Port Washington Midday Skip-Stop

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Don’t forget the holiday train show. Metro North should definitely add service to that station during an event like that since the trains get packed. NWP trips operate half hourly most of the time with one train stopping at all stops in the Bronx while the other just stops at Fordham. The other should definitely make a stop at Botanical Garden imo so service is half-hourly.

I used to use those express trains to North White Plains from Fordham. That's an example of where you want some sort of express service for your riders going to Westchester. They are paying the highest fees, traveling the furthest and should have some express service. The solution if anything is to have more local train service to ensure that Botanical Garden is adequately served during that time period. Perhaps special holiday trains even. There was a train I used to get during rush hour pre-COVID that I think terminated within the Bronx to allow for express service to Westchester and address any overcrowding.

Speaking of overcrowding, I was coming from Westchester and on the Harlem Line. The train was so crowded that I could not get out at Woodlawn. I was pretty pissed. I had to get off at Fordham instead.

[paulrivera]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Don’t forget the holiday train show. Metro North should definitely add service to that station during an event like that since the trains get packed. NWP trips operate half hourly most of the time with one train stopping at all stops in the Bronx while the other just stops at Fordham. The other should definitely make a stop at Botanical Garden imo so service is half-hourly.

They don't really do that anymore, all the daytime local trains make all stops in the Bronx now. Even when the trains are running every 30 minutes, every local train outside of rush hours and the early evening makes every single stop.

The only tradeoff for now is that every other train on the weekends is turning around at Crestwood, but afaik that has more to do with ROW and station improvements than a low ridership situation.

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There was a train I used to get during rush hour pre-COVID that I think terminated within the Bronx to allow for express service to Westchester and address any overcrowding.

Speaking of overcrowding, I was coming from Westchester and on the Harlem Line. The train was so crowded that I could not get out at Woodlawn. I was pretty pissed. I had to get off at Fordham instead.

Yea, that train terminated just over the border at Mount Vernon West. They just brought that train back within the last month or two.

As for the overcrowding, I don't know why they're still running hourly service during the weekday midday hours at this point. Hopefully in the summer they'll get around to bringing back 30 minute midday frequencies.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, paulrivera said:

They don't really do that anymore, all the daytime local trains make all stops in the Bronx now. Even when the trains are running every 30 minutes, every local train outside of rush hours and the early evening makes every single stop.

The only tradeoff for now is that every other train on the weekends is turning around at Crestwood, but afaik that has more to do with ROW and station improvements than a low ridership situation.

Yea, that train terminated just over the border at Mount Vernon West. They just brought that train back within the last month or two.

As for the overcrowding, I don't know why they're still running hourly service during the weekday midday hours at this point. Hopefully in the summer they'll get around to bringing back 30 minute midday frequencies.

Yes Mount Vernon West is the one, just over the border. Good for them. I've been saying that I want to take Metro-North again for leisure trips into Westchester.

[4 via Mosholu]

2 hours ago, paulrivera said:

They don't really do that anymore, all the daytime local trains make all stops in the Bronx now. Even when the trains are running every 30 minutes, every local train outside of rush hours and the early evening makes every single stop.

The only tradeoff for now is that every other train on the weekends is turning around at Crestwood, but afaik that has more to do with ROW and station improvements than a low ridership situation.

I thought I remembered that the 562 out of North White Plains was a semi from 190 to 125 and 42. There was also the 4355 out of 42 that was a semi express after 125 to 233 before making all stops from there.

[bobtehpanda]

On 4/23/2022 at 7:00 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

It comes down to revenue as well. If those stations saw more ridership, it would be easier to justify having more trains run at them. I can say firsthand that I have used some stations that receive little service and often times, I was the only one getting on there, so it's kind of a situation where if they're going to run more service, there needs to be enough riders to justify stopping there. The fares have decreased at stops in the City, while they remained relatively high going to the suburbs, so naturally there are going to be more express trains since that's where the revenue is. 

To be clear, I have no issue with increased service at any station if it is justified. I'm simply stating how they operate and why since the question was why they provide the service that they currently do. Again, if  @Gotham Bus Co feels so strongly about it, he should write the  (the LIRR) and his elected officials, otherwise nothing is going to change.

But also ridership is a function of frequency as well; a station is less useful if only half the trains stop there.

On 4/24/2022 at 7:12 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

How is parking at Broadway or Auburndale though?

The same as at Bayside, which is to say there isn't really parking.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

1. But also ridership is a function of frequency as well; a station is less useful if only half the trains stop there.

2. The same as at Bayside, which is to say there isn't really parking.

1. That is true, but so is accessibility and the cost. We know that the cost has been lowered, so that leaves accessibility and frequency. At $5.00, I can still see more people option for the $2.75 subway at Flushing, which is easier to reach from Broadway or Auburndale than it is for people in Bayside.

2. I ask because I wanted to see if that station was more accessible as in easier for people to reach it. One of the two stations in my area has very limited parking, but people still use it regularly because the nearest subway is a schlepp.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

16 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

But also ridership is a function of frequency as well; a station is less useful if only half the trains stop there.

 

It's a vicious cycle. Ridership is low at the skipped stations because they are skipped. Some passengers who would have boarded there travel to full-service stations (Bayside or Main Street) instead and add to the numbers that justify full service.

 

[Lil 57]

Talking about the skipping patterns on the Port Washington Branch, why is peak service on the line west of Bayside (and to an extent west of Great Neck) so poor? Frequencies are often less than off peak frequencies with trains often being 45 minutes to an hour apart. Do they want those riders to take the QM3 or something? (Even though the wants to eliminate it in the queens bus redesign)

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Talking about the skipping patterns on the Port Washington Branch, why is peak service on the line west of Bayside (and to an extent west of Great Neck) so poor? Frequencies are often less than off peak frequencies with trains often being 45 minutes to an hour apart. Do they want those riders to take the QM3 or something? (Even though the wants to eliminate it in the queens bus redesign)

LIRR seems to have a imaginary line they draw where they assumed everyone west of that will take the bus to the subway. So in exchange they provide piss poor service, and ridership is crap, then they call themselves a genius for figuring out that indeed, people no one west of that "line" takes the LIRR, when in reality their service is crap

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

LIRR seems to have a imaginary line they draw where they assumed everyone west of that will take the bus to the subway. So in exchange they provide piss poor service, and ridership is crap, then they call themselves a genius for figuring out that indeed, people no one west of that "line" takes the LIRR, when in reality their service is crap

I wouldn't call it an imaginary line though. All they need to do is look at Metrocard swipes vs. LIRR ticket sales to Broadway & Auburndale to see exactly how people travel and the closer to Flushing you get, the more people likely take the subway because it's easier to reach, cheaper and more frequent. It's just common sense. The  runs much more frequently than the LIRR could ever run service just based on an equipment situation. No comparison. Now that doesn't mean that I'm saying that there shouldn't be more service to the stations in question, but my point is the levels of service vs ridership can easily be studied and confirmed and for the most part, the  usually does look at such data.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[bobtehpanda]

14 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Talking about the skipping patterns on the Port Washington Branch, why is peak service on the line west of Bayside (and to an extent west of Great Neck) so poor? Frequencies are often less than off peak frequencies with trains often being 45 minutes to an hour apart. Do they want those riders to take the QM3 or something? (Even though the wants to eliminate it in the queens bus redesign)

So like, to be fair, neither Douglaston or Little Neck have a great parking situation, and they're kind of a pain in the ass to drive or take the bus to, and the stations are located smack dab in the middle of an extremely low density area. which basically just leaves Great Neck.

In general, the MTA does not really do systemic thinking related to its rail network.

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I wouldn't call it an imaginary line though. All they need to do is look at Metrocard swipes vs. LIRR ticket sales to Broadway & Auburndale to see exactly how people travel and the closer to Flushing you get, the more people likely take the subway because it's easier to reach, cheaper and more frequent. It's just common sense. The  runs much more frequently than the LIRR could ever run service just based on an equipment situation. No comparison. Now that doesn't mean that I'm saying that there shouldn't be more service to the stations in question, but my point is the levels of service vs ridership can easily be studied and confirmed and for the most part, the  usually does look at such data.

FWIW the last service plan I saw for ESA, whenever that actually opens, is that PW service will essentially be doubled at all hours of the day with trains alternating between NYP and GCT. Not sure how they plan on treating intermediate stations in that scenario. But they definitely have the equipment available to run that kind of service.

That being said, Bayside is a lot denser, but Broadway wouldn't necessarily be a slouch if some basic things were done (say, have bus fare be included in LIRR rides). Buses already run past Broadway, they're just not dedicated shuttles, and then that way the LIRR also saves money not having to run free shuttles. (Auburndale I'm a little bit less optimistic about, just because the stop is located between and a bit far from two bus corridors.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

29 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

So like, to be fair, neither Douglaston or Little Neck have a great parking situation, and they're kind of a pain in the ass to drive or take the bus to, and the stations are located smack dab in the middle of an extremely low density area. which basically just leaves Great Neck.

In general, the MTA does not really do systemic thinking related to its rail network.

FWIW the last service plan I saw for ESA, whenever that actually opens, is that PW service will essentially be doubled at all hours of the day with trains alternating between NYP and GCT. Not sure how they plan on treating intermediate stations in that scenario. But they definitely have the equipment available to run that kind of service.

That being said, Bayside is a lot denser, but Broadway wouldn't necessarily be a slouch if some basic things were done (say, have bus fare be included in LIRR rides). Buses already run past Broadway, they're just not dedicated shuttles, and then that way the LIRR also saves money not having to run free shuttles. (Auburndale I'm a little bit less optimistic about, just because the stop is located between and a bit far from two bus corridors.)

I don't think you're understanding. They do not have the equipment to run service like a subway line like the . No comparison.  Doubled would be something like four trains an hour one way. The  by comparison runs about 12 trains an hour one way during parts of the day, almost three times as frequent.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't think you're understanding. They do not have the equipment to run service like a subway line like the . No comparison.  Doubled would be something like four trains an hour one way. The  by comparison runs about 12 trains an hour one way during parts of the day, almost three times as frequent.

The subway+bus is so much slower that waiting at most 15 minutes is not a huge deal.
 

Also, I'm pretty sure they were running four trains an hour already during peak pre-COVID. that equipment didn't just all disappear, and the train orders to literally double service on all of the LIRR were made before the pandemic.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The subway+bus is so much slower that waiting at most 15 minutes is not a huge deal.
 

Also, I'm pretty sure they were running four trains an hour already during peak pre-COVID. that equipment didn't just all disappear, and the train orders to literally double service on all of the LIRR were made before the pandemic.

That's all fine and good, but you say this as if people are suddenly going to be running at those stations to take the LIRR. I don't see it. If they were, they would've already been doing it. Even as inconvenient as the bus to the subway may be, it is still cheaper than the LIRR, even with CityTicket, as there is currently no transfer to or from the LIRR.

[Jsunflyguy]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The subway+bus is so much slower that waiting at most 15 minutes is not a huge deal.
 

Also, I'm pretty sure they were running four trains an hour already during peak pre-COVID. that equipment didn't just all disappear, and the train orders to literally double service on all of the LIRR were made before the pandemic.

The PWS branch is 1hr max, so it is still within the transfer window to swipe on the bus and make the turnstile. That said west of Bayside the cost of taking Bus/Subway is about a 10 minute penalty for most of the neighborhoods . So 15 minute service isn't going to attract any rider that actually checks the math, even if the LI was totally fare integrated Bus, Rail, subway still results in a premium fare whereas bus/subway is an internal transfer to any other service in Manhattan. Most riders that cross over are the 'subway unsafe' crowd, not the save 7 minutes in a narrow, hypothetical time window. The Port Wash didn't run 15 minute off peak service and that wouldn't be possible without use of two pocket tracks at Great Neck.

Also the equipment did kind of disappear, M3s are being scrapped and their replacements have been not been fulfilled. There were 170 M3s, and 130 M9s, which is why the M3s have to come back for ESA to work until Kawasaki can print more trains.

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jsunflyguy

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 4/30/2022 at 2:55 PM, bobtehpanda said:

So like, to be fair, neither Douglaston or Little Neck have a great parking situation, and they're kind of a pain in the ass to drive or take the bus to, and the stations are located smack dab in the middle of an extremely low density area.

Yet they get more weekday service than Auburndale, Broadway, or Murray Hill.

 

 

On 4/30/2022 at 2:55 PM, bobtehpanda said:

FWIW the last service plan I saw for ESA, whenever that actually opens, is that PW service will essentially be doubled at all hours of the day with trains alternating between NYP and GCT. Not sure how they plan on treating intermediate stations in that scenario. 

 

LIRR's response to my complaint mentioned "infrastructure constraints along the branch due to the single track which exists between Great Neck and Port Washington." Those same constraints will still exist under ESA, so that service can never be increased. Instead, service will probably be cut in half, leaving headways of 80 minutes (peak) and 60 minutes (off-peak) to each Manhattan terminal.

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

LIRR's response to my complaint mentioned "infrastructure constraints along the branch due to the single track which exists between Great Neck and Port Washington." Those same constraints will still exist under ESA, so that service can never be increased. Instead, service will probably be cut in half, leaving headways of 80 minutes (peak) and 60 minutes (off-peak) to each Manhattan terminal.

They are extending a pocket track at Great Neck probably for that reason. https://patch.com/new-york/portwashington/mta-lirr-port-washington-branch-service-reduced-weekend

[Snowblock]

Don't worry, when they start running trains to Grand Central (alternating between there and Penn every half hour during offpeak), they'll be making all of the stops again.

[Lil 57]

21 hours ago, Snowblock said:

Don't worry, when they start running trains to Grand Central (alternating between there and Penn every half hour during offpeak), they'll be making all of the stops again.

How do you know? Do you have a source?

[Snowblock]

3 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

How do you know? Do you have a source?

Draft for the new LIRR schedules for October.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:22 AM, Snowblock said:

Don't worry, when they start running trains to Grand Central (alternating between there and Penn every half hour during offpeak), they'll be making all of the stops again.

 

But wouldn't full midday service at "lesser" stations (Murray Hill, Broadway, Auburndale) risk hurting the feelings of riders at "better" stations (Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck)? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

But wouldn't full midday service at "lesser" stations (Murray Hill, Broadway, Auburndale) risk hurting the feelings of riders at "better" stations (Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck)? 

Wasn't your complaint about less service at Murray Hill, Broadway and Auburndale? If they're going to provide more trains, then stop making a mountain out of a molehill. 

[N6 Limited]

16 hours ago, Snowblock said:

Draft for the new LIRR schedules for October.

 Is the plan to have cross platform transfers at Jamaica for Grand Central and Penn Station as opposed to Brooklyn and Penn Station?

Are the off peak shuttles to Atlantic Terminal going to be more frequent than every half hour? That would add value to Atlantic ticket. Actually, if they remove through trains from the Hempstead , Far Rockaway  (and Long Beach) lines, then that diminishes the value of Atlantic Ticket.

[Snowblock]

Trains every 20 minutes like clockwork between Jamaica and Flatbush all day (2 shuttles and 1 West Hempstead train every hour). Doesn't look like any attempt will be made to make connections with NYP/GCT/HPA trains. All of those other through trains that used to go to Flatbush will now go to Grand Central.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Snowblock

[Lil 57]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:15 AM, Snowblock said:

Draft for the new LIRR schedules for October.

Is there a link for this?