Overheated subway train sends sparks onto Midtown tracks, delays service

[RailRunRob]

1 minute ago, itmaybeokay said:

It sounds like we agree - the 46 has to go but the 32 has to go first. 

I don't think it's a design problem, I think it's just an age problem. 

Indeed just the effort alone to keep them in good running order with parts is probably insane or approaching that level. 54 year old cars man..  

[itmaybeokay]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I forgot about these, but yes they should go as well.  Another set of cars with safety issues and horrible AC.  I think we're seeing a pattern here... Horrible HVAC, poorly designed seats, and no way to escape in the event of an emergency with dark lighting, not to mention warped floors which are always fun if you need to get out in a hurry.  I can't for the life of me understand why there is only circulating in the middle of these cars. If you're not in that area, forget it.  There is no air circulating at all. All of these packed on the train with their coats giving off heat.  I usually have ride with my coat off. Just way too hot.

We really ought to leave the 68's out of this. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

We really ought to leave the 68's out of this. 

I don't know why.  They were great cars when they first came out, but not so much now. I can remember really liking those cars as a little kid. They were great, but now... Not so much. Let's remember that they were running on the  and that line was rated one of the worst for a while until those R160s were put on them, and now they're mainly on the  and , two lines that run poorly... Coincidence? Me thinks not.

[RailRunRob]

13 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I forgot about these, but yes they should go as well.  Another set of cars with safety issues and horrible AC.  I think we're seeing a pattern here... Horrible HVAC, poorly designed seats, and no way to escape in the event of an emergency with dark lighting, not to mention warped floors which are always fun if you need to get out in a hurry.  I can't for the life of me understand why there is only circulating in the middle of these cars. If you're not in that area, forget it.  There is no air circulating at all. All of these packed on the train with their coats giving off heat.  I usually have ride with my coat off. Just way too hot.

There are more cubic feet to cool with the same voltage input coming in spit between that propulsion and Auxiliary systems their bigger cars. HVAC was just coming into common practice in late 60's early 70s design. Even the 62's have some design oversight with the HVAC systems. 35-50-year-old designs.  You're comparing them to modern cars with two independent cooling systems and more power efficient in every regard. Even the CAD tools I had in 15-16 years ago are archaic Rail design and engineering is a lot more sophisticated not just the tools but innovation in materials as well. People were happy for these R46's in 1975 I could assure you that. They designed the 44/46's with the tools they had at the time. It was pretty innovative for that era.  Maybe too innovative 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

There are more cubic feet to cool with the same voltage input coming in spit between that propulsion and Auxiliary systems their bigger cars. HVAC was just coming in a common practice late 60's early 70s design. Even the 62's have some design oversight with the HVAC systems. 35-50-year-old designs.  Your comparing them to modern cars with two independent cooling systems and more power efficient in every regard. Even the CAD tools I had in 15-16 years ago are archaic Rail design and engineering is a lot more sophisticated not just the tools but innovation in materials as well. People were happy for these R46's in 1975 I could assure you that. They designed the 44/46's with the tools they had at the time. It was pretty innovative for that era.

Yeah well that's precisely the problem.  We're talking about designs from almost FIVE decades ago!  Insane. 

[RailRunRob]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah well that's precisely the problem.  We're talking designs from almost FIVE decades ago!  Insane. 

Okay but I have to design for a 40 year life span.. Why would you nitpick someone's vision sitting at a table in 1970 with the standards of today the R46 are reaching EOL anyways. Considering all the issues they had coming in they turned out okay. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Okay but I have to design for a 40 year life span.. Why would you nitpick someone's vision sitting at a table in 1970 with the standards of today the R46 are reaching EOL anyways. Considering all the issues they had coming in they turned out okay. 

I'm not nitpicking anyone's vision. It just means that they should've been retired already.  We have buses that should be retired as well.  It's a disturbing pattern.  No wonder people are ditching the system.

[RR503]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not nitpicking anyone's vision. It just means that they should've been retired already.  We have buses that should be retired as well.  It's a disturbing pattern.  No wonder people are ditching the system.

No one except for those in the überfoam crowd will disagree that they should be gone by now. What I and others are saying is that 32s and 42s need to go first because they are objectively worse cars.  

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not nitpicking anyone's vision. It just means that they should've been retired already.  We have buses that should be retired as well.  It's a disturbing pattern.  No wonder people are ditching the system.

But you know the MTA is just coming out of the death grips of the 70's and 80's that was a generational digout there.  The new cars are coming. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

But you know the MTA is just coming out of the death grips of the 70's and 80's that was a generational digout there.  The new cars are coming. 

Just not fast enough. lol

3 minutes ago, RR503 said:

No one except for those in the überfoam crowd will disagree that they should be gone by now. What I and others are saying is that 32s and 42s need to go first because they are objectively worse cars.  

I suppose so, but how long does the  plan on keeping those R46s?

[RailRunRob]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Just not fast enough. lol

I suppose so, but how long does the  plan on keeping those R46s?

I'm not even sure if you understand how a train works mechanically... You don't get to gauge that.  One car has resistor issues out of hundreds and it's code red!! lol   Sit back and enjoy the ride...     

[RR503]

50 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Just not fast enough. lol

I suppose so, but how long does the  plan on keeping those R46s?

Until the 211s come, so like 2021ish? 

[trainfan22]

I was on an R42 before where the heater caught fire, I ran into the next car, the train continued in service as if nothing happened, this was in 2005.

[Ian Lennon]

The doors between 75' cars remotely unlock, the switch is in the cab. If the exterior blue lights at the car ends are on, the doors are unlocked.

[Deucey]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The R46s should go before simply because of safety concerns.  You can't go through the doors to reach another car in an emergency unless personnel is there.  That alone is a no-no for me. 

This right here. Being told to evacuate at 207th St bc track fire and being stuck because of the locked door made me a firm believer in this right here.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, Ian Lennon said:

The doors between 75' cars remotely unlock, the switch is in the cab. If the exterior blue lights at the car ends are on, the doors are unlocked.

Switch didn’t work at 207th St. Conductor had to come unlock the doors with the key.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Ian Lennon said:

The doors between 75' cars remotely unlock, the switch is in the cab. If the exterior blue lights at the car ends are on, the doors are unlocked.

Correct but I don't think that works in the event of power loss tho? right?

[bobtehpanda]

12 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I'm not even sure if you understand how a train works mechanically... You don't get to gauge that.  One car has resistor issues out of hundreds and it's code red!! lol   Sit back and enjoy the ride...     

Isn't the MBDF of the R46s also absolute garbage right now? It's not like they're in tip-top shape (although, the cars are so ugly that they may as well be retired)

[RailRunRob]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Isn't the MBDF of the R46s also absolute garbage right now? It's not like they're in tip-top shape (although, the cars are so ugly that they may as well be retired)

Okay, Doc garbage compared to what?  75-78K MDBF? There 42-year-old cars.

• R32's 31-38K
• R42's 31-42K
• R46's 75-78k
• R68s  116-121k

This seems about right for the age or at least in the right area. Considering the R46's started life by killing Pullman they turned out okay. The questions we should be asking even tho I hate too (Ex Kawasaki employee  ) Is why Kawasaki cars have the lowest MDBF. As per the MTA's data the  R142A's have a MDBF of 50K these are 18-14 year old cars that number is lower than the R46's. Cars almost 30 years their senor! How does the MTA measure this? Does car class size also even the average out? Smaller order bigger impact fewer cars to average out amongst?   There's also disparaging number difference between the R62 & R62a and somewhat between the R68/R68a's the one pattern I spot is there all smaller orders.  

As far as your comment on not being in tiptop shape again what other 40+ year-old cars are you comparing them to? 1000 series on the BART and DC metro? C-D stock? I don't understand your metric their end of life cars.

[biGC323232]

20 hours ago, CTK246 said:

So are we going to keep pretending the R46s don't need to be retired?

Of course......And whats worst is that most of them on the longest line in the world and system.....i understand that many 32' 42' all 40 44's needed to go...But these 46's aint to far off in age either...And age starting to show on them....BTW does anybody know how the fire started???

[R42N]

20 hours ago, RR503 said:

All cars have their issues. Immediately blaming this fire on one specific to 46s before we know all the facts seems like reckless speculation. 

My money is on debris getting caught on the train. 

Right, but the condition of the R46 makes this a dangerous situation. One can’t move between cars on the R46, so if this fire happened mid-station, there could have been a legitimate issue. 

[RailRunRob]

4 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

Of course......And whats worst is that most of them on the longest line in the world and system.....i understand that many 32' 42' all 40 44's needed to go...But these 46's aint to far off in age either...And age starting to show on them....BTW does anybody know how the fire started???

The guess is maybe something with the resistor grid a short possibility caused by debris.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I'm not even sure if you understand how a train works mechanically... You don't get to gauge that.  One car has resistor issues out of hundreds and it's code red!! lol   Sit back and enjoy the ride...     

I don't see what that has to do with anything.  You're an engineer who thinks he's the sh*t.  Get over yourself.  I'm pretty sure you don't know my world either and never will.  You don't need any technical skills to understand something that is pretty basic.  The longer you keep using something, the more prone it is to breakdowns and failures.  Did they give you a degree in engineering for that smart @ss?  You like talking to others like you're so humble when in reality you're a stuck up prick.  This from someone that doesn't know the difference between there and they're.

 

This right here. Being told to evacuate at 207th St bc track fire and being stuck because of the locked door made me a firm believer in this right here.

But what do we know? We're not engineers so we couldn't possibly know what we're talking about.  We ride the damn things regularly to know when something isn't right.

[biGC323232]

32 minutes ago, R42N said:

Right, but the condition of the R46 makes this a dangerous situation. One can’t move between cars on the R46, so if this fire happened mid-station, there could have been a legitimate issue. 

Facts...But lately ive been avoiding the line's that has these cars that doesnt allow you from one car to the next with platforming 1st.75ft cars has its downfalls in some dangerous ways....But until we get the newer cars....     passergers have to deal with it...

[RailRunRob]

40 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't see what that has to do with anything.  You're an engineer who thinks he's the sh*t.  Get over yourself.  I'm pretty sure you don't know my world either and never will.  You don't need any technical skills to understand something that is pretty basic.  The longer you keep using something, the more prone it is to breakdowns and failures.  Did they give you a degree in engineering for that smart @ss?  You like talking to others like you're so humble when in reality you're a stuck up prick.

 

VG8 if you keep giving someone medical advice and pov's at some point someones going to ask if you're a doctor?  Of course, things break down over time that's a given but when you start comparing design and technology ah yes where the data and your credentials? It's okay to say you don't like the cars I'm not a fan of the R46 myself but I have to respect the fact they moved billions of people over the years all that cosmetic talk what does that mean at 42 years old? Somebody physically designed and built them then for 40 years folks had to maintain/operate them.That's my perspective having a background in the rail industry albeit a short one I have to respect that people worked hard on all 3 sides design, build and maintenance. Your right I am a prick why would you listen to anyone that hasn't done the job? How could that person possibly understand what it's about or entails? That's silly. Why would I work my ass off to learn and establish myself all these years to have someone get by on options? That's crazy talk listen to yourself.  If someone's been operating trains for 30 years what could I tell them? I haven't so I shut up and listen and get feedback there in the field. Everyone's the master of transit until you stand next to a Motorman, mechanic, designer, and engineer. Knowledge is one thing but the application is everything. Like saying you know how to fight.. but the bigger question is have you ever fought before?...  Hey, you know what this little lane with rolling stock, design and buildout I have some experience there I can back that up. Im, sure there's someone here that maybe knows more and that's okay I'm open to learn.  But I'll be a prick i've put that work in and I'm battle-tested.