Rockaway Beach Branch

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Now seeing the constructive arguments that are occuring in this thread, might as well have my take on it.

1) the Q52 and Q53 buses have not caused much improvement in my opinion. I do sometimes use Woodhaven whenever I'm trying to go to school or back (I'm usually driven by my parents or some other relative so I never taken the buses on Woodhaven before) and buses aren't as frequent despite the amount of buses that serve these particular area's so I agree with @Coney Island Av here. The area is actually dense enough to justify RBB. I'd suggest building a bus hub right outside Woodhaven and Queens Blvd's  (which I'll discuss some other day) and do borough integraion between bus routes of different boroughs. Example B46+M14D. 

2) While overcrowding is an issue I face every day (whether it be Roosevelt or Sutphin. And what not) MANY OF YOU ARE DISREGARDING WHAT @Coney Island Av Said about projects being done in conjunction with RBB. Yeah you may talk about Woodhaven being express and dwell tines becoming absolute crap at that station, but did all of you forget about the Queens Bypass? The one project that will effectively reduce crowding on the and ? Apparently so. and @RR503 I see what you mean about Roosevelt in a morning rush. It's a living hell on ALL platforms. I almost can't even railfan there. And I barely use that part of QBL anymore. Maybe if we lived in a fantasy world where people wouldn't flock for expresses then maybe we'd be in a better position.

3) the the . Where do I begin here. As someone who uses the it's actually not as bad as other lines. But it's not frequent. And I'm not expecting it to be either. If Greenpoint and LIC are going through some nice development, then it'd be no suprise if service increases. The is not useless, it just needs to be a better feeder line. Then it can rejoin QBL. 

4) I agree that this line is a crucial crosstown. That's why we must start thinking 100 years into the future. Yes, there are Denser corridors, yes theyll get more ridership, but we have a rare opportunity to start working with this abandoned railroad. If we utilize this now and plan it right, then we could have a line that will be beneficial and that will act as a supplement to the infrequent  train. And the fellow buses nearby. We don't need to extend the to Lefferts (or at least not until SAS arrives to Fulton) 

5) @Coney Island Av already stated that Busways, LRT's and even the LIRR are Not feasible, and it's no wonder why. I was on twitter the other day and @vanshnookenraggen was making good claims towards why RBB should be subway.

"I totally realize that asking people to transfer at Woodhaven goes against everything I've been arguing BUT the point is it wouldn't force anyone to transfer and would reduce crowding at Roosevelt."

"Futhermore, with CBTC there will be more express service on QB so service east of FH will be added to handle the load."

I'm not gonna quote everything he said cause that's too much

6) Dyre Ave. As @Trainmaster5 stated, is a different corridor and no 2 railroads are the same. RBB if built would have a different kind of success in my opinion. 

Welp, this is just my take. RBB is not a selfish project whatsoever and Forest Hills is one of the worst terminals that I have ever experienced. This is just my take on the whole argument 

1) RBB is definitely dense enough for a subway. Maybe too dense for QBL to handle. Thats what sets it apart from Dyre Av (and the fact that it will merge in the middle of QBL) . Thats like having  a line from Queens merging into the Lex Av Line at 51 St. 2) Queens Bypass needed to be done first. Its easier to connect RBB to QB Bypass than at Rego Park Subway Station. 5) Woodhaven Bl Express is a mixed bag. On one hand, it COULD alleviate crowding at Roosevelt, on the other hand, the  and the  will be completely overwhelmed. Quite honestly I rather have the express stop at Woodhaven, and skip Roosevelt, to keep the  riders from transferring to the Express. But then again, that would overwhelm the  line west of 69 Street. In a nutshell we need more capacity in Queens along existing corridor.

[CenSin]

15 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Quite honestly I rather have the express stop at Woodhaven, and skip Roosevelt, to keep the  riders from transferring to the Express. But then again, that would overwhelm the  line west of 69 Street. In a nutshell we need more capacity in Queens along existing corridor.

The would be overwhelmed because the more attractive transfer at 74 Street–Broadway would no longer exist. Those folks would be transferring at 61 Street–Woodside to the train using the bypass line which might be nice because the line will have lots of capacity, but it will also incite protests by various stakeholders. I’m sure if they had a say, they would insist on adding express platforms to 74 Street–Broadway.

[RR503]

15 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

Fair enough with your point of QBL being at capacity. But we can actually fix these issues. You should also see that all these problems of overcrowding, ridership, and myriad everything can actually be fixed. However, which problem do you think is the most severe with RBB? Is it capacity or density? The only reason I brought up Dyre was because it's a low-ridership branch, which is what you would expect the RBB to be. And you would obviously expect the IRT Lex to be overcongested, just like the QBL. 

3

Both are issues. I'm not gonna choose a 'biggest' problem because whether or not it's 'big,' it makes the project a non-starter. Once again, Dyre is a low ridership, ex-railroad branch. That does not make its situation in any way comparable to that of QBL/RBB. Think of it this way: Dyre brought Lex to capacity. RBB brings QBL to hell. 

15 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

@T to Dyre Avenue brought up a proposal earlier in the thread by returning to the pre-2001 split, except it's reversed with 18 /12 . Since the  is the more busier of the two, the extra 3 TPH could possibly handle the riders coming from RBB. However, this also means fewer s would need to turn at Kings Highway. This is more likely to happen this century, because the bypass will never be built within that time. It's imperfect, but it's the only way to do it without the MTA becoming fossils. 

5

And further complicate merging on those lines? No. Roosevelt crowding would get worse as people pass up 2 s in waiting for an . The  is higher ridership, but really not by much. The  pulls too. And anyway, the 53rd st bound capacity you'd gain would all be taken up by current QB riders, who would be further encouraged to dump their locals. 

15 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

Now for the bypass. This is obviously the most optical solution for relieving congestion on the QBL. This fast route to/from Jamaica will pull passengers off the . Since QBL will then have enough capacity, there's nothing stopping the RBB from being reactivated. 

I also said that converting Woodhaven was to reduce the number of people transferring at Roosevelt. If people transfer at Woodhaven, there will be less transferring at Roosevelt. It makes two express stations for the average RBB rider to choose from, as opposed to 1 present-day option. 

2

Sure, then the ops argument would be eliminated if the Bypass is built, but that still doesn't mean the RBB should be built. That new QBL capacity should be used for a SE queens or Jewel avenue line -- extensions that would serve built up areas with little to no transit access -- not for a second line to that forlorn sandbar via parkland. 

And yes, converting Woodhaven gives imaginary RBB riders more options to transfer...to non-existent space on  and  trains. 

15 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

3) the the . Where do I begin here. As someone who uses the it's actually not as bad as other lines. But it's not frequent. And I'm not expecting it to be either. If Greenpoint and LIC are going through some nice development, then it'd be no suprise if service increases. The is not useless, it just needs to be a better feeder line. Then it can rejoin QBL. 

10

Why add feeder line service to QBL when you'd finally have the capacity to up Manhattan-bound local (ie non-feeder) service? With the conga line gone, the  and  could both go to 15tph instead of their current 10. That'd be useful, unlike the , which would just become a vessel on which people go to Roosevelt/QP to dump for the express. 

15 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

4) I agree that this line is a crucial crosstown. That's why we must start thinking 100 years into the future. Yes, there are Denser corridors, yes theyll get more ridership, but we have a rare opportunity to start working with this abandoned railroad. If we utilize this now and plan it right, then we could have a line that will be beneficial and that will act as a supplement to the infrequent  train. And the fellow buses nearby. We don't need to extend the to Lefferts (or at least not until SAS arrives to Fulton) 

3

100 years in the future, Forest Park will still be parkland, Jamaica Bay will still be a wildlife refuge, and the Rockaways (if still above the waterline) will still be best served by a  extension to Lefferts, given that the  actually takes people to Midtown points faster than any RBB service ever would. 

Look, I'm all for crosstowns, but in the right places. So RX basically. The RBB is a crosstown line that hits no major employment centers, no nodes of residential density, and is too far out to capture any meaningful traffic between centers further in. It'd be the other end of the Goldilocks scale on which the  is 'too close to Manhattan.' 

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, RR503 said:

That loud sucking sound is logic leaving this forum.

I'm not going to go through piece by piece and refute all the individual claims because, frankly, all of these have been shown to be untrue ad nauseum before, but my general thoughts. 

Most Q52/3 ridership is people who would take the  looking for more frequent subway service. Wanna know an easier way to provide them with that?  to Lefferts.

Now about Woodhaven... Unless I'm missing something regarding the difference between a train and a platform, adding an express stop at Woodhaven will not magically make more space aboard  trains appear. It'll actually probably do the opposite, by creating yet another place for local riders to jump ship, by creating another place for trains to get dwell issues, and by encouraging those brave few who ride from Woodhaven to Manhattan without transferring to the express to cease from their chivalry.

Also you seem to try to be claiming that  overcrowding is fake news. Can you pretty please go stand on the Manhattan bound platform of Roosevelt at 8:30AM or so on a weekday and tell me what you thing. N6 and LGA aren't the only ones on here who've ridden QB. 

More generally, you talk about people wanting to go from Long Island City to the Rockaways, and from Queens Boulevard to the  line. How many people want to? You can't just say there's demand, and voila, you're right, you have to demonstrate it. Look up census LEHD and get back to me. 

Now, for your last bit of stand up re: Dyre. Yes, it is a line extension. But somehow claiming that because Dyre doesn't overload Lex. and that the Rockaways don't overload the  means that the RBB won't overload Queens Boulevard makes me seriously question your understanding of the subway, nay, basic logic.

Just because projects share similarities (them being ex-main line RRs) does not make them the same. Sure, Dyre didn't overload Lex, but would you for a second consider adding another branch onto that trunk? No, you wouldn't, much in the same way you shouldn't consider adding more riders onto already-overcrowded lines in general. 

Queens Boulevard is at capacity. Period. Add capacity, we can talk. Until then, don't try to use examples from elsewhere to justify idiocy. No two bits of the system are the same. If you take away one thing from this, I want it to be that. Projects must stand alone, and make the case for their construction independent of past precedent. 

Oh lord. 

I'm not gonna go down Broadway with you, because I'm frankly bored after having had to repeat myself so many times, but dude, that second part about terminating trains at Union Turnpike is bad even for you! How, pray, do you plan to do that? Change ends 3 times in relaying on the local/yard/local tracks? Have them run NIS to 179? Relay on the middle tracks using that single crossover east of the station? 

You know, I used to have some level of faith in the potential of rhetoric and logic when used well to change people's minds. After having participated in myriad discussions like this where cogent chains of reasoning are ignored by those too insecure or obsessive to admit incorrectness, I'm losing that faith. 

Okay, so you can't terminate at Union Turnpike.  The idea was simply moving the terminal to where it doesn't interfere with an RBB line.  Ideally, if there is an RBB line, any line going to 71-Continental is extended to 179 or wherever such can be turned around without interfering with the RBB.  Best scenario I would be looking at then with in my case the going to Rockaway Park would be the and both going to 179 to prevent any conga lines at 71st-Continental that prevent the from being able to get to the RBB quickly.

And yes, the E/F is well known to be overcrowded at Roosevelt Avenue.  That's one reason I was looking at the prospect of having an RBB line potentially if possible run via a new route that would take it through the never-used UPPER level of Roosevelt Avenue and then possibly go to Manhattan with a stop to transfer to the Astoria line at some point before it goes via a new 79th Street tunnel that would come in at York-1st Avenues, then come in under the current SAS at 72nd and then join the somewhere after the turns off around 59th or so.   If you could somehow do that (unlikely because of the $$$ of course) THAT would go a long way towards making the RBB subway AND perhaps alleviating some of the overcrowding on Roosevelt Boulevard with a new option.

As for Broadway, that specifically is because the 6th Avenue Line doesn't serve lower Manhattan, and while we may know better on this, there are to me those more likely to support this if an RBB line went to lower Manhattan, which is why I would go with the  over the as the would be too long of a route. 

[officiallyliam]

14 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Okay, so you can't terminate at Union Turnpike.  The idea was simply moving the terminal to where it doesn't interfere with an RBB line.  Ideally, if there is an RBB line, any line going to 71-Continental is extended to 179 or wherever such can be turned around without interfering with the RBB.  Best scenario I would be looking at then with in my case the going to Rockaway Park would be the and both going to 179 to prevent any conga lines at 71st-Continental that prevent the from being able to get to the RBB quickly.

And yes, the E/F is well known to be overcrowded at Roosevelt Avenue.  That's one reason I was looking at the prospect of having an RBB line potentially if possible run via a new route that would take it through the never-used UPPER level of Roosevelt Avenue and then possibly go to Manhattan with a stop to transfer to the Astoria line at some point before it goes via a new 79th Street tunnel that would come in at York-1st Avenues, then come in under the current SAS at 72nd and then join the somewhere after the turns off around 59th or so.   If you could somehow do that (unlikely because of the $$$ of course) THAT would go a long way towards making the RBB subway AND perhaps alleviating some of the overcrowding on Roosevelt Boulevard with a new option.

As for Broadway, that specifically is because the 6th Avenue Line doesn't serve lower Manhattan, and while we may know better on this, there are to me those more likely to support this if an RBB line went to lower Manhattan, which is why I would go with the  over the as the would be too long of a route. 

Want to go from the Rockaways, Howard Beach, or Ozone Park to Lower Manhattan? The  does that.

Want to go from Woodhaven to Lower Manhattan? The  is right there.

Going from QBL to Lower Manhattan? The  does that; the  does via a transfer at Lex.

To go from any of the RBB neighborhoods to Lower Manhattan via Jackson Heights, LIC, and Broadway is to take just about the most circuitous route possible.

[Mtatransit]

2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Want to go from the Rockaways, Howard Beach, or Ozone Park to Lower Manhattan? The  does that.

Want to go from Woodhaven to Lower Manhattan? The  is right there.

Going from QBL to Lower Manhattan? The  does that; the  does via a transfer at Lex.

To go from any of the RBB neighborhoods to Lower Manhattan via Jackson Heights, LIC, and Broadway is to take just about the most circuitous route possible.

Not everything happens in Manhattan you know... there is a reason why capacity has been boosted on Woodhaven Blvd for buses. How about those commuters from Ozone Park to QCM who has the option to take the slow buses or a circular route via the  to  to  to  or go to Manhattan and back track. The subway does a awesome job connecting outer borough to Manhattan. However intraborough, it does a terrible job. The only places served are usually on the route to Manhattan.

[Deucey]

19 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Not everything happens in Manhattan you know... there is a reason why capacity has been boosted on Woodhaven Blvd for buses. How about those commuters from Ozone Park to QCM who has the option to take the slow buses or a circular route via the  to  to  to  or go to Manhattan and back track. The subway does a awesome job connecting outer borough to Manhattan. However intraborough, it does a terrible job. The only places served are usually on the route to Manhattan.

Which is why RBB may be better as a connector to the LIRR and transit deserts in Q and a Bay Ridge to Canarsie crosstown, since it'd relieve some traffic of the Belt and SSP, and the Cross Island.

Going to Manhattan does nothing to enhance capacity, but orienting it towards people who commute to LI and to outer boroughs may make it worth the construction costs and reduce congestion and pollution - even if built as a LRT or busway. And by connecting it to Jamaica, all the Ozone Park folks have easy access to  and  to Manhattan, and both Sixth Av and Broadway via transfer.

[officiallyliam]

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Not everything happens in Manhattan you know... there is a reason why capacity has been boosted on Woodhaven Blvd for buses. How about those commuters from Ozone Park to QCM who has the option to take the slow buses or a circular route via the  to  to  to  or go to Manhattan and back track. The subway does a awesome job connecting outer borough to Manhattan. However intraborough, it does a terrible job. The only places served are usually on the route to Manhattan.

So then why did people along Woodhaven shoot down the proposal for a real, high-capacity BRT solution running in the median of Woodhaven and Cross Bay - something that would be our first real bus rapid transit service (and that could have been light rail later)? Woodhaven Blvd has the space to make its buses not slow, and we chose not to pursue that. Instead we have watered-down "BRT" in the form of Select, which is essentially just a normal bus by world standards, and is apparently still slow.

The Woodhaven Blvd corridor and the RBB corridor are, unfortunately, not one and the same because of the RBB's alignment. The obvious demand on the Woodhaven Blvd corridor does not alone justify the construction of a subway several blocks away.

[RR503]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

Which is why RBB may be better as a connector to the LIRR and transit deserts in Q and a Bay Ridge to Canarsie crosstown, since it'd relieve some traffic of the Belt and SSP, and the Cross Island.

Going to Manhattan does nothing to enhance capacity, but orienting it towards people who commute to LI and to outer boroughs may make it worth the construction costs and reduce congestion and pollution - even if built as a LRT or busway. And by connecting it to Jamaica, all the Ozone Park folks have easy access to  and  to Manhattan, and both Sixth Av and Broadway via transfer.

But you see, the RBB just doesn't hit enough employment centers to be a useful crosstown. I'm 104% with you in that we need crosstowns -- most car trips in NYC are intra-outer borough commutation, but even with a Jamaica connection, the RBB gains you little. People from the  and  corridors can already easily access Jamaica, so really the only constituency you're benefiting is  riders from east of Broadway Junction who are trying to get to Jamaica -- not a big group. 

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Not everything happens in Manhattan you know... there is a reason why capacity has been boosted on Woodhaven Blvd for buses. How about those commuters from Ozone Park to QCM who has the option to take the slow buses or a circular route via the  to  to  to  or go to Manhattan and back track. The subway does a awesome job connecting outer borough to Manhattan. However intraborough, it does a terrible job. The only places served are usually on the route to Manhattan.

Totally with you. Just don't think the RBB is the solution to this. It hits only one major employment center (QB) and comes from an area with low/no density (Woodhaven corridor/the Rockaways). I think the RX should be focused on, not the RBB. Aside from the fact that it intersects every trunk in Brooklyn/Queens at convenient/important points (think about just how good our luck is that the line serves Industry City, 62nd st, Brooklyn College, Broadway Junction, Jackson Heights and Astoria without any modification), the line is close enough to the core to really make a difference. It is in the 'perfect' zone on our Goldilocks scale.

For better or for worse, the creation of outer borough nodes of employment density is predicated on easy access to Manhattan, as that's the economic core of the region -- business has to be done with it, and thus companies will seek areas with easy access to it. Usually, that means building close to it. Look at where real office development has happened in the last few years in the outer boroughs. LIC and Downtown Brooklyn -- basically Manhattan overflow locations with adequate transit.

Lately, the focus has been shifting inwards, to areas that have good Manhattan access, but are also closer to people's homes -- think of the recently announced plan to develop Broadway Jct and environs. That area has access to Manhattan on three distinct corridors, and can gather employees by means of the same, and the LIRR. The RBB's corridor simply doesn't provide locations with that sort of flexibility. No one is gonna build jack shit south of Rockaway Boulevard -- too far from Manhattan. If you want to develop some employment between Rockaway Boulevard and Forest Park, you might as well just build in Jamaica -- you have the  and LIRR there to feed employees. No one will build anything between Forest Park and the Queens Center Mall because there's nothing there.  And if you want to develop something around the QCM, again, you have better options -- Jamaica, because then you have the  and LIRR, or Jackson Heights, where you have the . To provide crosstown type service to Jamaica, you are looking for LRT on Main St. To provide crosstown service to Jackson Heights, build the RX. The RBB just doesn't serve a purpose. So please. Choose something else to advocate for--just not the pontoon bridge. 

[Mtatransit]

35 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

So then why did people along Woodhaven shoot down the proposal for a real, high-capacity BRT solution running in the median of Woodhaven and Cross Bay - something that would be our first real bus rapid transit service (and that could have been light rail later)? Woodhaven Blvd has the space to make its buses not slow, and we chose not to pursue that. Instead we have watered-down "BRT" in the form of Select, which is essentially just a normal bus by world standards, and is apparently still slow.

The Woodhaven Blvd corridor and the RBB corridor are, unfortunately, not one and the same because of the RBB's alignment. The obvious demand on the Woodhaven Blvd corridor does not alone justify the construction of a subway several blocks away.

The SBS eventually is built down the median of Woodhaven Blvd. Everyone on Woodhaven supported the RBB whether it be a busway or subway. Except many also know that MTA will take a few decade to start construction so they settled for SBS.

 

12 minutes ago, RR503 said:

But you see, the RBB just doesn't hit enough employment centers to be a useful crosstown. I'm 104% with you in that we need crosstowns -- most car trips in NYC are intra-outer borough commutation, but even with a Jamaica connection, the RBB gains you little. People from the  and  corridors can already easily access Jamaica, so really the only constituency you're benefiting is  riders from east of Broadway Junction who are trying to get to Jamaica -- not a big group. 

Totally with you. Just don't think the RBB is the solution to this. It hits only one major employment center (QB) and comes from an area with low/no density (Woodhaven corridor/the Rockaways). I think the RX should be focused on, not the RBB. Aside from the fact that it intersects every trunk in Brooklyn/Queens at convenient/important points (think about just how good our luck is that the line serves Industry City, 62nd st, Brooklyn College, Broadway Junction, Jackson Heights and Astoria without any modification), the line is close enough to the core to really make a difference. It is in the 'perfect' zone on our Goldilocks scale.

For better or for worse, the creation of outer borough nodes of employment density is predicated on easy access to Manhattan, as that's the economic core of the region -- business has to be done with it, and thus companies will seek areas with easy access to it. Usually, that means building close to it. Look at where real office development has happened in the last few years in the outer boroughs. LIC and Downtown Brooklyn -- basically Manhattan overflow locations with adequate transit.

Lately, the focus has been shifting inwards, to areas that have good Manhattan access, but are also closer to people's homes -- think of the recently announced plan to develop Broadway Jct and environs. That area has access to Manhattan on three distinct corridors, and can gather employees by means of the same, and the LIRR. The RBB's corridor simply doesn't provide locations with that sort of flexibility. No one is gonna build jack shit south of Rockaway Boulevard -- too far from Manhattan. If you want to develop some employment between Rockaway Boulevard and Forest Park, you might as well just build in Jamaica -- you have the  and LIRR there to feed employees. No one will build anything between Forest Park and the Queens Center Mall because there's nothing there.  And if you want to develop something around the QCM, again, you have better options -- Jamaica, because then you have the  and LIRR, or Jackson Heights, where you have the . To provide crosstown type service to Jamaica, you are looking for LRT on Main St. To provide crosstown service to Jackson Heights, build the RX. The RBB just doesn't serve a purpose. So please. Choose something else to advocate for--just not the pontoon bridge. 

Now I think RBB is a worthwhile project. RBB will encourage more riders in that area of Queens to take the RBB rather than drive (nobody want to deal with the backtrack). It will also connect Northern Queens with Southern Queens, with connection to multiple subway line currently disconnected. RBB doesn't seem like it will have employment centers around the area, but it would act as a feeder to other subway lines like the Franklin Av Shuttle to get to people's homes, as Woodhaven is mostly residential. Is a 10 car train necessary no... is the connection to QBL necessary? No, I will take a transfer at Rego Park. It would increase mobility in Queens as a whole. With additional crosstown buses at Metro Av, Atlantic av, 101 Av, I think the service will do fine ridership wise.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Mtatransit

[Deucey]

13 minutes ago, RR503 said:

But you see, the RBB just doesn't hit enough employment centers to be a useful crosstown. I'm 104% with you in that we need crosstowns -- most car trips in NYC are intra-outer borough commutation, but even with a Jamaica connection, the RBB gains you little. People from the  and  corridors can already easily access Jamaica, so really the only constituency you're benefiting is  riders from east of Broadway Junction who are trying to get to Jamaica -- not a big group. 

Hence the "May be" I posted originally.

We all know that if RBB was worth it as a rail corridor, LIRR wouldn't have abandoned it and NYCTA would've activated it.

 

That fact is lost on many.

 

But in the idea of a crosstown to Jamaica, if it's an LRT from Coney Island through Canarsie to Jamaica and up to the Q/Bx Bridges, it MAY find some usefulness for folks that get stuck on the GCP/NSP and Belt/SSP and the Cross Island during rush hour going towards Garden City. But given at the bridges those folks already have an LIRR line, and at Coney Island it isn't that far a ride to Atlantic Terminal (plus this LRT would cross the LIRR after Nostrand Station), its usefulness might be 20k people a day.

Still not worth building. But as a busway to prove that folks along the Van Wyck need a rail line, sure, why not? If It fails, we can turn it into a HOV toll road or get rid of it and build housing. Or build that park.

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Hence the "May be" I posted originally.

We all know that if RBB was worth it as a rail corridor, LIRR wouldn't have abandoned it and NYCTA would've activated it.

 

That fact is lost on many.

 

But in the idea of a crosstown to Jamaica, if it's an LRT from Coney Island through Canarsie to Jamaica and up to the Q/Bx Bridges, it MAY find some usefulness for folks that get stuck on the GCP/NSP and Belt/SSP and the Cross Island during rush hour going towards Garden City. But given at the bridges those folks already have an LIRR line, and at Coney Island it isn't that far a ride to Atlantic Terminal (plus this LRT would cross the LIRR after Nostrand Station), its usefulness might be 20k people a day.

Still not worth building. But as a busway to prove that folks along the Van Wyck need a rail line, sure, why not? If It fails, we can turn it into a HOV toll road or get rid of it and build housing. Or build that park.

You see... LIRR was looking at every avenue to abandon EVERY SINGLE BRANCH they owned. They were losing money, and because Queens could be replaced by T.A service, they reduced the trip to one trip to Manhattan, and one trip from Manhattan. It has nothing to do with the fact that its not viable. Its just like saying the 3rd Av El was demolished because the BX55 could totally replace it and it was not viable. It is simply the fact that LIRR was bleeding cash and could not afford to maintain any trains hence the state takeover in 1965

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Mtatransit

[RR503]

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Now I think RBB is a worthwhile project. RBB will encourage more riders in that area of Queens to take the RBB rather than drive (nobody want to deal with the backtrack). It will also connect Northern Queens with Southern Queens, with connection to multiple subway line currently disconnected. RBB doesn't seem like it will have employment centers around the area, but it would act as a feeder to other subway lines like the Franklin Av Shuttle to get to people's homes, as Woodhaven is mostly residential. Is a 10 car train necessary no... is the connection to QBL necessary? No, I will take a transfer at Rego Park. It would increase mobility in Queens as a whole. With additional crosstown buses at Metro Av, Atlantic av, 101 Av, I think the service will do fine ridership wise.

The FAS wouldn't exist if the infrastructure it uses hadn't already been built. It is an incidental service. 

Let me reduce this all to a question: why, in this day and age, should we be prioritizing the construction of this feeder, Franklin Avenue-like service over other more useful expansions like the RX, SAS, Utica Ave, and 3rd Ave? That is the essential question of the RBB. 

FWIW, the RX does all the things you say the RBB does better than the RBB while also hitting employment centres -- making it *that* much better of a plan. 

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

But in the idea of a crosstown to Jamaica, if it's an LRT from Coney Island through Canarsie to Jamaica and up to the Q/Bx Bridges, it MAY find some usefulness for folks that get stuck on the GCP/NSP and Belt/SSP and the Cross Island during rush hour going towards Garden City. But given at the bridges those folks already have an LIRR line, and at Coney Island it isn't that far a ride to Atlantic Terminal (plus this LRT would cross the LIRR after Nostrand Station), its usefulness might be 20k people a day.

Still not worth building. But as a busway to prove that folks along the Van Wyck need a rail line, sure, why not? If It fails, we can turn it into a HOV toll road or get rid of it and build housing. Or build that park.

I'm not with you on the busway -- just make Woodhaven better -- but I do think that things like the Canarsie-Jamaica-BX lines need to be looked at. Again, crosstown is the next frontier in NYC transit.

It's a crying shame that the AirTrain had to be done by PANYNJ -- imagine if, in addition to acting as an airport connection, it also served as a subway connection between Howard Beach and Jamaica, with stops along the Van Wyck. That'd be really useful. 

[Coney Island Av]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

You see... LIRR was looking at every avenue to abandon EVERY SINGLE BRANCH they owned. They were losing money, and because Queens could be replaced by T.A service, they reduced the trip to one trip to Manhattan, and one trip from Manhattan. It has nothing to do with the fact that its not viable. Its just like saying the 3rd Av El was demolished because the BX55 could totally replace it and it was not viable. It is simply the fact that LIRR was bleeding cash and could not afford to maintain any trains hence the state takeover in 1965

 

Totally with you. I mean, the Myrtle Elevated was abandoned for the same reason. There's no way it was staying as a result. And as for 3rd, it was demolished because the residents were promised to get a  extension to Gun Hill as the replacement. That obviously didn't happen because the MTA ran out of funding. And the city never intended to let RBB rot, but it was never built. It was because either the MTA didn't have the funds to reactivate the northern half, or it was just forgotten. 

The "it would've been reactivated sooner" nonsense is just like saying, if Hillside Av was dense enough, the  would've been extended to the City Line. It was proposed, but never built. 

So a subway extension on the RBB would be viable and beneficial, but we still have to consider  overcrowding...

Edited February 21, 2018 by Coney Island Av

[Mtatransit]

21 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The FAS wouldn't exist if the infrastructure it uses hadn't already been built. It is an incidental service. 

Let me reduce this all to a question: why, in this day and age, should we be prioritizing the construction of this feeder, Franklin Avenue-like service over other more useful expansions like the RX, SAS, Utica Ave, and 3rd Ave? That is the essential question of the RBB. 

FWIW, the RX does all the things you say the RBB does better than the RBB while also hitting employment centres -- making it *that* much better of a plan. 

Now I agree with you that RX needs to be done. It's just we have freight problem to deal with. The reason why I didn't mention Utica, 3 Av, SAS beyond Phase II was because those project are pure pipe dream. The most realistic project MTA could accomplish for below 10 billion right now is the RX, and RBB. Just because it's a feeder line doesn't mean it shouldn't be built, we even got the ROW for it. This line will improve mobility for millions of Queens residents, especially those who travel North-South and those who use Ridgewood to connect with the subway. Same could be applied to RX, once we find another route for freight to exit the city. Now this shouldn't be a zero sum game. Both of these project will cost less than one phase of SAS. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mtatransit

[officiallyliam]

51 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The FAS wouldn't exist if the infrastructure it uses hadn't already been built. It is an incidental service. 

Let me reduce this all to a question: why, in this day and age, should we be prioritizing the construction of this feeder, Franklin Avenue-like service over other more useful expansions like the RX, SAS, Utica Ave, and 3rd Ave? That is the essential question of the RBB. 

FWIW, the RX does all the things you say the RBB does better than the RBB while also hitting employment centres -- making it *that* much better of a plan. 

I'm not with you on the busway -- just make Woodhaven better -- but I do think that things like the Canarsie-Jamaica-BX lines need to be looked at. Again, crosstown is the next frontier in NYC transit.

It's a crying shame that the AirTrain had to be done by PANYNJ -- imagine if, in addition to acting as an airport connection, it also served as a subway connection between Howard Beach and Jamaica, with stops along the Van Wyck. That'd be really useful. 

I actually drew up a map some time ago of a crosstown LRT system that would incorporate the AirTrain (with infill on the Van Wyck) with the Rx, as well as the otherwise-misguided LGA AirTrain and the Lower Montauk, creating two main crosstown routes and one east-west route.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fl4ghaw7bljrbp0/Interboro LRT Map.jpg?dl=0

The RBB could be incorporated into this as another route between Howard Beach and Astoria or the Bronx, connecting via the LIRR ROW to the Rx line near Queens Blvd.

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by officiallyliam

[officiallyliam]

39 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Now I agree with you that RX needs to be done. It's just we have freight problem to deal with. The reason why I didn't mention Utica, 3 Av, SAS beyond Phase II was because those project are pure pipe dream. The most realistic project MTA could accomplish for below 10 billion right now is the RX, and RBB. Just because it's a feeder line doesn't mean it shouldn't be built, we even got the ROW for it. This line will improve mobility for millions of Queens residents, especially those who travel North-South and those who use Ridgewood to connect with the subway. Same could be applied to RX, once we find another route for freight to exit the city. Now this shouldn't be a zero sum game. Both of these project will cost less than one phase of SAS. 

The freight - Triboro line interaction is manageable. The ROW is mostly wide enough for three tracks, meaning at least one track could be devoted to freight at all times, or at least that passenger trains could have places to pass slow-moving or stopped freights.

As for rolling stock - using FRA-compliant Nippon Sharyo DMUs is the cheapest option, and is the option that doesn't come with FRA traffic regulation problems. However, they need to be longer than 2 cars; we don't want to end up instantly over-capacity. My only concern with these is the acceleration and deceleration performance of DMUs, which usually lags behind EMUs, especially on lines with lots of closely-spaced stops (like Triboro).

The other option that I can think of is to electrify the line with a third rail, and add more trainsets to the Staten Island R211 order. These (I think) will be OKd by the FRA as well, and will have higher capacity and better performance than DMUs. This, though, will come at a higher cost, one electrification is factored in.

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

The SBS eventually is built down the median of Woodhaven Blvd. Everyone on Woodhaven supported the RBB whether it be a busway or subway. Except many also know that MTA will take a few decade to start construction so they settled for SBS.

 

Now I think RBB is a worthwhile project. RBB will encourage more riders in that area of Queens to take the RBB rather than drive (nobody want to deal with the backtrack). It will also connect Northern Queens with Southern Queens, with connection to multiple subway line currently disconnected. RBB doesn't seem like it will have employment centers around the area, but it would act as a feeder to other subway lines like the Franklin Av Shuttle to get to people's homes, as Woodhaven is mostly residential. Is a 10 car train necessary no... is the connection to QBL necessary? No, I will take a transfer at Rego Park. It would increase mobility in Queens as a whole. With additional crosstown buses at Metro Av, Atlantic av, 101 Av, I think the service will do fine ridership wise.

The Franklin shuttle is not a good example of a well-used train line.

The problem is that drivers can go directly to their destination after using Woodhaven, because very few drivers are actually trying to get to places on Woodhaven. The same is not true for the RBB, which is a very poor crosstown; even if you were to build it today, it would have crap transfers to the  , the  , and in Queens, because none of the lines are designed to have transfers there; they all have their express major stations at Woodhaven Blvd itself, which is too far away to build a reasonable walking transfer. And it's quite the slog to get from Rego Park station to Roosevelt to transfer for the  . No driver is going to give up their convenient 1-seat-ride for a slower, more inconvenient 3-seat ride.

If all it's going to be is a subway feeder, it doesn't need to be built, because the subway is already getting fed. This kind of investment is wasteful.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

The freight - Triboro line interaction is manageable. The ROW is mostly wide enough for three tracks, meaning at least one track could be devoted to freight at all times, or at least that passenger trains could have places to pass slow-moving or stopped freights.

As for rolling stock - using FRA-compliant Nippon Sharyo DMUs is the cheapest option, and is the option that doesn't come with FRA traffic regulation problems. However, they need to be longer than 2 cars; we don't want to end up instantly over-capacity. My only concern with these is the acceleration and deceleration performance of DMUs, which usually lags behind EMUs, especially on lines with lots of closely-spaced stops (like Triboro).

The other option that I can think of is to electrify the line with a third rail, and add more trainsets to the Staten Island R211 order. These (I think) will be OKd by the FRA as well, and will have higher capacity and better performance than DMUs. This, though, will come at a higher cost, one electrification is factored in.

IIRC Stadler Flirts are available as well, and are more widely used in general and thus probably better. Triboro could probably live with the equivalent of a 5-car R160 set; most of the platforms are not underground, so they'd be relatively easy to expand.

That being said, the freight conflicts are blown way out of proportion. The Cross Harbor Rail tunnel is about as likely as a bullet train across the Tappan Zee to Stewart International Airport (which is to say it's never going to happen.)

[RR503]

9 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Now I agree with you that RX needs to be done. It's just we have freight problem to deal with. The reason why I didn't mention Utica, 3 Av, SAS beyond Phase II was because those project are pure pipe dream. The most realistic project MTA could accomplish for below 10 billion right now is the RX, and RBB. Just because it's a feeder line doesn't mean it shouldn't be built, we even got the ROW for it. This line will improve mobility for millions of Queens residents, especially those who travel North-South and those who use Ridgewood to connect with the subway. Same could be applied to RX, once we find another route for freight to exit the city. Now this shouldn't be a zero sum game. Both of these project will cost less than one phase of SAS. 

The freight problem is manageable -- see below. 

Your thinking that SAS, 3rd, and Utica are all pipe dreams is frankly what's wrong with the MTA these days. After ESA, they're too afraid to do anything that hasn't been pureed into a zillion phases, or is cheap enough to not make politicos scared. Instead of spending billions on idiotic flights of fancy like ESI and instead allocated our capital budget more strategically to support system expansion, we could have all those new lines. 

And look, while I agree with you that this shouldn't be a zero sum game, it is. The RBB will not serve 'millions,' is a shitty feeder, and really seems like a combination of a foamer pipe dream and a political pork project for Southern Queens. Ergo, don't build it. Use that money where it really will help move the masses. 

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

IIRC Stadler Flirts are available as well, and are more widely used in general and thus probably better. Triboro could probably live with the equivalent of a 5-car R160 set; most of the platforms are not underground, so they'd be relatively easy to expand.

That being said, the freight conflicts are blown way out of proportion. The Cross Harbor Rail tunnel is about as likely as a bullet train across the Tappan Zee to Stewart International Airport (which is to say it's never going to happen.)

TEX Rail's FLIRTs and SMART's GTWs both were FRA certified under waivers. I don't know whether those waivers are transferable, but I have a feeling there'd be some ops conditions imposed. 

The biggest issue with freight is actually neither FRA compliance nor DS 3rd rail clearance. It's Fresh Pond. The yard was never designed to handle all of LI's freight -- that was Yard A's job -- so now, with it handling 30,000+ (and growing) cars per year, the facility is overtaxed. As such, all four tracks of the Bay Ridge Branch are being used as makeshift yard space as far south as Wilson Avenue, a situation that'd have to change if the RX was to work (and no, you couldn't ask them to not operate on the BRB during certain hours -- that's their interchange track, and needs to be in use constantly). If the NYA decided that the RX would have too much of an adverse impact on their yard ops at FP, all they'd have to do is write a letter to the STB objecting to the plan, et voila, RX is sunk on obstruction of interstate commerce grounds. Basically, you'd need to find somewhere where the NYA could build another yard so as to keep FP relatively clear for RX ops.

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, RR503 said:

The freight problem is manageable -- see below. 

Your thinking that SAS, 3rd, and Utica are all pipe dreams is frankly what's wrong with the MTA these days. After ESA, they're too afraid to do anything that hasn't been pureed into a zillion phases, or is cheap enough to not make politicos scared. Instead of spending billions on idiotic flights of fancy like ESI and instead allocated our capital budget more strategically to support system expansion, we could have all those new lines. 

And look, while I agree with you that this shouldn't be a zero sum game, it is. The RBB will not serve 'millions,' is a shitty feeder, and really seems like a combination of a foamer pipe dream and a political pork project for Southern Queens. Ergo, don't build it. Use that money where it really will help move the masses. 

TEX Rail's FLIRTs and SMART's GTWs both were FRA certified under waivers. I don't know whether those waivers are transferable, but I have a feeling there'd be some ops conditions imposed. 

The biggest issue with freight is actually neither FRA compliance nor DS 3rd rail clearance. It's Fresh Pond. The yard was never designed to handle all of LI's freight -- that was Yard A's job -- so now, with it handling 30,000+ (and growing) cars per year, the facility is overtaxed. As such, all four tracks of the Bay Ridge Branch are being used as makeshift yard space as far south as Wilson Avenue, a situation that'd have to change if the RX was to work (and no, you couldn't ask them to not operate on the BRB during certain hours -- that's their interchange track, and needs to be in use constantly). If the NYA decided that the RX would have too much of an adverse impact on their yard ops at FP, all they'd have to do is write a letter to the STB objecting to the plan, et voila, RX is sunk on obstruction of interstate commerce grounds. Basically, you'd need to find somewhere where the NYA could build another yard so as to keep FP relatively clear for RX ops.

Which yard was Yard A? Perhaps we should look into building a yard at, say, Hicksville or Belmont Park. 

Also, alternate compliance is a new rule essentially allowing compliance for the rest of the world's trains.

[LGA Link N Train]

20 hours ago, Deucey said:

We all know that if RBB was worth it as a rail corridor, LIRR wouldn't have abandoned it and NYCTA would've activated it.

Well, if you look back in 1968, the has been trying to reactivate RBB but as LIRR service. This was unsuccessful party due to the fiscal crash of the 1970's. The rest I'm unsure about. 

18 hours ago, RR503 said:

why, in this day and age, should we be prioritizing the construction of this feeder, Franklin Avenue-like service over other more useful expansions like the RX, SAS, Utica Ave, and 3rd Ave? That is the essential question of the RBB. 

Comparing transit projects against one another ain't no way to evaluate transit expansion son. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by LGA Link N train
Accidentally posted without typing what I wanted to say.

[officiallyliam]

36 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

Comparing transit projects against one another ain't no way to evaluate transit expansion son. 

Really?

Then how do we go about evaluating the best ways to spend money now if we aren't learning from the past?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

22 hours ago, RR503 said:

But you see, the RBB just doesn't hit enough employment centers to be a useful crosstown. I'm 104% with you in that we need crosstowns -- most car trips in NYC are intra-outer borough commutation, but even with a Jamaica connection, the RBB gains you little. People from the  and  corridors can already easily access Jamaica, so really the only constituency you're benefiting is  riders from east of Broadway Junction who are trying to get to Jamaica -- not a big group. 

Totally with you. Just don't think the RBB is the solution to this. It hits only one major employment center (QB) and comes from an area with low/no density (Woodhaven corridor/the Rockaways). I think the RX should be focused on, not the RBB. Aside from the fact that it intersects every trunk in Brooklyn/Queens at convenient/important points (think about just how good our luck is that the line serves Industry City, 62nd st, Brooklyn College, Broadway Junction, Jackson Heights and Astoria without any modification), the line is close enough to the core to really make a difference. It is in the 'perfect' zone on our Goldilocks scale.

For better or for worse, the creation of outer borough nodes of employment density is predicated on easy access to Manhattan, as that's the economic core of the region -- business has to be done with it, and thus companies will seek areas with easy access to it. Usually, that means building close to it. Look at where real office development has happened in the last few years in the outer boroughs. LIC and Downtown Brooklyn -- basically Manhattan overflow locations with adequate transit.

Lately, the focus has been shifting inwards, to areas that have good Manhattan access, but are also closer to people's homes -- think of the recently announced plan to develop Broadway Jct and environs. That area has access to Manhattan on three distinct corridors, and can gather employees by means of the same, and the LIRR. The RBB's corridor simply doesn't provide locations with that sort of flexibility. No one is gonna build jack shit south of Rockaway Boulevard -- too far from Manhattan. If you want to develop some employment between Rockaway Boulevard and Forest Park, you might as well just build in Jamaica -- you have the  and LIRR there to feed employees. No one will build anything between Forest Park and the Queens Center Mall because there's nothing there.  And if you want to develop something around the QCM, again, you have better options -- Jamaica, because then you have the  and LIRR, or Jackson Heights, where you have the . To provide crosstown type service to Jamaica, you are looking for LRT on Main St. To provide crosstown service to Jackson Heights, build the RX. The RBB just doesn't serve a purpose. So please. Choose something else to advocate for--just not the pontoon bridge. 

I’ll agree with most of what you’re saying here. But in response to the bolded part - not exactly. There are some existing subway lines the RX would miss because it intersects those lines just out of reach. In Jackson Heights, the rail line misses the  at 74th-Broadway/Roosevelt Ave, as it is located roughly midway between Roosevelt and 65th on the  and just out of reach of 69th St on the . Fortunately, this could be mitigated by having the RX deviate from the rail line into a short subway that could allow for an easy connection to the , possibly by utilizing the never-used upper level platforms and connecting tunnels at Roosevelt. On Vanshnookenragen’s website, he shows how that could be done. 

In Brooklyn, the rail line misses the  by intersecting 4th Ave by running in between 65th St and Shore Road (midway between the Bay Ridge Ave and 59th St stops). It also misses the  by intersecting McDonald Ave roughly midway between 18th Ave and Avenue I. I’m not saying it’s impossible to build connections to those lines, but it will likely require some deviations off the rail line to make them.  The connection to the  at Ditmars-Astoria is another story. With the existing rail line on a super-high concrete arch over the subway there, I’m not really sure how structurally sound it would be to add side platforms to a concrete arch, then connect them to a single narrow island platform with elevator shafts and staircases. And in a very built up area. It might not be feasible and we may have to forgo a connection to the . 

17 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

IIRC Stadler Flirts are available as well, and are more widely used in general and thus probably better. Triboro could probably live with the equivalent of a 5-car R160 set; most of the platforms are not underground, so they'd be relatively easy to expand.

I prefer the Stadler Flirt too, if it’s not feasible to have an FRA-compliant R160- or R211-type train. The Flirt comes in an electro-diesel version as well, which would be great for underground connections to intersecting subway routes. 

10 hours ago, RR503 said:

The freight problem is manageable -- see below. 

Your thinking that SAS, 3rd, and Utica are all pipe dreams is frankly what's wrong with the MTA these days. After ESA, they're too afraid to do anything that hasn't been pureed into a zillion phases, or is cheap enough to not make politicos scared. Instead of spending billions on idiotic flights of fancy like ESI and instead allocated our capital budget more strategically to support system expansion, we could have all those new lines. 

...

The biggest issue with freight is actually neither FRA compliance nor DS 3rd rail clearance. It's Fresh Pond. The yard was never designed to handle all of LI's freight -- that was Yard A's job -- so now, with it handling 30,000+ (and growing) cars per year, the facility is overtaxed. As such, all four tracks of the Bay Ridge Branch are being used as makeshift yard space as far south as Wilson Avenue, a situation that'd have to change if the RX was to work (and no, you couldn't ask them to not operate on the BRB during certain hours -- that's their interchange track, and needs to be in use constantly). If the NYA decided that the RX would have too much of an adverse impact on their yard ops at FP, all they'd have to do is write a letter to the STB objecting to the plan, et voila, RX is sunk on obstruction of interstate commerce grounds. Basically, you'd need to find somewhere where the NYA could build another yard so as to keep FP relatively clear for RX ops.

Is there any space left in LIC to do freight handling? Or has ESA’s consumption of Yard A pretty much put an end to that? Maybe a site in north Brooklyn or Nassau County, then? 

[Lawrence St]

MTA really dosent pay attention when it comes to the Rockaway Line South of Broad Channel. Heck, they're are still old signs there depicting the terminates at 59th Street when it originates from Rockaway Park.

Another thing, why was the the line chosen to operate to Far Rockaway at all times? Wouldn't the from Far Rockaway to Broad Channel be more sensible?