Rockaway Beach Branch

[Art Vandelay]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

It's actually quite reverse that, I asked people the day the Q52/53 SBS went online if they would rather take a train to reach either QBL Nassau or Liberty, and 75% of them said yes. While your right, SAS does take tremendous stress off the Lexingtion Avenue line, the benefit for RBB would greatly help the residents of Woodhaven.

Heck, even extending the shuttle up there and providing a free in system transfer between Parkside and 63rd Drive would see a lot of ridership. It may not happen at once, but I guaantee you the results will show up before the end of the year.

Even if ALL of the Q52/Q53 riders were to move to the train, it still wouldn't mean there is a large enough market to run a train. 

And regardless of the size of the market, they would be out of their minds to build an additional connecting service to Queens Boulevard from a line which already connects to another line without such drastic capacity issues. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

5 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Could you maybe convert the ROW to a highway-speed busway? This could take traffic off Woodhaven as a fast Q52/Q53 would attract more people, and a busway will cost much less and will be easier to reroute over current obstructions.

A busway won’t cost less and won’t be easier to reroute because all the rebuilding that would be required to make the line suitable for rail service would still be required to make it suitable for bus service. Not to mention that parts of the r-o-w would have to be demolished to make paths for the buses to get on and off the busway. Also, buses would have to detour over local streets to get on and off the busway, which would add on to the travel time.

42 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Not really; there's no place to connect the busway on either end, because on one side is active subway tracks, and the other side is the Long Island Railroad. Plus that doesn't actually cost less, since you'd still have to rebuild all the bridges and embankment and whatever.

Right. For everything you’d need to do to make the r-o-w suitable for buses, you might as well do rail. Rail actually would be easier (not necessarily saying we should do it).

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Possibly? I've thought about that, but also think that the value of buses is their direct, street-level service on important corridors. Remember that the RBB is always a couple of blocks away from Woodhaven - even farther through Rego Park -, where the businesses, etc. are. I think the value of the bus would be lessened as a result of it not being on Woodhaven Blvd, but being several blocks away.

LA’s Orange and Silver Lines, and other busways disagree with you.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Deucey

[bobtehpanda]

37 minutes ago, Deucey said:

LA’s Orange and Silver Lines, and other busways disagree with you.

The Orange Line should've been rail, and is not a good busway because it was a very obviously political solution to a technical problem. This isn't even that; if anything, buses are more objectionable in people's backyards than a train.

Of the major cities that have busways, Seattle, Ottawa, and Toronto are actively replacing their busways with light rail, and Los Angeles and Miami are exploring how to do so. Very few major cities have BRT and are okay with it.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The Orange Line should've been rail, and is not a good busway because it was a very obviously political solution to a technical problem. This isn't even that; if anything, buses are more objectionable in people's backyards than a train.

Of the major cities that have busways, Seattle, Ottawa, and Toronto are actively replacing their busways with light rail, and Los Angeles and Miami are exploring how to do so. Very few major cities have BRT and are okay with it.

They’re also in pre-planning to set up the Blue Line as possibly a three-track line between Washington and Wardlow. But, like the Orange line, that’s maybe 20 years away after they get the current sales taxes renewed.

But I like the Orange Line because they built it with provisions to upgrade to LRT, and that the ridership on it - save the Warner Center spur - is high enough by LA standards that LACMTA realize they should’ve, in hindsight, built it as LRT. But they didn’t think the demand for cross-SFV travel was that great.

That could happen with RBB, but I just don’t see a huge demand, based on travel patterns on the Van Wyck and other freeways there, that it warrants heavy rail. And given how the  is, I doubt  or the City would want to commit to a rail line that could be heavily underutilized, while a grade-separated BRT could make the case.

And if it doesn’t, the busway could be turned into a toll road like the LA Silver Line is on the Harbor and San Bernardino freeways.

EDIT: Silver Line is HOV; Riverside Freeway is the toll road HOV.

But, an express toll road on RBB from the Belt to GCP could bring in a good amount of money to spend on transit.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Deucey

[bobtehpanda]

8 minutes ago, Deucey said:

They’re also in pre-planning to set up the Blue Line as possibly a three-track line between Washington and Wardlow. But, like the Orange line, that’s maybe 20 years away after they get the current sales taxes renewed.

But I like the Orange Line because they built it with provisions to upgrade to LRT, and that the ridership on it - save the Warner Center spur - is high enough by LA standards that LACMTA realize they should’ve, in hindsight, built it as LRT. But they didn’t think the demand for cross-SFV travel was that great.

That could happen with RBB, but I just don’t see a huge demand, based on travel patterns on the Van Wyck and other freeways there, that it warrants heavy rail. And given how the  is, I doubt  or the City would want to commit to a rail line that could be heavily underutilized, while a grade-separated BRT could make the case.

And if it doesn’t, the busway could be turned into a toll road like the LA Silver Line is on the Harbor and San Bernardino freeways.

EDIT: Silver Line is HOV; Riverside Freeway is the toll road HOV.

But, an express toll road on RBB from the Belt to GCP could bring in a good amount of money to spend on transit.

There's not enough room for any decently sized toll-road. In fact, given that buses move side-to-side, the right of way may not even be wide enough for a busway compared to a railway.

Plus, there's the question on how the hell you would connect it back to the road network. Even as a rail line, RBB is a bit out of the way; transfers to the and are out of the way at best, and it's not a great place to have bus connections. As a busway, it's a disaster, since the right of way stops south of the Long Island Railroad and several blocks from Queens Blvd, and on its southern end it's not close to any major roads that would let buses continue on in a meaningful direction, to say nothing of the fact that you are also now working a road into the railway junction currently used by the to Rockaway. You'd essentially be building a very fast road between two bottlenecks that already have a good connection.

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, RR503 said:

This is the thing. As has been documented ad nauseum  in previous pages, the ridership base along the RBB -- especially when compared to other needy corridors in NYC -- is simply not big enough to justify the necessary investment -- again, especially when there are other places to spend the $$$.

I really recommend you read back through this discussion. All of your arguments have been addressed before. 

I've read the whole message board, and I see the suffering we have to go through in order to get to major subway lines. My point is that MTA is sitting on a project that can benefit commuters so massively, and they don't even have to built it from scratch, they just need to rebuild it.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I've read the whole message board, and I see the suffering we have to go through in order to get to major subway lines. My point is that MTA is sitting on a project that can benefit commuters so massively, and they don't even have to built it from scratch, they just need to rebuild it.

If you think that, you obviously haven't read the "entire message board." 

We have demonstrated not only that the population that would benefit from the RBB is too small to justify its existence, and that the work needed to be done is so extreme that it may as well be being built from scratch, but also that it frankly wouldn't even lessen commute times all that much. 

I suggest you read again, this time carefully, and non-selectively.  

[officiallyliam]

15 hours ago, Deucey said:

LA’s Orange and Silver Lines, and other busways disagree with you.

As others have pointed out, the Orange Line actually does agree with me - the BRT setup has left the corridor underserved and is currently being considered for an LRT upgrade. What's the point of doing BRT on Rockaway if we're going to be here several years from now talking about how it should have been rail?And the Orange Line Busway, unlike Rockaway, isn't awkwardly bookended by rail tracks. 

RBB should be rail. The problem is that in reality there are several other projects - including getting the existing network back to a state of good repair and ending the rolling stock shortage - that have to come before RBB. If we want a rail project in Queens that can be done on existing ROW, the Triboro Rx is of far greater value, simply because of its better connections to other lines and its independence from crowded trunk lines. 

If/when the QBL CBTC project is done, and, ideally, a bypass similar to the Program for Action plan is built, we will be looking at a situation of surplus capacity on the Queens-Manhattan lines. That is the point when RBB service can be seriously considered. We shouldn't rush into it now and end up with poor-quality BRT or a low-capacity subway that we're just going to regret and have to spend money to replace or upgrade a decade or less after it opens.

Edited February 6, 2018 by officiallyliam

[Coney Island Av]

I'm now gonna explain the benefits of RBB being built, because we're all stuck in an endless swamp of negatives.

EDIT: Please delete, accidentally posted before listing reasons.

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Coney Island Av

[Coney Island Av]

I'm now going to explain the positives of RBB being built, seeing as how we're stuck thinking about the negative sides of things:

1) The Q52/53 haven't changed at all. Buses will do nothing to accurately serve/cater to these folks, who arguably want a rail. Despite the "Woodhaven Bus Lanes" traffic is still prevalent in many major streets, and Woodhaven is one of them. The Q52/53 SBS haven't changed due to traffic, and bus lanes were arguably a waste because of it. It'll still take half an hour to get to Woodhaven-Queens Mall because of this. That's greater time than it takes to get from 14 St to 145 St on the , which is 20 minutes. Also, do you wonder why there's a MULTITUDE of buses (the Q11, Q21, Q52/53 SBS, QM15, QM16, QM17) running down Woodhaven is because the area is actually dense enough! If the area really wasn't dense, then all those buses wouldn't have been serving the area, and it would've only been one bus. And don't say Woodhaven is different because 1) it's only a mile from the controversial ROW, and 2) many people, even from the RBB itself, cram onto the buses. 

2) A lot of ya'll seem to disregard additional projects that will be constructed in conjunction to RBB. Many of you seem that the  will experience 53 St congestion because of feeding the passengers into QBL. You completely seem to forgot converting Woodhaven into an express station. This isn't about extra TPH- it's to handle the crowding condition. Many riders transferring from the buses have to pack onto the . Make Woodhaven express, and it will handle the passengers fine, and will lessen the crowding condition at Roosevelt, thus making BOTH the former and latter options for express service. Way into the distant future, we could then have a bypass, with a turquoise , therefore adding a new, high-speed route to Manhattan from Eastern Jamaica. 

3) The  is often regarded as "a pointless line that doesn't even touch the metropolis." The reason that people think this way is because of ridership, reliability, and lack of connections. However, these changes can be revoked. New connections could be built between Fulton St-Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, and Broadway-Lorimer or a new Union Av stop), allowing connections to the . This will make the  get a lot more ridership, therefore solving the second issue. But we're missing another core connection- a connection to the  at Queens Plaza, and even the  at 74 St-Broadway. Those two stations have a lot of ridership, and you may say, "it's impossible to run it there because it will reduce Manhattan-bound service!" However, RBB, if built, will allow the one of the two QBL locals, the , to diverge east of 63 Dr-Rego Park. This frees up terminal capacity at Forest Hills, and will therefore allow the  to be reextended to 71 Av. This will reduce, but not completely negate, the conga line. The  will gain even more ridership in doing so, and allow direct crosstown service between Brooklyn-Queens. It's the same reason why the  was extended to Church.

4) This line is actually a crucial crosstown. Let''s say you wanted to go from, say, Long Island City to the Rockaways. Currently, you have to take the  to Manhattan, and have to go on a suburb tour on the  through Brooklyn, just to go to the beach. But if RBB was constructed, there will just be a diagonal path to the Rockaways. None of this backtracking, going through Brooklyn nonsense. Just take the , and you're good to go. 

5) Other projects involving the use of RBB, such as a highway, a roadway, or even a light-rail, are 99.9% nigh impossible to build. Firstly, the ROW links into the , and is provisioned onto the . Constructing light-rail will be impossible because an elevated structure will have to be built, and there will be even more opposition to it, than if it was subway. Making it a highway or roadway is also impossible because highways are more disruptive than subway lines/elevateds. It would be even worse if you heard the sound of cars zooming by right out your window. Finally, converting to LIRR is off the boat because people from Howard Beach/Rockaways won't tolerate high LIRR fares, and it will only see/meet the same fate as a result of barely any ridership. And what if someone has atrocious driving skills and crashed into your backyard! This is why, if RBB is reactivated, has to be subway. Not a highway or roadway, and even a return of LIRR. 

6) Most of you who criticize the RBB, aren't even regular people who use that line on a daily basis. I want to people to explain what exactly happens on a daily basis, when riding QBL. Daily commuters, such as @N6 Limited and @LGA Link N train, who use QBL on a daily basis should explain what actually happens. People don't have to flee or bail for the . That's just like saying if the  was extended to Lefferts, everyone would bail for the . The locals do have capacity to spare, and don't say the  is congested because it does have capacity to spare. Maybe not a lot, but in some form or another, it will.

Keep in mind, the Dyre Av line was already constructed, and I expect the RBB to be no different! I'm sure if we were discussing about the Dyre Av line before it was built, we would run into the same problems: overcrowding and low-density. But here we are, in the present, and Dyre was constructed already. 

The , despite having busy usage at 3 Av-149 St, and immense crowding on the congested Lex, can actually handle the crowds coming from Dyre! And the IRT Lex is a more busy corridor than QBL, so the  can definitely handle the crowds coming from RBB.

Piece the analogy together like this: the , despite feeding into the QBL, which is congested, and also has busy usage at Roosevelt, can actually handle the crowds coming from RBB! 

But it doesn't end there, also the  has this too! The , despite being full from Grant Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle, and having to experience high usage at 42 St-PABT, Chambers St, and Jay St-MetroTech, can actually handle the passengers coming from the Rockaways! Rinse and repeat. The lines that are described as "full and overwhelmed" have capacity to spare as evidenced as what I wrote. 

So in conclusion, the RBB is dense enough, the best option, and has capacity to spare, just like the Dyre Av line. Whew, that was a long post. 

 

[Deucey]

On 2/6/2018 at 3:21 PM, officiallyliam said:

As others have pointed out, the Orange Line actually does agree with me - the BRT setup has left the corridor underserved and is currently being considered for an LRT upgrade. What's the point of doing BRT on Rockaway if we're going to be here several years from now talking about how it should have been rail?And the Orange Line Busway, unlike Rockaway, isn't awkwardly bookended by rail tracks. 

RBB should be rail. The problem is that in reality there are several other projects - including getting the existing network back to a state of good repair and ending the rolling stock shortage - that have to come before RBB. If we want a rail project in Queens that can be done on existing ROW, the Triboro Rx is of far greater value, simply because of its better connections to other lines and its independence from crowded trunk lines. 

If/when the QBL CBTC project is done, and, ideally, a bypass similar to the Program for Action plan is built, we will be looking at a situation of surplus capacity on the Queens-Manhattan lines. That is the point when RBB service can be seriously considered. We shouldn't rush into it now and end up with poor-quality BRT or a low-capacity subway that we're just going to regret and have to spend money to replace or upgrade a decade or less after it opens.

LRT on the Orange Line is a long-term thing for Metro - 2030s at the earliest. And they couldn’t build it as LRT because of laws and ordinances that prevented using federal and state funds and creating taxes for rail (because of the old RTD acting like  and pissing away money on the Red Line) until they were repealed in the 00’s.

Now they’re upgrading part of it to an elevated roadway to get more capacity for the buses AND semi-lobbying CPUC to allow 65 ft buses because of ridership/demand.

So there’s that.

RBB is a nice-to-have but won’t be utilized enough to justify rail because it doesn’t do anything more effectively than taking the  or the QBL. But put a BRT on it so folks in Ozone Park can get to QBL, JFK or the  faster, and you’ve now made it worth the construction cost.

Let’s not ignore that if rail on it was a good idea, LIRR would’ve fixed it after the fire or NYCTA would’ve ran trains on it instead of letting it fall apart.

[officiallyliam]

9 minutes ago, Deucey said:

LRT on the Orange Line is a long-term thing for Metro - 2030s at the earliest. And they couldn’t build it as LRT because of laws and ordinances that prevented using federal and state funds and creating taxes for rail (because of the old RTD acting like  and pissing away money on the Red Line) until they were repealed in the 00’s.

Now they’re upgrading part of it to an elevated roadway to get more capacity for the buses AND semi-lobbying CPUC to allow 65 ft buses because of ridership/demand.

So there’s that.

RBB is a nice-to-have but won’t be utilized enough to justify rail because it doesn’t do anything more effectively than taking the  or the QBL. But put a BRT on it so folks in Ozone Park can get to QBL, JFK or the  faster, and you’ve now made it worth the construction cost.

Let’s not ignore that if rail on it was a good idea, LIRR would’ve fixed it after the fire or NYCTA would’ve ran trains on it instead of letting it fall apart.

So then explain to me the logistics of BRT on the Rockaway Branch, and why buses should be diverted from Woodhaven to the ROW. How are we getting buses on and off of the ROW (at both Rego Park and Ozone Park ends)? How do you make up for the fact that you've just taken away easy transfers to the and due to the nature of the ROW being several blocks from Woodhaven Blvd, and the fact that the fastest, most frequent routes will no longer serve a dense commercial corridor? Are we diverting all the Woodhaven Blvd buses to the RBB, or just the 52/53? These questions, I believe, make Rockaway BRT much less worth it.

Compare this to the rail option. There are lines on both sides of the ROW for  a new route to slot into. It is less important that it is a few blocks offset from the main attraction corridor of Woodhaven Blvd, as it serves a different market to buses: faster, express traffic to western Queens and Manhattan instead of the local traffic that buses do better. If people hadn't shot down proper median-running BRT on Woodhaven Blvd, that would be the option I would pursue in the short term. If we're doing anything with the ROW itself, though, it should be rail. It simply makes more logistical sense.

[bobtehpanda]

15 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

I'm now going to explain the positives of RBB being built, seeing as how we're stuck thinking about the negative sides of things:

1) The Q52/53 haven't changed at all. Buses will do nothing to accurately serve/cater to these folks, who arguably want a rail. Despite the "Woodhaven Bus Lanes" traffic is still prevalent in many major streets, and Woodhaven is one of them. The Q52/53 SBS haven't changed due to traffic, and bus lanes were arguably a waste because of it. It'll still take half an hour to get to Woodhaven-Queens Mall because of this. That's greater time than it takes to get from 14 St to 145 St on the , which is 20 minutes. Also, do you wonder why there's a MULTITUDE of buses (the Q11, Q21, Q52/53 SBS, QM15, QM16, QM17) running down Woodhaven is because the area is actually dense enough! If the area really wasn't dense, then all those buses wouldn't have been serving the area, and it would've only been one bus. And don't say Woodhaven is different because 1) it's only a mile from the controversial ROW, and 2) many people, even from the RBB itself, cram onto the buses. 

2) A lot of ya'll seem to disregard additional projects that will be constructed in conjunction to RBB. Many of you seem that the  will experience 53 St congestion because of feeding the passengers into QBL. You completely seem to forgot converting Woodhaven into an express station. This isn't about extra TPH- it's to handle the crowding condition. Many riders transferring from the buses have to pack onto the . Make Woodhaven express, and it will handle the passengers fine, and will lessen the crowding condition at Roosevelt, thus making BOTH the former and latter options for express service. Way into the distant future, we could then have a bypass, with a turquoise , therefore adding a new, high-speed route to Manhattan from Eastern Jamaica. 

3) The  is often regarded as "a pointless line that doesn't even touch the metropolis." The reason that people think this way is because of ridership, reliability, and lack of connections. However, these changes can be revoked. New connections could be built between Fulton St-Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, and Broadway-Lorimer or a new Union Av stop), allowing connections to the . This will make the  get a lot more ridership, therefore solving the second issue. But we're missing another core connection- a connection to the  at Queens Plaza, and even the  at 74 St-Broadway. Those two stations have a lot of ridership, and you may say, "it's impossible to run it there because it will reduce Manhattan-bound service!" However, RBB, if built, will allow the one of the two QBL locals, the , to diverge east of 63 Dr-Rego Park. This frees up terminal capacity at Forest Hills, and will therefore allow the  to be reextended to 71 Av. This will reduce, but not completely negate, the conga line. The  will gain even more ridership in doing so, and allow direct crosstown service between Brooklyn-Queens. It's the same reason why the  was extended to Church.

4) This line is actually a crucial crosstown. Let''s say you wanted to go from, say, Long Island City to the Rockaways. Currently, you have to take the  to Manhattan, and have to go on a suburb tour on the  through Brooklyn, just to go to the beach. But if RBB was constructed, there will just be a diagonal path to the Rockaways. None of this backtracking, going through Brooklyn nonsense. Just take the , and you're good to go. 

5) Other projects involving the use of RBB, such as a highway, a roadway, or even a light-rail, are 99.9% nigh impossible to build. Firstly, the ROW links into the , and is provisioned onto the . Constructing light-rail will be impossible because an elevated structure will have to be built, and there will be even more opposition to it, than if it was subway. Making it a highway or roadway is also impossible because highways are more disruptive than subway lines/elevateds. It would be even worse if you heard the sound of cars zooming by right out your window. Finally, converting to LIRR is off the boat because people from Howard Beach/Rockaways won't tolerate high LIRR fares, and it will only see/meet the same fate as a result of barely any ridership. And what if someone has atrocious driving skills and crashed into your backyard! This is why, if RBB is reactivated, has to be subway. Not a highway or roadway, and even a return of LIRR. 

6) Most of you who criticize the RBB, aren't even regular people who use that line on a daily basis. I want to people to explain what exactly happens on a daily basis, when riding QBL. Daily commuters, such as @N6 Limited and @LGA Link N train, who use QBL on a daily basis should explain what actually happens. People don't have to flee or bail for the . That's just like saying if the  was extended to Lefferts, everyone would bail for the . The locals do have capacity to spare, and don't say the  is congested because it does have capacity to spare. Maybe not a lot, but in some form or another, it will.

Keep in mind, the Dyre Av line was already constructed, and I expect the RBB to be no different! I'm sure if we were discussing about the Dyre Av line before it was built, we would run into the same problems: overcrowding and low-density. But here we are, in the present, and Dyre was constructed already. 

The , despite having busy usage at 3 Av-149 St, and immense crowding on the congested Lex, can actually handle the crowds coming from Dyre! And the IRT Lex is a more busy corridor than QBL, so the  can definitely handle the crowds coming from RBB.

Piece the analogy together like this: the , despite feeding into the QBL, which is congested, and also has busy usage at Roosevelt, can actually handle the crowds coming from RBB! 

But it doesn't end there, also the  has this too! The , despite being full from Grant Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle, and having to experience high usage at 42 St-PABT, Chambers St, and Jay St-MetroTech, can actually handle the passengers coming from the Rockaways! Rinse and repeat. The lines that are described as "full and overwhelmed" have capacity to spare as evidenced as what I wrote. 

So in conclusion, the RBB is dense enough, the best option, and has capacity to spare, just like the Dyre Av line. Whew, that was a long post. 

 

General points - the percentage of a post in bold is usually inversely proportional to the amount of value in a post, and I still see the rule in play here.

1. The capacity on a train is way higher than a bus, and the Q52 isn't even the craziest bus line in the borough. The express bus serves a completely different purpose, so counting that also doesn't count, because then otherwise why do we even run lines like the BxM4? Also, a mile is well out of the walkshed for a normal rail stop; nobody is walking twenty minutes to the train as part of a commute.

2. Someone's missing the point again. The issue is not platform congestion at Roosevelt (although that is an issue). All those and trains are full. And if you think all those RBB riders are content to scrape the wall in local trains that have plenty of room, I have a bridge to sell you. Trains getting too full means being held longer in stations cause the doors can't close, people getting passed up on the platforms, etc. 

3. The is not useless as a crosstown because it doesn't go to Manhattan, it's useless because by the time you get to the you're already basically in Manhattan. The  is never more than two stops away from Manhattan on a connecting line. Also, it's a terrible idea to have three full services share a line: the 60th St tunnel is such a paragon of reliability.

4. You ever heard of "cost-benefit analysis"? If we build a helipad right next to my house and right next to my work, I'd have a better path. That doesn't make it worth the money.

5. It's interesting that for this reason, all cost benefit analyses have a "do nothing" option. Sometimes doing nothing is more cost-effective than doing something.

6. I used the and every day. It was packed leaving Forest Hills every day. Every local stop was a shit show with lots of passengers from local trains trying to squeeze into the express. RBB would make that worse. There's only capacity to spare by passing up existing riders.

The RBB is a selfish project for people who for the most part aren't even in a subway desert. Most of the route is already in the catchment of the and the  ; all it does is f**k over existing riders for the benefits of a few.

[BreeddekalbL]

I would like to also add that if you want to start any rbb service you have to expand woodhaven to express the time is almost here.

[LGA Link N Train]

20 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I would like to also add that if you want to start any rbb service you have to expand woodhaven to express the time is almost here.

Woodhaven REALLY needs to be an express station though. It's a Really good place and a dense area as well. But something I'm trying to figure out is. If RBB was built, how would QBL G.O.'s affect it since my home stop is 63 Drive - Rego Park. Would the whole line 

1) be decommissioned during certain G.O.'s

2) need a new switch in advance of these G.O.'so

3) Would that tunnel section need to be reworked

4) would the tracks and signals of 63 Drive need to be in mint condition

[Wallyhorse]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:32 PM, Coney Island Av said:

I'm now going to explain the positives of RBB being built, seeing as how we're stuck thinking about the negative sides of things:

1) The Q52/53 haven't changed at all. Buses will do nothing to accurately serve/cater to these folks, who arguably want a rail. Despite the "Woodhaven Bus Lanes" traffic is still prevalent in many major streets, and Woodhaven is one of them. The Q52/53 SBS haven't changed due to traffic, and bus lanes were arguably a waste because of it. It'll still take half an hour to get to Woodhaven-Queens Mall because of this. That's greater time than it takes to get from 14 St to 145 St on the A, which is 20 minutes. Also, do you wonder why there's a MULTITUDE of buses (the Q11, Q21, Q52/53 SBS, QM15, QM16, QM17) running down Woodhaven is because the area is actually dense enough! If the area really wasn't dense, then all those buses wouldn't have been serving the area, and it would've only been one bus. And don't say Woodhaven is different because 1) it's only a mile from the controversial ROW, and 2) many people, even from the RBB itself, cram onto the buses. 

2) A lot of ya'll seem to disregard additional projects that will be constructed in conjunction to RBB. Many of you seem that the E/F will experience 53 St congestion because of feeding the passengers into QBL. You completely seem to forgot converting Woodhaven into an express station. This isn't about extra TPH- it's to handle the crowding condition. Many riders transferring from the buses have to pack onto the M/R. Make Woodhaven express, and it will handle the passengers fine, and will lessen the crowding condition at Roosevelt, thus making BOTH the former and latter options for express service. Way into the distant future, we could then have a bypass, with a turquoise V, therefore adding a new, high-speed route to Manhattan from Eastern Jamaica. 

3) The G is often regarded as "a pointless line that doesn't even touch the metropolis." The reason that people think this way is because of ridership, reliability, and lack of connections. However, these changes can be revoked. New connections could be built between Fulton St-Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, and Broadway-Lorimer or a new Union Av stop), allowing connections to the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R/J/M. This will make the G get a lot more ridership, therefore solving the second issue. But we're missing another core connection- a connection to the R at Queens Plaza, and even the 7 at 74 St-Broadway. Those two stations have a lot of ridership, and you may say, "it's impossible to run it there because it will reduce Manhattan-bound service!" However, RBB, if built, will allow the one of the two QBL locals, the M, to diverge east of 63 Dr-Rego Park. This frees up terminal capacity at Forest Hills, and will therefore allow the G to be reextended to 71 Av. This will reduce, but not completely negate, the conga line. The G will gain even more ridership in doing so, and allow direct crosstown service between Brooklyn-Queens. It's the same reason why the G was extended to Church.

4) This line is actually a crucial crosstown. Let''s say you wanted to go from, say, Long Island City to the Rockaways. Currently, you have to take the E to Manhattan, and have to go on a suburb tour on the A through Brooklyn, just to go to the beach. But if RBB was constructed, there will just be a diagonal path to the Rockaways. None of this backtracking, going through Brooklyn nonsense. Just take the M, and you're good to go. 

5) Other projects involving the use of RBB, such as a highway, a roadway, or even a light-rail, are 99.9% nigh impossible to build. Firstly, the ROW links into the A, and is provisioned onto the M. Constructing light-rail will be impossible because an elevated structure will have to be built, and there will be even more opposition to it, than if it was subway. Making it a highway or roadway is also impossible because highways are more disruptive than subway lines/elevateds. It would be even worse if you heard the sound of cars zooming by right out your window. Finally, converting to LIRR is off the boat because people from Howard Beach/Rockaways won't tolerate high LIRR fares, and it will only see/meet the same fate as a result of barely any ridership. And what if someone has atrocious driving skills and crashed into your backyard! This is why, if RBB is reactivated, has to be subway. Not a highway or roadway, and even a return of LIRR. 

6) Most of you who criticize the RBB, aren't even regular people who use that line on a daily basis. I want to people to explain what exactly happens on a daily basis, when riding QBL. Daily commuters, such as @N6 Limited and @LGA Link N train, who use QBL on a daily basis should explain what actually happens. People don't have to flee or bail for the E/F. That's just like saying if the C was extended to Lefferts, everyone would bail for the A. The locals do have capacity to spare, and don't say the E is congested because it does have capacity to spare. Maybe not a lot, but in some form or another, it will.

Keep in mind, the Dyre Av line was already constructed, and I expect the RBB to be no different! I'm sure if we were discussing about the Dyre Av line before it was built, we would run into the same problems: overcrowding and low-density. But here we are, in the present, and Dyre was constructed already. 

The 5, despite having busy usage at 3 Av-149 St, and immense crowding on the congested Lex, can actually handle the crowds coming from Dyre! And the IRT Lex is a more busy corridor than QBL, so the M can definitely handle the crowds coming from RBB.

Piece the analogy together like this: the M, despite feeding into the QBL, which is congested, and also has busy usage at Roosevelt, can actually handle the crowds coming from RBB! 

But it doesn't end there, also the A has this too! The A, despite being full from Grant Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle, and having to experience high usage at 42 St-PABT, Chambers St, and Jay St-MetroTech, can actually handle the passengers coming from the Rockaways! Rinse and repeat. The lines that are described as "full and overwhelmed" have capacity to spare as evidenced as what I wrote. 

So in conclusion, the RBB is dense enough, the best option, and has capacity to spare, just like the Dyre Av line. Whew, that was a long post. 

There is a ton of truth here!  The major differences I do with this are these:

The becomes a 24/7 route from Whitehall Street to Rockaway Park via the RBB and running on QB with late nights the line starting at 34th Street-Herald Square. 

The returns to being a 24/7 Line between 95th Street-Bay Ridge and Ditmars Boulevard as it was prior to 1987.  Any yard runs on the would be to and from Bay Parkway via the West End before heading straight to Coney Island Yard from there.  Those yard runs would be noted in ALL schedules.

The becomes a part-time line to Astoria (5:30 AM-10:30 PM Monday through Friday), with late nights and weekends the going to 96th and 2nd with the .  

Biggest change here is the presence of a Broadway line option to JFK doing it this way.  It also increases late-night service on Broadway and the SAS (as the and would both be going to 96th and 2nd nights and weekends PLUS the would be running in Manhattan from 34th Street northward late nights in this scenario).  

Other than that, I do agree with this setup and how the RBB would benefit.  That said, I do think you would need to potentially extend the and in Queens to Union Turnpike if not extending one or both to 179th (to prevent the RBB line from being caught up in conga lines for trains terminating at 71-Continental), with the side benefit of allowing the to become a full-time express to 179 in the latter case and increasing service overall to 179.

[Mtatransit]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:32 PM, Coney Island Av said:

I'm now going to explain the positives of RBB being built, seeing as how we're stuck thinking about the negative sides of things:

1) The Q52/53 haven't changed at all. Buses will do nothing to accurately serve/cater to these folks, who arguably want a rail. Despite the "Woodhaven Bus Lanes" traffic is still prevalent in many major streets, and Woodhaven is one of them. The Q52/53 SBS haven't changed due to traffic, and bus lanes were arguably a waste because of it. It'll still take half an hour to get to Woodhaven-Queens Mall because of this. That's greater time than it takes to get from 14 St to 145 St on the , which is 20 minutes. Also, do you wonder why there's a MULTITUDE of buses (the Q11, Q21, Q52/53 SBS, QM15, QM16, QM17) running down Woodhaven is because the area is actually dense enough! If the area really wasn't dense, then all those buses wouldn't have been serving the area, and it would've only been one bus. And don't say Woodhaven is different because 1) it's only a mile from the controversial ROW, and 2) many people, even from the RBB itself, cram onto the buses.                                                                                           1) Woodhaven Blvd is a extremely busy corridor, there is no doubt the abandoned railway should be built. The reason the bus lanes are there is to improve the corridor in the short run, as most likely it won't be finished in 10-30 years 

2) A lot of ya'll seem to disregard additional projects that will be constructed in conjunction to RBB. Many of you seem that the  will experience 53 St congestion because of feeding the passengers into QBL. You completely seem to forgot converting Woodhaven into an express station. This isn't about extra TPH- it's to handle the crowding condition. Many riders transferring from the buses have to pack onto the . Make Woodhaven express, and it will handle the passengers fine, and will lessen the crowding condition at Roosevelt, thus making BOTH the former and latter options for express service. Way into the distant future, we could then have a bypass, with a turquoise , therefore adding a new, high-speed route to Manhattan from Eastern Jamaica.                                                                                                                                               2) I don't think the  and  could handle the additional ridership. Woodhaven Blvd should stay a local station, to distribute ridership like the  express .We need the bypass before any increases in QBL service. Many transfer from buses at Woodhaven, however theres worse crowding at Roosevelt from buses and the  there. 

3) The  is often regarded as "a pointless line that doesn't even touch the metropolis." The reason that people think this way is because of ridership, reliability, and lack of connections. However, these changes can be revoked. New connections could be built between Fulton St-Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, and Broadway-Lorimer or a new Union Av stop), allowing connections to the . This will make the  get a lot more ridership, therefore solving the second issue. But we're missing another core connection- a connection to the  at Queens Plaza, and even the  at 74 St-Broadway. Those two stations have a lot of ridership, and you may say, "it's impossible to run it there because it will reduce Manhattan-bound service!" However, RBB, if built, will allow the one of the two QBL locals, the , to diverge east of 63 Dr-Rego Park. This frees up terminal capacity at Forest Hills, and will therefore allow the  to be reextended to 71 Av. This will reduce, but not completely negate, the conga line. The  will gain even more ridership in doing so, and allow direct crosstown service between Brooklyn-Queens. It's the same reason why the  was extended to Church.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       3) Transfers definitely should be built on the  to improve connections. I am not so sure about the extension to Forest Hills though. I think that all local should be extended to 179th St, because Forest Hills is just a really bad terminal. With the way QBL is right now, I wouldn't risk the reliability of the  . People could transfer to the  at Court Sq.

4) This line is actually a crucial crosstown. Let''s say you wanted to go from, say, Long Island City to the Rockaways. Currently, you have to take the  to Manhattan, and have to go on a suburb tour on the  through Brooklyn, just to go to the beach. But if RBB was constructed, there will just be a diagonal path to the Rockaways. None of this backtracking, going through Brooklyn nonsense. Just take the , and you're good to go.                                                                                                                                                4) No doubt it would solve the crosstown problem. Ahhh If only Bronx has one going down Fordham Road... 

5) Other projects involving the use of RBB, such as a highway, a roadway, or even a light-rail, are 99.9% nigh impossible to build. Firstly, the ROW links into the , and is provisioned onto the . Constructing light-rail will be impossible because an elevated structure will have to be built, and there will be even more opposition to it, than if it was subway. Making it a highway or roadway is also impossible because highways are more disruptive than subway lines/elevateds. It would be even worse if you heard the sound of cars zooming by right out your window. Finally, converting to LIRR is off the boat because people from Howard Beach/Rockaways won't tolerate high LIRR fares, and it will only see/meet the same fate as a result of barely any ridership. And what if someone has atrocious driving skills and crashed into your backyard! This is why, if RBB is reactivated, has to be subway. Not a highway or roadway, and even a return of LIRR. 

6) Most of you who criticize the RBB, aren't even regular people who use that line on a daily basis. I want to people to explain what exactly happens on a daily basis, when riding QBL. Daily commuters, such as @N6 Limited and @LGA Link N train, who use QBL on a daily basis should explain what actually happens. People don't have to flee or bail for the . That's just like saying if the  was extended to Lefferts, everyone would bail for the . The locals do have capacity to spare, and don't say the  is congested because it does have capacity to spare. Maybe not a lot, but in some form or another, it will.                                                                                                                         6) QBL is congested. There is simply NO WAY to add more express service. In fact they regularly divert the express down the local track to ease congestion. People do leave the locals at the first opportunity, (Roosevelt Ave). Believe it or not if  is extended to Lefferts, a lot of people will stay on the express to the last possible transfer point, and vice versa. QBL is a S***hole right now. Delays and signal problem every other day

Keep in mind, the Dyre Av line was already constructed, and I expect the RBB to be no different! I'm sure if we were discussing about the Dyre Av line before it was built, we would run into the same problems: overcrowding and low-density. But here we are, in the present, and Dyre was constructed already. 

The , despite having busy usage at 3 Av-149 St, and immense crowding on the congested Lex, can actually handle the crowds coming from Dyre! And the IRT Lex is a more busy corridor than QBL, so the  can definitely handle the crowds coming from RBB.                                                                                                                                          Locals definitely could handle the extra ridership. However when they transfer at Roosevelt Av to the express, I'm afraid the  can't handle it. Which is like people at 125 Street all running from the  to the express which is the  

Piece the analogy together like this: the , despite feeding into the QBL, which is congested, and also has busy usage at Roosevelt, can actually handle the crowds coming from RBB! 

But it doesn't end there, also the  has this too! The , despite being full from Grant Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle, and having to experience high usage at 42 St-PABT, Chambers St, and Jay St-MetroTech, can actually handle the passengers coming from the Rockaways! Rinse and repeat. The lines that are described as "full and overwhelmed" have capacity to spare as evidenced as what I wrote. 

So in conclusion, the RBB is dense enough, the best option, and has capacity to spare, just like the Dyre Av line. Whew, that was a long post. 

 

 

[Trainmaster5]

Gotta slip this in about the present day Dyre line. The line was a railroad line,  basically a New Haven offshoot,  that ran south from Westchester county to the South Bronx. It wasn't low density and it had a ridership base. The Depression and the New Haven bankruptcy is what made the line available for NYC to purchase.  It was a cheaper alternative than extending the Concourse line eastward.  Remember the line only ran between Dyre and EAST 180th Street after the line was purchased and before the connection was built.  The RBB was a remnant of the bankrupt LIRR . While the southern end was connected to the subway system the present day RBB suffered from low ridership from Ozone Park station north to the mainline LIRR at Whitepot junction. Even the Woodhaven stations on the RBB and Atlantic branches weren't utilized enough to stay open.  To compare Dyre and RBB is fallacy IMO. Completely different situations after the parent railroads bankruptcies. My opinion though.  Yours may be different.  Carry on. 

[Lawrence St]

Does any9ne have any pictures of the old railroad South of East 180th?

[RR503]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:32 PM, Coney Island Av said:

I'm now going to explain the positives of RBB being built, seeing as how we're stuck thinking about the negative sides of things:

1) The Q52/53 haven't changed at all. Buses will do nothing to accurately serve/cater to these folks, who arguably want a rail. Despite the "Woodhaven Bus Lanes" traffic is still prevalent in many major streets, and Woodhaven is one of them. The Q52/53 SBS haven't changed due to traffic, and bus lanes were arguably a waste because of it. It'll still take half an hour to get to Woodhaven-Queens Mall because of this. That's greater time than it takes to get from 14 St to 145 St on the , which is 20 minutes. Also, do you wonder why there's a MULTITUDE of buses (the Q11, Q21, Q52/53 SBS, QM15, QM16, QM17) running down Woodhaven is because the area is actually dense enough! If the area really wasn't dense, then all those buses wouldn't have been serving the area, and it would've only been one bus. And don't say Woodhaven is different because 1) it's only a mile from the controversial ROW, and 2) many people, even from the RBB itself, cram onto the buses. 

2) A lot of ya'll seem to disregard additional projects that will be constructed in conjunction to RBB. Many of you seem that the  will experience 53 St congestion because of feeding the passengers into QBL. You completely seem to forgot converting Woodhaven into an express station. This isn't about extra TPH- it's to handle the crowding condition. Many riders transferring from the buses have to pack onto the . Make Woodhaven express, and it will handle the passengers fine, and will lessen the crowding condition at Roosevelt, thus making BOTH the former and latter options for express service. Way into the distant future, we could then have a bypass, with a turquoise , therefore adding a new, high-speed route to Manhattan from Eastern Jamaica. 

3) The  is often regarded as "a pointless line that doesn't even touch the metropolis." The reason that people think this way is because of ridership, reliability, and lack of connections. However, these changes can be revoked. New connections could be built between Fulton St-Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, and Broadway-Lorimer or a new Union Av stop), allowing connections to the . This will make the  get a lot more ridership, therefore solving the second issue. But we're missing another core connection- a connection to the  at Queens Plaza, and even the  at 74 St-Broadway. Those two stations have a lot of ridership, and you may say, "it's impossible to run it there because it will reduce Manhattan-bound service!" However, RBB, if built, will allow the one of the two QBL locals, the , to diverge east of 63 Dr-Rego Park. This frees up terminal capacity at Forest Hills, and will therefore allow the  to be reextended to 71 Av. This will reduce, but not completely negate, the conga line. The  will gain even more ridership in doing so, and allow direct crosstown service between Brooklyn-Queens. It's the same reason why the  was extended to Church.

4) This line is actually a crucial crosstown. Let''s say you wanted to go from, say, Long Island City to the Rockaways. Currently, you have to take the  to Manhattan, and have to go on a suburb tour on the  through Brooklyn, just to go to the beach. But if RBB was constructed, there will just be a diagonal path to the Rockaways. None of this backtracking, going through Brooklyn nonsense. Just take the , and you're good to go. 

5) Other projects involving the use of RBB, such as a highway, a roadway, or even a light-rail, are 99.9% nigh impossible to build. Firstly, the ROW links into the , and is provisioned onto the . Constructing light-rail will be impossible because an elevated structure will have to be built, and there will be even more opposition to it, than if it was subway. Making it a highway or roadway is also impossible because highways are more disruptive than subway lines/elevateds. It would be even worse if you heard the sound of cars zooming by right out your window. Finally, converting to LIRR is off the boat because people from Howard Beach/Rockaways won't tolerate high LIRR fares, and it will only see/meet the same fate as a result of barely any ridership. And what if someone has atrocious driving skills and crashed into your backyard! This is why, if RBB is reactivated, has to be subway. Not a highway or roadway, and even a return of LIRR. 

6) Most of you who criticize the RBB, aren't even regular people who use that line on a daily basis. I want to people to explain what exactly happens on a daily basis, when riding QBL. Daily commuters, such as @N6 Limited and @LGA Link N train, who use QBL on a daily basis should explain what actually happens. People don't have to flee or bail for the . That's just like saying if the  was extended to Lefferts, everyone would bail for the . The locals do have capacity to spare, and don't say the  is congested because it does have capacity to spare. Maybe not a lot, but in some form or another, it will.

Keep in mind, the Dyre Av line was already constructed, and I expect the RBB to be no different! I'm sure if we were discussing about the Dyre Av line before it was built, we would run into the same problems: overcrowding and low-density. But here we are, in the present, and Dyre was constructed already. 

The , despite having busy usage at 3 Av-149 St, and immense crowding on the congested Lex, can actually handle the crowds coming from Dyre! And the IRT Lex is a more busy corridor than QBL, so the  can definitely handle the crowds coming from RBB.

Piece the analogy together like this: the , despite feeding into the QBL, which is congested, and also has busy usage at Roosevelt, can actually handle the crowds coming from RBB! 

But it doesn't end there, also the  has this too! The , despite being full from Grant Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle, and having to experience high usage at 42 St-PABT, Chambers St, and Jay St-MetroTech, can actually handle the passengers coming from the Rockaways! Rinse and repeat. The lines that are described as "full and overwhelmed" have capacity to spare as evidenced as what I wrote. 

So in conclusion, the RBB is dense enough, the best option, and has capacity to spare, just like the Dyre Av line. Whew, that was a long post. 

 

That loud sucking sound is logic leaving this forum.

I'm not going to go through piece by piece and refute all the individual claims because, frankly, all of these have been shown to be untrue ad nauseum before, but my general thoughts. 

Most Q52/3 ridership is people who would take the  looking for more frequent subway service. Wanna know an easier way to provide them with that?  to Lefferts.

Now about Woodhaven... Unless I'm missing something regarding the difference between a train and a platform, adding an express stop at Woodhaven will not magically make more space aboard  trains appear. It'll actually probably do the opposite, by creating yet another place for local riders to jump ship, by creating another place for trains to get dwell issues, and by encouraging those brave few who ride from Woodhaven to Manhattan without transferring to the express to cease from their chivalry.

Also you seem to try to be claiming that  overcrowding is fake news. Can you pretty please go stand on the Manhattan bound platform of Roosevelt at 8:30AM or so on a weekday and tell me what you thing. N6 and LGA aren't the only ones on here who've ridden QB. 

More generally, you talk about people wanting to go from Long Island City to the Rockaways, and from Queens Boulevard to the  line. How many people want to? You can't just say there's demand, and voila, you're right, you have to demonstrate it. Look up census LEHD and get back to me. 

Now, for your last bit of stand up re: Dyre. Yes, it is a line extension. But somehow claiming that because Dyre doesn't overload Lex. and that the Rockaways don't overload the  means that the RBB won't overload Queens Boulevard makes me seriously question your understanding of the subway, nay, basic logic.

Just because projects share similarities (them being ex-main line RRs) does not make them the same. Sure, Dyre didn't overload Lex, but would you for a second consider adding another branch onto that trunk? No, you wouldn't, much in the same way you shouldn't consider adding more riders onto already-overcrowded lines in general. 

Queens Boulevard is at capacity. Period. Add capacity, we can talk. Until then, don't try to use examples from elsewhere to justify idiocy. No two bits of the system are the same. If you take away one thing from this, I want it to be that. Projects must stand alone, and make the case for their construction independent of past precedent. 

18 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

There is a ton of truth here!  The major differences I do with this are these:

The becomes a 24/7 route from Whitehall Street to Rockaway Park via the RBB and running on QB with late nights the line starting at 34th Street-Herald Square. 

The returns to being a 24/7 Line between 95th Street-Bay Ridge and Ditmars Boulevard as it was prior to 1987.  Any yard runs on the would be to and from Bay Parkway via the West End before heading straight to Coney Island Yard from there.  Those yard runs would be noted in ALL schedules.

The becomes a part-time line to Astoria (5:30 AM-10:30 PM Monday through Friday), with late nights and weekends the going to 96th and 2nd with the .  

Biggest change here is the presence of a Broadway line option to JFK doing it this way.  It also increases late-night service on Broadway and the SAS (as the and would both be going to 96th and 2nd nights and weekends PLUS the would be running in Manhattan from 34th Street northward late nights in this scenario).  

Other than that, I do agree with this setup and how the RBB would benefit.  That said, I do think you would need to potentially extend the and in Queens to Union Turnpike if not extending one or both to 179th (to prevent the RBB line from being caught up in conga lines for trains terminating at 71-Continental), with the side benefit of allowing the to become a full-time express to 179 in the latter case and increasing service overall to 179.

Oh lord. 

I'm not gonna go down Broadway with you, because I'm frankly bored after having had to repeat myself so many times, but dude, that second part about terminating trains at Union Turnpike is bad even for you! How, pray, do you plan to do that? Change ends 3 times in relaying on the local/yard/local tracks? Have them run NIS to 179? Relay on the middle tracks using that single crossover east of the station? 

You know, I used to have some level of faith in the potential of rhetoric and logic when used well to change people's minds. After having participated in myriad discussions like this where cogent chains of reasoning are ignored by those too insecure or obsessive to admit incorrectness, I'm losing that faith. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by RR503

[Deucey]

39 minutes ago, RR503 said:

You know, I used to have some level of faith in the potential of rhetoric and logic when used well to change people's minds. After having participated in myriad discussions like this where cogent chains of reasoning are ignored by those too insecure or obsessive to admit incorrectness, I'm losing that faith.

Werd.

It's sad that folks are thinking that "If you build it, they will come" actually works, and that because there's capacity on a railine it'll be used, and used beneficially instead of efficiently.

We all know that Express doesn't save much time over local for most trips. Especially now with the timers and dwelling delays, signal and switch problems and the ever present "Train traffic ahead." Yet to go from TSQ to 14th St we'll hop on  before , or  over  because the formers have fewer stops than the latters even though the latters will arrive 1 minute before the formers.

Factor in that anyone along RBB already has a long commute to Manhattan using NYCT services under status quo, those same folks will switch from the fantasy  to  as soon as they stop at an Express stop. Meaning the folks from Jamaica and Sutphin will now be packed worse and further delayed accommodating new riders - in the "Build it they'll come" fantasy.

All these fantasists should be exploring, if RBB is that important, where to build new trunks to relieve QBL Express instead of hoping folks will opt to stay in seats on the trains that stop at every damn station.

But they're not.

 

 

[Coney Island Av]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

That loud sucking sound is logic leaving this forum.

I'm not going to go through piece by piece and refute all the individual claims because, frankly, all of these have been shown to be untrue ad nauseum before, but my general thoughts. 

Most Q52/3 ridership is people who would take the  looking for more frequent subway service. Wanna know an easier way to provide them with that?  to Lefferts.

Now about Woodhaven... Unless I'm missing something regarding the difference between a train and a platform, adding an express stop at Woodhaven will not magically make more space aboard  trains appear. It'll actually probably do the opposite, by creating yet another place for local riders to jump ship, by creating another place for trains to get dwell issues, and by encouraging those brave few who ride from Woodhaven to Manhattan without transferring to the express to cease from their chivalry.

Also you seem to try to be claiming that  overcrowding is fake news. Can you pretty please go stand on the Manhattan bound platform of Roosevelt at 8:30AM or so on a weekday and tell me what you thing. N6 and LGA aren't the only ones on here who've ridden QB. 

More generally, you talk about people wanting to go from Long Island City to the Rockaways, and from Queens Boulevard to the  line. How many people want to? You can't just say there's demand, and voila, you're right, you have to demonstrate it. Look up census LEHD and get back to me. 

Now, for your last bit of stand up re: Dyre. Yes, it is a line extension. But somehow claiming that because Dyre doesn't overload Lex. and that the Rockaways don't overload the  means that the RBB won't overload Queens Boulevard makes me seriously question your understanding of the subway, nay, basic logic.

Just because projects share similarities (them being ex-main line RRs) does not make them the same. Sure, Dyre didn't overload Lex, but would you for a second consider adding another branch onto that trunk? No, you wouldn't, much in the same way you shouldn't consider adding more riders onto already-overcrowded lines in general. 

Queens Boulevard is at capacity. Period. Add capacity, we can talk. Until then, don't try to use examples from elsewhere to justify idiocy. No two bits of the system are the same. If you take away one thing from this, I want it to be that. Projects must stand alone, and make the case for their construction independent of past precedent. 

Oh lord. 

I'm not gonna go down Broadway with you, because I'm frankly bored after having had to repeat myself so many times, but dude, that second part about terminating trains at Union Turnpike is bad even for you! How, pray, do you plan to do that? Change ends 3 times in relaying on the local/yard/local tracks? Have them run NIS to 179? Relay on the middle tracks using that single crossover east of the station? 

You know, I used to have some level of faith in the potential of rhetoric and logic when used well to change people's minds. After having participated in myriad discussions like this where cogent chains of reasoning are ignored by those too insecure or obsessive to admit incorrectness, I'm losing that faith. 

Fair enough with your point of QBL being at capacity. But we can actually fix these issues. You should also see that all these problems of overcrowding, ridership, and myriad everything can actually be fixed. However, which problem do you think is the most severe with RBB? Is it capacity or density? The only reason I brought up Dyre was because it's a low-ridership branch, which is what you would expect the RBB to be. And you would obviously expect the IRT Lex to be overcongested, just like the QBL. 

@T to Dyre Avenue brought up a proposal earlier in the thread by returning to the pre-2001 split, except it's reversed with 18 /12 . Since the  is the more busier of the two, the extra 3 TPH could possibly handle the riders coming from RBB. However, this also means fewer s would need to turn at Kings Highway. This is more likely to happen this century, because the bypass will never be built within that time. It's imperfect, but it's the only way to do it without the MTA becoming fossils. 

Now for the bypass. This is obviously the most optical solution for relieving congestion on the QBL. This fast route to/from Jamaica will pull passengers off the . Since QBL will then have enough capacity, there's nothing stopping the RBB from being reactivated. 

I also said that converting Woodhaven was to reduce the number of people transferring at Roosevelt. If people transfer at Woodhaven, there will be less transferring at Roosevelt. It makes two express stations for the average RBB rider to choose from, as opposed to 1 present-day option. 

 

 

[LGA Link N Train]

Now seeing the constructive arguments that are occuring in this thread, might as well have my take on it.

1) the Q52 and Q53 buses have not caused much improvement in my opinion. I do sometimes use Woodhaven whenever I'm trying to go to school or back (I'm usually driven by my parents or some other relative so I never taken the buses on Woodhaven before) and buses aren't as frequent despite the amount of buses that serve these particular area's so I agree with @Coney Island Av here. The area is actually dense enough to justify RBB. I'd suggest building a bus hub right outside Woodhaven and Queens Blvd's  (which I'll discuss some other day) and do borough integraion between bus routes of different boroughs. Example B46+M14D. 

2) While overcrowding is an issue I face every day (whether it be Roosevelt or Sutphin. And what not) MANY OF YOU ARE DISREGARDING WHAT @Coney Island Av Said about projects being done in conjunction with RBB. Yeah you may talk about Woodhaven being express and dwell tines becoming absolute crap at that station, but did all of you forget about the Queens Bypass? The one project that will effectively reduce crowding on the and ? Apparently so. and @RR503 I see what you mean about Roosevelt in a morning rush. It's a living hell on ALL platforms. I almost can't even railfan there. And I barely use that part of QBL anymore. Maybe if we lived in a fantasy world where people wouldn't flock for expresses then maybe we'd be in a better position.

3) the the . Where do I begin here. As someone who uses the it's actually not as bad as other lines. But it's not frequent. And I'm not expecting it to be either. If Greenpoint and LIC are going through some nice development, then it'd be no suprise if service increases. The is not useless, it just needs to be a better feeder line. Then it can rejoin QBL. 

4) I agree that this line is a crucial crosstown. That's why we must start thinking 100 years into the future. Yes, there are Denser corridors, yes theyll get more ridership, but we have a rare opportunity to start working with this abandoned railroad. If we utilize this now and plan it right, then we could have a line that will be beneficial and that will act as a supplement to the infrequent  train. And the fellow buses nearby. We don't need to extend the to Lefferts (or at least not until SAS arrives to Fulton) 

5) @Coney Island Av already stated that Busways, LRT's and even the LIRR are Not feasible, and it's no wonder why. I was on twitter the other day and @vanshnookenraggen was making good claims towards why RBB should be subway.

"I totally realize that asking people to transfer at Woodhaven goes against everything I've been arguing BUT the point is it wouldn't force anyone to transfer and would reduce crowding at Roosevelt."

"Futhermore, with CBTC there will be more express service on QB so service east of FH will be added to handle the load."

I'm not gonna quote everything he said cause that's too much

6) Dyre Ave. As @Trainmaster5 stated, is a different corridor and no 2 railroads are the same. RBB if built would have a different kind of success in my opinion. 

Welp, this is just my take. RBB is not a selfish project whatsoever and Forest Hills is one of the worst terminals that I have ever experienced. This is just my take on the whole argument 

[CenSin]

If the Queens Boulevard express must be local east of Forest Hills and trains must be fumigated before turning, they might as well just build a spur out to Yellowstone Boulevard and Metropolitan Avenue to give the locals another terminal.

If ridership potential proves to be, there will be fuel for a push to extend it further. The next stop might just be Jamaica Avenue () followed by Atlantic Avenue (LIRR) and Liberty Avenue () since there isn’t much around Union Turnpike and Myrtle Avenue except parkland.