Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

The problem I have always had with a SI extension from Bay Ridge is that it would be too slow for anything that isn't an SI-Brooklyn trip, at which point you'd basically only be diverting S79 riders, if that. Even an express train down 4th Avenue to St. George would not beat the ferry; you'd essentially need a direct Battery to St.George tunnel to make the travel times pencil out.

[Union Tpke]

If any line to Staten Island should be built, as the above post states it should be from the Battery. As part of my regional rail plan, a slight variation of Alon Levy's I would extend the Harlem Line down Madison Avenue with a stop at 14th Street and a stop at Fulton Street before running directly to Saint George.

[Fresh Pond]

See, this is what I'd prefer too, but people keep hating on the Nassau Street Line.

 

The Montague Tunnel is underused so let's use more of it! If Bay Parkway doesn't want it, then Bay Ridge does!

The did go to 95 St after 9/11. With service suspended and the line being all local (and the going to Coney Island via Sea Beach), the became the longest local in the system. Reliability along the line tanked and service was reinstated about a month layer.

[B46 via Utica]

Okay, well if we're talking about priorities here, it seems that most of us are in agreement that Queens needs more service options. In that case, the to Jamaica–179th Street could be inexpensively implemented as early as Phase III (and would give commuters more confidence in the Second Avenue Subway's worth overall). The only significant cost I can think of is connecting it to the 63rd Street Tunnel, but I believe the SAS spurs have long since been constructed, so it actually shouldn't be too difficult or costly.

 

If it would be reasonably affordable to construct a yard at Bay Ridge–95th Street to feasibly extend the there, then I'm all for it, especially if there are provisions to extend it to Staten Island someday.

None need to construct a yard,the already has two yards taking care of it Jamaica Yard and Coney Island Yard. Back in the day when the went to Astoria this proposal would of been necessary. Edited November 27, 2016 by B46 via Utica

[Porter]

The did go to 95 St after 9/11. With service suspended and the line being all local (and the going to Coney Island via Sea Beach), the became the longest local in the system. Reliability along the line tanked and service was reinstated about a month layer.

 

The unwieldy length is an issue that the would have solved, but it's evidently too difficult to determine a suitable northern terminus for such a line serving Bay Ridge. I'd always imagined that the unused tracks at the Chambers Street station would've provided a perfect northern terminus (the tracks that used to lead to the Manhattan Bridge before they were severed). Apparently, that would cause other problems, so the extension looks more likely.

 

None need to construct a yard,the already has two yards taking care of it Jamaica Yard and Coney Island Yard. Back in the day when the went to Astoria this proposal would of been necessary.

 

And which yard would the use?

[B46 via Utica]

The unwieldy length is an issue that the would have solved, but it's evidently too difficult to determine a suitable northern terminus for such a line serving Bay Ridge. I'd always imagined that the unused tracks at the Chambers Street station would've provided a perfect northern terminus (the tracks that used to lead to the Manhattan Bridge before they were severed). Apparently, that would cause other problems, so the extension looks more likely.

 

 

 

And which yard would the use?

 

It would use the yard it's already using. Coney Island Yard.

[Around the Horn]

It would use the yard it's already using. Coney Island Yard.

 

Exactly. The trips that currently go to/from Gravesend-86 Street would continue to operate. If necessary, you could also increase the number of trains to Gravesend-86 St in the evenings.

[Porter]

What exactly is preventing the from being extended to Bay Ridge? Why hasn't the proposed this already? If the lack of a yard isn't the issue, then what is?

[Union Tpke]

What exactly is preventing the from being extended to Bay Ridge? Why hasn't the proposed this already? If the lack of a yard isn't the issue, then what is?

 

that, and a car shortage

[Caelestor]

The MTA also believes that the Bay Ridge terminal suffers the same constraints as the Astoria Ditmars Blvd, so 10 - 15 tph max.

[Porter]

So if the were to build the yard at Bay Ridge–95th Street (for which there are supposedly provisions), and if they had more cars, there would be no reason not to extend the to Bay Ridge. Great.

[Around the Horn]

The MTA also believes that the Bay Ridge terminal suffers the same constraints as the Astoria Ditmars Blvd, so 10 - 15 tph max.

So then, it would 9 trains and 6 trains in the rush.

[Wallyhorse]

The unwieldy length is an issue that the would have solved, but it's evidently too difficult to determine a suitable northern terminus for such a line serving Bay Ridge. I'd always imagined that the unused tracks at the Chambers Street station would've provided a perfect northern terminus (the tracks that used to lead to the Manhattan Bridge before they were severed). Apparently, that would cause other problems, so the extension looks more likely.

 

 

And which yard would the use?

As noted in the random thoughts thread:

 

 

 

I have suggested loop lines before like that, which probably would be best.

 

The  in this scenario could be just that, a loop line that runs via the tunnel to Manhattan and the Bridge back, stopping at Jay-Metrotech, Court, Broad, Fulton and Chambers going northbound only before returning to Brooklyn via the Manny B going southbound.  This eliminates any grade crossings (aside from a merger with the   and   over the Bridge and the   at DeKalb going southbound in Brooklyn.

 

That said, I noted why you would not likely have a chokepoint with a  relaying at Chambers, given that relay would only take place after a   left Chambers going north and timed to be completed before the next   came in southward.

As I would do that, it would only connect the Brooklyn-bound track from the Nassau Line to the Manny B.  The Manhattan-bound track would NOT have such a connection. 

 

I still think you would NOT have a chokepoint relaying a  at Chambers, since in this format it would be part of a split line with the running from Jamaica Center to 95th Street-Bay Ridge with both lines terminating at Chambers as noted (it would be done so the  would meet up with the in both directions at Chambers and only do its relay there once the has headed northbound to Jamaica Center).  The only exceptions would be a limited number of trains during rush hours that would end and begin at Broad Street (since this  would be limited to 8TPH) and  trains making a yard run would continue in service to Broadway Junction and terminate there.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[Around the Horn]

I still think you would NOT have a chokepoint relaying a  at Chambers, since in this format it would be part of a split line with the running from Jamaica Center to 95th Street-Bay Ridge with both lines terminating at Chambers as noted (it would be done so the  would meet up with the in both directions at Chambers and only do its relay there once the has headed northbound to Jamaica Center).  The only exceptions would be a limited number of trains during rush hours that would end and begin at Broad Street (since this  would be limited to 8TPH) and  trains making a yard run would continue in service to Broadway Junction and terminate there.

But then wouldn't a late delay and back up the ? Then we would be right back to square one with late trains to Bay Ridge?

[Porter]

But then wouldn't a late delay and back up the ? Then we would be right back to square one with late trains to Bay Ridge?

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding his proposal, the only commuters who ought to be taking the in the first place are the ones who are transferring from the terminated . Commuters who enter the system at Chambers Street to take the southward would indeed be held up by a late , but if you were to pretend that only the were running the full trip to Bay Ridge, it would be just as late just the same anyway.

 

In this case, I struggle to see the advantage of a split trip as opposed to extending the to Bay Ridge, but perhaps it's because of better fumigation opportunities and breaks for the train operators.

[Wallyhorse]

Unless I'm misunderstanding his proposal, the only commuters who ought to be taking the in the first place are the ones who are transferring from the terminated . Commuters who enter the system at Chambers Street to take the southward would indeed be held up by a late , but if you were to pretend that only the were running the full trip to Bay Ridge, it would be just as late just the same anyway.

 

In this case, I struggle to see the advantage of a split trip as opposed to extending the to Bay Ridge, but perhaps it's because of better fumigation opportunities and breaks for the train operators.

Not the way I would do it:

 

The would be terminating on the "downtown express" track and relay, coming back on the "uptown express" track.  This is how it was done on weekends at Chambers for a number of years before the went back to running to Broad on weekends.  The ONLY exceptions to this would be a limited number of rush hour trains that would be extended to Broad Street because the / is 12 TPH in rush hours and this  would be a maximum of 8 TPH.

 

Going north from 95th Street, the  would come in on the "uptown local" track and terminate there, where a train would be waiting across the platform for people to continue their trip uptown.  Besides a handful of rush-hour / trains that start at Broad Street, the only exceptions to this would be  trains that would be going to or coming from East New York yard, with only those runs ending or starting at Broadway Junction.  The  would ONLY do its relay AFTER the / has already left Chambers Street going north, using the same track as the going north to relay before coming back and crossing over to the "downtown local" track.

 

Going south from Jamaica Center, excluding a limited number of Broad Street rush-hour runs, the would come in as noted on the "downtown express" track where a  would be waiting on the "downtown local" track.  The would then proceed to 95th Street after passengers from the have transferred (again, this does NOT include a limited number of  trains coming from East New York Yard that begin service at Broadway Junction).

 

Hope that explains it.

[Porter]

I understand how the service would work under ideal conditions, but that doesn't explain what would prevent a late from holding up the or vice versa, since one has to wait for the other to arrive before it launches its trip.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Skipper

[Wallyhorse]

I understand how the service would work under ideal conditions, but that doesn't explain what would prevent a late from holding up the or vice versa, since one has to wait for the other to arrive before it launches its trip.

One or the other might be late, but because of fewer mergers and so forth, it never would be anywhere near as bad as on the since both the / and  would be considerably shorter than the current .

The idea is to have the  be a 24/7 version of the old <R> (including replacing the late-night shuttle) to give riders along Bay RIdge and those along 4th Avenue a second local service that isn't held up nearly as badly as the routinely is.  

[bobtehpanda]

I feel like a broken record saying this, but how big is the Downtown-Bay Ridge market in the first place to justify this?

 

Is the late-night really so unreliable?

[Porter]

I feel like a broken record saying this, but how big is the Downtown-Bay Ridge market in the first place to justify this?

 

Is the late-night really so unreliable?

 

The late-night leaves mountains to be desired. Considering all of the new office and retail space being built in FiDi, along with an increasing population in Bay Ridge (due to being priced out of other neighborhoods), I honestly believe that the (as a rebranded ) will someday prove to be beneficial. Not only that, but the would be a better candidate for a future Staten Island extension than the or , given the more manageable length (at least until a massive tunneling project leading directly to Manhattan is conceived). A yard at Bay Ridge–95th Street wouldn't hurt either.

[Around the Horn]

Unless the K can provide better transfers, I don't see a benefit over the late night now that it goes to Whitehall.

[Porter]

Unless the K can provide better transfers, I don't see a benefit over the late night now that it goes to Whitehall.

 

The would no longer need to reach up to Whitehall Street during late nights if the  were to serve Chambers Street at all times.

 

Now that I think about it, the " to Staten Island" would provide a nice alternative to the Ferry, especially if the destination is Brooklyn. It would be far easier to make that connection than to run a line directly to Manhattan (or even from St. George to Red Hook).

 

So, picture this:

- The Nassau Street Local/Express, originating from Chambers Street, continues south on Fourth Avenue beyond the Bay Ridge–95 Street station.

- It tunnels under the Narrows just north of the Verrazano Bridge and surfaces at the most convenient spot near the bridge approach.

- It turns northwest and runs under New York Avenue / Bay Street until it meets the Clifton Station of the Staten Island Railway, where a free transfer would be available to commuters.

[Around the Horn]

The would no longer need to reach up to Whitehall Street during late nights if the were to serve Chambers Street at all times.

 

Now that I think about it, the " to Staten Island" would provide a nice alternative to the Ferry, especially if the destination is Brooklyn. It would be far easier to make that connection than to run a line directly to Manhattan (or even from St. George to Red Hook).

 

So, picture this:

- The Nassau Street Local/Express, originating from Chambers Street, continues south on Fourth Avenue beyond the Bay Ridge–95 Street station.

- It tunnels under the Narrows just north of the Verrazano Bridge and surfaces at the most convenient spot near the bridge approach.

- It turns northwest and runs under New York Avenue / Bay Street until it meets the Clifton Station of the Staten Island Railway, where a free transfer would be available to commuters.

The ferry is still faster and can carry more people...

[Porter]

The ferry is still faster and can carry more people...

 

I get that, but it's nice to have an alternative just in case, even if only to relieve the ferry. The distance to Manhattan would make a direct connection almost unthinkable, but the closest possible subway connection (which my proposal represents) would be preferable for those going to Brooklyn or further east. Perhaps the current demand doesn't justify it, but it could in the not-too-distant future. Certainly, a direct Staten Island connection would go a long way in justifying Wallyhorse's proposed service to Chambers Street via Fourth Avenue. Oh, and it would be cheaper than the ferry for commuters.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Skipper

[Lance]

@Bobtehpanda: I understand exactly what you mean with that. It's part of the reason why I try to keep all of these ideas locked into this thread. Personally, I don't see the sustained ridership to justify this route's existence. That's the key point that's missing from this argument. It's not about simply filling a train or two per hour. There needs to be a dedicated ridership that's clamoring for a Nassau St - Bay Ridge line.

 

As for the , common complaints are that the line is too slow and the intervals are too large for the route. Late nights have been especially bad due to missed connections, bad scheduling and the overall uselessness of the previous shuttle. However, with the line extended to Whitehall St, removing the two- and three-seat ride for most users and better timing between connections, the should see an improvement in service. While there may still be some room for improvement, I don't think it's bad enough to restore Nassau - Bay Ridge service.

 

@Around the Horn: The only lines that this so-called K line would serve that the currently does not are the and . The doesn't even really count as the runs local during overnight hours. The is also a non-issue unless the riders' destination is somewhere along the Jamaica line in Brooklyn or Queens, but that's outside the scope of this proposed K line anyhow.