Subway Performers Sick Of The NYPD's Ignorance

[Q113 LTD]

A couple dozen subway performers gathered at the Metropolitan Avenue subway station in Williamsburg yesterday to protest what they say is illegal harassment by the NYPD. Gathered steps from an NYPD station house on the mezzanine level, performers, activists, and two NYC Councilmembers implored the NYPD to educate officers on the 's rules of conduct, which does in fact permit "artistic performances."

"We're not asking for the laws to be changed here," Councilmember Steve Levin said. "The existing law is here to protect us. If this is 'broken windows,' I want no part of it." Levin also revealed that he tried to be a subway performer many years ago, before beginning his life as a public servant. "Nothing is more New York than our street performers. This is New York culture. To deny that is to deny who we are as New Yorkers."

The rally was organized after the arrest of guitarist Andrew Kalleen over the weekend at the same subway station. Kalleen was performing on the platform when an officer ordered him to disperse. Their ensuing debate was captured on video, and shows the officer reading the 's rules of conduct out loud, including the part that states that artistic performances of this nature are permitted. Then he arrests Kalleen anyway......

Want to read more, here's the link: http://gothamist.com/2014/10/22/subway_performers_sick_of_the_nypds.php

[Tokkemon]

As much as I try to sympathize with musicians because I am one, the last thing I want in my commute is a battery of African Drums breaking my earlobes at Atlantic-Barclays at 9AM!! Why should I care when most of the time they either suck at their instrument and/or are incredibly obnoxious with them? 

BTW, resisting arrest and protesting a police officer is reason enough for an arrest. 

And the guy in the video is incredibly cocky and a bad singer. Why should I sympathize?

[peacemak3r]

He wasn't cocky at all, he had the cop read the rules which clearly stated he was allowed to. I had some cops disagree with what that cop did, but eh.

 

It's funny that you mention these musical performances at Atlantic-Barclays at 9AM, I mean I've taken my fair share of trains from that station during my BMCC days and I've never seen a musical performance there at that time.

 

Furthermore, you want obnoxious? "Railfanners" that demand people to move out the way for a shot...like really? Double standards if you ask me.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The problem isn't the NYPD, but the . The has one set of rules, but the STATE law probably can supersede the 's laws. 

 

 

 

 

The MTA does not issue permits, and the rules the officer read aloud are accurate. MTA rules, however, differ from state law, which says entertainers can be arrested for loitering in a transportation facility unless they were specifically authorized to be there.

 

 Source: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10/21/nypd-looking-into-arrest-of-subway-performer-in-williamsburg-after-video-goes-viral/

[Kamen Rider]

The one thing I've always felt in these situations is this;

 

The primary purpose of the subway, the reason it was built, is to transport people from Point A to Point B. It was not build to give someone with a fender and a few hours lessons a captive audience. If anything you are doing is disruptive to that purpose, you should not be in the subway system.

 

If your instrument is bigger than you are, and you are not alone, you should not be in the subway system.

 

If whatever you are doing takes up a significant amount of space on trains or platforms, space that could otherwise be used to move people (IE those SHOWTIME kids) you should not be in the subway system.

 

-------------------------------------

Now, another point, if the person in question was just playing, then we move onto the MTA rules vs state law argument. But if he had his case open for people to throw money in, That can be construed as Panhandling or begging and that is not permitted. I though we had "Music Under New York" for a reason....

[SubwayGuy]

Upset because they've got to find something else to do because the NYPD is threatening their "livelihood" which I'd venture a guess certainly doesn't involve reporting income as taxes...

 

The majority of people are sick of this nonsense. The subway exists to move people not force someone to listen to your crap.

 

Being in a station with a permit from Arts for Transit is one thing, but anyone that gets ticketed for "performing" on a train absolutely deserves it.

 

Anyone who touches (the freak show on the L with the dolls) or threatens to touch (ie showtime) any commuter deserves to be arrested on the spot.

[46Dover]

I agree. it's more a safety issue than anything else. As many 12-9s happening already, with the compressed area of the subways and their platform stations, people need as much space as possible. What makes these guys so good that they can't be on the surface streets doing their thing where they have lots of airspace. Or they get with MTA Arts for Transit and get a setup on the mezzanines?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree. it's more a safety issue than anything else. As many 12-9s happening already, with the compressed area of the subways and their platform stations, people need as much space as possible. What makes these guys so good that they can't be on the surface streets doing their thing where they have lots of airspace. Or they get with MTA Arts for Transit and get a setup on the mezzanines?

That's precisely the thing though.  They don't want to be on surface streets, because there people have an easier time being able to ignore them.  They purposely ride the train for example because you can't move to another car and you're forced to hear them play their crap, so they know exactly what they're doing, and luckily the rules can be overruled by STATE law to stop them from doing this nonsense.  As Subway Guy said, most people are sick of these performers.  The main people that are "captivated" by it are tourists who don't know any better who want the so-called "New York experience", but it gets old when it happens on a daily basis. I avoid it entirely now by just taking the local trains.

[Q113 LTD]

That's precisely the thing though.  They don't want to be on surface streets, because there people have an easier time being able to ignore them.  They purposely ride the train for example because you can't move to another car and you're forced to hear them play their crap, so they know exactly what they're doing, and luckily the rules can be overruled by STATE law to stop them from doing this nonsense.  As Subway Guy said, most people are sick of these performers.  The main people that are "captivated" by it are tourists who don't know any better who want the so-called "New York experience", but it gets old when it happens on a daily basis. I avoid it entirely now by just taking the local trains.

Taking the train everyday hearing performers are annoying. Especially if there is a group doing dangerous flips and other crap. Glad that I have my mp3 because if they start performing, I just quickly take out my mp3 so I don't have to hear them. I don't pay no attention to them.

[SubwayGuy]

I think it's high time that instead of the MTA advertising the progress it's making putting GPS on buses, or rebuilding stations, switches, or adding wifi...that they go back to some of the things they did in the mid 90s and post more notices telling people not to give to panhandlers and performers, and do it in a way that's funny, but also tells people their rights.

 

A photo of someone nearly getting kicked and a direct message such as "What time is it? Time to stop giving away your hard earned money" with an explanatory paragraph explaining that what is being done is illegal and reckless endangerment would be one good one.

 

This one from a different system would be effective if adapted for the subway:

 

 

The best way to discourage this activity is to make it an unprofitable timesuck. Attack this two pronged, and you might see more results.

[Quill Depot]

It only makes sense to get him out. He's obviously pan-handling and if he refuses to leave he's open to arrest. I certainly wouldn't want these people on my commute from A to B. He can go sing outside if he wants.

[RollOver]

That's precisely the thing though.  They don't want to be on surface streets, because there people have an easier time being able to ignore them.  They purposely ride the train for example because you can't move to another car and you're forced to hear them play their crap, so they know exactly what they're doing, and luckily the rules can be overruled by STATE law to stop them from doing this nonsense.  As Subway Guy said, most people are sick of these performers.  The main people that are "captivated" by it are tourists who don't know any better who want the so-called "New York experience", but it gets old when it happens on a daily basis. I avoid it entirely now by just taking the local trains.

What about the and ? I rarely ride those lines, so I thought maybe you could tell me if there are any performers on those two lines. As we both know, the R68s and R68As also feature the same thing like the R46s do (not allowing passengers to move from car to car), not to mention the and also feature one of the longest express runs, especially during rush hours.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What about the and ? I rarely ride those lines, so I thought maybe you could tell me if there are any performers on those two lines. As we both know, the R68s and R68As also feature the same thing like the R46s do (not allowing passengers to move from car to car), not to mention the and also feature one of the longest express runs, especially during rush hours.

I use the and the along Central Park West.  The Showtime folks ALWAYS get on at the very last minute at 59th street just before the doors are about to close so that you can't get off and go to another car.  I find it extremely annoying because it's clear that it's calculated, so that those who want to move to another car can't.  They only do it on the and the from 59th to 125th Northbound and Southbound because that gives them enough time to do their routine and go around the train panhandling making their rounds from one end to the other.  I haven't seen any on the as that is local and the stops are too short to do anything.  What I don't understand is why are the end doors locked on those trains?  If there's an emergency, people are basically stuck in the car with no way out.  I remember years ago when some crazy guy had a knife and was attacking people in the car, they were stuck there until the train reached the station and they could escape.  The should get with it.  It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.  As far as the in Brooklyn, I have never seen Showtime folks or anyone panhandling. Just doesn't happen to my knowledge, and that I've used from Brighton Beach or Sheepshead Bay to Midtown.

 

The other thing about these performers is that they perform during the rush when the trains are packed so now everyone is being forced into areas of the train that already crowded to make way for them to perform.  It just makes an already bad situation worse.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think it's high time that instead of the MTA advertising the progress it's making putting GPS on buses, or rebuilding stations, switches, or adding wifi...that they go back to some of the things they did in the mid 90s and post more notices telling people not to give to panhandlers and performers, and do it in a way that's funny, but also tells people their rights.

 

A photo of someone nearly getting kicked and a direct message such as "What time is it? Time to stop giving away your hard earned money" with an explanatory paragraph explaining that what is being done is illegal and reckless endangerment would be one good one.

 

This one from a different system would be effective if adapted for the subway:

 

 

The best way to discourage this activity is to make it an unprofitable timesuck. Attack this two pronged, and you might see more results.

Well the seems to have taken a neutral stance on all of this talking about they don't know why he was arrested.  They know damn well that they're working WITH the NYPD on these issues, so why not just be honest and say hey we're working with the NYPD to eradicate panhandling and quality of life issues on the subway?  I know for example that the doesn't like the fact that people are being robbed for their iPhones, etc. and want those sorts of issues dealt with by the NYPD, so panhandling wouldn't be any different. I certainly remember the signs up not that long ago in which they were trying to take a tough stance on it too.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

I'm fine with someone sitting in a station mezzanine or other part of the station where people don't need to stand doing their thing. All space on platforms should be kept available for people to stand and wait, these guys can sometimes show up with a whole crew and different instruments and that takes up a lot of space and could lead to something dangerous especially during rush hour.

 

Showtime is a much bigger issue than these guys and their guitars though and that's gotta be taken care of. I don't need to feel like my face is gonna get kicked in when some guy jumps on the pole in front of my seat.

[Andrew]

What many people fail to realize is the fact that if these people who perform in the train end up injuring someone or getting injured themselves, the train crew now has to stop at the next station and wait for an EMS to arrive and in many cases the train is going to have to be discharged at that station. There is an investigation into what happened and the train crew may be taken out of service until the investigation is complete, mind you despite NO fault whatsoever of the train crew. 

 

Anyone who performs on the station platforms also is putting people at risk, you are taking away space for people to stand and wait for the train which in turn clogs the stairways more than it should be which in turn increases the chance for someone to get into an accident by possibly falling down the stairs and/onto the tracks into an oncoming train, which has happened.

 

I have no problems with performers in the mezzanines of stations away from platforms and not on trains.

[itmaybeokay]

I agree. it's more a safety issue than anything else. As many 12-9s happening already, with the compressed area of the subways and their platform stations, people need as much space as possible. What makes these guys so good that they can't be on the surface streets doing their thing where they have lots of airspace. Or they get with MTA Arts for Transit and get a setup on the mezzanines?

while crowding is definitely a factor, it was not a factor in this musicians arrest. It was 1:30 in the am, the station was empty - I was there I watched this happen.

[Kamen Rider]

I would modify that to "Mezzinine if you are in a position to not block heavy foot traffic." If the station Mezzinine is too small and too crowded, they should move. Penn station and GCT mid rush? Out. 161st or Williets point as the game is letting out. Move it.

 

And any manhattan platform for the L.

EVER...

 

There is never enough room around the stairs to/from the Broadway line at Union Square and every time I'm there somebody is always camped right next to the stairs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

while crowding is definitely a factor, it was not a factor in this musicians arrest. It was 1:30 in the am, the station was empty - I was there I watched this happen.

The fact remains that the officer has the discretion in deciding how to handle these situations per state law, not what rules state.

[QM1to6Ave]

while crowding is definitely a factor, it was not a factor in this musicians arrest. It was 1:30 in the am, the station was empty - I was there I watched this happen.

I watched the video of the arrest, and the officer first says he is ejecting the musician from the station.

 

If the guy had left then and there, he would not have been arrested. From what I've read online, a cop can basically eject you from a subway station for almost any reason that might even suggests a bit of danger, just as a store owner can throw someone out of their store for even the smallest disruptive act. 

[46Dover]

I'll never understand why people want to challenge the system. No means No!!!!

[FamousNYLover]

And also Brighton Line Station platforms has no spaces and platform is narrow.

[Kamen Rider]

I'll never understand why people want to challenge the system. No means No!!!!

Some people believe that any rule that so much as inconveniences them is a violation of their rights.

 

Those "religious freedom restoration" acts that were discuses recently in several states was the end result of a gay couple in New Mexico deciding to make an example of a photographer who refused to photograph their wedding on his religious grounds.

 

In this example the issue was on both sides, the left for thinking it's alright to force someone to do something they don't want to for the sake of "equality", no matter how uncomfortable the situation might be for the person in question, and the right for overreacting with unnessiasry legislation.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'll never understand why people want to challenge the system. No means No!!!!

Because everyone feels "entitled" that's why. They have "the right" to play, even when the officer says that they don't...

[AndrewJC]

That's precisely the thing though.  They don't want to be on surface streets, because there people have an easier time being able to ignore them.  They purposely ride the train for example because you can't move to another car and you're forced to hear them play their crap, so they know exactly what they're doing, and luckily the rules can be overruled by STATE law to stop them from doing this nonsense.  As Subway Guy said, most people are sick of these performers.  The main people that are "captivated" by it are tourists who don't know any better who want the so-called "New York experience", but it gets old when it happens on a daily basis. I avoid it entirely now by just taking the local trains.

 

Performances on subway cars are quite explicitly against the rules.

 

There are some restrictions, but performances on platforms and mezzanines are generally fine.

 

The performer in question was on a platform and was not, as far as I know, in violation of any of the other rules. The police officer had no business asking him to leave.

 

I'll never understand why people want to challenge the system. No means No!!!!

 

Because we don't live in a police state, and the police don't get to write the rules.