Transit study will look into running 7 train into New Jersey

[RailRunRob]

4 hours ago, Deucey said:

But as I said earlier, if we actually had a bi-state transit authority instead of a bi-state shipping transport authority (because that's what PANYNJ is) that runs a train because a) NYC/NYS wouldn't bail H&M out,

True!

[Dannny]

^um? Ok, that pretty much what I said, you just worded differently. 

[kosciusko]

19 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Methinks you're getting all worked up over nothing IMO. We already have a subway running between the states. It's called PATH and although it's not under the umbrella like the or the any improvement to it is a regional expense of the bi-state agency. Let the foamers have their wet dreams. Nobody believes the   is gonna fund this. BTW kids who can't ride bikes yet can still learn how to do tricks . YOUTUBE. You're getting old VG8, lol.

I think VG8 is right on the mark here, the NYC subway should make sure it's own home is in order before it decides to transverse the bureaucratic red tape required for it to expand into NJ. I think in MAYBE in 70 years world we should be looking at this expansion, but if we can barely connect the LIRR to Grand Central without going obscenely over-budget and behind schedule what makes you think we can bring the  all the way to Secaucus without making the same errors? 

[RR503]

Alright, I think there are some major misconceptions here, both about the study, and about the role of various powers in our region. 

The study itself is not draining your precious tax dollars from the subways. It is being conducted by a PANYNJ-hired consultant, with input from the MTA and NJT. What's more, it isn't just looking at the  extension. Here's the quote from the article:

Quote

"It could be the extension of the 7 line, could be other alternatives," Cotton said at the New York Athletic Club. The multi-agency study will look at the rail link "in terms of, how do you continue looking at a 2040-type time frame that, by then, you have significantly increased the ability to move passengers across the Hudson."

I have a feeling Cotton was just being politic, as subway system expansion is sure to garner more support and press than the same for PATH. I also have a feeling that the  alternative will be eliminated pretty early on for the operational reasons stated upthread. I think some version of 'moarrrr PATH' will be the study's conclusion. 

 

Now, in the unlikely event they select the , what happens to us current MTA riders?

Financially, nothing, actually. The MTA has no jurisdiction whatsoever beyond the Hudson River, and would therefore be unable to take any active role in tunnel construction. This would be a Port Authority gig, funded from its bi-state budget. Operation, too, would not be an MTA concern. I honestly do not know how this would work, because once again, the MTA can't operate outside its geographical purview, namely, the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, in which special taxes and fees related to the MTA apply. This is why the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines are operated by NJT. So basically, for this to work, either Hudson County would have to join the tax district (requiring federal legislation, as the MTA is a state not federal authority), or it would have to operate under contract to the PA or NJDOT like Metro North does in Connecticut with CTDOT. In both cases, the agency would not have to absorb any negative financial impact from the operation. 

But as stated before, this  drama is unlikely to come to pass. What is likely -- and necessary -- is more PATH lines. These again, would be constructed and operated by the PA. And these, both by merit of our commitment to undertake such projects by creating the PA, and by merit of our needing a workforce, we should support. We want to make it as easy as possible to get to Manhattan (or Brooklyn or wherever in the city) because the easier it is, the more people do it, and thus the more growth and activity NYC becomes party to. That's economics 101, and that's the model we need to embrace -- enough of this reductive sectionalism. And for those of you who worry that your oh so precious tax dollars will be going to those horrid New Jerseyans, don't. The PANYNJ doesn't receive any tax dollars from either of its states. It builds through bonds from its own credit. 

Now, an admittedly tangential word on the Port Authority. That agency is unequivocally the region's biggest untapped asset. It has a charter that gives it power over the metropolitan area on both sides of the river, and one that allows it to do whatever the f*ck it likes within that region. If you don't believe me, look at its history. Originally, its job was to create an organized terminal freight rail system for New York Harbor -- a task during which it built/gained control of all three Hudson River road crossings. When that organizational effort failed, it went into the port business in Newark, where it facilitated the reinvention of global shipping by assisting Malcolm MacLean with the development of the container. With proceeds from these streams, it bought all three major NYC airports, giving it control of the skies as well as the seas. And then, when it saw a struggling commuter system with valuable land, it bought the H&M, bringing it into the commuter transport business. It really is the jack of all trades, but one we allow to lie fallow because our silo-loving politicians are too scared of a regional authority with sharp teeth. If we wanted to, it would take just a few charter revisions to combine the services of NJT and the MTA under that roof, et voila, transportational unity. 

[RailRunRob]

6 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

I think VG8 is right on the mark here, the NYC subway should make sure it's own home is in order before it decides to transverse the bureaucratic red tape required for it to expand into NJ. I think in MAYBE in 70 years world we should be looking at this expansion, but if we can barely connect the LIRR to Grand Central without going obscenely over-budget and behind schedule what makes you think we can bring the  all the way to Secaucus without making the same errors? 

I mean at the end of the day all options are on the table nothing saying that any NYC monies are being used. But hypothetically even if the  NYCT was extended into Hudson County why wouldn't you think these municipalities foot the majority of the bill.There are examples of this going on all over the country the Goldline run by the LAMTA their extension to Montclair San Bernardino County's footing the bill for things built on their side of the border. Why wouldn't this be the same? Hudson or Essex county now pays MTA tax covers there share. I understand we need to upgrade and fix our system true. Expansion and upgrades can happen at the same time. These options are 20-30 years out. What I'm getting from all this is that a gateway or even a gateway and Path expansions may not be enough for projected growth. Let's see the data and see the options. Every option should be in play at this point.

[RailRunRob]

19 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Financially, nothing, actually. The MTA has no jurisdiction whatsoever beyond the Hudson River, and would therefore be unable to take any active role in tunnel construction. This would be a Port Authority gig, funded from its bi-state budget. Operation, too, would not be an MTA concern. I honestly do not know how this would work, because once again, the MTA can't operate outside its geographical purview, namely, the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, in which special taxes and fees related to the MTA apply. This is why the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines are operated by NJT. So basically, for this to work, either Hudson County would have to join the tax district (requiring federal legislation, as the MTA is a state not federal authority), or it would have to operate under contract to the PA or NJDOT like Metro North does in Connecticut with CTDOT. In both cases, the agency would not have to absorb any negative financial impact from the operation. 

☝️ This..... I was writing as you posted this... But Yes!

[RailRunRob]

21 minutes ago, RR503 said:

If we wanted to, it would take just a few charter revisions to combine the services of NJT and the MTA under that roof, et voila, transportational unity. 

🤔... If that's workable might be the silver bullet right there.

[kosciusko]

43 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I mean at the end of the day all options are on the table nothing saying that any NYC monies are being used. But hypothetically even if the  NYCT was extended into Hudson County why wouldn't you think these municipalities foot the majority of the bill.There are examples of this going on all over the country the Goldline run by the LAMTA their extension to Montclair San Bernardino County's footing the bill for things built on their side of the border. Why wouldn't this be the same? Hudson or Essex county now pays MTA tax covers there share. I understand we need to upgrade and fix our system true. Expansion and upgrades can happen at the same time. These options are 20-30 years out. What I'm getting from all this is that a gateway or even a gateway and Path expansions may not be enough for projected growth. Let's see the data and see the options. Every option should be in play at this point.

It's not about who pays, it's about the possibility of cost overruns, and even if NJ is footing most of the money, the MTA will still need to be heavily involved in the oversight and planning of the construction, because it will have to be built to NYCT specifications, and I'm sure the MTA and NJ Transit unions will find something to be upset about, because they always do (see the Amtrak and LIRR union dispute). I'm not confident in the MTA's ability to cooperate with other agencies and keep costs under control given their recent history.

[RailRunRob]

24 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

It's not about who pays, it's about the possibility of cost overruns, and even if NJ is footing most of the money, the MTA will still need to be heavily involved in the oversight and planning of the construction, because it will have to be built to NYCT specifications, and I'm sure the MTA and NJ Transit unions will find something to be upset about, because they always do (see the Amtrak and LIRR union dispute). I'm not confident in the MTA's ability to cooperate with other agencies and keep costs under control given their recent history.

These are solvable issues. Spec's? Again it's being done already in other parts of the Country. Objectively you think what a few peoples lack of ability to make agreements and negotiate should hold up better connectivity for millions? What sense does that make? Anything can be negotiated when people are motivated.. And that's usually by money, unfortunately. One thing I can look forward to is a younger generation taking over the ranks at these agencies.. Younger folks frustrated with the current situation of there system may going to do some great things.. Simplification and optimization one can hope.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Alright, I think there are some major misconceptions here, both about the study, and about the role of various powers in our region. 

The study itself is not draining your precious tax dollars from the subways. It is being conducted by a PANYNJ-hired consultant, with input from the MTA and NJT. What's more, it isn't just looking at the  extension. Here's the quote from the article:

I have a feeling Cotton was just being politic, as subway system expansion is sure to garner more support and press than the same for PATH. I also have a feeling that the  alternative will be eliminated pretty early on for the operational reasons stated upthread. I think some version of 'moarrrr PATH' will be the study's conclusion. 

 

Now, in the unlikely event they select the , what happens to us current MTA riders?

Financially, nothing, actually. The MTA has no jurisdiction whatsoever beyond the Hudson River, and would therefore be unable to take any active role in tunnel construction. This would be a Port Authority gig, funded from its bi-state budget. Operation, too, would not be an MTA concern. I honestly do not know how this would work, because once again, the MTA can't operate outside its geographical purview, namely, the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, in which special taxes and fees related to the MTA apply. This is why the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines are operated by NJT. So basically, for this to work, either Hudson County would have to join the tax district (requiring federal legislation, as the MTA is a state not federal authority), or it would have to operate under contract to the PA or NJDOT like Metro North does in Connecticut with CTDOT. In both cases, the agency would not have to absorb any negative financial impact from the operation. 

But as stated before, this  drama is unlikely to come to pass. What is likely -- and necessary -- is more PATH lines. These again, would be constructed and operated by the PA. And these, both by merit of our commitment to undertake such projects by creating the PA, and by merit of our needing a workforce, we should support. We want to make it as easy as possible to get to Manhattan (or Brooklyn or wherever in the city) because the easier it is, the more people do it, and thus the more growth and activity NYC becomes party to. That's economics 101, and that's the model we need to embrace -- enough of this reductive sectionalism. And for those of you who worry that your oh so precious tax dollars will be going to those horrid New Jerseyans, don't. The PANYNJ doesn't receive any tax dollars from either of its states. It builds through bonds from its own credit. 

Now, an admittedly tangential word on the Port Authority. That agency is unequivocally the region's biggest untapped asset. It has a charter that gives it power over the metropolitan area on both sides of the river, and one that allows it to do whatever the f*ck it likes within that region. If you don't believe me, look at its history. Originally, its job was to create an organized terminal freight rail system for New York Harbor -- a task during which it built/gained control of all three Hudson River road crossings. When that organizational effort failed, it went into the port business in Newark, where it facilitated the reinvention of global shipping by assisting Malcolm MacLean with the development of the container. With proceeds from these streams, it bought all three major NYC airports, giving it control of the skies as well as the seas. And then, when it saw a struggling commuter system with valuable land, it bought the H&M, bringing it into the commuter transport business. It really is the jack of all trades, but one we allow to lie fallow because our silo-loving politicians are too scared of a regional authority with sharp teeth. If we wanted to, it would take just a few charter revisions to combine the services of NJT and the MTA under that roof, et voila, transportational unity.

I think the way the press is framing Cotton’s words - plus past  extension proposals - is what’s got so many posters up in arms over this latest study. The papers and online media - including the New York Times article posted on Subchat and the Railroad.net NYC subway/PATH forum and the Daily News article linked to in the first post - are framing it as if the  is already what they have in mind for the new connection. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. But the media are already running with that and so are a large number of their readers/watchers/listeners.

I’ll restate my strong preference for a new PATH train service over extending the  or . But if they do determine that it’s more feasible and cost effective to extend one of Manhattan’s two self-contained NYC subway lines, I would very much prefer it to be the  over the . 

Somehow, I get the feeling it would be easier said than done to do a few charter revisions and put the already gargantuan MTA and NJT under Port Authority auspices. The aforementioned silo-loving NJ and NY politicians are just one reason why. But just think about how big and unwieldy a bi-state Port Authority (well, tri-state, because it would also be responsible for the NY/CT Metro North New Haven Line and its branches too). You’d be putting two very large agencies under control of another very large agency. Unless you spin off the NYC Subway and buses, the PATH train, the SI Rapid Transit, the Newark City Subway  and the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail and possibly also the local bus routes in Bergen, Essex and Hudson counties into a new separate bi-state transit authority, with oversight being handled mostly by NYC and the three NJ counties - and, of course, much less oversight from Albany and Trenton! Maybe something along the lines of Metro Transit in St. Louis, which operates the MetroLink light rail system, the buses and paratransit services in St. Louis, plus its close-in suburbs in Missouri and Illinois.

15 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

It's not about who pays, it's about the possibility of cost overruns, and even if NJ is footing most of the money, the MTA will still need to be heavily involved in the oversight and planning of the construction, because it will have to be built to NYCT specifications, and I'm sure the MTA and NJ Transit unions will find something to be upset about, because they always do (see the Amtrak and LIRR union dispute). I'm not confident in the MTA's ability to cooperate with other agencies and keep costs under control given their recent history.

That may very well be, but they wouldn’t be the lead agency here; Port Authority would be. If they do this wisely, they’ll choose a PATH train alternative and build it according to PATH dimensions and standards.

[CDTA]

People seem to be forgetting that any PATH expansion involves signifant construction in New York City. By extending the you eliminate that cost, which is likely to be the most expensive part of the project, which actually reduces the overall cost to New York as any of the cross-river projects are going to be funded by us through PANYNJ anyways. There's also a benefit for the city that's only available through a extension; Direct access to LIC from NJ and vice versa, which'll allow for untold development in the area. Don't be so quick to knock it.

Also worth noting for the first time this gives Westchester/CT residents a two-seat ride to New Jersey and again, vice versa.

[Deucey]

22 minutes ago, CDTA said:

People seem to be forgetting that any PATH expansion involves signifant construction in New York City. By extending the you eliminate that cost, which is likely to be the most expensive part of the project, which actually reduces the overall cost to New York as any of the cross-river projects are going to be funded by us through PANYNJ anyways. There's also a benefit for the city that's only available through a extension; Direct access to LIC from NJ and vice versa, which'll allow for untold development in the area. Don't be so quick to knock it.

Also worth noting for the first time this gives Westchester/CT residents a two-seat ride to New Jersey and again, vice versa.

They already have one - MNRR to Amtrak.

[RailRunRob]

16 minutes ago, Deucey said:

They already have one - MNRR to Amtrak.

Is that a two-seat ride?  More like a 3 seat. I live in Jersey City and work in Stamford.. Or White Plains. How do we get that flexibility. 

Also, why does it cost more to go from Newark to Stamford than San Deigo to LA? by Rail? We need to do better.

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, kosciusko said:

I think VG8 is right on the mark here, the NYC subway should make sure it's own home is in order before it decides to transverse the bureaucratic red tape required for it to expand into NJ. I think in MAYBE in 70 years world we should be looking at this expansion, but if we can barely connect the LIRR to Grand Central without going obscenely over-budget and behind schedule what makes you think we can bring the  all the way to Secaucus without making the same errors? 

I happen to agree with  VG8. The problem is the way the headline was written and framed. This is not a new proposal by any means. Variations of it have circulated for years in regional conferences and even on various forums. Go back and search this forum or newspaper archives via Google and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't think anyone with any political clout on either side of the Hudson would suggest or support the having anything to do with such a project. It's my opinion that the cant run it's existing projects in anything resembling a businesslike manner so leave them out of the discussion. ESA, and the third mainline track of the LIRR through Nassau County is the last gasp of mega-projects for the agency. I personally doubt if phase 2 of the SAS subway project will even be completed no matter if funds are allocated or not. I think the way the headline was written is what has many posters upset . If it said the was possibly considered to run railroad service to NJ would there be this level of outcry on the forum ? I doubt it. There is regional cooperation railroad-wise between states already with the West of Hudson   lines and New Haven railroad service. Many folks seem to forget that the City of New York owns the subway system and the city, not the   ,would have to agree to any such idea. What I'm saying is that the "subway" part is a throw in and not a real proposal. As Deucey, Rail Run Rob, and I have pointed out there's an existing agency which already operates a cross-Hudson operation. It's also a fact that the PANY&NJ didn't want to run the H&M railroad, today's PATH, because it was a money loser. They had to take over the rail operation in exchange for the rights to build the original WTC. They already control the shipping and airports in the Downstate area. Let them be the lead agency in this discussion. Carry on.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, CDTA said:

People seem to be forgetting that any PATH expansion involves signifant construction in New York City. By extending the you eliminate that cost, which is likely to be the most expensive part of the project, which actually reduces the overall cost to New York as any of the cross-river projects are going to be funded by us through PANYNJ anyways. There's also a benefit for the city that's only available through a extension; Direct access to LIC from NJ and vice versa, which'll allow for untold development in the area. Don't be so quick to knock it.

Also worth noting for the first time this gives Westchester/CT residents a two-seat ride to New Jersey and again, vice versa.

A  extension will require significant construction in New York City too. The platforms and stairways at Grand Central, 5th Ave and Times Square have enough difficulty handling the existing  line crowds coming from and going to Queens. Those platforms will become downright dangerous if you add in passengers coming from or going to North Jersey, especially if there are delays (of which there will almost certainly be). 

And touting direct access from North Jersey to LIC isn’t necessarily a good thing. Not if the subway line, specifically its tiny cars and narrow platforms weren’t designed to handle it and don’t easily lend themselves to expansion to handle the increased traffic.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

What I'm saying is that the "subway" part is a throw in and not a real proposal. As Deucey, Rail Run Rob, and I have pointed out there's an existing agency which already operates a cross-Hudson operation. It's also a fact that the PANY&NJ didn't want to run the H&M railroad, today's PATH, because it was a money loser. They had to take over the rail operation in exchange for the rights to build the original WTC. They already control the shipping and airports in the Downstate area. Let them be the lead agency in this discussion. Carry on.

As I said above, the MTA is legally forbidden from not only constructing any such line, but also from operating it without contract or subsidy of some sort. This is gonna be a Port Authority project through and through. And FWIW the PA is the leader in this discussion. It's a PA study, funded with PA money. The only MTA involvement is 'input,' despite the press focus on the  which is not by any means the only option being considered.

As for the PA wanting/not wanting PATH, sure, they didn't then, but now they see it as a loss leader for their WTC stuff (which it is), and (with EWR extension) for their Airport assets too. 

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Somehow, I get the feeling it would be easier said than done to do a few charter revisions and put the already gargantuan MTA and NJT under Port Authority auspices. The aforementioned silo-loving NJ and NY politicians are just one reason why. But just think about how big and unwieldy a bi-state Port Authority (well, tri-state, because it would also be responsible for the NY/CT Metro North New Haven Line and its branches too). You’d be putting two very large agencies under control of another very large agency. Unless you spin off the NYC Subway and buses, the PATH train, the SI Rapid Transit, the Newark City Subway  and the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail and possibly also the local bus routes in Bergen, Essex and Hudson counties into a new separate bi-state transit authority, with oversight being handled mostly by NYC and the three NJ counties - and, of course, much less oversight from Albany and Trenton! Maybe something along the lines of Metro Transit in St. Louis, which operates the MetroLink light rail system, the buses and paratransit services in St. Louis, plus its close-in suburbs in Missouri and Illinois.

Of course, yes. Merging some of the largest public authorities in the world is no small task. I'm talking from a purely legal perspective. 

This super-PA would remain bi-state -- CT services are operated under contract -- but as you say, would see the number of moving parts in it increased exponentially. Governance would definitely change -- as you say NYC, Newark, Hoboken, and the commuter counties will probably all want seats on the board -- as would funding. As mentioned above, the PA recieves no taxpayer dollars, and unless we're looking for insta-bankrupt, the PA will need some serious $$$ if it is to operate all commuter/transit in the region. 

I would not spin off any parts of the MTA in this merger. What I would do, however, is give NJT's South Jersey stuff to an expanded SEPTA, who would be able to structure them better in the context of their service region. Then we have two consolidated transit portfolios and institutional rationalization. 

[bobtehpanda]

17 hours ago, RR503 said:

Times NJ was there with a thick wad of cash helping us with things that would have little positive effect (negative in some cases) for them:

-Building WTC's buildings (both times)

-Rebuilding JFK's terminals 

-Constructing new terminals at LGA

-Building the Oculus

-Red Hook Container Terminal upkeep

-Howland Hook upkeep

So, don't you think it's time we returned the favor, especially given that we'd benefit greatly too?

I agree. Remember, this study is evaluating more than just the  to NJ, so the construction of another PATH line will be in the cards. 

 

JFK is tit for tat with EWR rehabilitation. WTC was the sweetener to absorb PATH, which is still the Port Authority's single biggest money loser. Oculus was a joint project (it's a PATH station, remember?) and was supposed to be funded with 9/11 money. And the ports are literally their raison d'etre. None of this is as questionable of an expenditure as say, rehabbing the Pulsaki skyway.

I don't think we'd benefit greatly. Unlike the PATH, which is plenty usable for a reverse commute, Secaucus Junction is literally an undeveloped mess that they've been trying to make happen for decades at this point. When is Xanadu/American Dream supposed to be opening, again? And on top of that it's an unattractive mode transfer, since around NJ Transit rail stations past Secaucus there's not a lot of jobs around the stations either.

15 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Umm, there's some fact there. Zoning prob had something do with that as well. Some of these areas served as commercial and industrial hubs and feeders for the region and City due to there proximity to NYC.. Shipping and good's.. Geography  I have to look at places like Secaucus and Moonachie built on the same marsh that occupies the overall area. I have a friend that just locked a Condo in Harrison that's starting to fill in that gap Between Newark About 7 miles from Manhattan It's 7 miles from Inwood to Midtown. So what is Developable? And it's about 4 miles of open space These areas had the same conditions and were developed  My point in all of this why wouldn't you take maybe a Bergen,Hudson,Union, Essex and part of Passaic add Westchester, Rockland Fairfield to the 5 boroughs and Nassau at the very least and create some type of integrated Metro District? Wouldnt that alleviate some of the issues we have now? Better integrated transport and services.Even opening up the housing market with more supply, options, and cost. Maybe that land between Jamaica and Midtown would be a bit more affordable. 

Realistically speaking, people will commute for an hour max in one direction. A train extension actually does pretty close to nothing to speed up travel time to Manhattan; who's going to want to take the slower option over say, a Gateway tunnel?

The Meadowlands is not developable. First, they tried; how long has Xanadu/American Dream been in construction hell? And it's not developable for a reason; after all, this is where a third of the NJT fleet flooded after Sandy. We have enough infrastructure and development in vulnerable areas as it is, let's not double down on land that no one has successfully developed for the past century.

15 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Stop with the Tax.. that's your rent for parking your derrière in Riverdale. NJ residents pay NY a handsome amount of tax as well. Employees as well as visitors. It's all interconnected whether you understand it or not doesn't make it not true. Look The PA is looking into it. I think both States understand whats on the table They both have something substantial to lose If there were any issues with these bi-State links. All cards and options need to be on the table. Path,  , NJT ,bus. It's so crazy to me when people talk about existing laws and restrictions. As if they weren't new Or nonexisting at some point with people opposing them as well. You have to be resourceful, creative and diligent to keep moving forward. Stagnation = death.. decline. Keeping it the way it is may not be an option is all I'm saying. 

IOUs and hugs and kisses don't pay the bills. Creativity doesn't pay the bondholders. The MTA has dedicated taxes for operations. They can put up by signing up to the same taxes the same way I did for over 20 years living in this city, or they can shut up.

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

As I said above, the MTA is legally forbidden from not only constructing any such line, but also from operating it without contract or subsidy of some sort. This is gonna be a Port Authority project through and through. And FWIW the PA is the leader in this discussion. It's a PA study, funded with PA money. The only MTA involvement is 'input,' despite the press focus on the  which is not by any means the only option being considered.

As for the PA wanting/not wanting PATH, sure, they didn't then, but now they see it as a loss leader for their WTC stuff (which it is), and (with EWR extension) for their Airport assets too. 

Of course, yes. Merging some of the largest public authorities in the world is no small task. I'm talking from a purely legal perspective. 

This super-PA would remain bi-state -- CT services are operated under contract -- but as you say, would see the number of moving parts in it increased exponentially. Governance would definitely change -- as you say NYC, Newark, Hoboken, and the commuter counties will probably all want seats on the board -- as would funding. As mentioned above, the PA recieves no taxpayer dollars, and unless we're looking for insta-bankrupt, the PA will need some serious $$$ if it is to operate all commuter/transit in the region. 

I would not spin off any parts of the MTA in this merger. What I would do, however, is give NJT's South Jersey stuff to an expanded SEPTA, who would be able to structure them better in the context of their service region. Then we have two consolidated transit portfolios and institutional rationalization. 

Contracts only work if you are willing to fight the good fight to enforce them and you trust the other partner to be in good faith. The MTA has gotten the short end of the deal multiple times when it comes to paying for operational things (student Metrocards, Long Island Bus during its existence, state "dedicated" taxes.) The Port Authority can spend all of its money doing all the foolish things they could ever want, that doesn't mean I have to approve of it.

Merging things into a federal authority is a non-starter, mostly because you couldn't possibly give it region-specific taxing authority (most definitely unconstitutional because it'd be the feds basically making a state in and of itself) and funding is just promises. Look at all the fighting around WMATA to see how well that actually works out.

[BreeddekalbL]

Sheez does the PA have endless bounds to keep f**king the peoples money with endless studies like this?

[RailRunRob]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Realistically speaking, people will commute for an hour max in one direction. A train extension actually does pretty close to nothing to speed up travel time to Manhattan; who's going to want to take the slower option over say, a Gateway tunnel?

 

The message I got was the Gateway may not be enough to satisfy regional growth but just were catching up to what we should have implement decades ago. So wouldn't the Gateway already be factored in with any  or Path option? More options more bandwidth.  You have major development on the Eastside, Hudson Yards and in LIC wouldn't something like this give riders more robust options? Why is this any different than what the PATH is doing already by siphoning riders going to lower Manhattan? 

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The Meadowlands is not developable. First, they tried; how long has Xanadu/American Dream been in construction hell? And it's not developable for a reason; after all, this is where a third of the NJT fleet flooded after Sandy. We have enough infrastructure and development in vulnerable areas as it is, let's not double down on land that no one has successfully developed for the past century.

 

Again I don't know what they did wrong.. Pylons, weight distribution but I just gave two towns built atop the same conditions.. Moonachie and Secaucus both on the Meadowlands. True with the new issues with warming flooding is something to be planned around. But if a City like Boston can transform land and refine its borders the Meadowlands is a cakewalk. I don't see the issue with a will there's a way.

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

IOUs and hugs and kisses don't pay the bills. Creativity doesn't pay the bondholders. The MTA has dedicated taxes for operations. They can put up by signing up to the same taxes the same way I did for over 20 years living in this city, or they can shut up.

Creativity and bold thinking keeps more money coming and growth overall. Isnt that the goal. I won't speak to if you run or conduct business at any level. But I can speak for my day to day and as someone that deal's in contracts with both State and City agencies, speak's to District and community boards the process isn't zero-sum and reality is all of this is fickle. Hugs and kisses huh? Yeah, your right it's kickbacks and positioning the payout. BOE, MTA we've never lost a contract with that approach. This idea to me over the long run it's about bring more money into the City. It's crazy to me that some people don't see that. As an employer, I have 4 people on my team that live in NJ and one looking into it.. better access to get them work mean's more productivity for my business more taxes for the City and the State. I'm small potatoes Hudson Yards, Midtown East are big business. Better access means a higher ceiling more commerce recreation and possibilities. So yeah okay add NJ to MTA tax plan what's the big deal. I've paid taxes for over 20 years and enabling and another 10 people to pay taxes as well (Shurgs). Prosperity and profits sometimes even the illusion of it can change policies and law. Just make sure you give Uncle Paulie his cut while you're at it.  Anyone in the game knows this. 

[LGA Link N Train]

I've been reading this thread for quite some time without replying and earlier someone brought up the fact that the PATH and NYCT should be combined. If that were to Happen, would buy PATH or no? I'd support a Proposal like that but I'm unsure if that Idea is even feasible.  Anyways, from what I observed, a extension would be operationally feasible but not to Secaucus. I'd rather get Gateway done and out of the way so that we could combine the 3 Commuter Rail lines (LIRR, MNRR, and NJT) Any NJ extension should be done by PANYNJ for reasons stated above. Preferably, I'd leave the alone and throw all of that money into Gateway. 

 

I'm at a loss of words right now

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

The message I got was the Gateway may not be enough to satisfy regional growth but just were catching up to what we should have implement decades ago. So wouldn't the Gateway already be factored in with any  or Path option? More options more bandwidth.  You have major development on the Eastside, Hudson Yards and in LIC wouldn't something like this give riders more robust options? Why is this any different than what the PATH is doing already by siphoning riders going to lower Manhattan? 

Again I don't know what they did wrong.. Pylons, weight distribution but I just gave two towns built atop the same conditions.. Moonachie and Secaucus both on the Meadowlands. True with the new issues with warming flooding is something to be planned around. But if a City like Boston can transform land and refine its borders the Meadowlands is a cakewalk. I don't see the issue with a will there's a way.

Creativity and bold thinking keeps more money coming and growth overall. Isnt that the goal. I won't speak to if you run or conduct business at any level. But I can speak for my day to day and as someone that deal's in contracts with both State and City agencies, speak's to District and community boards the process isn't zero-sum and reality is all of this is fickle. Hugs and kisses huh? Yeah, your right it's kickbacks and positioning the payout. BOE, MTA we've never lost a contract with that approach. This idea to me over the long run it's about bring more money into the City. It's crazy to me that some people don't see that. As an employer, I have 4 people on my team that live in NJ and one looking into it.. better access to get them work mean's more productivity for my business more taxes for the City and the State. I'm small potatoes Hudson Yards, Midtown East are big business. Better access means a higher ceiling more commerce recreation and possibilities. So yeah okay add NJ to MTA tax plan what's the big deal. I've paid taxes for over 20 years and enabling and another 10 people to pay taxes as well (Shurgs). Prosperity and profits sometimes even the illusion of it can change policies and law. Just make sure you give Uncle Paulie his cut while you're at it.  Anyone in the game knows this. 

The majority of PATH ridership comes from the fact that Hoboken Terminal does not have a direct rail connection to Manhattan, and the development of high rises in the flat, developable land in its vicinity. The first condition straight up doesn't exist at Secaucus and the second has been attempted many times but never worked out.

There's been the will for decades. It hasn't been the way. And the Meadowlands being marshes is actually an important function because they soak up a lot of storm surge, the same way that Corona Park was created to protect Queens from storm surge. Sandy was big, but Sandy was also a Category 1 storm; based on the records, we are actually supposed to expect Category 3 storms every 75 years. We haven't had ours yet. Paving over the Meadowlands is asking for another Katrina or another Harvey. As far as Boston goes, Boston is so far north that whatever hurricanes they get have usually been weakened by hitting us first, assuming those storms don't just blow out east towards the Atlantic. It's like asking "Why do we have to build earthquake-resistant buildings in California? Detroit doesn't have to."

Creativity is great when you're talking about peanuts, small businesses and the community boards. Creativity when billions of dollars is at stake is how you get messes like a $4B WTC Hub, Enron, Fannie Mae, and Wells Fargo. It might bring more benefits to the macro level at the end of the day, but at the end of the day the bottom line is the taxes I pay and my cost of living. Why should New York spend billions of dollars on the fuzzy notion of "togetherness" when we've got billions of dollars of liabilities in our state? Fix up your own house before you start fixing up others.

Politics is different when we are talking in the hundreds of millions and billions. You can't force another state to do something, heck we can barely convince our own states to do something for us. But at least with our own states there is impunity. The NJ Republicans are now getting punished for Chris Christie running NJ Transit into the ground; if NJ decides they don't want to fund their share of service then we're left with a white elephant that used up billions of dollars of taxpayer money on both sides of the Hudson and New York has nothing to show for it and no way to force NJ back to the table for our share of the capital costs. If New Jersey wants another connection so bad, they should keep it in house so that only they are responsible and feel the effects of their own foolishness.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The majority of PATH ridership comes from the fact that Hoboken Terminal does not have a direct rail connection to Manhattan, and the development of high rises in the flat, developable land in its vicinity. The first condition straight up doesn't exist at Secaucus and the second has been attempted many times but never worked out.

There's been the will for decades. It hasn't been the way. And the Meadowlands being marshes is actually an important function because they soak up a lot of storm surge, the same way that Corona Park was created to protect Queens from storm surge. Sandy was big, but Sandy was also a Category 1 storm; based on the records, we are actually supposed to expect Category 3 storms every 75 years. We haven't had ours yet. Paving over the Meadowlands is asking for another Katrina or another Harvey. As far as Boston goes, Boston is so far north that whatever hurricanes they get have usually been weakened by hitting us first, assuming those storms don't just blow out east towards the Atlantic. It's like asking "Why do we have to build earthquake-resistant buildings in California? Detroit doesn't have to."

Creativity is great when you're talking about peanuts, small businesses and the community boards. Creativity when billions of dollars is at stake is how you get messes like a $4B WTC Hub, Enron, Fannie Mae, and Wells Fargo. It might bring more benefits to the macro level at the end of the day, but at the end of the day the bottom line is the taxes I pay and my cost of living. Why should New York spend billions of dollars on the fuzzy notion of "togetherness" when we've got billions of dollars of liabilities in our state? Fix up your own house before you start fixing up others.

Politics is different when we are talking in the hundreds of millions and billions. You can't force another state to do something, heck we can barely convince our own states to do something for us. But at least with our own states there is impunity. The NJ Republicans are now getting punished for Chris Christie running NJ Transit into the ground; if NJ decides they don't want to fund their share of service then we're left with a white elephant that used up billions of dollars of taxpayer money on both sides of the Hudson and New York has nothing to show for it and no way to force NJ back to the table for our share of the capital costs. If New Jersey wants another connection so bad, they should keep it in house so that only they are responsible and feel the effects of their own foolishness.

That's exactly what I've been saying.  We have enough of our $hit to deal with...

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The majority of PATH ridership comes from the fact that Hoboken Terminal does not have a direct rail connection to Manhattan, and the development of high rises in the flat, developable land in its vicinity. The first condition straight up doesn't exist at Secaucus and the second has been attempted many times but never worked out.

Umm a part of that argument is factful. Let's keep in mind that Newark does see more ridership than Hoboken most used station on the NJ side. Now the correlation between NJT ridership transfer so I can't fully solve for X. I guess the question is how many riders coming into Penn continue their trip to points north and east? The Gateway has to happen I'm not questioning that! But with that extra capacity into Penn there spilling into the MTA's system anyway. But at a more concentrated point. (IE the or   ) A or a new Path connection offset this and would work with the Gateway. If you're saying the region is growing these people have to go somewhere once they get to Penn. That becomes the choke point. These other options and plans being looked into I look at them as spillways almost. Seems I'm not alone unless these plans and studies wouldn't keep coming up. 

The Meadowlands point .Okay, Natural Environmental needs I understand that it's logical. But that, not an It can't be development.. That's a "It shouldn't be development point it's detrimental! Understood.

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Creativity is great when you're talking about peanuts, small businesses and the community boards. Creativity when billions of dollars is at stake is how you get messes like a $4B WTC Hub, Enron, Fannie Mae, and Wells Fargo. It might bring more benefits to the macro level at the end of the day, but at the end of the day the bottom line is the taxes I pay and my cost of living. Why should New York spend billions of dollars on the fuzzy notion of "togetherness" when we've got billions of dollars of liabilities in our state? Fix up your own house before you start fixing up others.

4

Were thinking on two different frequencies here. No right or wrongs. Understand I fully understand were you're coming from. Creativity?  Maybe we need to define this term think about the founding principles that built this Country. The Constitution was this not creative and based on thinking outside of the box and flexibility? This is still in place over 200 years later. I'm not jaded or dreaming by any stretch.  Every company and project you just named is a byproduct of a stagnant system and guess what they're going to be a hell of a lot more to come for you to continue to name.. Isn't the holistic picture to unify the region for more options for prosperity?  Millions and Billions on the line? Guy, we're talking Trillions and the whole" This your side and their side and this there responsibility and that's NJ's this is NY" Is stopping the region and the Country as a whole from getting more. There's more options, power, and strength in a group. That's my point how do you break the cycle? Fixing your house before others?  Man, it should all be one house.  Let's see how long this system will last time will tell.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

But with that extra capacity into Penn there spilling into the MTA's system anyway. But at a more concentrated point. (IE the or   ) A or a new Path connection offset this and would work with the Gateway. If you're saying the region is growing these people have to go somewhere once they get to Penn. That becomes the choke point.

Even before I moved here and read about ARC, I never understood why the plan was to connect it to Penn - since it's already over capacity, instead of doing something more efficient like building another station or connecting ARC/Gateway to GCT (via Eastside Access or by joining with the existing Park Av tracks).

Awful lot of money being spent to make a bad place worse (unless new platforms are going in under the Post Office when this new tunnel is built.