Expanding Second Avenue subway beyond planned terminus key to system’s future, RPA says

[Harry]

By Vincent Barone   vin.barone@amny.com November 30, 2017

If New York City and the surrounding areas want to continue growing, government must determine how to build a new subway extension in less than 100 years, according to the Regional Plan Association’s Fourth Regional Plan.

About a year after the opening of the Second Avenue subway’s first phase, the nonprofit association is publishing its plan Thursday, which includes proposals for eight new or extended subway lines to be built in the coming decades, as well as a unification of the region’s commuter rails — New Jersey Transit, Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North — under one system, called the Trans-Regional Express, or T-REX for short.

The 95-year-old association publishes such a plan every several decades to set the tone for planning discussions over the future of the tristate area. Its new report, a massive 351-page document, spans all sorts of issues pressing the region.

The MTA runs one of the largest subway systems in the world, yet more than a third of all New Yorkers don’t live within walking distance of a subway or train station.

Read more: https://www.amny.com/transit/subway-line-expansion-1.15250814

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Some of these expansions may sound great but they still do nothing to address those that currently need the subway access the most.  One of the worst things about the Bronx is how isolated and cut-off neighborhoods can be and how difficult traveling East to West and vice versa is because of hills and other obstructions like expressways, which means usually that it's easier to backtrack into Manhattan and then re-enter the Bronx.  How many trains does one need at Grand Concourse 149th street?  That still means many having to take buses to reach the subway.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

18 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Some of these expansions may sound great but they still do nothing to address those that currently need the subway access the most.  One of the worst things about the Bronx is how isolated and cut-off neighborhoods can be and how difficult traveling East to West and vice versa is because of hills and other obstructions like expressways, which means usually that it's easier to backtrack into Manhattan and then re-enter the Bronx.  How many trains does one need at Grand Concourse 149th street?  That still means many having to take buses to reach the subway.

I think they should send the to 3rd Ave - 138th Street and create either a tunnel or an OOST between it and 149th Street. The could then replace service and serve the Bronx as originally envisioned by the IND.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

I find the adding of an even lower level at Lex Av - 125th St to be geologically unsound. It's also financially ridiculous as service shortages would occur to make room for those digging machines. Further, the elevator was just replaced within the past year and I believe it wasn't cheap.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, MassTransitHonchkrow said:

I think they should send the to 3rd Ave - 138th Street and create either a tunnel or an OOST between it and 149th Street. The could then replace service and serve the Bronx as originally envisioned by the IND.

The Bronx needs West-East service.  All of the subways mainly serve as North-South routes and then meander west and east here and there, but they aren't true West-East lines.  I can't get anywhere in the Bronx without having to go through hell and back to get there.  Really annoying. Try going from Parkchester to the South Bronx by subway as I have had to do with tutoring sessions...  The other thing that is horrible is how SLOW the subways are in the Bronx. The so-called "express" lines are a joke. To get to the very northern parts of the Bronx like above Pelham Parkway is such a PITA.  It is so much quicker with Metro-North.  There is always a delay or some crap that makes the trains go local and they crawl to get there. They need true express service.  Often times a trip like the one I described above would go as follows:

 train from Parkchester into Manhattan to 125th street and then the  train and then walk or transfer to the bus.  The fastest way is to take the BxM6 into Manhattan and transfer to the BxM4 and then walk, but if I miss that connection, I'm stuck with the subway. In both cases you have to enter Manhattan, and yes I'm sure I could take a local bus but who wants to put up with that?  The Bronx local buses aren't exactly that great.  Slow, overcrowded, etc....

[RR503]

14 minutes ago, MassTransitHonchkrow said:

I think they should send the to 3rd Ave - 138th Street and create either a tunnel or an OOST between it and 149th Street. The could then replace service and serve the Bronx as originally envisioned by the IND.

You do realize that the  and  can’t share, so either you replace both  and  or neither. I vote strongly for neither. The 3rd Avenue corridor sorely needs subway service. 

As for cross bronx service, extend the 8th Avenue line. I would swap the  and  in manhattan to keep the ’s route shorter, but then send the  to, say, Pelham Pkwy . 

[MysteriousBtrain]

I'm assuming this is the plan refered to?

http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-RX-Regional-Express-Rail.pdf

[RR503]

No this one

http://fourthplan.org/action/new-subways

[Mtatransit]

In fantasy land, there should be a subway right under Fordham Road, and a extended train to Eastern Queens, with a North to South line on Springfield Blvd. There should also be a East to West Line in Brooklyn south of Church Ave

[Deucey]

@mtatransit there was once a Fordham Streetcar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/207th_Street_Crosstown_Line

I think there should be more crosstown lines in the city, and to build cheaper, make them light rail lines, since like @Via Garibaldi 8 said, going from one end of The Bronx to another is too many convoluted movements - go to 125th then back to The Bronx or deal with a slow overcrowded bus.

[CenSin]

In other words, they are just repeating what the rest of us have known all along.

[bobtehpanda]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Bronx needs West-East service.  All of the subways mainly serve as North-South routes and then meander west and east here and there, but they aren't true West-East lines.  I can't get anywhere in the Bronx without having to go through hell and back to get there.  Really annoying. Try going from Parkchester to the South Bronx by subway as I have had to do with tutoring sessions...  The other thing that is horrible is how SLOW the subways are in the Bronx. The so-called "express" lines are a joke. To get to the very northern parts of the Bronx like above Pelham Parkway is such a PITA.  It is so much quicker with Metro-North.  There is always a delay or some crap that makes the trains go local and they crawl to get there. They need true express service.  Often times a trip like the one I described above would go as follows:

 train from Parkchester into Manhattan to 125th street and then the  train and then walk or transfer to the bus.  The fastest way is to take the BxM6 into Manhattan and transfer to the BxM4 and then walk, but if I miss that connection, I'm stuck with the subway. In both cases you have to enter Manhattan, and yes I'm sure I could take a local bus but who wants to put up with that?  The Bronx local buses aren't exactly that great.  Slow, overcrowded, etc....

The Bronx needs E-W service, but the N-S demand is still, overall, greater. You could probably serve the E-W by building two light rail lines, one that replaces the B12 and another multi-line system replacing all the lines out of 181 St, and one that replaces the Bx6. But this would require money.

[GojiMet86]

For those that don't feel like opening the link:

 

Quote

 

Manhattan

Second Avenue subway: Extend the Second Avenue line from 96th Street past its next planned terminus of 125th Street and Second Avenue, to Park Avenue and then westward along 125th Street to Broadway. The idea is that in the three miles of expansion, the subway would hit underserved sections of Harlem while connecting to seven subway lines at four stations.

7 Line extension: Extend the 7 train from its current terminus at 34th Street down to 14th Street and Eighth Avenue, where it would connect to the L, A, C and E lines.

Brooklyn

Utica Avenue extension: Build a new subway under Utica Avenue, from Eastern Parkway to Flatbush Avenue, extending 4 train service by four miles.

Nostrand Avenue line extension: Build out the Nostrand Avenue line 2.7 miles south to Avenue Z, connecting 2 and 5 trains farther into Flatlands, Midwood, Marine Park and Sheepshead Bay.

Queens

Northern Boulevard line: Create a new 3.7-mile subway line running from 36th Street and Northern Boulevard to Willets Point, where it could either continue east to serve north Flushing and Mitchell-Linden or turn north to pass under Flushing Bay to College Point.

Jewel Avenue line: Build a 5.7-mile Jewel Avenue line that would branch off the Queens Boulevard line to the transit deserts of Pomonok and Fresh Meadows in central Queens.

Astoria line extension: Add a 0.8-mile extension to hook service closer to the East River at 21st Street and 20th Avenue. A new yard would be constructed on the northern side of Ditmars Boulevard along 20th Street.

The Bronx

Second Avenue extension: In addition to an expansion out west, the plan association calls for a northern expansion to the Grand Concourse at 149th Street to connect to the 2, 4 and 5 trains.

 

 

1. I have mixed feelings about having the Second Avenue line turn west on 125th. If anything, a Tenth Avenue line should be the one serving 125th, maybe one that curves to the Bronx and/or goes east to Queens.

2. I always felt the Utica Avenue line really should be just a new line to Manhattan, not an IRT extension. And the RPA wants the to serve it, fully knowing (or completely ignorant) of the fact that the track arrangement is arranged so that the Utica Avenue portals split off the local track, not the express.

3. Northern Blvd should have a subway...just not another one that branches of Queens Blvd. Like, what trains are they going to run over there without reducing frequency on the Queens Blvd line?

4. Jewel Avenue...Maybe. A lot of ridership at Forest Hills comes from the Q64 anyway. Could provide a chance for a new terminal that can support more trains.

5. That Astoria extension is just beyond stupid. Anything extension should be to the east. LaGuardia wasn't even an option this time around? Jeez.

6. Extend the Bronx Second Avenue just to Grand Concourse? Nothing more? Okay then...

[GojiMet86]

For those that don't feel like opening the link:

 

Quote

 

Manhattan

Second Avenue subway: Extend the Second Avenue line from 96th Street past its next planned terminus of 125th Street and Second Avenue, to Park Avenue and then westward along 125th Street to Broadway. The idea is that in the three miles of expansion, the subway would hit underserved sections of Harlem while connecting to seven subway lines at four stations.

7 Line extension: Extend the 7 train from its current terminus at 34th Street down to 14th Street and Eighth Avenue, where it would connect to the L, A, C and E lines.

Brooklyn

Utica Avenue extension: Build a new subway under Utica Avenue, from Eastern Parkway to Flatbush Avenue, extending 4 train service by four miles.

Nostrand Avenue line extension: Build out the Nostrand Avenue line 2.7 miles south to Avenue Z, connecting 2 and 5 trains farther into Flatlands, Midwood, Marine Park and Sheepshead Bay.

Queens

Northern Boulevard line: Create a new 3.7-mile subway line running from 36th Street and Northern Boulevard to Willets Point, where it could either continue east to serve north Flushing and Mitchell-Linden or turn north to pass under Flushing Bay to College Point.

Jewel Avenue line: Build a 5.7-mile Jewel Avenue line that would branch off the Queens Boulevard line to the transit deserts of Pomonok and Fresh Meadows in central Queens.

Astoria line extension: Add a 0.8-mile extension to hook service closer to the East River at 21st Street and 20th Avenue. A new yard would be constructed on the northern side of Ditmars Boulevard along 20th Street.

The Bronx

Second Avenue extension: In addition to an expansion out west, the plan association calls for a northern expansion to the Grand Concourse at 149th Street to connect to the 2, 4 and 5 trains.

 

 

1. I have mixed feelings about having the Second Avenue line turn west on 125th. If anything, a Tenth Avenue line should be the one serving 125th, maybe one that curves to the Bronx and/or goes east to Queens.

2. I always felt the Utica Avenue line really should be just a new line to Manhattan, not an IRT extension. And the RPA wants the to serve it, fully knowing (or completely ignorant) of the fact that the track arrangement is arranged so that the Utica Avenue portals split off the local track, not the express.

3. Northern Blvd should have a subway...just not another one that branches of Queens Blvd. Like, what trains are they going to run over there without reducing frequency on the Queens Blvd line?

4. Jewel Avenue...Maybe. A lot of ridership at Forest Hills comes from the Q64 anyway. Could provide a chance for a new terminal that can support more trains.

5. That Astoria extension is just beyond stupid. Anything extension should be to the east. LaGuardia wasn't even an option this time around? Jeez.

6. Extend the Bronx Second Avenue just to Grand Concourse? Nothing more? Okay then...

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, GojiMet86 said:

1. I have mixed feelings about having the Second Avenue line turn west on 125th. If anything, a Tenth Avenue line should be the one serving 125th, maybe one that curves to the Bronx and/or goes east to Queens.

2. I always felt the Utica Avenue line really should be just a new line to Manhattan, not an IRT extension. And the RPA wants the to serve it, fully knowing (or completely ignorant) of the fact that the track arrangement is arranged so that the Utica Avenue portals split off the local track, not the express.

3. Northern Blvd should have a subway...just not another one that branches of Queens Blvd. Like, what trains are they going to run over there without reducing frequency on the Queens Blvd line?

4. Jewel Avenue...Maybe. A lot of ridership at Forest Hills comes from the Q64 anyway. Could provide a chance for a new terminal that can support more trains.

5. That Astoria extension is just beyond stupid. Anything extension should be to the east. LaGuardia wasn't even an option this time around? Jeez.

6. Extend the Bronx Second Avenue just to Grand Concourse? Nothing more? Okay then...

1. I could agree with that. 

2. Idk how a new line would exactly work, but I do think the should not be the one serving Utica Av. I would somehow build a subway yard connecting the southern terminal and send the there or build a spur track that would connect to Livonia.

3. It doesn't look like the (the line they are calling it) would connect to QBL at all. Since it's a Second Av Line now, the most the can use regarding QBL is 63 St, and the bellmouth provisions are more or less there for the line.

5. I agree.

6. I see what you are going with this. The only reason I can lean towards this other extension is because of the new yard proposed. Although idk if the yard plans can go through like that.

7. It looks like it may connect to the Grand Concourse and run on the , but the thing I don't get is why this extension (served by the ) is not at Third Av-149 St. The T-REX talks about the lack of a Third Avenue line a handful of times, but they don't even have the terminating there. That would be one of the best ways to get Third Av Service back.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The Bronx needs E-W service, but the N-S demand is still, overall, greater. You could probably serve the E-W by building two light rail lines, one that replaces the B12 and another multi-line system replacing all the lines out of 181 St, and one that replaces the Bx6. But this would require money.

What are you basing that off of though? I think that's easy to say because of how the subway lines are laid out, but if you just look at a map of the Bronx it's very clear that traveling from east to west or vice versa is a very difficult task unless you're driving.  You have no idea how many tutoring assignments I have turned down.  I had one out in Throggs Neck and I refused to accept it.  I've had others in the Bronx as well that I've turned down because of the east-west nonsense.  In all honesty I accept more assignments in Manhattan because they are easier to reach than going into the Bronx.  The assignment in Throggs Neck would require me to backtrack into Manhattan (the easiest way is with the express bus - BxM2 or BxM1 to the BxM9) and then into Throggs Neck.  Someone living in say Woodlawn likely never travels to Throggs Neck for the aforementioned reason.  It's like another world even though it's in the Bronx because of the hills and overall layout.  A better subway system would better connect the Bronx.  If we're talking about neighborhoods and connectivity for me I always go into Manhattan for most of my needs from Riverdale rather than the Bronx because it is much easier reaching Manhattan versus the Bronx as a Riverdalian.  I look at Manhattan even and going east to west or vice versa is quite difficult.  From Midtown East to the Upper West Side usually involves a decent amount of backtracking for me.  In short it may seem as if North-South commuting is far greater, but east-west travel is certainly increasing in popularity as traveling habits change.  If we are truly going to connect people that live in the same borough, we have to improve east-west travel and not focus solely on an outdated way of thinking, which is that everyone is looking to go into and out of Manhattan. Even Scott Stringer's report cited the increase in people working within their own borough more.  

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What are you basing that off of though?

Capacity. The are already overcapacity heading into Manhattan, largely because of the demolishing of the Third Av El decades ago. Adding new E-W connections would actually make that situation worse by causing more transit ridership, and some of that will head into the core.

Relief of the Lex is the primary concern in the Bronx, and crosstown light rail in any borough is really just not a priority till we fix the current capacity issues. I'm not saying it's not an issue that it's hard to go E-W, but because of priorities SBS is going to have to do.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

Capacity. The are already overcapacity heading into Manhattan, largely because of the demolishing of the Third Av El decades ago. Adding new E-W connections would actually make that situation worse by causing more transit ridership, and some of that will head into the core.

Relief of the Lex is the primary concern in the Bronx, and crosstown light rail in any borough is really just not a priority till we fix the current capacity issues. I'm not saying it's not an issue that it's hard to go E-W, but because of priorities SBS is going to have to do.

But SBS is not doing, which is the problem.  The only crosstown SBS routes in the Bronx are the Bx6 in the South Bronx and then there is NOTHING until you reach Fordham Road.  The  is at capacity because quite frankly there really is nothing else.

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

But SBS is not doing, which is the problem.  The only crosstown SBS routes in the Bronx are the Bx6 in the South Bronx and then there is NOTHING until you reach Fordham Road.  The  is at capacity because quite frankly there really is nothing else.

I mean, quite frankly, where would we get the money? Even assuming the MTA were to magically rationalize all its costs to a rational, European level, it would still be preoccupied with building out the full SAS, building expansions to it to relieve the capacity on other congested segments, signals expansion, etc. There's not enough money for everything we want. There's not even enough money for everything in the works.

I'm not saying that light rail is not necessary, I'm saying that it's just way lower in magnitude of importance.

[Porter]

1) Extend the subway in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable price.

2) Employ union workers, petition politicians, consult local residents, hold a vote, and conduct a battery of impact studies beforehand with countless middlemen and red tape.

Choose one. That's America for you.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Bronx needs West-East service.  All of the subways mainly serve as North-South routes and then meander west and east here and there, but they aren't true West-East lines.  I can't get anywhere in the Bronx without having to go through hell and back to get there.  Really annoying. Try going from Parkchester to the South Bronx by subway as I have had to do with tutoring sessions...  The other thing that is horrible is how SLOW the subways are in the Bronx. The so-called "express" lines are a joke. To get to the very northern parts of the Bronx like above Pelham Parkway is such a PITA.  It is so much quicker with Metro-North.  There is always a delay or some crap that makes the trains go local and they crawl to get there. They need true express service.  Often times a trip like the one I described above would go as follows:

 train from Parkchester into Manhattan to 125th street and then the  train and then walk or transfer to the bus.  The fastest way is to take the BxM6 into Manhattan and transfer to the BxM4 and then walk, but if I miss that connection, I'm stuck with the subway. In both cases you have to enter Manhattan, and yes I'm sure I could take a local bus but who wants to put up with that?  The Bronx local buses aren't exactly that great.  Slow, overcrowded, etc....

This is a great point.

Reminds me of the Burke Av struggle until Robert Moses convinced the city to axe it.

I did mention an idea that would allow MetroNorth riders to participate in a similar pilot the LIRR was holding regarding combined tickets that utilize monthly MetroCards and zoned access. The Bronx is Zone 2, with about two baker's dozens worth of stations.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

22 hours ago, RR503 said:

You do realize that the  and  can’t share, so either you replace both  and  or neither. I vote strongly for neither. The 3rd Avenue corridor sorely needs subway service. 

As for cross bronx service, extend the 8th Avenue line. I would swap the  and  in manhattan to keep the ’s route shorter, but then send the  to, say, Pelham Pkwy . 

I do. However, it's the continued lack of out of box thinking that will send this system to ruin.

I'm also aware the platforms cannot accommodate the width of R160 and similar cars used on lettered lines. The system's trifecta nature is a liability that will make modernization difficult and costly.

I believe such service once existed, but it was torn down. New Yorkers' disdain for the political process will continue to make them vulnerable to the power grabs that essentially allowed Moses to run wild.

If they choose to say nothing they get nothing.

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, Skipper said:

1) Extend the subway in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable price.

2) Employ union workers, petition politicians, consult local residents, hold a vote, and conduct a battery of impact studies beforehand with countless middlemen and red tape.

Choose one. That's America for you.

The stupid thing about inane comments like these is that there are North American cities that are broadly culturally similar and do community consultations like these yet still don't build at these insane cost premiums. (see: Vancouver, Los Angeles)

[Deucey]

20 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The stupid thing about inane comments like these is that there are North American cities that are broadly culturally similar and do community consultations like these yet still don't build at these insane cost premiums. (see: Vancouver, Los Angeles)

But they also have

A) competent staffs and boards leading and operating the organizations 

B) Dedicated funding mechanisms independent of political interference

C) Less density, more space and better surface traffic redundancy so drivers and pedestrians have alternatives if a block is closed for construction.

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, Deucey said:

But they also have

A) competent staffs and boards leading and operating the organizations 

B) Dedicated funding mechanisms independent of political interference

C) Less density, more space and better surface traffic redundancy so drivers and pedestrians have alternatives if a block is closed for construction.

I mean sure, but I just get miffed at the idea that we somehow need a Robert Moses of the subways.

If your system is so dysfunctional that you need a messiah, focus on making the system work better instead of waiting for the second coming of Jesus.