Lawrence's Bus Network Redesign

[checkmatechamp13]

@Lawrence St I just realized, are you eliminating the 18th Avenue portion of the B8, the 60th Street portion of the B9, and the B63 north of 39th Street? Those are all very important segments of those routes.

Also, the B70 swings back towards the VA Hospital because the B16 already provides service towards the western end of 86th Street. No need to have that B17 of yours terminate at 95th Street. 

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@Lawrence St I just realized, are you eliminating the 18th Avenue portion of the B8, the 60th Street portion of the B9, and the B63 north of 39th Street? Those are all very important segments of those routes.

Also, the B70 swings back towards the VA Hospital because the B16 already provides service towards the western end of 86th Street. No need to have that B17 of yours terminate at 95th Street. 

Those are all getting attached to other routes.

So leave the B70 as it is?

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Those are all getting attached to other routes.

So leave the B70 as it is?

I'd say yes, except for maybe cutting it back to the 36th Street subway station (or 3rd Avenue & 37th Street). 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'd say yes, except for maybe cutting it back to the 36th Street subway station (or 3rd Avenue & 37th Street). 

That would be a better turning point, as it brings people by Industry City.

[Lawrence St]

Some new updates:

B21 LTD: Coney Island - Stillwell Av to Rockaway Park-B 116th St via Avenue U and Shore Pkwy.

B90: Kingsboro CC to Sea Gate.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Some new updates:

B21 LTD: Coney Island - Stillwell Av to Rockaway Park-B 116th St via Avenue U and Shore Pkwy.

B90: Kingsboro CC to Sea Gate.

Why is the B21 using Shore Parkway? Emmons Av is a two-way St up to Knapp. That B90 bus from Manhattan Beach would only steal riders from the B49 and B36. Speaking of which, where are those lines? I lived in Southern Brooklyn for half of my life, so some of these changes seem strange. You also only have one bus line serving Coney Island Hospital??!? Really?

Manhattan Beach is almost entirely residential, so people take the B49 up to do shopping and other things in Sheepshead Bay.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Why is the B21 using Shore Parkway? Emmons Av is a two-way St up to Knapp. That B90 bus from Manhattan Beach would only steal riders from the B49 and B36. Speaking of which, where are those lines? I lived in Southern Brooklyn for half of my life, so some of these changes seem strange. You also only have one bus line serving Coney Island Hospital??!? Really?

Manhattan Beach is almost entirely residential, so people take the B49 up to do shopping and other things in Sheepshead Bay.

Because it’s part of the original B4, anyone getting on Shore Parkway loses service if it goes straight across Emmons.

And no, there are more lines. I just haven’t drawn them yet.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Because it’s part of the original B4, anyone getting on Shore Parkway loses service if it goes straight across Emmons.

And no, there are more lines. I just haven’t drawn them yet.

That B21 route is a weird one. Who is ridership base supposed to be? I'm just wondering who would be using it. You're not going to get that much ridership along some parts of Knapp St, particularly the areas where the Water Treatment plant is and on the Gerritsen Beach border. Most people drive over there. With the movie theater there and a few other important things, some people may ride it, but it doesn't connect to the subway, which is a very important connection. Everyone east of E 16th St takes the B4, B36 and B49 to the Sheepshead Bay subway station, which is why the current B4 deviates off of Emmons Av and takes Voorhies up to Avenue Z to also connect with the B49 and B36 if need be. In fact that is one of the biggest draws of the current B4. I speak as someone born and raised in Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach, who has also spent a lot of time in neighboring areas that the B4 runs in, such as Gravesend, Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, etc., and still frequent these areas. 

I also don't know about splitting the B4, which is what it seems like you did here. Back in the day, I would say that would be fine, but demographics have changed a bit so that you get more people riding the B4 in Gravesend and along 86th St up to Stillwell and further west.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That B21 route is a weird one. Who is ridership base supposed to be? I'm just wondering who would be using it. You're not going to get that much ridership along some parts of Knapp St, particularly the areas where the Water Treatment plant is and on the Gerritsen Beach border. Most people drive over there. With the movie theater there and a few other important things, some people may ride it, but it doesn't connect to the subway, which is a very important connection. Everyone east of E 16th St takes the B4, B36 and B49 to the Sheepshead Bay subway station, which is why the current B4 deviates off of Emmons Av and takes Voorhies up to Avenue Z to also connect with the B49 and B36 if need be. In fact that is one of the biggest draws of the current B4. I speak as someone born and raised in Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach, who has also spent a lot of time in neighboring areas that the B4 runs in, such as Gravesend, Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, etc., and still frequent these areas. 

I also don't know about splitting the B4, which is what it seems like you did here. Back in the day, I would say that would be fine, but demographics have changed a bit so that you get more people riding the B4 in Gravesend and along 86th St up to Stillwell and further west.

The B21 connects to CI Station.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The B21 connects to CI Station.

I know, but that's not the Sheepshead Bay station, which is what those riders want to connect to.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That B21 route is a weird one. Who is ridership base supposed to be? I'm just wondering who would be using it. You're not going to get that much ridership along some parts of Knapp St, particularly the areas where the Water Treatment plant is and on the Gerritsen Beach border. Most people drive over there. With the movie theater there and a few other important things, some people may ride it, but it doesn't connect to the subway, which is a very important connection. Everyone east of E 16th St takes the B4, B36 and B49 to the Sheepshead Bay subway station, which is why the current B4 deviates off of Emmons Av and takes Voorhies up to Avenue Z to also connect with the B49 and B36 if need be. In fact that is one of the biggest draws of the current B4. I speak as someone born and raised in Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach, who has also spent a lot of time in neighboring areas that the B4 runs in, such as Gravesend, Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, etc., and still frequent these areas. 

I also don't know about splitting the B4, which is what it seems like you did here. Back in the day, I would say that would be fine, but demographics have changed a bit so that you get more people riding the B4 in Gravesend and along 86th St up to Stillwell and further west.

That's totally not an understatement...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

That's totally not an understatement...

The surrounding area is mainly homeowners or people living in co-ops, so those people move there knowing the situation and either drive or get picked up. Grew up with a few people that lived over there when I was high school. The B4 was terrible even back in the 90s. Many times when I was in junior high, I can recall waiting a good 45 minutes for a bus, and I think at that time that bus was supposed to run every 15 minutes. Then if you look at other attractions like that nursing home by Shore Parkway and Knapp, usually everyone waiting wants the B44, just because it's usually workers and they live elsewhere in Brooklyn.

Over the years, that entire area (meaning from Emmons and Knapp over the Sheepshead Bay station) has garnered a little more ridership, perhaps because of that school on Shore Parkway and some demographic changes, but still nothing mind blowing. A few more people shop or frequent the restaurants on Emmons too I suppose, but again, most people drive, be it those that live in the area, or those visiting the area.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

So I made a modification:

I extended the B13 to Avenue V to make it a true crosstown connection. The B12 still ends at Kings Highway. (Ignore the B11)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

52 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So I made a modification:

I extended the B13 to Avenue V to make it a true crosstown connection. The B12 still ends at Kings Highway. (Ignore the B11)

Still lots of issues with your proposal. For starters, having the  terminate at Shore Rd & 86th forces subway riders to have to transfer to the  to finish their trip, thereby necessitating an additional fare. Makes no sense. I also don't understand the point of having the  terminate at Shore Rd & 86th St, nor the two branches of the (B18)? 

Does the  have three terminals? Looks like it terminates by the Kings Hwy subway station. If it's the  you should make it clear that it terminates there. Is the Southeastern part of the  terminating at Kings Plaza?

I also don't understand cutting off access to the VA Hospital with this  route. Not a good idea. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Around the Horn]

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So I made a modification:

I extended the B13 to Avenue V to make it a true crosstown connection. The B12 still ends at Kings Highway. (Ignore the B11)

The B18 branch physically cannot make that move because 92nd Street becomes one way west of 4th Avenue

Also Bay Ridge Av on the B13 becomes one way east of 13th Avenue so its gonna have to make that turn up to 65th Street there.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

The B18 branch physically cannot make that move because 92nd Street becomes one way west of 4th Avenue

Also Bay Ridge Av on the B13 becomes one way east of 13th Avenue so its gonna have to make that turn up to 65th Street there.

Which B18 branch? The LTD or the off peak?

Would you want the B13 using 65th St in one direction or both directions? And in reality, how hard would it be to convert BRA into two way?

[Around the Horn]

22 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Which B18 branch? The LTD or the off peak?

Would you want the B13 using 65th St in one direction or both directions? And in reality, how hard would it be to convert BRA into two way?

Actually now that I'm looking at it closer, both B18 branches have potential problems. The LTD through Fort Hamilton may be an issue (the B8 was kicked out after 9/11 by the army) and the off peak branch could theoretically continue westbound to 92nd and 3rd however coming back east would be an issue since 92nd become one way westbound west of 4th Avenue. I would have it take the current B8 route in the area since the other streets are pretty tight for a bus.

[Lawrence St]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:38 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Still lots of issues with your proposal. For starters, having the  terminate at Shore Rd & 86th forces subway riders to have to transfer to the  to finish their trip, thereby necessitating an additional fare. Makes no sense. I also don't understand the point of having the  terminate at Shore Rd & 86th St, nor the two branches of the (B18)? 

Does the  have three terminals? Looks like it terminates by the Kings Hwy subway station. If it's the  you should make it clear that it terminates there. Is the Southeastern part of the  terminating at Kings Plaza?

I also don't understand cutting off access to the VA Hospital with this  route. Not a good idea. 

I'm not understanding some of your points.

How does the B16 ending at Shore & 86th force subway riders to transfer to the B13 if they can just get off at Bay Ridge Avenue and transfer?

B14: Because since the B13 already serves Shore Road, there's no point in having the B14 also run north or south of that point. I could have it go down 9th Ave, but then that just duplicates service in an area where traffic is already prone to back up.

The B13 runs from 4th & Shore to Avenue V, with some trips alternating at Kings Hwy The B12 runs from DUMBO to Kings Highway.

Unless I misread the comment, didn't someone on here say don't have the B17 running to VA? 

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Actually now that I'm looking at it closer, both B18 branches have potential problems. The LTD through Fort Hamilton may be an issue (the B8 was kicked out after 9/11 by the army) and the off peak branch could theoretically continue westbound to 92nd and 3rd however coming back east would be an issue since 92nd become one way westbound west of 4th Avenue. I would have it take the current B8 route in the area since the other streets are pretty tight for a bus.

Will do.

[Lawrence St]

Alright, South Brooklyn is done! (Minus some of the North-South connectors, which will be shown in Mid-Brooklyn).

 

Regular:

B12: DUMBO to Kings Hwy  via 7th Av/16th AV.

B13: 4 Av/Ft Hamilton Pkwy to Avenue V via 65th St.

B17: 36th St  to VA Hospital via 95th St Station. (Off-peak service ends at 95th St)

B18 LCL: Coney Island Station to 95th St Station. 

B18 LTD: Coney Island Station to 36th St Station via 5th Ave.

B19: Bay Ridge Ave/71st St to Bergen Beach via Avenue U & Bath Av.

B26: Kingsboro CC to 15th St-Prospect Park via C.I Avenue.

 

Brooklyn RUSH+ Routes:

B90: Sea Gate to Kingsboro Community College

B91: Avenue U/Nostrand Ave to Sea Gate via Coney Island Station.

B93: Gerritsen Beach to Kings Hwy .

 

Thoughts?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I'm not understanding some of your points.

How does the B16 ending at Shore & 86th force subway riders to transfer to the B13 if they can just get off at Bay Ridge Avenue and transfer?

B14: Because since the B13 already serves Shore Road, there's no point in having the B14 also run north or south of that point. I could have it go down 9th Ave, but then that just duplicates service in an area where traffic is already prone to back up.

The B13 runs from 4th & Shore to Avenue V, with some trips alternating at Kings Hwy The B12 runs from DUMBO to Kings Highway.

Unless I misread the comment, didn't someone on here say don't have the B17 running to VA? 

Will do.

Why should they have to endure a longer trip? Ending two bus lines at 86th and Shore Road is just pointless. The current  serves Shore Rd the way it does for a reason.  86th St is a major commercial corridor, with shopping, restaurants, etc. No reason why people on Shore Road should lose that connection. 

Access to hospitals should be kept for obvious reasons.

[Lawrence St]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Why should they have to endure a longer trip? Ending two bus lines at 86th and Shore Road is just pointless. The current  serves Shore Rd the way it does for a reason.  86th St is a major commercial corridor, with shopping, restaurants, etc. No reason why people on Shore Road should lose that connection. 

Access to hospitals should be kept for obvious reasons.

So you want the B14/16 to go down Shore Road?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So you want the B14/16 to go down Shore Road?

I honestly don't see why you have two buses ending at 86th and 4th to begin with, but it is good that you have North of 86th on Shore Road covered. One idea could be to keep the  from Bay Ridge Av down to where you have it on Shore Rd and have the  do with it currently does by having it run down Shore Rd after 86th St. One thing I just noticed is that you don't have a bus on 86th St for most of the route like the current  does. That would not fly. 86th St is a major commercial corridor from about 3rd Av and on going east. Having a bus not take 86th doesn't make sense. You need a bus on Bath Av and one on 86th St. In essence, I'm saying I don't agree with you getting rid of the current  .

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Nothing on 86th Street south/east of 13th Avenue? Good luck trying to sell that, lol.

Also, there's a lot of issues with this map, including large parts of Bensonhurst losing all bus service, and those service being redistributed into services which are heavily duplicative or parallel to others where it's not warranted. Like it doesn't make sense.

Honestly, to me it just seems like it's just redrawing lines on a map for the sake of it. The network isn't perfect in that area at all, but I would question any claim of ridership habits and demands being taken into consideration, if this is (part of) the end result.

Edited April 25, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Nothing on 86th Street south/east of 13th Avenue? Good luck trying to sell that, lol.

Also, there's a lot of issues with this map, including large parts of Bensonhurst losing all bus service, and those service being redistributed into services which are heavily duplicative or parallel to others where it's not warranted. Like it doesn't make sense.

Honestly, to me it just seems like it's just redrawing lines on a map for the sake of it. The network isn't perfect in that area at all, but I would question any claim of ridership habits and demands being taken into consideration, if this is (part of) the end result.

Bensonhurst has a North-South route that operates via 86th St which is why it isn’t shown on there. 

and I did take into consideration the riding habits, this improves connectivity in a lot of areas and reduces redundant service by combining.

[Lawrence St]

Added:

B94: 4th Av/Shore Road to Kingsboro CC via Avenue X, Voorhies Av, and Oriental Blvd.

B94 LTD: 86th St to Kingsboro CC, via C.I Avenue bypass.