPW.  My comment on reddit is below:

 

 

Thank you for posting this picture as it allows us to see what is going on. It really gives more space to the station.

Add'l thoughts:

1) Could something like this be made permanent if new switches between express and local track were added just to the south of the station? IMO, the only reason to run any trains on express track is to make the merge with easier, will stop at 138th and will not, so it allows to merge into the stream of traffic behind a 4 if they both arrive at the same time.     

 

2) This rail bridge has given me other ideas in hypothetical plans. A de-interlining plan to have AC run express on CPW and BD run local.* This avoids merging issues at Columbus Circle. AC continue as the 8th Ave express while E runs as the sole 8th Ave local. AC continue toward the Cranberry tunnel and E terminates at WTC, thereby avoiding the merges at Canal St as well. This has one small problem with regards to no access to 50th st station, since both A and C would skip it on the 8th Av express tracks. But what if the 8th Ave local tracks were simply closed in the area (i.e. blocked from trains running through). This means that any Downtown train on the local tracks at 59th must continue toward 53rd st and follow BD line and any Uptown train on the local tracks at 42nd must continue toward 53rd st and follow E line. Even emergency reroutes could not continue on the local between 42nd and 59th. Then there would be no trains running local at the 50th st upper level, so a bridge (like the one at 149th -GC) over the current local tracks could be built to turn 50th into a stop for the AC express. And as a plus, it seems to allow for a wider platform as well.

 

* The full plan involves:

running as current, except no late night service. 

running 168th St to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) at all times except late nights, running local on CPW.
Late nights B is extended to 207th St.

running from 205th St, Bronx to Euclid Av, Brooklyn at all times except late nights. Express in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn. Rush hours will run express along Grand Concourse in the dominant direction. Late nights, is extended to serve Lefferts and Far Rockway in place of the A.   

running from Bedford Park Blvd to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) as a local train along CPW. No night or weekend service. 

The plan maintains current CPW services, while avoiding merging at Columbus Circle (and at Canal along the 8th Ave line). During daytime hours, there is one express from Inwood and one local from Washington Heights, and one express from Bronx and one local from Bronx. Nights and weekends all services are maintained, except the local from Bronx. Late nights, we have an express along CPW that heads to Bronx and a local along CPW that heads to Inwood.

 

Except that apparently no one wants 2 8 Av Exp over 2 8 Av Lcl. The next quote says so…

21 hours ago, Theli11 said:

I think what I'm confused about is the purpose of these suggestions. Usually when people want to switch one route with another it's supposed to have an advantage for it. I doubt 8th Av needs 2 express services over 2 locals, and when you have the 1 local service locked in at 12 TPH also merging with the . I feel like service changes should have a good reason why. 

@mrsman Also given the constraints around CPW, 8 Av, 6 Av configuration-wise, I’ve come to the conclusion that  and  should be CPW Exp with  to 207 and  to 205. Then the blue M from 168 - Metropolitan Av. Of course this idea needs Broadway Lcl to serve CPW Lcl.

 

NOTE: I replaced  here with  for  ronx, get it?

 

Just having a little OCD lol

[Amiri the subway guy]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:45 PM, Reptile said:

Here's my very long-term proposal for the SAS

125th St/Bway to Merrick Blvd. Starts as a 125th St crosstown, then 2nd Avenue local to Hanover Sq. Runs as Fulton Express to Broadway Junction where it splits off and runs on Atlantic Ave (b/c the Atlantic Branch will become a shuttle when East Side Access opens) to Jamaica Center and then an extension to Merrick Blvd with the .

ALTERNATIVE: The runs local on Fulton Street to Euclid Ave, the runs Fulton express to Merrick Blvd.

Forest Hills 71st Ave to Euclid Ave. Runs local on QBL replacing the to a new 4-track tunnel on 58th St, then 2nd Avenue local to Hanover Square and Fulton Local to Euclid Ave. Does not run late nights.

College Point to Brighton Beach. Operates local on a new Northern Blvd line in Queens to the 58th St tunnel. 2nd Avenue Express to Grand St, then Manhattan Bridge and Brighton Express. Late nights runs College Point-14th St.

Springfield Blvd to Coney Island. Operates on the LIE, swings north to Flushing Main Street, then express on Northern Blvd, only stopping at Main St, Willets Point, Junction Blvd, and Queens Blvd to 58th St tunnel. 2nd Av express in Manhattan to Grand Street, runs over the Manhattan Bridge to the Brighton local.

Other changes:

now runs 145th St/BPB to Metropolitan Ave replacing the

now runs Norwood to Broadway Junction, or to Merrick Blvd replacing the alternatively. This was my original idea but Downtown Brooklyn access is important, and the would become a very long line running through 4 boroughs.

^these two along with may also be deinterlined on CPW.

runs from the Bronx via 3rd Ave to Coney Island. is rerouted to West End, deinterlining DeKalb Ave

Runs from LGA (extention from Astoria) to Bay Ridge. A new yard would be constructed on the LGA extention to avoid the issue that got the removed from Astoria in 1987. would be discontinued

would return, running from Forest Hills to Church Ave via Culver express. Rush hours it would be extended in the peak direction to Kings Highway.

would be changed, a third track would be added on the rest of the Jamaica line. It would be a peak direction service like the but it would keep its name to not confuse people.

I like the idea suggestions I make. Leave Jamaica line as it is cause I don’t think   Useless it’s on separate tracks
Keep southern Brooklyn the same in order not to cause service disruptions and not make this harder then it needs to be but still deinterline 

Build a new Williamburg subway line to connect to the  and  Maybe one to Utica Avenue or Lower montauk  

Reroute the  via 2nd Avenue and the  run to Euclid Avenue or use the to Euclid Avenue instead is a better choice  for the merrick extension

 

[ActiveCity]

If you want a new Williamsburg line, just use the provisions at Canal St on the 8th Avenue line. From there, you'd be able to create a new Worth St-East Broadway crosstown line.

[Amiri the subway guy]

Here’s my plan for 2nd Avenue service. 
 

 2nd Avenue local Utica Avenue Local Broadway 125th street Manhattan - Kings Highway Brooklyn The  t would first run down st mark Avenue or Bergen street than run down  all the way to Utica Avenue kings highway this gives Harlem easier access to east side and allow Utica Avenue to have subway service 

 

 2nd Avenue local Northern Blvd Express 4th Avenue local. Utopia Pway Queens - Bay Ridge 95th street Brooklyn  The  starts far north of queens than would run down the line  At Parson Blvd the  would than run express on a 4 track line and than a new tunnel at 57th street connecting the rest of 2nd Ave and Next in Brooklyn In runs down Adam steeet and connects  to the  at jay street. The  would great help out a lot the northern Blvd would reduce crowding on the  and the 4th Avenue while might not really be impactful might give another alternative to the east side instead of  

 

 2nd Avenue express Rockway beach branch local 

Rockway Beach 116th street Queens - Hanover Square Manhattan  

 

You guess it the  starts at Rockway beach than runs with the  until Rockway blvd than the  

Would run down the Rockway beach branch and then it would head down to Manhattan and connec to the express tracks running down to Hanover square

Other routes

 extended to Bronx Fordham Plaza 3rd Avenue local

 extends to parsons Blvd queens Northern Blvd local

 extended to Euclid Avenue Brooklyn 

 Reroutes to express track and extends to Lefferts Blvd 

 diverted to far Rockway 

 extended to Brooklyn Williamburg via Wilson Avenue 

new 5th avenues routes

 145th street Manhattan  - Coney Island Brooklyn 

5th Avenue express Utica Avenue express 

retooled

Parsons Blvd queens - Washington square Manhattan 

northern Blvd local 5th Avenue local

Note replaces it

 

 

 

[ActiveCity]

IND Routes:

 (8th Av express, Fulton St express) Northbound Terminal: 207th St, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Rockaway Park, Queens.

 (Concourse local, 6th Av express, Brighton express) Northbound Terminal: Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (8th Av local, Horace Harding Blvd local) Northbound Terminal: 168th St, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Parsons Blvd, Queens.

 (Queens Blvd express, 8th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Little Neck Parkway, Queens. Southbound Terminal: World Trade Center, Manhattan.

 (Queens Blvd express, 6th Av local, Culver express) Northbound Terminal: Francis Lewis Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (Queens Blvd Local, Crosstown) Northbound Terminal: Continental Av, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Church Av, Brooklyn.

 (Concourse express, 8th Av express, Fulton St express) Northbound Terminal: Co-op City Blvd, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: 229th St, Queens.

 (Broadway Brooklyn local, 6th Av local, Queens Blvd super express bypass) Northbound Terminal: Atlantic Av, Brooklyn. Southbound Terminal: Francis Lewis Blvd, Queens.

 (2nd Av local, Fulton St local) Northbound Terminal: Harding Av, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Cross Bay Blvd, Queens.

 (Queens Blvd super express bypass, 2nd Av local, Fulton St local) Northbound Terminal: 179th St, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Lefferts Blvd, Queens.

BMT Routes:

(Horace Harding Blvd express, Nassau St local, 4th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Marathon Parkway, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (14th St, Canarsie local) Northbound Terminal: 8th Av, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Rockaway Parkway, Brooklyn.

 (2nd Av local, Broadway express, 4th Av express) Northbound Terminal: 241st St, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (Broadway local, Queens Blvd local) Northbound Terminal: City Hall, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Mott Av, Queens.

 (Brighton local) Northbound Terminal: Franklin Av, Brooklyn. Southbound Terminal: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn.

 (Broadway local, 4th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Ditmars Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: 95th St, Brooklyn.

 (Jamaica local, Broadway Brooklyn local, Nassau St local) Northbound Terminal: Springfield Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Chambers St, Manhattan.

IRT Routes:

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Edited July 30, 2022 by ActiveCity

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, ActiveCity said:

IND Routes:

 (8th Av express, Fulton St express) Northbound Terminal: 207th St, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Rockaway Park, Queens.

 (Concourse local, 6th Av express, Brighton express) Northbound Terminal: Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (8th Av local, Horace Harding Blvd local) Northbound Terminal: 168th St, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Parsons Blvd, Queens.

 (Queens Blvd express, 8th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Little Neck Parkway, Queens. Southbound Terminal: World Trade Center, Manhattan.

 (Queens Blvd express, 6th Av local, Culver express) Northbound Terminal: Francis Lewis Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (Queens Blvd Local, Crosstown) Northbound Terminal: Continental Av, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Church Av, Brooklyn.

 (Concourse express, 8th Av express, Fulton St express) Northbound Terminal: Co-op City Blvd, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: 229th St, Queens.

 (Broadway Brooklyn local, 6th Av local, Queens Blvd super express bypass) Northbound Terminal: Atlantic Av, Brooklyn. Southbound Terminal: Francis Lewis Blvd, Queens.

 (2nd Av local, Fulton St local) Northbound Terminal: Harding Av, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Cross Bay Blvd, Queens.

 (Queens Blvd super express bypass, 2nd Av local, Fulton St local) Northbound Terminal: 179th St, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Lefferts Blvd, Queens.

BMT Routes:

(Horace Harding Blvd express, Nassau St local, 4th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Marathon Parkway, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (14th St, Canarsie local) Northbound Terminal: 8th Av, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Rockaway Parkway, Brooklyn.

 (2nd Av local, Broadway express, 4th Av express) Northbound Terminal: 241st St, Bronx. Southbound Terminal: Coney Island, Brooklyn.

 (Broadway local, Queens Blvd local) Northbound Terminal: City Hall, Manhattan. Southbound Terminal: Mott Av, Queens.

 (Brighton local) Northbound Terminal: Franklin Av, Brooklyn. Southbound Terminal: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn.

 (Broadway local, 4th Av local) Northbound Terminal: Ditmars Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: 95th St, Brooklyn.

 (Jamaica local, Broadway Brooklyn local, Nassau St local) Northbound Terminal: Springfield Blvd, Queens. Southbound Terminal: Chambers St, Manhattan.

IRT Routes:

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Northbound Terminal: .Southbound Terminal: .

Some of this seems very confusing, for starters what's the point in getting rid of the  in place of the , what exactly is the 's entire routing, why is the  in South Brooklyn and why do I get the feeling it's replacing the  in Brooklyn, why not just let the  run to Coney instead? It's not like Astoria has a yard now because of it. I think you need to go more in-depth with this because it's not only pretty confusing, but there's a lot about this where I'm not getting the full picture

[MTA Researcher]

Seriously why people advocate to send 2 Av/Broadway to the Bronx? I think that it’s better if we swap it around. I.e. Queens bound Broadway line via express in Manhattan and Brooklyn and 2 Av/CPW Broadway line via local in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

 

I know express track connect to 63 st, but really how much investment is needed to flip it around?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:16 PM, ActiveCity said:

(Proposal)

Without a map, these wholesale changes I’ve been seeing on the last few pages are very difficult to envision. But I’m not really sure what’s the purpose of eliminating the  and . And what’s happening with the IRT lines? There’s no north or south terminals for any of them. And why eliminate the  while having and  lines?

[NBTA]

new.mta.info/20YN

Very interesting. They are considering a lot of things, but two things I saw caught my eye.

 Westbound Expansion Possible Terminals:

125-Broadway, 137-Riverside, 137-City College, or potentially on the  to 168th or 207th.

 Extension to Brooklyn:

Not via West End, but it’s own line, to possibly 4th-9th, stopping at Columbia Waterfront, Atlantic Basin, and Red Hook. 

This assessment is gonna be finished next October, but it’s interesting that they’re considering some things like this. And I wonder how long it’ll take. 

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

new.mta.info/20YN

Very interesting. They are considering a lot of things, but two things I saw caught my eye.

 Westbound Expansion Possible Terminals:

125-Broadway, 137-Riverside, 137-City College, or potentially on the  to 168th or 207th.

 Extension to Brooklyn:

Not via West End, but it’s own line, to possibly 4th-9th, stopping at Columbia Waterfront, Atlantic Basin, and Red Hook. 

This assessment is gonna be finished next October, but it’s interesting that they’re considering some things like this. And I wonder how long it’ll take. 

Out of all the things that was mentioned in the assessments, the CPW-SAS connection is what stood out to me the most. I've gone ahead talking about the advantages with this connection and how it would be a really good investment even surprised they would ever consider such to begin with and I'm glad it's acknowledged. I dare say it's a better investment compared to the other three 125 St crosstown extensions as there is a lot more that can be taken advantage in this scenario.

[ActiveCity]

7 hours ago, NBTA said:

new.mta.info/20YN

Very interesting. They are considering a lot of things, but two things I saw caught my eye.

 Westbound Expansion Possible Terminals:

125-Broadway, 137-Riverside, 137-City College, or potentially on the  to 168th or 207th.

 Extension to Brooklyn:

Not via West End, but it’s own line, to possibly 4th-9th, stopping at Columbia Waterfront, Atlantic Basin, and Red Hook. 

This assessment is gonna be finished next October, but it’s interesting that they’re considering some things like this. And I wonder how long it’ll take. 

For the W extension, they'll probably use the bellmouth provisions at Whitehall which is insane because I thought they were never gonna be used in any way.

[Reptile]

1 hour ago, ActiveCity said:

For the W extension, they'll probably use the bellmouth provisions at Whitehall which is insane because I thought they were never gonna be used in any way.

It would be better to use them for a Fulton Street extension of the line on the local tracks to Euclid Ave so that the C can run to Lefferts Blvd, removing a merge on 8th Ave and providing more options to Fulton St riders (even though Jay Street Metrotech provides a transfer to that same line)

[mrsman]

16 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Out of all the things that was mentioned in the assessments, the CPW-SAS connection is what stood out to me the most. I've gone ahead talking about the advantages with this connection and how it would be a really good investment even surprised they would ever consider such to begin with and I'm glad it's acknowledged. I dare say it's a better investment compared to the other three 125 St crosstown extensions as there is a lot more that can be taken advantage in this scenario.

I agree.  Not only will this allow the 2nd Ave line access to a yard at the northern end (Concourse Yard or 207th Yard and some of the smaller yards that CPW trains can reach), but this will also allow for emergency reroutes of IND trains if there are problems on 6th or 8th.  If the trains are to be put into revenue service going uptown, then it can provide access for Washington Heights and Concourse customers to the Upper East Side.  My preference would be that trains from 207th will lead to the Upper East Side, since Concourse folks could transfer at 161St to 4.  This would mean that  OR would extend to 168th.     and  would both extend to 207th as 8th Ave expresses, with the only distinction being Fulton local/express.   and  from the Concourse line will run exclusively on the CPW local tracks to the 6th Av express tracks.  

Looking at this map, focusing on the 125th to 135th segment.

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf

Allow  and  to operate on the orange tracks as the express.   and  will connect to the black tracks which should be extended to the tunnel uner the other tracks leading to the Concourse line.  will connect to the outer blue tracks at some point north of where the locals connect with the black tracks.   will have its own new platform at 125th to provide connections to the other trains.

 

Or if they continue the interlined mess, allow  to join the  once  trains diverge toward the Bronx.  

 

I'm not a fan of to Red Hook.  I agree that if we diverge out of the Montague tunnel, a more useful routing would be to send some of the Broadway locals to Euclid.   to Red Hook would be interesting though, especially if we had a BMT/IND/IRT transfer station at 4th and 9th in Brooklyn.

 

 

 

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 8/1/2022 at 1:10 AM, NBTA said:

new.mta.info/20YN

Very interesting. They are considering a lot of things, but two things I saw caught my eye.

 Westbound Expansion Possible Terminals:

125-Broadway, 137-Riverside, 137-City College, or potentially on the  to 168th or 207th.

 Extension to Brooklyn:

Not via West End, but it’s own line, to possibly 4th-9th, stopping at Columbia Waterfront, Atlantic Basin, and Red Hook. 

This assessment is gonna be finished next October, but it’s interesting that they’re considering some things like this. And I wonder how long it’ll take. 

It is interesting that they’re looking at these ideas, even though they appear to be crying poverty once again, so we’ll be lucky if we get anywhere beyond SAS Phase 2 (if we get even that). I’m not really sold on the idea of sending the  to Red Hook and ending it at 4th-9th, a station already served by the . Maybe if they could figure a connection from the  to the Fulton St  line, that would be of much greater value.

On 8/1/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vulturious said:

Out of all the things that was mentioned in the assessments, the CPW-SAS connection is what stood out to me the most. I've gone ahead talking about the advantages with this connection and how it would be a really good investment even surprised they would ever consider such to begin with and I'm glad it's acknowledged. I dare say it's a better investment compared to the other three 125 St crosstown extensions as there is a lot more that can be taken advantage in this scenario.

 

12 hours ago, mrsman said:

I agree.  Not only will this allow the 2nd Ave line access to a yard at the northern end (Concourse Yard or 207th Yard and some of the smaller yards that CPW trains can reach), but this will also allow for emergency reroutes of IND trains if there are problems on 6th or 8th.  If the trains are to be put into revenue service going uptown, then it can provide access for Washington Heights and Concourse customers to the Upper East Side.  My preference would be that trains from 207th will lead to the Upper East Side, since Concourse folks could transfer at 161St to 4.  This would mean that  OR would extend to 168th.     and  would both extend to 207th as 8th Ave expresses, with the only distinction being Fulton local/express.   and  from the Concourse line will run exclusively on the CPW local tracks to the 6th Av express tracks.  

Looking at this map, focusing on the 125th to 135th segment.

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf

Allow  and  to operate on the orange tracks as the express.   and  will connect to the black tracks which should be extended to the tunnel uner the other tracks leading to the Concourse line.  will connect to the outer blue tracks at some point north of where the locals connect with the black tracks.   will have its own new platform at 125th to provide connections to the other trains.

 

Or if they continue the interlined mess, allow  to join the  once  trains diverge toward the Bronx.  

 

I'm not a fan of to Red Hook.  I agree that if we diverge out of the Montague tunnel, a more useful routing would be to send some of the Broadway locals to Euclid.   to Red Hook would be interesting though, especially if we had a BMT/IND/IRT transfer station at 4th and 9th in Brooklyn.

 

 

 

 

I’m not opposed to a 125th crosstown service. I don’t even mind if it has a track connection to the CPW Line at 125th. What I am opposed to is having the  or  train continue north onto the CPW line. This is unnecessary reverse-branching. And doing so would force a cut in  and/or  service to make room for the . Even a deinterlined CPW will still experience merging delays wherever the  cuts in. And I’m also opposed to using the Concourse or 207th yards as a new home for the . The  can stay based in Coney Island; no need to rack up extra miles on deadheading to Concourse or 207. 

It would be much better to have the  or  (preferably the  IMHO; the  already has plenty on its plate as the Broadway/Brighton train) to focus as a 125 crosstown. If there’s a need to go from Concourse, Wash Heights or the West Bronx to the East Side, then just transfer to the  at 125. If it’s very important to have a transfer to the  line, then the best way to get there would be for the  to turn north onto Amsterdam, then west onto 136th or 138th and connect to the  at 137th there. One option they listed was for the line to go all the way to Riverside, turn north then back east to connect to the . That route is just plain silly. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, mrsman said:

I agree.  Not only will this allow the 2nd Ave line access to a yard at the northern end (Concourse Yard or 207th Yard and some of the smaller yards that CPW trains can reach), but this will also allow for emergency reroutes of IND trains if there are problems on 6th or 8th.  If the trains are to be put into revenue service going uptown, then it can provide access for Washington Heights and Concourse customers to the Upper East Side.  My preference would be that trains from 207th will lead to the Upper East Side, since Concourse folks could transfer at 161St to 4.  This would mean that  OR would extend to 168th.     and  would both extend to 207th as 8th Ave expresses, with the only distinction being Fulton local/express.   and  from the Concourse line will run exclusively on the CPW local tracks to the 6th Av express tracks. 

 

Point well taken.  Main purpose of the connection, however would be for emergency reroutes as I would have the  go to 125/Broadway and the run via an extension to the Bronx that would likely run along the former 3rd Avenue EL route (as subway OR EL) in The Bronx to Gun Hill Road (what later was the before the line was discontinued in 1973).  Such a connection could also be used for special event trains to and from Yankee Stadium. 

[Lex]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It is interesting that they’re looking at these ideas, even though they appear to be crying poverty once again, so we’ll be lucky if we get anywhere beyond SAS Phase 2 (if we get even that). I’m not really sold on the idea of sending the  to Red Hook and ending it at 4th-9th, a station already served by the . Maybe if they could figure a connection from the  to the Fulton St  line, that would be of much greater value.

 

I’m not opposed to a 125th crosstown service. I don’t even mind if it has a track connection to the CPW Line at 125th. What I am opposed to is having the  or  train continue north onto the CPW line. This is unnecessary reverse-branching. And doing so would force a cut in  and/or  service to make room for the . Even a deinterlined CPW will still experience merging delays wherever the  cuts in. And I’m also opposed to using the Concourse or 207th yards as a new home for the . The  can stay based in Coney Island; no need to rack up extra miles on deadheading to Concourse or 207. 

It would be much better to have the  or  (preferably the  IMHO; the  already has plenty on its plate as the Broadway/Brighton train) to focus as a 125 crosstown. If there’s a need to go from Concourse, Wash Heights or the West Bronx to the East Side, then just transfer to the  at 125. If it’s very important to have a transfer to the  line, then the best way to get there would be for the  to turn north onto Amsterdam, then west onto 136th or 138th and connect to the  at 137th there. One option they listed was for the line to go all the way to Riverside, turn north then back east to connect to the . That route is just plain silly. 

Perhaps, but I have my doubts about that. After all, 135th Street's layout has an unusual quirk that makes it somewhat similar to DeKalb Avenue.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

Perhaps, but I have my doubts about that. After all, 135th Street's layout has an unusual quirk that makes it somewhat similar to DeKalb Avenue.

They both have six tracks, but that’s where the similarities end. And the “black tracks,” as @mrsman called them, merge out of the local tracks north of 125th, then back in with them and the express tracks just north of 135th. They don’t seem like anything more than storage tracks. I think to make them useful for more than just that, you’d have to extend them. But then they’d get in the path of the tracks headed to 145th St Lower Level. Without redoing the 145th St junction, I don’t think you can run the  uptown via St. Nicholas/Upper Broadway without interfering with the existing  services. And that’s just not worth doing.

Edited August 2, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

11 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

They both have six tracks, but that’s where the similarities end. And the “black tracks,” as @mrsman called them, merge out of the local tracks north of 125th, then back in with them and the express tracks just north of 135th. They don’t seem like anything more than storage tracks. I think to make them useful for more than just that, you’d have to extend them. But then they’d get in the path of the tracks headed to 145th St Lower Level. Without redoing the 145th St junction, I don’t think you can run the  uptown via St. Nicholas/Upper Broadway without interfering with the existing  services. And that’s just not worth doing.

Right, the main purpose of building the connection would be for emergencies and G.O.'s where the and  need to access the SAS between 125th and 63rd/Lex where such can go to the and then run via 6th Avenue to West 4th and in the / 's case then go back to the 8th Avenue Line at West 4th.  Obviously, you would not have all four lines running that way, more realistically in that scenario you would have the  and run that route with the suspended and the  starting at Columbus Circle OR the split, running between 125 and 207 on the northern end and most likely between Columbus Circle or Penn Station and Lefferts/Far Rockaway and the running via the SAS and 6th Avenue to West 4th.  

[subwaykid256]

Extending the SAS to to 125 & Broadway would be a no-go due to density of 125 st past Amsterdam Av.

 

 

I would terminate the at 125 & St Nicholas Av. Have the skip 135 St so the  can merge via the local tracks then have it run with the  where both will terminate at 168 St . My idea would involve a bottleneck similar to the at 149 GC so that the CPW tracks can connect to SAS.

Then I would have the merge with the via Rivington & Allen Sts so it can use the unused tracks at Bowery, Canal and Chambers. (Still working on where I will send the after Chambers.)

[subwaykid256]

So heres what I've been thinking

solely serves Far Rockaway

 skips Spring and 23 Sts and serves Lefferts Blvd

8 Av local WTC- Rockaway Park via 53 St local and Queenslink

rerouted via 2 Av line and terminates at 125 St St Nicholas Av

new express tracks at 2 Av then via 3 Av to Fordham Plaza

168 St via 125 St crosstown connection. Run via 2 Av then Nassau St line then via Atlantic Av with a new Station at Clinton St then via Transit Museum Tracks

Fulton St lcl from Hoyt-Schemerhorn to Euclid Av

still debating whether to leave the as the sole local service on Fulton St or have the run express

also trying to decide whether can share QBL Express tracks 

[ABOGbrooklyn]

2 hours ago, subwaykid256 said:

 

new express tracks at 2 Av then via 3 Av to Fordham Plaza

Why do so many people like having the go to the Bronx? The is already a long line and is local in Brooklyn. This seems unrealistic and the Bronx already has a Coney Island Route in the . should go crosstown 125th Street and the should go to the Bronx via 3rd Avenue

Edited August 5, 2022 by ABOGbrooklyn

[Trainmaster5]

15 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Why do so many people like having the go to the Bronx? The is already a long line and is local in Brooklyn. This seems unrealistic and the Bronx already has a Coney Island Route in the . should go crosstown 125th Street and the should go to the Bronx via 3rd Avenue

Let me flip the script on your proposal. Run the  express in Brighton service and make the  the local. Let the  make local stops on the Brighton line late nights and weekends if necessary. IMO the Bronx needs the service over the proposed 125th St crosstown extension. That, and the  , are a fantasy proposal that will probably never see the light of day. BTW how's that stop north of 96th St on the SAS working out ? They'll probably get to it after they complete those stops south of Parsons-Archer in Queens. Nothing personal toward you or any particular posters but does anyone really believe these ideas will come to fruition , ever ? Just my take. Carry on.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me flip the script on your proposal. Run the  express in Brighton service and make the  the local. Let the  make local stops on the Brighton line late nights and weekends if necessary. IMO the Bronx needs the service over the proposed 125th St crosstown extension. That, and the  , are a fantasy proposal that will probably never see the light of day. BTW how's that stop north of 96th St on the SAS working out ? They'll probably get to it after they complete those stops south of Parsons-Archer in Queens. Nothing personal toward you or any particular posters but does anyone really believe these ideas will come to fruition , ever ? Just my take. Carry on.

See the current train today and tell me how well a night's and weekend will run if it went to the Bronx. And also I don't see why the Bronx needs the when the proposed can do they exact same thing and serve the east side just like the and

I agree the Bronx needs the service that's why I suggest the go crosstown 125 and the go up to Fordham Plaza. A crosstown 125 will still help the Bronx either way 

Edited August 6, 2022 by ABOGbrooklyn

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

See the current train today and tell me how well a night's and weekend will run if it went to the Bronx. And also I don't see why the Bronx needs the when the proposed can do they exact same thing and serve the east side just like the and

I agree the Bronx needs the service that's why I suggest the go crosstown 125 and the go up to Fordham Plaza. A crosstown 125 will still help the Bronx either way 

Let me make one thing perfectly clear.. I'm an elderly person now but I remember the Third Avenue El running in .Manhattan. I worked for NYCT for 30 years in RTO.. I'm a veteran of the Beast,  the from New Lots to 241 st in the Bronx. I've ridden lines like Myrtle-Jay, Culver Shuttle,  Jamaica to 168 st, Franklin-Brighton,  and BMT Fulton to Lefferts. I've seen the 1968 Plan for Action introduced. I think that it's naive to believe that the will ever come to pass. As far as 125th goes you have a line at Broadway,  multiple lines at St.Nick, Lenox,  and Lexington. I believe that a crosstown line is a poor expenditure of limited funds compared with a Bronx extension. That's my opinion and knowing how the works I'd venture that the crosstown line is a pipe dream. Just look at the history of these proposals. Perhaps I'm just cynical but there are less lines running today. 50÷ years after the Plan for Action.  . Welcome to the real world.  Carry on.