Lawrence's Bus Network Redesign

[Lawrence St]

B17: (formerly B70) VA Hospital to 9th Av  Subway Station.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

B17: (formerly B70) VA Hospital to 9th Av  Subway Station.

VA Hospital is not a ridership generator like that to have 3 routes operating through there. I would say that the current B70 ends there because there's no other turnaround in the area. 

Neither that B14 or B16 should be going to the VA hospital. The 86th Street commercial district is much more of a ridership generator, so that B14 should just be going across 86th Street instead of heading all the way down to the VA Hospital. You're not gonna get a lot of riders by doing all that. Same thing with the B16, you're screwing over people headed to 4th & 5th Ave, which is much more than any headed to the VA hospital. 

Also, that B17 is an even worse version of the B70 for several reasons. You're essentially cutting the connection to the and on the northern end, which means you're adding a transfer on the subway end of things. Additionally, neither , , or trains are frequent nor reliable to be adding transfers like that. Then, by straightening the route out on the southern end, you sever the connection to the SI bus routes. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Lex]

Just now, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

VA Hospital is not a ridership generator like that to needs 3 routes operating through there. 

Neither that B14 or B16 should be going to the VA hospital. The 86th Street commercial district is much more of a ridership, so that B14 should just be going across 86th Street instead of heading all the way down to the VA Hospital. You're not gonna get a lot of riders by doing all that. Same thing with the B16, you're screwing over people headed to 4th & 5th Ave, which is much more than any headed to the VA hospital. 

Also, that B17 is an even worse version of the B70 for several reasons. You're essentially cutting the connection to the and on the northern end, which means you're adding a transfer on the subway end of things. Additionally, neither , , or trains are frequent, not reliable, to be adding transfers like that. Then, by straightening the route out on the southern end, well now you sever the connection to the SI bus routes. 

Not to mention that the route around Fort Hamilton Parkway as depicted is literally impossible because of an urban freeway, hence the B70's odd route through that area.

[Lawrence St]

7 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

VA Hospital is not a ridership generator like that to have 3 routes operating through there. I would say that the current B70 ends there because there's no other turnaround in the area. 

Neither that B14 or B16 should be going to the VA hospital. The 86th Street commercial district is much more of a ridership generator, so that B14 should just be going across 86th Street instead of heading all the way down to the VA Hospital. You're not gonna get a lot of riders by doing all that. Same thing with the B16, you're screwing over people headed to 4th & 5th Ave, which is much more than any headed to the VA hospital. 

Also, that B17 is an even worse version of the B70 for several reasons. You're essentially cutting the connection to the and on the northern end, which means you're adding a transfer on the subway end of things. Additionally, neither , , or trains are frequent nor reliable to be adding transfers like that. Then, by straightening the route out on the southern end, you sever the connection to the SI bus routes. 

 

7 hours ago, Lex said:

Not to mention that the route around Fort Hamilton Parkway as depicted is literally impossible because of an urban freeway, hence the B70's odd route through that area.

Surely there has to be a better way to service 59th St station without doing all that unnecessary turning?

[Lex]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

 

Surely there has to be a better way to service 59th St station without doing all that unnecessary turning?

The B70 doesn't serve that station now.

If you're talking about 36th Street, well, you'd have to plow through a cemetery to serve that more directly.

[Lawrence St]

Alright, some changes:

B14/B16 now operate direct across 86th St.

The southern B16 terminal is now at 86th St/Shore Rd with the B14.

The B17's northern terminal has been changed to 36th St , while the southern terminal has been changed to Bay Ridge-95th St via 86th St Station.

B18: (formerly parts of the B8, B63, and B82) Coney Island-Stillwell Av to Bay Ridge-95th St station via 7th Ave,

B18 LTD: Coney Island-Stillwell Av to 36th St  via 5th Av/Cropsey Av (makes limited stops along 5th Av) Rush Hours only. NOTE: The 5th Av corridor will still have the B63, hence why the B18 will make LTD stops.

Thoughts?

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, Lex said:

The B70 doesn't serve that station now.

If you're talking about 36th Street, well, you'd have to plow through a cemetery to serve that more directly.

What about the new routing? (See above)

[BreeddekalbL]

Edit never mind delete please

Edited January 21, 2022 by BreeddekalbL
Past post was on first page pls delete

[Lawrence St]

22 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Edit never mind delete please

??????

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

What about the new routing? (See above)

I probably should've looked earlier, but it's more than just the cemetery. The subway is also in the way.

There's no real need to change that part of the B70.

[BreeddekalbL]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

??????

I posted a question then I realized I asked it before back in beginning of post 

[Lawrence St]

11 hours ago, Lex said:

I probably should've looked earlier, but it's more than just the cemetery. The subway is also in the way.

There's no real need to change that part of the B70.

Which part, the southern or northern end?

[Around the Horn]

On 1/19/2022 at 5:14 PM, Lawrence St said:

How come?

Vehicles are not allowed to pass through Fort Hamilton unless they have business there. It happened after 9/11 as a security measure IINM

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:47 PM, Lawrence St said:

 

Surely there has to be a better way to service 59th St station without doing all that unnecessary turning?

It seems like you are looking to create more problems than solutions with your routes. I think the current B70 makes a lot of sense for a few reasons. For one, there are not that many turns and the ones by Fort Hamilton Parkway is due to the street layout in that area. Second, terminating around Industry City gives Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights access to shopping over there and easy access to anyone that may work there. Not sure if you've been there, but I shop there and it's a huge shopping area filled with all sorts of coffee shops, food options and other shopping, including that huge DWR (Design Within Reach). 

For those that don't want to drive or don't have a car, you have access to nearby Costco and all of the other huge stores there. I go there by car, but I know people that live in Bay Ridge that shop there. I'm sure they go by public transit.

Third, for anyone who needs the VA Hospital in the area, they have access to it. It definitely shouldn't go any further south than that, as the the B8 is sufficient in that part of Dyker and having it terminate by the Army Base definitely makes no sense. lol Folks there by Cropsey are taking the express bus more than anything else, though with the demographics changing, that will change over time. Grew up in Southern Brooklyn and am very familiar with that area. Used to hangout in that part on 86th by the Dyker Beach Golf Course. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It seems like you are looking to create more problems than solutions with your routes. I think the current B70 makes a lot of sense for a few reasons. For one, there are not that many turns and the ones by Fort Hamilton Parkway is due to the street layout in that area. Second, terminating around Industry City gives Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights access to shopping over there and easy access to anyone that may work there. Not sure if you've been there, but I shop there and it's a huge shopping area filled with all sorts of coffee shops, food options and other shopping, including that huge DWR (Design Within Reach). 

For those that don't want to drive or don't have a car, you have access to nearby Costco and all of the other huge stores there. I go there by car, but I know people that live in Bay Ridge that shop there. I'm sure they go by public transit.

Third, for anyone who needs the VA Hospital in the area, they have access to it. It definitely shouldn't go any further south than that, as the the B8 is sufficient in that part of Dyker and having it terminate by the Army Base definitely makes no sense. lol Folks there by Cropsey are taking the express bus more than anything else, though with the demographics changing, that will change over time. Grew up in Southern Brooklyn and am very familiar with that area. Used to hangout in that part on 86th by the Dyker Beach Golf Course. 

The problem I'm having with his proposals & this thread in general is that he's taking the mapping/illustrating of these proposals more seriously than he is the quality of the proposals themselves.... He's going to deny it, but his lack of reciprocal feedback and/or discussion throughout this thread is evident of that... He just wants to draw shit (his prerogative if it is)....

On 1/21/2022 at 4:47 AM, Lex said:

The B70 doesn't serve that station now.

If you're talking about 36th Street, well, you'd have to plow through a cemetery to serve that more directly.

I'd argue that the B70 should terminate at 36th st. subway itself, if not for running as far west as 3rd... Leave that jank terminal area over there at 1st av for the B35....

It's f***ed up, but I have seen B70's on multiple occasions layover either along 3rd av (NB direction/side) or along 37th st midblock, to eventually start at 4th, right by the McDonalds... I've seen B70's fill up with schoolkids & those light industrial/factory workers (mainly women) at that stop, so that is a relatively popular stop on the route, but still....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The problem I'm having with his proposals & this thread in general is that he's taking the mapping/illustrating of these proposals more seriously than he is the quality of the proposals themselves.... He's going to deny it, but his lack of reciprocal feedback and/or discussion throughout this thread is evident of that... He just wants to draw shit (his prerogative if it is)....

Well it's a recurring theme in this forum where you have people proposing this and that, but they don't understand the ridership patterns, nor why the buses run the way that they do. Lawrence and I have discussed some other proposals he wanted to do on the side for a few express bus lines he wanted to run some months ago, and to be honest, I didn't think they made much sense. Too many stops in some areas and too much meandering, and then too few stops in other areas. Personally I see no major issues with the B70. It's short and fairly direct, and the turns that it does make provide connectivity, either to places of employment, hospitals or other important bus lines such as the Staten Island local buses by 92nd St. These are all things that are no-brainers to me.  

The line has a balance of serving multiple needs, being as direct as possible where possible and hitting the main spots.  His route focuses too much on the subway connection in the Northern section of the route and too much on serving the Southern section, and if anything, it should be the reverse.  The Southern section is less dense and consists more so of residents that tend to drive, BUT with the VA Hospital there, you want to have frequent access, not necessarily because it's super busy, but it's a hospital. There will always be people riding, either to work there or as patients and so on.  The Northern section of the route is more dense and consists of a more immigrant population that either doesn't drive for one reason or another and are more dependent on the B70, so you want to maintain those connections to Industry City esp. It's kind of isolated despite having a nearby subway, hence why I go by car or I take the express bus to Bay Ridge and hop in an Uber to and from.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The problem I'm having with his proposals & this thread in general is that he's taking the mapping/illustrating of these proposals more seriously than he is the quality of the proposals themselves.... He's going to deny it, but his lack of reciprocal feedback and/or discussion throughout this thread is evident of that... He just wants to draw shit (his prerogative if it is)....

I'd argue that the B70 should terminate at 36th st. subway itself, if not for running as far west as 3rd... Leave that jank terminal area over there at 1st av for the B35....

It's f***ed up, but I have seen B70's on multiple occasions layover either along 3rd av (NB direction/side) or along 37th st midblock, to eventually start at 4th, right by the McDonalds... I've seen B70's fill up with schoolkids & those light industrial/factory workers (mainly women) at that stop, so that is a relatively popular stop on the route, but still....

I’m not doing this just to draw stuff, I’m actually looking for feedback. Only a few people ever actually comment and I take that as “ok, this idea is fine”.

If you have suggestions with the current new routes I planned out so far, please let me hear it.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I’m not doing this just to draw stuff, I’m actually looking for feedback. Only a few people ever actually comment and I take that as “ok, this idea is fine”.

If you have suggestions with the current new routes I planned out so far, please let me hear it.

The irony is that the brief (or even non) responses that you give the few people that have commented on your proposals, are construed as you not giving much of a damn about the feedback you do receive - even if you do alter your maps to reflect what's been said by others.... This is why I believe you're looking to simply draw stuff, because you're not being all that vocal about the feedback you get - regardless if you agree or disagree with it... You have been in these spaces long enough to realize that silence, large in part, is not an acceptance of any proposal; most of the time silence = indifference around here....

You need to have a good enough understanding of how buses are used in the current network, before you can go about proposing improvements to it.... You can choose to blow this off or otherwise ignore this, but that's a large part of the problem here.... It's not like you're composing an entire network from scratch, so the difficulty level (or at the very least, how in-depth you'd need to be) isn't remotely there.....

Posting incomplete multiple map snippets (as in, just drawing your ideas/altered ideas & omitting the current routes that you wouldn't change from these maps) doesn't give readers a clear idea of how your proposals would mesh into the current network....

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The irony is that the brief (or even non) responses that you give the few people that have commented on your proposals, are construed as you not giving much of a damn about the feedback you do receive - even if you do alter your maps to reflect what's been said by others.... This is why I believe you're looking to simply draw stuff, because you're not being all that vocal about the feedback you get - regardless if you agree or disagree with it... You have been in these spaces long enough to realize that silence, large in part, is not an acceptance of any proposal; most of the time silence = indifference around here....

You need to have a good enough understanding of how buses are used in the current network, before you can go about proposing improvements to it.... You can choose to blow this off or otherwise ignore this, but that's a large part of the problem here.... It's not like you're composing an entire network from scratch, so the difficulty level (or at the very least, how in-depth you'd need to be) isn't remotely there.....

Posting incomplete multiple map snippets (as in, just drawing your ideas/altered ideas & omitting the current routes that you wouldn't change from these maps) doesn't give readers a clear idea of how your proposals would mesh into the current network....

Alright so how about this.

Why don't I split the map into 6 quadrants, because if I was to do the whole map at once, and some suggests to change something, that throws some routes off all together.

And if you can, comment on the existing routes I've done so far. Does the B13 work? Does the B16 not?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Lawrence St

[NBTA]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:31 AM, Lawrence St said:

Alright, some changes:

B14/B16 now operate direct across 86th St.

The southern B16 terminal is now at 86th St/Shore Rd with the B14.

The B17's northern terminal has been changed to 36th St , while the southern terminal has been changed to Bay Ridge-95th St via 86th St Station.

B18: (formerly parts of the B8, B63, and B82) Coney Island-Stillwell Av to Bay Ridge-95th St station via 7th Ave,

B18 LTD: Coney Island-Stillwell Av to 36th St  via 5th Av/Cropsey Av (makes limited stops along 5th Av) Rush Hours only. NOTE: The 5th Av corridor will still have the B63, hence why the B18 will make LTD stops.

Thoughts?

You can split the B18 and the Limited into two different lines. 

The B14 can be extended further east to Lefferts Gardens.

The 12/13 can be extended further as well. 

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

You can split the B18 and the Limited into two different lines. 

The B14 can be extended further east to Lefferts Gardens.

The 12/13 can be extended further as well. 

You are aware the B12 ends at DUMBO right? Extending it any further east would cause reliability issues. 

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

You are aware the B12 ends at DUMBO right? Extending it any further east would cause reliability issues. 

If the B12 is basically the present-day B67 (minus Navy Yard) then it definitely shouldn't go anywhere past Borough Park.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Might as well extend everything... A hot mess...

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Might as well extend everything... A hot mess...

Since you know everything, why don’t you give me an idea?

 

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

If the B12 is basically the present-day B67 (minus Navy Yard) then it definitely shouldn't go anywhere past Borough Park.

Well the B67 is a long route to begin with. I was thinking of turning it at Atlantic Av.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Since you know everything, why don’t you give me an idea?

Not about what I know. When you propose something, you should state why. You're recreating the Brooklyn network with no background data to support these changes, and worst off, you're trying to do segments of it when the network should be representative of the entire borough.  For example, truncating the B14 to 86th & Shore Rd would force people along and near Shore Road to have to make an additional transfer to reach the 86th St subway station and anything else east of Shore Road. That's a terrible idea that would make their commutes even longer.  The current B16 provides the connections that those folks need, as it is a long walk from Shore Road to points east depending on where on Shore Road you are. 

I considered a place on Shore Road years ago when I wanted to move back to Brooklyn, but the parking situation was and still is atrocious, as were the transit options (at that time the X27 was not running on weekends), and the B16 runs so infrequently that you can get an express bus quicker than that local bus line.

You've also managed to sever the southern connection between Bath Beach, Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights, which the B64 currently provides. It's no secret that these neighborhoods have been connected historically for a number of reasons. For starters, folks in Dyker often times go to Bay Ridge for shopping, dining, etc. 

I also don't understand why you have that B14 or whatever that is running one way along 13th Avenue? 13th Avenue is a major commercial strip in the heart of Dyker Heights, which serves a number of businesses there. It's a no-brainer to have a local bus running along 13th Avenue in both directions, which the current B64 does well based on the segment of 13th Av it serves.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8